Hmm, I just noticed the interaction between the new Kozilek and Necrotic Ooze in Modern. Ooze is a card that is begging to be broken, but hasn't yet - maybe this will finally let such a deck work?
Basically, if you can get Koz and Griselbrand into the yard with an Ooze in play, you are going to have trouble losing in Modern. The real trick is building a shell...
Hmm, I just noticed the interaction between the new Kozilek and Necrotic Ooze in Modern. Ooze is a card that is begging to be broken, but hasn't yet - maybe this will finally let such a deck work?
Basically, if you can get Koz and Griselbrand into the yard with an Ooze in play, you are going to have trouble losing in Modern. The real trick is building a shell...
Strictly as a Tron player, I will not be using him.
The draw doesn't appeal to me, because Newlamog has more impact on the board, which is more valuable.
His counter ability doesn't appeal to me, because my cards often don't match the CMC of the cards my opponent is playing (practically no 3's or 4s)
Exiling two permanents just seems like a much better cast ability, imo.
Seems like that would be bad in all the same matchups that Karn Liberated and All Is Dust are bad, though. I'm assuming if you're casting either Ulamog or Kozilek you've already cast those, right? Unless you just had a bad draw. To get out of a hole, I kind of like Kozilek better: you probably draw some eggs to protect him from Path to Exile, and just attack to kill with him. Menace would be relevant there against a lot of decks. As far as three- and four-drops, if your opponent's playing Splinter Twin, you're probably not getting to your ten-drop anyway.
I see how redundancy is good, but I thought the whole point of the big Eldrazi in Tron was just as a backup plan. So the cast trigger on a 10- drop doing the same thing as the 7- and 8- drop spells seems a little lackluster to me.
Strictly as a Tron player, I will not be using him.
The draw doesn't appeal to me, because Newlamog has more impact on the board, which is more valuable.
His counter ability doesn't appeal to me, because my cards often don't match the CMC of the cards my opponent is playing (practically no 3's or 4s)
Exiling two permanents just seems like a much better cast ability, imo.
Seems like that would be bad in all the same matchups that Karn Liberated and All Is Dust are bad, though. I'm assuming if you're casting either Ulamog or Kozilek you've already cast those, right? Unless you just had a bad draw. To get out of a hole, I kind of like Kozilek better: you probably draw some eggs to protect him from Path to Exile, and just attack to kill with him. Menace would be relevant there against a lot of decks. As far as three- and four-drops, if your opponent's playing Splinter Twin, you're probably not getting to your ten-drop anyway.
I see how redundancy is good, but I thought the whole point of the big Eldrazi in Tron was just as a backup plan. So the cast trigger on a 10- drop doing the same thing as the 7- and 8- drop spells seems a little lackluster to me.
Karn and All is Dust affect the board state. Kozilek here doesn't help me when if I'm losing, as opposed to the other options at my disposal. It's not hard to imagine situations where "Draw 7" is amazing, but I usually want my big spells to keep me alive a turn longer, and all this does is block a guy.
Exile 2 permanents,
Exile 1 permanent,
Sacrifice all colored permanents
or
Draw 0-7 cards.
Karn and All is Dust affect the board state. Kozilek here doesn't help me when if I'm losing, as opposed to the other options at my disposal. It's not hard to imagine situations where "Draw 7" is amazing, but I usually want my big spells to keep me alive a turn longer, and all this does is block a guy.
Exile 2 permanents,
Exile 1 permanent,
Sacrifice all colored permanents
or
Draw 0-7 cards.
I'm saying running the same number of Karns and All Is Dusts either way. So the Eldrazi would really just be to close the game when you've stabilized and haven't found a finisher. I guess I could see, if you're losing and drew into Ulamog he could get rid of a threat, but there's nothing stopping him from eating a Path before you untap with him... at least this replaces itself/protects itself.
But I don't know, I haven't tested with either. I'm still running Emrakul because that's the only one I own. Not very fond because 15 is still a lot of mana, even in Tron.
If the new "eldrazi mana" works like we think it's going to work, kozilek will be a very nice option for tron decks, make no mistake.
Importantly, he gives you another angle on which to control the game. Tron is already pretty good at controlling the board state, with o-stone, ugin, karn, pyroclasm, all is dust (if you still play it- most don't) and emrakul/ulamog at the top end.
What tron sucks at is having any sort of say over what nasty combo spells get cast by your opponent. Storm, ad nauseam, scapeshift, splinter twin, grishoalbrand, amulet bloom, the list goes on of decks which have very little or no real board presence but still win. Kozilek can let you shut them down, fixing (potentially) some of your worst matchups, where cards like ulamog are basically useless.
Only thing we don't have is four-drops. Maybe the deck will morph slightly to accommodate a couple. Can't think off the top of my head which ones would be decent but i suppose swapping 1x oblivion stone for a Perilous Vault wouldn't be horrible.
Let's just hope the new mana works the way we think it does.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
Wotc twitter account spoiled Kozilek and Wastes as a basic land. It called the <> the new colorless symbol. This seemingly supports the camp stating that it will become a '6th color' in that it will allow only colorless mana to pay for it in costs.
If the new "eldrazi mana" works like we think it's going to work, kozilek will be a very nice option for tron decks, make no mistake.
Importantly, he gives you another angle on which to control the game. Tron is already pretty good at controlling the board state, with o-stone, ugin, karn, pyroclasm, all is dust (if you still play it- most don't) and emrakul/ulamog at the top end.
What tron sucks at is having any sort of say over what nasty combo spells get cast by your opponent. Storm, ad nauseam, scapeshift, splinter twin, grishoalbrand, amulet bloom, the list goes on of decks which have very little or no real board presence but still win. Kozilek can let you shut them down, fixing (potentially) some of your worst matchups, where cards like ulamog are basically useless.
That's pretty much what I was thinking, yeah, you said it better than I did. I guess a lot depends on your meta, but I'm mainly worried about shoring up my Burn and Storm matchups, where so many of my draws are dead because those decks don't really play to the board in any meaningful way. In either of those matchups, the majority of games I don't just lose by turn 3-4 I lose when I stabilize at a low life total and struggle to find a finisher before my opponent draws a bolt. That's why this card is so attractive: being in bolt range with this guy out and a total of 16 one-drops in the deck (I'm assuming everyone else is also running 4x Chromatic Sphere, 4x Chromatic Star, 4x Ancient Stirrings, 4x Expedition Map) is not such a big deal.
The only deck I regularly play against where I'd want Ulamog over Kozilek is Fish, mainly because of Aether Vial and boarding into Spreading Seas. Also because it doesn't take much for my opponent to go wide and just attack with way too many creatures, so the extra piece of removal is handy. My meta is very small and a litte budget-oriented, so my experience may be different than many.
Only thing we don't have is four-drops. Maybe the deck will morph slightly to accommodate a couple. Can't think off the top of my head which ones would be decent but i suppose swapping 1x oblivion stone for a Perilous Vault wouldn't be horrible.
What's out there that's scary enough to look for a four-drop? Off the top of my head, the main four-drops we're likely to see across the table are:
Splinter Twin is a concern, I suppose. Past in Flames you could probably just counter about half the things they cast -- though I guess that doesn't matter for the Storm count. Leyline of Sanctity is largely irrelevant (I think the only thing that targets players is Karn Liberated?) and probably wouldn't be sided in anyway, Siege Rhino is outclassed by Kozilek himself unleess you're in bolt range, and Cryptic Command would probably represent them moving to the defensive. None of these seem really scary, so unless there were a really good four-drop artifact that could be swapped in, I think it's okay... there could be something I'm missing though.
----- EDIT TO ADD -----
Just for fun, here's some possible options, though:
And of course Perilous Vault as mentioned above. None of those options seem particularly appealing; I hadn't realized the Cap had been reprinted, but it's probably too slow, the way things go these days. Probably the only thing in there I'd consider playing with would be Witchbane Orb, mainly because of Burn/Storm. Problem is, on the draw you can be dead against those decks turn 4.. :/
Thinking about standard, both Ulamog and Kozilek will win the vast majority of games when they're cast, so I'm trying to come up with scenarios where one of them won't. Here are two:
1.) You're getting attacked to death next turn, Kozilek does nothing.
2.) Infinite Obliteration is played against you, one or the other does nothing.
So I think the end result will be a 3/1 Ulamog/Kozilek split, unless there are other scenarios I'm missing. Drawing to 7 and exiling two permenents should both let you reload sufficiently after a counterspell, IMO.
Kozilek could be a finisher for esper control decks. The problem I see is there are many other finishers for esper control and this would be a one of in the deck. Ramp decks are his rightful home, but reanimator may be where he shines the most. Yes you dont get the draw trigger, but you do get a ginormous evasive beatstick that with the right hand, can protect himself at all times. And since its an ability countering the spells there is little chance for any of that 'counter war' shenanniganry. How many chances does your opponent have to kill Kozilek before you kill him with it? Once you untap and can clear the field of chumps with a card like radiant flames or languish you can put a serious clock on your opponent. Most removal will be in the 2-4 mana range and if you are actually playing counterspells your chances get even better of protecting him. Negate and Dispel combined with his ability should suffice to keep Kozzy around long enough to wrap the game up.
Newlamog:
-Auto 2-for-1 even if countered
-Pretty much only dies to exile
-Can win the game in 2-3 attacks by itself, doesnt even need to connect
Kozilek:
-Draw anywhere from 1 to 7 cards on cast even if countered
-Counter ability is quite nice but also relies a little on variance, which is much higher in standard/modern
-Dies to pretty much any black/white removal
-Much slower as a finisher even with menace, dies to creature+creature with deathtouch for example
I feel like i like Kozilek better in EDH/legacy environment than modern/standard. although removal has become pretty meager in standard so he could certainly be a powerhouse there.
but when you have 8-10 mana, you're probably gonna tap out to drop either, and you can maybe counter removal but Ulie helps right now taking out 2 threats that might be swinging next turn.
comparatively they are different situation beatsticks. Ulie kills 2 ways vs. Kozi can fill your hand being a supportive club.
im gonna try 1 of each in standard eldrazi ramp but having both in main is 1 too many
Thinking about standard, both Ulamog and Kozilek will win the vast majority of games when they're cast, so I'm trying to come up with scenarios where one of them won't. Here are two:
1.) You're getting attacked to death next turn, Kozilek does nothing.
2.) Infinite Obliteration is played against you, one or the other does nothing.
So I think the end result will be a 3/1 Ulamog/Kozilek split, unless there are other scenarios I'm missing. Drawing to 7 and exiling two permenents should both let you reload sufficiently after a counterspell, IMO.
A third scenario is Ulamog, The Ceaseless Hunger eats a removal spell while you're tapped out. Even if you exile two lands to cut your opponent off of resources, depending on how late in the game it is it could be very easy to drop an Utter End or Foul-Tongue Invocation and just carry on with the game. Kozilek protects himself in a slightly different way, by giving you the option to counter removal while you're tapped out. So I think the decision is very meta-dependent. I still think a split is probably a good thing, but a lot depends on the type of deck you're playing and the types you expect to face.
Thinking about standard, both Ulamog and Kozilek will win the vast majority of games when they're cast, so I'm trying to come up with scenarios where one of them won't. Here are two:
1.) You're getting attacked to death next turn, Kozilek does nothing.
2.) Infinite Obliteration is played against you, one or the other does nothing.
So I think the end result will be a 3/1 Ulamog/Kozilek split, unless there are other scenarios I'm missing. Drawing to 7 and exiling two permenents should both let you reload sufficiently after a counterspell, IMO.
A third scenario is Ulamog, The Ceaseless Hunger eats a removal spell while you're tapped out. Even if you exile two lands to cut your opponent off of resources, depending on how late in the game it is it could be very easy to drop an Utter End or Foul-Tongue Invocation and just carry on with the game. Kozilek protects himself in a slightly different way, by giving you the option to counter removal while you're tapped out. So I think the decision is very meta-dependent. I still think a split is probably a good thing, but a lot depends on the type of deck you're playing and the types you expect to face.
That's true, but my experience with the deck has been that once you cast the first finisher, you can use Sylvan Scrying + Sanctum of Ugin to queue up another one, so they have to beat you the turn you cast it. It's possible they have something like topdecked Mantis Rider that Kozilek would just counter, but that scenario seems more fringe than the other two.
If there was more reach in standard, like Lava Axe variants and whatnot, then a better case would be made for Kozilek.
I think there is something to be said for ramp cards like nissa's pilgrimage going from dead draws to counterspells for foul toung invocation and crackling doom, that two easiest ways to kill either titan, also ruinous path which is the main removal spell that only hits kozi.
After you ramp, the major ramp spells are at the main converted mana costs you need to protect your finiaher. 2 3 and 4
Ulamog, the chaseless hunger
Kozilek, the great distorion
Emrakul, the promised end
All of them are all eternally playable. Both of them are most likely going to end the game a turn after they hit play. I think that most of the time you would want Ulamog over Kozilek or Emrakul, the promised end. All of them have different uses and in all honesty there is no bad Choice out of the three of titans. But all of them 100% Get better with alittle fast mana either with Guides, Tron Lands, Cloudpost lands or just a more casual build with Eldrazi Scions and Spawn
Kozilek 2.0 is so laughably bad he really only seems to have been printed in service of C mana, to give us a dramatic storyline event and basically no other reason. Its counterspell ability is pretty much the poster child for 'variance' to the point of being nearly useless. In fact, he's generally way less exciting than many of the smallermembers of his tribe.
His low price tag reflects these realities and is completely justified. So yes, they're all big dumb 10/10 game-enders (I don't want to overlook that he also has Menace..that's good), on some level, but I think there is definitely a 'bad choice' here. Sorry.
The draw doesn't appeal to me, because Newlamog has more impact on the board, which is more valuable.
His counter ability doesn't appeal to me, because my cards often don't match the CMC of the cards my opponent is playing (practically no 3's or 4s)
Exiling two permanents just seems like a much better cast ability, imo.
Basically, if you can get Koz and Griselbrand into the yard with an Ooze in play, you are going to have trouble losing in Modern. The real trick is building a shell...
I like where your head is at, I'm thinking b/r
Modern: WURG Twin
Standard: Mardu Planeswalkers
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/deck-creation-standard/661834-mardu-planeswalker?comment=1
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Seems like that would be bad in all the same matchups that Karn Liberated and All Is Dust are bad, though. I'm assuming if you're casting either Ulamog or Kozilek you've already cast those, right? Unless you just had a bad draw. To get out of a hole, I kind of like Kozilek better: you probably draw some eggs to protect him from Path to Exile, and just attack to kill with him. Menace would be relevant there against a lot of decks. As far as three- and four-drops, if your opponent's playing Splinter Twin, you're probably not getting to your ten-drop anyway.
I see how redundancy is good, but I thought the whole point of the big Eldrazi in Tron was just as a backup plan. So the cast trigger on a 10- drop doing the same thing as the 7- and 8- drop spells seems a little lackluster to me.
Karn and All is Dust affect the board state. Kozilek here doesn't help me when if I'm losing, as opposed to the other options at my disposal. It's not hard to imagine situations where "Draw 7" is amazing, but I usually want my big spells to keep me alive a turn longer, and all this does is block a guy.
Exile 2 permanents,
Exile 1 permanent,
Sacrifice all colored permanents
or
Draw 0-7 cards.
I'm saying running the same number of Karns and All Is Dusts either way. So the Eldrazi would really just be to close the game when you've stabilized and haven't found a finisher. I guess I could see, if you're losing and drew into Ulamog he could get rid of a threat, but there's nothing stopping him from eating a Path before you untap with him... at least this replaces itself/protects itself.
But I don't know, I haven't tested with either. I'm still running Emrakul because that's the only one I own. Not very fond because 15 is still a lot of mana, even in Tron.
Importantly, he gives you another angle on which to control the game. Tron is already pretty good at controlling the board state, with o-stone, ugin, karn, pyroclasm, all is dust (if you still play it- most don't) and emrakul/ulamog at the top end.
What tron sucks at is having any sort of say over what nasty combo spells get cast by your opponent. Storm, ad nauseam, scapeshift, splinter twin, grishoalbrand, amulet bloom, the list goes on of decks which have very little or no real board presence but still win. Kozilek can let you shut them down, fixing (potentially) some of your worst matchups, where cards like ulamog are basically useless.
Only thing we don't have is four-drops. Maybe the deck will morph slightly to accommodate a couple. Can't think off the top of my head which ones would be decent but i suppose swapping 1x oblivion stone for a Perilous Vault wouldn't be horrible.
Let's just hope the new mana works the way we think it does.
GReki, the History of Kamigawa Legendfall
UGEdric, Spymaster of Trest Drawmaster of Trest | GBGlissa the Traitor A Touch of Death | WBTeysa, Orzhov Scion Spinning in Graves
UWIsperia, Supreme Judge A Riddles of Sphinxes | RG Mena and Denn, Wildborn Beware Falling Rocks | GWSigarda, Host of Hurons The Enchantress
WRGRith the Awakener Superfriendly Tokens
That's pretty much what I was thinking, yeah, you said it better than I did. I guess a lot depends on your meta, but I'm mainly worried about shoring up my Burn and Storm matchups, where so many of my draws are dead because those decks don't really play to the board in any meaningful way. In either of those matchups, the majority of games I don't just lose by turn 3-4 I lose when I stabilize at a low life total and struggle to find a finisher before my opponent draws a bolt. That's why this card is so attractive: being in bolt range with this guy out and a total of 16 one-drops in the deck (I'm assuming everyone else is also running 4x Chromatic Sphere, 4x Chromatic Star, 4x Ancient Stirrings, 4x Expedition Map) is not such a big deal.
The only deck I regularly play against where I'd want Ulamog over Kozilek is Fish, mainly because of Aether Vial and boarding into Spreading Seas. Also because it doesn't take much for my opponent to go wide and just attack with way too many creatures, so the extra piece of removal is handy. My meta is very small and a litte budget-oriented, so my experience may be different than many.
What's out there that's scary enough to look for a four-drop? Off the top of my head, the main four-drops we're likely to see across the table are:
Splinter Twin
Past in Flames
Leyline of Sanctity
Siege Rhino
Cryptic Command
Splinter Twin is a concern, I suppose. Past in Flames you could probably just counter about half the things they cast -- though I guess that doesn't matter for the Storm count. Leyline of Sanctity is largely irrelevant (I think the only thing that targets players is Karn Liberated?) and probably wouldn't be sided in anyway, Siege Rhino is outclassed by Kozilek himself unleess you're in bolt range, and Cryptic Command would probably represent them moving to the defensive. None of these seem really scary, so unless there were a really good four-drop artifact that could be swapped in, I think it's okay... there could be something I'm missing though.
----- EDIT TO ADD -----
Just for fun, here's some possible options, though:
More Mana/Land Drops
Hedron Archive
Krark-Clan Ironworks
Oracle of Mul Daya
From Beyond
Into the Wilds
Upwelling
Sideboard v. Burn
Witchbane Orb
Tree of Redemption
Sideboard v. Combo
Jester's Cap
And of course Perilous Vault as mentioned above. None of those options seem particularly appealing; I hadn't realized the Cap had been reprinted, but it's probably too slow, the way things go these days. Probably the only thing in there I'd consider playing with would be Witchbane Orb, mainly because of Burn/Storm. Problem is, on the draw you can be dead against those decks turn 4.. :/
if my opponent plays a Pact (CMC of zero) can i counter it by discarding a land?
.....?
kozilek, the great distortion for reference.
I'm not a judge, but that seems legit.
You can transmute Tolaria West to find the pact in the first place, so I don't see why not.
Modern: WURG Twin
Standard: Mardu Planeswalkers
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/deck-creation-standard/661834-mardu-planeswalker?comment=1
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1.) You're getting attacked to death next turn, Kozilek does nothing.
2.) Infinite Obliteration is played against you, one or the other does nothing.
So I think the end result will be a 3/1 Ulamog/Kozilek split, unless there are other scenarios I'm missing. Drawing to 7 and exiling two permenents should both let you reload sufficiently after a counterspell, IMO.
-Auto 2-for-1 even if countered
-Pretty much only dies to exile
-Can win the game in 2-3 attacks by itself, doesnt even need to connect
Kozilek:
-Draw anywhere from 1 to 7 cards on cast even if countered
-Counter ability is quite nice but also relies a little on variance, which is much higher in standard/modern
-Dies to pretty much any black/white removal
-Much slower as a finisher even with menace, dies to creature+creature with deathtouch for example
I feel like i like Kozilek better in EDH/legacy environment than modern/standard. although removal has become pretty meager in standard so he could certainly be a powerhouse there.
comparatively they are different situation beatsticks. Ulie kills 2 ways vs. Kozi can fill your hand being a supportive club.
im gonna try 1 of each in standard eldrazi ramp but having both in main is 1 too many
A third scenario is Ulamog, The Ceaseless Hunger eats a removal spell while you're tapped out. Even if you exile two lands to cut your opponent off of resources, depending on how late in the game it is it could be very easy to drop an Utter End or Foul-Tongue Invocation and just carry on with the game. Kozilek protects himself in a slightly different way, by giving you the option to counter removal while you're tapped out. So I think the decision is very meta-dependent. I still think a split is probably a good thing, but a lot depends on the type of deck you're playing and the types you expect to face.
That's true, but my experience with the deck has been that once you cast the first finisher, you can use Sylvan Scrying + Sanctum of Ugin to queue up another one, so they have to beat you the turn you cast it. It's possible they have something like topdecked Mantis Rider that Kozilek would just counter, but that scenario seems more fringe than the other two.
If there was more reach in standard, like Lava Axe variants and whatnot, then a better case would be made for Kozilek.
After you ramp, the major ramp spells are at the main converted mana costs you need to protect your finiaher. 2 3 and 4
Modern: WURG Twin
Standard: Mardu Planeswalkers
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/deck-creation-standard/661834-mardu-planeswalker?comment=1
Monthly Proxy Legacy
Charlotte/Greensboro area, NC
Pm me for details
Kozilek, the great distorion
Emrakul, the promised end
All of them are all eternally playable. Both of them are most likely going to end the game a turn after they hit play. I think that most of the time you would want Ulamog over Kozilek or Emrakul, the promised end. All of them have different uses and in all honesty there is no bad Choice out of the three of titans. But all of them 100% Get better with alittle fast mana either with Guides, Tron Lands, Cloudpost lands or just a more casual build with Eldrazi Scions and Spawn
Ulamog 2.0 >> Emrakul 2.0 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kozilek 2.0 (honestly)
Kozilek 2.0 is so laughably bad he really only seems to have been printed in service of C mana, to give us a dramatic storyline event and basically no other reason. Its counterspell ability is pretty much the poster child for 'variance' to the point of being nearly useless. In fact, he's generally way less exciting than many of the smaller members of his tribe.
His low price tag reflects these realities and is completely justified. So yes, they're all big dumb 10/10 game-enders (I don't want to overlook that he also has Menace..that's good), on some level, but I think there is definitely a 'bad choice' here. Sorry.
Also, nice thread necro.
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