So anyone who has read just a few spoiler threads can see everyone's confusion for some of the decisions WotC has made in terms of the cards. We see powered down cards, cards with weird rarities, and above all, barely any constructed playable cards.
Someone created a similar thread before and speculated that all these weirds cards had a purpose, and the cards that have synergy with them to make them work would be spoiler later. While its still possible, as more and more spoilers are given the chances of that seem to diminish.
What are your thoughts? Is BFZ the new Kamigawa? Is there anything OP previously in the format Wizards is trying to curb? Maybe you disagree with me?
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The only card I have any interest in in the set is the new Gideon. I think he might make a break as a 1-of in BW tokens but other then that I think it's generally a strictly limited set. It reminds me a lot of Rise of Eldrazi in the sense of limited. I'm curious to see how it'll draft but I also agree with you on the constructed point. Pretty damn underwhelming for Modern. Why the fk are the new Eldrazi so lame??
I am so glad I did not buy a fat pack. Heck, I don't really regret going to a pre-release where I can preregister for it for $15. The neutering of green mana and red burn makes me want to puke.
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"Barely any constucted playable cards"? What constructed are you talking about? Because I see cards for modern and potentially legacy. they cannot print too many legacy-playable cards each set because that would mean they would need to steadily increase the power and we have the powercreep people seems to dislike.
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I think battle for zendikar is exactly that. Nothing less, nothing more. A set in a vacuum has no compared power. Maybe this is the end of power creep? It had to stop sometime.
There are definitely more than a few cards in revealed so far that will likely see play in modern and legacy, and as far as the set seeming like it is all over the place, I am sure that a lot of things will come together more as more of the commons and uncommons are revealed. It is really hard to gauge the power level of the set as a whole when it revolves heavily around colorless cards, exile effects and tribal when there is still a lot of cards to be revealed.
"Barely any constucted playable cards"? What constructed are you talking about? Because I see cards for modern and potentially legacy. they cannot print too many legacy-playable cards each set because that would mean they would need to steadily increase the power and we have the powercreep people seems to dislike.
I disagree. There doesn't have to be any power creep at all. As long as you create different mechanics that do all sorts of different things, that should be fine. Instead of trying to create cards to fight the current meta, create cards that can form its own niche in the current meta, and possibly spread to other deck types in their own way. There doesn't have to be any power creep with that. Unfortunately, Wizards hasn't done that with this set. Despite ingest's being a decent mechanic, we've yet to see any cards that would be legacy playable.
I am so glad I did not buy a fat pack. Heck, I don't really regret going to a pre-release where I can preregister for it for $15. The neutering of green mana and red burn makes me want to puke.
15 bucks are you serious? Every shop in my country that I know of charges no less than 25 euros for that. They should pay me for opening those packs and disposing their piles of craprares when the event is over.
I'm SO SICK of the "too strong for Standard" argument. It's the new "Dies to removal". We can have a two mana 4/4 with a zillion abilities, but we can't just have Accumulated Knowledge. Makes sense.
Cards with weird rarities? Limited. Rares show up in limited less than uncommons, so if you want it in but only occasionally in limited (no real consistency so you can't get 4 of them), then you shove it in rare. Rare isn't there to be powerful, it's there to show up less often as other cards. Besides, no rare bombs and most of the first-pick worthy cards being in uncommon makes for a more consistent draft experience that bases itself more on skill.
You constructed-only players usually get around 15-20 cards a set to play with.
Until someone makes a new deck that does well at a few GPs. Then you all make that same deck and start whining about card prices because everyone is netdecking the same deck as you.
Should I go get this same thread that was made for every set release this site has been around for?
So far I have to mostly agree. The eldrazi feel like they have similarly high mana for constructed play but they left off the big impact that they used to have. We have a lot of 5-9 mana stuff and very little of it looks playable. I accept that largely this is that they were trying to bring some of the evoloution of eldrazi in and have colorless eldrazi across the board but in so many areas I feel like we see a powering down of cards and not the usual expectation of good cards between them to make up for them.
Eldrazi Spawn vs Eldrazi Scion - With the spawn, you got more of them for the mana. They brought them up in size but thats not a good thing. I would rather have quantity over quality when it comes to my mana biscuits. To me, the size increase is a bad trade off for giving less of them. Tokens are good in quantity not quality.
Annihilate vs Injest - they tried making injest into a two part ability. The only way that it would be ok is if they printed good creatures who just happen to have injest. Instead they powered this down to a bad limited ability bad limited tie in abilities that feel super underwhelming. Annihilator was fantastic and powerful. This on the other hand feels super mediocre. The cards with abilities that return cards to opponents graveyards are extremely bad cards that require bad cards (injest) to make them function. The problem is that both of them are bad and its only just ok in limited.
Landfall was OP - Ok, I can accept this one. I feel slightly cheated though to see them come back and use it but make it super scarce. I think they should have tried implimenting it differently. Dont get me wrong, Scythe Leopard is cool but if their issue was that Plated Geopede is too strong then aim it less at aggro strategies or go more for the other abilities that happened last time. Emeria Angel seemed like a fine card and I dont see how it would really break things. I hope we see more landfall as the enchantment cycle seems underwhelming to me.
Awaken - Please just dont. Nobody wants this. Sure this set is about lands but... please dont.
Devoid - I think its an ok idea but I am just not yet seeing a follow through that makes me feel like it matters. I feel like we should have been seeing more cards that care about this or some way to make this pop better. It feels really mediocre and like it could have been left off and I wouldn't be missing anything from this set. It feels like a down flavored phyrexian mana in some ways to me.
Allies - I actually sort of like where they are in comparison to where they were last time. I guess I dont really have much to complain when comparing them across the board they actually feel like they are supporting them decently.
Legendary Creatures - what happened here? I usually want legends to feel really cool and powerful and almost all of them feel awkwardly overcosted. I feel like most of them needed to cost a few less mana. Munda might be about right for limited / standard but the others just feel like something went horribly wrong.
Personally, it feels like the allies turned out alright when comparing them to last time I actually like the increased numbers and diversity (one thing they were missing last time). Most of the rest of it I have to wonder why the mythics cost so much and or do so little. Most of the rares feel like they cost one mana too much as well and it leaves me more interested in the uncommons than the rares. I feel like something went wrong and it started with wizards playing it safe.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
This board is so bad at evaluating cards. People wail and moan about decent cards and we're still missing half of the set. No, listen! Everything is fine. Hush my little baby boys and girls. This set is just average. SH! No. Don't disagree. Repeat what I say: This set is fine. Everything is fine. The power creeper isn't under your bed trying to eat you. In fact, it only exists in your imagination. Now let's all take a deep breath and think about something nice. Like the full-art lands. Aren't they beautiful? Of course they are. That's the spirit! Now go out and play with you new cards and stop with this f*%$ing b%&*%*"!!!
Eldrazi Spawn vs Eldrazi Scion - With the spawn, you got more of them for the mana. They brought them up in size but thats not a good thing. I would rather have quantity over quality when it comes to my mana biscuits. To me, the size increase is a bad trade off for giving less of them. Tokens are good in quantity not quality.
I think you're trying to compare apples to oranges here. The Spawn can only be used to make mana and chump block, while the Scions can not only make mana but also attack and kill attacking creatures. It's less about comparing two 1/1 tokens to one 2/2 token but rather comparing enchantments to creatures.
Of course, decks that use the tokens exclusively as mana biscuits prefer the Spawn. But aggressive decks that value the ability to attack and see the mana sac as a rider or a lategame feature prefer the Scions.
What is the DEAL with people posting non-rumor threads in the Rumor Mill? This main forum is for spoiling cards and other products. I'm getting sick and tired of people making threads in this forum that don't belong here.
I don't know legacy. For modern, there are a few cards that could be playable somewhere in the 75. Going through the spoilers and ignoring reprints...
scythe leopard - Its really not hard for this to be a 3/3 in an aggro deck. The same stats that got Wild nacatl banned are trivial in a deck with 50/50 fetch lands. That this deck would also support steppe lynx as a 4/5(-) shouldn't be lost on anyone. I'll probably build this just for funzzies. It certainly seems like a more interesting way to build zoo even if it may not be more powerful.
Ulamog, the ceaseless hunger - This has gotten quite a few of my tron friends excited. It doesn't push the deck over the top, and may or may not be better than existing options, but more options is always nice.
Crumble to dust - Seems like a really good sideboard card against tron to me. But what do I know?
Man Lands - The BW one dies to bolt, so probably isn't good enough in modern, but the GU one seems playable in existing GU decks that are interested in man lands.
Battle Lands - People underestimate these and think of them as bad shocks. They're wrong. I think shocks are going to remain the prefered fetch target in modern, but I'm also sure that many decks will decide that the Battle Lands are better for their deck. If a deck can get buy on AB turn 2, then it can easily run fetches with battle lands to produce a more reliable and less damaging mana base. Pretty deck specific though. Control decks may end up running a combination of fetches+shocks+battles+basics in order to maintain the excelent early game mana while having better late game fetch targets. Don't underestimate these.
Once you factor in the expedition reprints, seems to me like the set has plenty of cards for modern players, and we haven't seem them all yet. There are also many cards in the set that are hard to evaluate, who's power is dependent on interactions with other cards. Some of those may be playable as well.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
It's funny how you youngsters think, Kamigawa was a bad set. Look at some old cards from The Fallen and The Dark or Homelands.
The new set is different but I don't think it's worse. Some cards will see constructed play, especially Ulamog, the Planeswalkers, the Fling Eldrazi, some utility spells and so on.
At first I thought that Theros will be weak and I didn't liked it at all. In retrospective I admit that I was wrong, some good cards came from there. It will be the same here. Some cards may look mediocre now but after you played some drafts and people figured some decks out, it will be one of the better sets in retrospective.
Especially for the full art lands and the expedition, the Eldrazi and some cool new man lands
Luckily some of the commons/uncommons seem pretty good. Unfortunately this set is very top heavy when it comes to chase cards. The planeswalker seem really good, Drana is aggressively costing as a boosting creature, Greenwarden is gonna be Eternal Witness 2.0 in EDH, Newlamog is pretty boss and Void Winnoner is just hilarious and powerful at the sametime. Also Smothering Abomination has decent potential.
But for the love of Emeria... there are some STRONG DUDS in this set! The two colorless rare lands, Prism Network, Mega O-ring, almost all of the converge cards minus Bring to light and perhaps Woodland Wanderer are so GARBAGE! A lot of people are betting that Radiant Flames is gonna be great. I am not one of those people. Unless we get some super synergistic cards for the other half of the spoilers... I think I will just pre-order lands.
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To the people that say that a card needs to be a higher rarity because of Limited... I hate you guys so much. I present to you with this.
It is not that the set sucks pwoer level wise, which it may or may not.
It is the set is BORING. I never bought a case of a set before, I pre-ordered a case of this set. I cancelled said pre-order yesterday. Why? Because this is one of the least interesting sets of cards that WOTC has printed to date. Mechanically it is so bland that I am considering skipping it altogether and spending my money on something else.
Where is the landfall? Where is all of the stuff that made Zendikar fun? It is absent from the cards spoiled so far. I wanted to return to Zendikar. This could be any lame generic plane with a stompy creature theme.
The rares certainly have been underwhelming; many of the basic constructed spells have been bumped up in rarity, nerfed, and/or reduced to sorcery speed. I'm anxious to see the rest of the set spoiled to see whether we get good uncommons or not. Even if we don't, of course the set will see a lot of constructed play. We're losing half of the card pool.
The lands (they're great) and expedition promotion will sell this set. Luckily that will keep the price in check, so it should be easy to pick up the standard playables cheaply.
Here's to hoping they've made a great limited format. I enjoy limited and even if I end up disliking the set for constructed, that won't stop me from drafting it.
What is the DEAL with people posting non-rumor threads in the Rumor Mill? This main forum is for spoiling cards and other products. I'm getting sick and tired of people making threads in this forum that don't belong here.
Do you realize that rumors are not really allowed in the rumor thread? An official spoiler is not a rumor. Mark Rosewater blatantly stating something on his Tumblr isnt a rumor. A con panel or segment from PT coverage is not a rumor. Rumors are not allowed in the Rumor Mill.
1) Inbred mechanics that aren't at all self-explanatory. Devoid, Ingest, Processors, and Allies are all mechanics that do absolutely nothing by themselves. Look at Mist Intruder and how little 2 of those 3 mechanics matter unless you know what's going on; a new player will look at that card and see a bunch of abilities, but not realize that it's just a stupid Storm Crow unless you have other cards. Meanwhile, we haven't seen any crazy enablers to really make those mechanics worth playing in constructed, only assurances that the synergies there are in fact good.
2) Abysmal average rare quality. Not every rare you opened in Magic Origins was a constructed staple, but there were a lot of cards that made you wonder "Hmm... I wonder how I can make that work." Here you open them and think "Yeah, I know exactly where this is supposed to belong, but I don't even think I want it there." Which is the more exciting "casual" rare, Exert Influence or Talent of the Telepath?
The phrase "barely any constructed playable cards" is absurd and meaningless. Standard is a constructed format and this set will be in standard. On top of that it will push Theros, which mind you lots of people said the same thing about, out of standard and lots of cards that are the core of lots of decks out with it. Now if you mean Modern or Legacy; 1 you should say what you mean and 2 maybe, maybe not. Maybe you should wait for the whole set to come out and then actually do some testing with cards to see how they play instead of just declaring things arbitrarily.
But for the love of Emeria... there are some STRONG DUDS in this set! The two colorless rare lands, Prism Network, Mega O-ring, almost all of the converge cards minus Bring to light and perhaps Woodland Wanderer are so GARBAGE! A lot of people are betting that Radiant Flames is gonna be great. I am not one of those people. Unless we get some super synergistic cards for the other half of the spoilers... I think I will just pre-order lands.
BS... We're coming out of a three color set. It's stupid easy to support a three color mana base. It's trivial to go 4 color and 5 color is doable. With that in mind while ignoring Woodland Wanderer and Bring to light, lets evaluate all the spoiled converge cards...
Exert influence - Don't forget how strong control effects are in standard. If our format remains defined by 4 power midrange beaters, than exert influence is very good. Could be mainboard in Salty Abzan.
Painful Truths - Draw three for three mana is great. Maybe not constructed playable, but edh players will use it. It's hardly garbage.
Prism Array - Garbage. I don't understand what this card is supposed to be for. Its terrible. My guess is this was supposed to be an uncommon but was hurting limited (somehow??) so they pumped it to rare. Alternatively, this may have been a completely different card that was broken in FFL so they may it trash rather than break the game.
Radiant Flames - Has three damage to everything for three mana ever not been playable? Calling this garbage is simply ignorant.
Skyrider Elf - It's a 2/2 flier for 2 and a 3/3 flier for three and a 4/4 flier for 4. It's also uncommon. How can you consider this Garbage.
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Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
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Someone created a similar thread before and speculated that all these weirds cards had a purpose, and the cards that have synergy with them to make them work would be spoiler later. While its still possible, as more and more spoilers are given the chances of that seem to diminish.
What are your thoughts? Is BFZ the new Kamigawa? Is there anything OP previously in the format Wizards is trying to curb? Maybe you disagree with me?
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I disagree. There doesn't have to be any power creep at all. As long as you create different mechanics that do all sorts of different things, that should be fine. Instead of trying to create cards to fight the current meta, create cards that can form its own niche in the current meta, and possibly spread to other deck types in their own way. There doesn't have to be any power creep with that. Unfortunately, Wizards hasn't done that with this set. Despite ingest's being a decent mechanic, we've yet to see any cards that would be legacy playable.
15 bucks are you serious? Every shop in my country that I know of charges no less than 25 euros for that. They should pay me for opening those packs and disposing their piles of craprares when the event is over.
Until someone makes a new deck that does well at a few GPs. Then you all make that same deck and start whining about card prices because everyone is netdecking the same deck as you.
Should I go get this same thread that was made for every set release this site has been around for?
Eldrazi Spawn vs Eldrazi Scion - With the spawn, you got more of them for the mana. They brought them up in size but thats not a good thing. I would rather have quantity over quality when it comes to my mana biscuits. To me, the size increase is a bad trade off for giving less of them. Tokens are good in quantity not quality.
Annihilate vs Injest - they tried making injest into a two part ability. The only way that it would be ok is if they printed good creatures who just happen to have injest. Instead they powered this down to a bad limited ability bad limited tie in abilities that feel super underwhelming. Annihilator was fantastic and powerful. This on the other hand feels super mediocre. The cards with abilities that return cards to opponents graveyards are extremely bad cards that require bad cards (injest) to make them function. The problem is that both of them are bad and its only just ok in limited.
Landfall was OP - Ok, I can accept this one. I feel slightly cheated though to see them come back and use it but make it super scarce. I think they should have tried implimenting it differently. Dont get me wrong, Scythe Leopard is cool but if their issue was that Plated Geopede is too strong then aim it less at aggro strategies or go more for the other abilities that happened last time. Emeria Angel seemed like a fine card and I dont see how it would really break things. I hope we see more landfall as the enchantment cycle seems underwhelming to me.
Awaken - Please just dont. Nobody wants this. Sure this set is about lands but... please dont.
Devoid - I think its an ok idea but I am just not yet seeing a follow through that makes me feel like it matters. I feel like we should have been seeing more cards that care about this or some way to make this pop better. It feels really mediocre and like it could have been left off and I wouldn't be missing anything from this set. It feels like a down flavored phyrexian mana in some ways to me.
Allies - I actually sort of like where they are in comparison to where they were last time. I guess I dont really have much to complain when comparing them across the board they actually feel like they are supporting them decently.
Legendary Creatures - what happened here? I usually want legends to feel really cool and powerful and almost all of them feel awkwardly overcosted. I feel like most of them needed to cost a few less mana. Munda might be about right for limited / standard but the others just feel like something went horribly wrong.
Personally, it feels like the allies turned out alright when comparing them to last time I actually like the increased numbers and diversity (one thing they were missing last time). Most of the rest of it I have to wonder why the mythics cost so much and or do so little. Most of the rares feel like they cost one mana too much as well and it leaves me more interested in the uncommons than the rares. I feel like something went wrong and it started with wizards playing it safe.
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[Modern] Allies
I think you're trying to compare apples to oranges here. The Spawn can only be used to make mana and chump block, while the Scions can not only make mana but also attack and kill attacking creatures. It's less about comparing two 1/1 tokens to one 2/2 token but rather comparing enchantments to creatures.
Of course, decks that use the tokens exclusively as mana biscuits prefer the Spawn. But aggressive decks that value the ability to attack and see the mana sac as a rider or a lategame feature prefer the Scions.
Once you factor in the expedition reprints, seems to me like the set has plenty of cards for modern players, and we haven't seem them all yet. There are also many cards in the set that are hard to evaluate, who's power is dependent on interactions with other cards. Some of those may be playable as well.
- Manite
Luckily some of the commons/uncommons seem pretty good. Unfortunately this set is very top heavy when it comes to chase cards. The planeswalker seem really good, Drana is aggressively costing as a boosting creature, Greenwarden is gonna be Eternal Witness 2.0 in EDH, Newlamog is pretty boss and Void Winnoner is just hilarious and powerful at the sametime. Also Smothering Abomination has decent potential.
But for the love of Emeria... there are some STRONG DUDS in this set! The two colorless rare lands, Prism Network, Mega O-ring, almost all of the converge cards minus Bring to light and perhaps Woodland Wanderer are so GARBAGE! A lot of people are betting that Radiant Flames is gonna be great. I am not one of those people. Unless we get some super synergistic cards for the other half of the spoilers... I think I will just pre-order lands.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SY8h2vp5Xis
It is the set is BORING. I never bought a case of a set before, I pre-ordered a case of this set. I cancelled said pre-order yesterday. Why? Because this is one of the least interesting sets of cards that WOTC has printed to date. Mechanically it is so bland that I am considering skipping it altogether and spending my money on something else.
Where is the landfall? Where is all of the stuff that made Zendikar fun? It is absent from the cards spoiled so far. I wanted to return to Zendikar. This could be any lame generic plane with a stompy creature theme.
The lands (they're great) and expedition promotion will sell this set. Luckily that will keep the price in check, so it should be easy to pick up the standard playables cheaply.
Here's to hoping they've made a great limited format. I enjoy limited and even if I end up disliking the set for constructed, that won't stop me from drafting it.
UR Blue-Red Control
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
UWR Jeskai Control
Do you realize that rumors are not really allowed in the rumor thread? An official spoiler is not a rumor. Mark Rosewater blatantly stating something on his Tumblr isnt a rumor. A con panel or segment from PT coverage is not a rumor. Rumors are not allowed in the Rumor Mill.
1) Inbred mechanics that aren't at all self-explanatory. Devoid, Ingest, Processors, and Allies are all mechanics that do absolutely nothing by themselves. Look at Mist Intruder and how little 2 of those 3 mechanics matter unless you know what's going on; a new player will look at that card and see a bunch of abilities, but not realize that it's just a stupid Storm Crow unless you have other cards. Meanwhile, we haven't seen any crazy enablers to really make those mechanics worth playing in constructed, only assurances that the synergies there are in fact good.
2) Abysmal average rare quality. Not every rare you opened in Magic Origins was a constructed staple, but there were a lot of cards that made you wonder "Hmm... I wonder how I can make that work." Here you open them and think "Yeah, I know exactly where this is supposed to belong, but I don't even think I want it there." Which is the more exciting "casual" rare, Exert Influence or Talent of the Telepath?
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BS... We're coming out of a three color set. It's stupid easy to support a three color mana base. It's trivial to go 4 color and 5 color is doable. With that in mind while ignoring Woodland Wanderer and Bring to light, lets evaluate all the spoiled converge cards...
- Manite