My main up-vote for BFZ is the specific mechanics that have been added in ways to make meta decks more a "theme" build, rather than standard ramp, control, midrange, etc. With the rebirth of allies and Eldrazi, those kind of cards require the deck to be mostly built off of booster cards for than type (i.e. Eldrazi scion tokens). I am excited to see 3 or 4 color allies decks and constructed Eldrazi "ramp" decks.
And here's the cards that I expect to see play from BFZ:
- All 5 tangolands, since if you run more than 1 shock of a color pair it's better to run a mix of shocks and tangolands.
- Both manlands, they're better than Lavaclaw Reaches and on par/slightly better than Stirring Wildwood. There are better manlands, but a lot of color combos can't play them.
- Conduit of Ruin, an excellent card for Modern Tron that tutors, ramps, and is great in combat too.
- Retreat to Coralhelm, so much combo potential with Knight of the Reliquary and Ruin Ghost.
- Painful Truths, insane card advantage for Jund/Abzan.
- Wasteland Strangler, the cost is super easy to pay in modern and it's a 2-for-1 that affects the board.
- Crumble to Dust, a sideboard replacement for Sowing Salt
- Sylvan Scrying, obviously as it already sees play.
- Bring to Light, clearly good in a scapeshift deck splashing a 4th color, and might enable something else.
- Brutal Expulsion, insanely versatile like Kolaghan's Command.
- Blighted Cataract and Blighted Fen, minimal opportunity cost to play for a powerful effect.
- Sanctum of Ugin, no good reason not to play it as a 1-of in Tron decks.
If only 2/3 of these see play, the set will be on par with original Zendikar, and we still have plenty of cards left to see.
I don't hate the set but I'm not in love with it either.
For me in this spoiler stage what counts is the flavor and the art, the impact in standard and the overall shape of limited.
I'm not a huge fan of the flavor so far: first time the lines between colored and uncolored Eldrazi were clearer and I miss too much of Zendikar's adventure/rpg theme (Quest cards, Allys felt like a adventuring party instead of a generic tribe, level-up). This is way too much like New Phyrexia (World vs. Aliens conflict). I expected the theme would be more about survival in a dying world, were the rpg/adventure elements could be revisited, rather then another planar-wide war. The good thing is that I like how this block story is related to KTK block - but it's not like i need to acquire cards to enjoy that.
The impact on Standard looks good. Eldrazi bring plenty of possibilities - devoid aggro with ghostfire blade, traditional combo-like ramp and ingest-processor based midrange. Pretty sure at least one of then will be a good contenders and hopefully the others will be at least FNM playable. The new land base alone improves shard-colored decks and 4C decks. Allys will surely be either good or FNM playable. All the PW are pretty good and Ob Nixilis maybe will give more reasons to go black control.
The limited is impossible to judge because there's not enough common/uncommons spoiled. It certainly looks better then ZEN (who was a bad limited, anyone saying it's good didn't drafted it more then 5 times -_-').
The set does (to me) feel a little unfinished in a few different areas.
That said, as a 100% casual player, I am pre-ordering about the same amount of Ebay singles as I did from any other recent set. By this measure it feels pretty average to me.
I definitely do not like the collective visual footprint of this set's art though. Oof. (Edit: Full spoiler up..ok, it's a little better.)
Boo hoo hoo this set is worst Magic set ever. The rares are all jank and the set sucks bro. The mechanics are all jank and every thing in this set is garbage. At least they put full art lands in here. (sarcasm voice)
Every set has its doubters and even haters gonna hate and say this is the worst set in magic history. Isnt every set the worst set in magic to some? Hey I like this set and think that standard is gonna be different this time round. I look forward to limited and look forward to seeing what new decks popup. I cant wait for it!
Thank you, i didnt know this forum had other sane mtg players. People *****ed about Innistrad's Lili when it came out, called it horrible. People thought Delver was a trash common. 90% of players don't know how to evaluate cards.
But let's make a deal, in 2 months we gonna know if we were right, i bet no more than 4 cards will be played in a t1 modern deck, even better, i bet we will se no more than 2 cards will be played in a t2 legacy deck, because this set really sucks, that's all it is.
Why would you want new cards to pump t1 decks? Wouldn't it be better to pump t2 and t1.5 decks, making the format more diverse and more interesting.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
No.... Champions of Kamigawa was the worst set. This set has some of the worst rares and mythics though. Just like the first Zendikar, i'm more excited for all the commons and uncommons. And lands.
Say that to rares like:
gifts ungiven
through the breach
glimpse of nature
Azusa, lost but seeking
kokusho
Yosei
Meloku, the clouded mirror
sensei's divining top
Kiki jiki
Boseiju, who shelters all
Minamo
Forbidden orchard
Eight and a half tails
Isamaru, hound of konda
And this is just champions look at betrayers and see how many expensive rares are. Smh on people that comment with no base.
You don't get my point, if the cards are as playable as some say it, we will see them in some t1 decks, that is just logic. But even in t2 decks i don't really believe we'll find a lot of bfz cards.
Its bad logic. Most T1 modern decks are built on good stuff. Retreat to coralhelm is a card that could become format defining, and will never drop into an existing deck. Tron is generally considered a t1.5-t2 deck, and its getting at least one new playable card. Bring to light is being tested in scapeshift, and scapeshift is yet another t1.5-t2 deck. It is also being tested in entirely new Builds that have nothing to do with any other modern decks. Being 'playable in modern' and 'being playable in T1 modern decks' are not even close to equivalent.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
I've been playing since Beta. This really is a terrible set.
It also contains a lot of lazy design.
Like really? Add some awaken to a cancel and put it at rare? You got to be kidding me.
Add awaken to Drown of Sorrow...I bet that took some deep thought.
Although awaken isn't a bad mechanic...you can see there was little thought put into the cards that use it. Disappointing.
Shrine of the Forsaken God's is a complete joke. 7 lands? are you for real? The Eldrazi Temple is 10 times better...and still isn't OP.
I still can't figure out what it is with WOTC and Phoenix cards. Have they not figured out yet that 6 mana in 90% of the red decks ever made almost never happens. They just don't get it.
How about the staples in Battle for Zendikar?
Red: In 5 years we've gone from lightning bolt to incinerate, to lightning strike to um...what does Battle for Zendikar have?
Black: What do we get? Bone Splinters is the best we have? Complete Disregard is nice...but limited. Ruinous Path after Hero's Downfall is just ugh...
White....Seems that 4 mana sweepers are gone for good...although I do like Planar Outburst...and Stasis Snare is interesting. I guess WOTC really wants control out of the game. White is just overall terrible in this set except for Gideon.
Green: Ok I just don't get how we have no 1CC Mana Dork? This is a first for Standard. We used to have both Birds of Paradise AND a 1CC elf in every standard. Right now, we got nothing...and the thing is this is supposed to be a RAMP set for the Eldrazi....but nothing for turn 1...seriously?
Blue...Counterspells have gone down the toilet...Dispel is nice and the new 'mana leak' is doable, but seriously....I'm a control player...this sucks.
And for those of you who were around for Rise of the Eldrazi....Annihilator was rarely a factor in Standard. The new Eldrazi are not that threatening.
Some final thoughts:
If you look at the standard decklists right now....you'll notice that the cards are made up of about 85-90% Khans, M15, or Origins cards. And about 10-15% Theros Block. That's what happens when you make a strong block beside weak block. If you take out the Temples.....you can up that to about 90-95% Khans, M15, Origins. Strange that there are lots of Elder Dragons being played in standard, but virtually no Gods...This shows that Theros is a much weaker block.
Mark my words...it will be the same with Battle of Zendikar Standard. 90-95% of the cards being played will be from Origins/Khans block. Even though its 4 sets against 1...that is still a bad ratio, which will show how weak Battle of Zendikar is.
Tier demarcations change as existing decks evolve and new decks emerge. Grixis variants were not a thing before Tasigur, Angler, and K-Command were printed. I don't think he's saying that BFZ cards must find their way into decks that currently sit as T1.
I'd expand it to include T2 decks as well. Those are all perfectly viable.
No useable burn spell 1-2 cmc the set is a bust for me.( I'm not buying any Battle for Zendikar product). I'm just going to play a Khans block deck until Khans rotates.
This set Maybe top 3 or 4 worst set of all time. I'm glad they are speeding up standard Rotation. The good news is, I get to keep my money since I don't care about the cash grab lands.
(Random thoughts while scanning through spoiler...)
-It's definitely a set designed for limited. I think there's no argument with that statement.
-Interesting cards for Commander... but you can say that about almost ANY set.
-Oh look another Gideon...at least this one (finally) doesn't suck. (Face the facts Wizards... NO ONE cares about Gideon, no one likes him. #ReviveElspeth )
-I like Drana and Ob Nixilis.
-Most non-mythic rares suck. Or are just slightly worse reprints. See: Ruinous Path...
-Yet, Black is strong in this set.
-YAY! I can play eight Creeping Molds!
-The "Retreat to..." enchantment cycle is good.
-Sylvan Scrying reprint. Thank you.
-I think Noyan Dar is the sleeper rare.
-Lands, and lands, and lands...oh my.
-Don't like that these dual don't interact well with other non-basics, but if creates another viable alternative path for building mana-bases that's a positive for the game. Building an efficient two-color manabase SHOULD be affordable. Too many times mana-bases cost more the spells in a deck.
-Full art basic lands. Cool.
-Titan's Presence is actually a really good card thematically and functionally.
-Colorless removal in general is neat.
-The whole exile and ingest gimmick feels like an unnecessary side game. I don't like it.
-Landfall is slightly more underwhelming this time around...They've learned...
-Converge sucks. Look, they tried with Sunburst and failed. (Except Engineered Explosives). Domain was truly the only mechanic that steered people to play 5 color decks. I'll take Allied Strategies and Worldly Counsels any day of the week. (Was it too much to ask to reprint Harrow again?)
-Someone needs to build a deck with all odd number casting cost cards and Void Winnower and call the deck Oddworld.
Not the worst set I've ever seen. Its a big set, but feels like a complementary set. Too many eldrazi, they feel watered down, weakened, and useless. If I wanted to ramp up and play big scary creatures, I want to smash face. Not play around with their exiled crap and give them a chance to comeback.
Grade: C+ because new dual lands and lands that do cool things.
No.... Champions of Kamigawa was the worst set. This set has some of the worst rares and mythics though. Just like the first Zendikar, i'm more excited for all the commons and uncommons. And lands.
Say that to rares like:
gifts ungiven
through the breach
glimpse of nature
Azusa, lost but seeking
kokusho
Yosei
Meloku, the clouded mirror
sensei's divining top
Kiki jiki
Boseiju, who shelters all
Minamo
Forbidden orchard
Eight and a half tails
Isamaru, hound of konda
And this is just champions look at betrayers and see how many expensive rares are. Smh on people that comment with no base.
Im not entirely happy with this set but im happy with what it is. theres a lot of good cards at common and uncommon so drafting should be interesting. Im sure theres a few new decks that will come up for standard which is always a good thing. Not the worst set ever but i guess it could have been a little bit better
Back in the day I thought Rise of the Eldrazi was the worst set ever
With maturity, I now think differently. This set shows promise. It's really, really weird and asks us to do new things. That sounds like fun! I for one welcome our new ally overlords.
As a budget casual player, I hate seeing my decent commons and uncommons becoming the talk of the set. This will raise their price and general availability causing me to have to pay $2 apiece instead of for the whole playset. Sphinx's Tutelage for reference.
This really sucks as a guy on such a constrained budget.
- The fetchlands
- Goblin Guide
- Pyromancer Ascension
- Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
- Spell Pierce
- Expedition Map
- Vines of Vastwood
- Spreading Seas
That's 12 cards.
And here's the cards that I expect to see play from BFZ:
- All 5 tangolands, since if you run more than 1 shock of a color pair it's better to run a mix of shocks and tangolands.
- Both manlands, they're better than Lavaclaw Reaches and on par/slightly better than Stirring Wildwood. There are better manlands, but a lot of color combos can't play them.
- Conduit of Ruin, an excellent card for Modern Tron that tutors, ramps, and is great in combat too.
- Retreat to Coralhelm, so much combo potential with Knight of the Reliquary and Ruin Ghost.
- Painful Truths, insane card advantage for Jund/Abzan.
- Wasteland Strangler, the cost is super easy to pay in modern and it's a 2-for-1 that affects the board.
- Crumble to Dust, a sideboard replacement for Sowing Salt
- Sylvan Scrying, obviously as it already sees play.
- Bring to Light, clearly good in a scapeshift deck splashing a 4th color, and might enable something else.
- Brutal Expulsion, insanely versatile like Kolaghan's Command.
- Blighted Cataract and Blighted Fen, minimal opportunity cost to play for a powerful effect.
- Sanctum of Ugin, no good reason not to play it as a 1-of in Tron decks.
If only 2/3 of these see play, the set will be on par with original Zendikar, and we still have plenty of cards left to see.
For me in this spoiler stage what counts is the flavor and the art, the impact in standard and the overall shape of limited.
I'm not a huge fan of the flavor so far: first time the lines between colored and uncolored Eldrazi were clearer and I miss too much of Zendikar's adventure/rpg theme (Quest cards, Allys felt like a adventuring party instead of a generic tribe, level-up). This is way too much like New Phyrexia (World vs. Aliens conflict). I expected the theme would be more about survival in a dying world, were the rpg/adventure elements could be revisited, rather then another planar-wide war. The good thing is that I like how this block story is related to KTK block - but it's not like i need to acquire cards to enjoy that.
The impact on Standard looks good. Eldrazi bring plenty of possibilities - devoid aggro with ghostfire blade, traditional combo-like ramp and ingest-processor based midrange. Pretty sure at least one of then will be a good contenders and hopefully the others will be at least FNM playable. The new land base alone improves shard-colored decks and 4C decks. Allys will surely be either good or FNM playable. All the PW are pretty good and Ob Nixilis maybe will give more reasons to go black control.
The limited is impossible to judge because there's not enough common/uncommons spoiled. It certainly looks better then ZEN (who was a bad limited, anyone saying it's good didn't drafted it more then 5 times -_-').
BGU Control
R Aggro
Standard - For Fun
BG Auras
That said, as a 100% casual player, I am pre-ordering about the same amount of Ebay singles as I did from any other recent set. By this measure it feels pretty average to me.
I definitely do not like the collective visual footprint of this set's art though. Oof. (Edit: Full spoiler up..ok, it's a little better.)
Fully-powered 600-Card "Dream Cube" https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/dreamcube
450-Card "Artificer's Cube" https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/artificer
Cubing in Indianapolis...send me a PM!!
Thank you, i didnt know this forum had other sane mtg players. People *****ed about Innistrad's Lili when it came out, called it horrible. People thought Delver was a trash common. 90% of players don't know how to evaluate cards.
Why would you want new cards to pump t1 decks? Wouldn't it be better to pump t2 and t1.5 decks, making the format more diverse and more interesting.
- Manite
Say that to rares like:
gifts ungiven
through the breach
glimpse of nature
Azusa, lost but seeking
kokusho
Yosei
Meloku, the clouded mirror
sensei's divining top
Kiki jiki
Boseiju, who shelters all
Minamo
Forbidden orchard
Eight and a half tails
Isamaru, hound of konda
And this is just champions look at betrayers and see how many expensive rares are. Smh on people that comment with no base.
Its bad logic. Most T1 modern decks are built on good stuff. Retreat to coralhelm is a card that could become format defining, and will never drop into an existing deck. Tron is generally considered a t1.5-t2 deck, and its getting at least one new playable card. Bring to light is being tested in scapeshift, and scapeshift is yet another t1.5-t2 deck. It is also being tested in entirely new Builds that have nothing to do with any other modern decks. Being 'playable in modern' and 'being playable in T1 modern decks' are not even close to equivalent.
- Manite
It also contains a lot of lazy design.
Like really? Add some awaken to a cancel and put it at rare? You got to be kidding me.
Add awaken to Drown of Sorrow...I bet that took some deep thought.
Although awaken isn't a bad mechanic...you can see there was little thought put into the cards that use it. Disappointing.
Shrine of the Forsaken God's is a complete joke. 7 lands? are you for real? The Eldrazi Temple is 10 times better...and still isn't OP.
I still can't figure out what it is with WOTC and Phoenix cards. Have they not figured out yet that 6 mana in 90% of the red decks ever made almost never happens. They just don't get it.
How about the staples in Battle for Zendikar?
Red: In 5 years we've gone from lightning bolt to incinerate, to lightning strike to um...what does Battle for Zendikar have?
Black: What do we get? Bone Splinters is the best we have? Complete Disregard is nice...but limited. Ruinous Path after Hero's Downfall is just ugh...
White....Seems that 4 mana sweepers are gone for good...although I do like Planar Outburst...and Stasis Snare is interesting. I guess WOTC really wants control out of the game. White is just overall terrible in this set except for Gideon.
Green: Ok I just don't get how we have no 1CC Mana Dork? This is a first for Standard. We used to have both Birds of Paradise AND a 1CC elf in every standard. Right now, we got nothing...and the thing is this is supposed to be a RAMP set for the Eldrazi....but nothing for turn 1...seriously?
Blue...Counterspells have gone down the toilet...Dispel is nice and the new 'mana leak' is doable, but seriously....I'm a control player...this sucks.
And for those of you who were around for Rise of the Eldrazi....Annihilator was rarely a factor in Standard. The new Eldrazi are not that threatening.
Some final thoughts:
If you look at the standard decklists right now....you'll notice that the cards are made up of about 85-90% Khans, M15, or Origins cards. And about 10-15% Theros Block. That's what happens when you make a strong block beside weak block. If you take out the Temples.....you can up that to about 90-95% Khans, M15, Origins. Strange that there are lots of Elder Dragons being played in standard, but virtually no Gods...This shows that Theros is a much weaker block.
Mark my words...it will be the same with Battle of Zendikar Standard. 90-95% of the cards being played will be from Origins/Khans block. Even though its 4 sets against 1...that is still a bad ratio, which will show how weak Battle of Zendikar is.
I'd expand it to include T2 decks as well. Those are all perfectly viable.
UR Blue-Red Control
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
UWR Jeskai Control
This set Maybe top 3 or 4 worst set of all time. I'm glad they are speeding up standard Rotation. The good news is, I get to keep my money since I don't care about the cash grab lands.
-It's definitely a set designed for limited. I think there's no argument with that statement.
-Interesting cards for Commander... but you can say that about almost ANY set.
-Oh look another Gideon...at least this one (finally) doesn't suck. (Face the facts Wizards... NO ONE cares about Gideon, no one likes him. #ReviveElspeth )
-I like Drana and Ob Nixilis.
-Most non-mythic rares suck. Or are just slightly worse reprints. See: Ruinous Path...
-Yet, Black is strong in this set.
-YAY! I can play eight Creeping Molds!
-The "Retreat to..." enchantment cycle is good.
-Sylvan Scrying reprint. Thank you.
-I think Noyan Dar is the sleeper rare.
-Lands, and lands, and lands...oh my.
-Don't like that these dual don't interact well with other non-basics, but if creates another viable alternative path for building mana-bases that's a positive for the game. Building an efficient two-color manabase SHOULD be affordable. Too many times mana-bases cost more the spells in a deck.
-Full art basic lands. Cool.
-Titan's Presence is actually a really good card thematically and functionally.
-Colorless removal in general is neat.
-The whole exile and ingest gimmick feels like an unnecessary side game. I don't like it.
-Landfall is slightly more underwhelming this time around...They've learned...
-Converge sucks. Look, they tried with Sunburst and failed. (Except Engineered Explosives). Domain was truly the only mechanic that steered people to play 5 color decks. I'll take Allied Strategies and Worldly Counsels any day of the week. (Was it too much to ask to reprint Harrow again?)
-Someone needs to build a deck with all odd number casting cost cards and Void Winnower and call the deck Oddworld.
Not the worst set I've ever seen. Its a big set, but feels like a complementary set. Too many eldrazi, they feel watered down, weakened, and useless. If I wanted to ramp up and play big scary creatures, I want to smash face. Not play around with their exiled crap and give them a chance to comeback.
Grade: C+ because new dual lands and lands that do cool things.
it was a bad set until modern became a thing
BWTeysa, Orzhov Scion Combo
GUEzuri, Claw of progress Morph
GUBSidisi, Brood tyrant
RWGisela, Blade of Goldnight Random red white cards i dont use.dec
GBLoam Pox
Modern
UBFaeries
GBWGoyfless Abzan
On Squirrels
On Risen Executioner
With maturity, I now think differently. This set shows promise. It's really, really weird and asks us to do new things. That sounds like fun! I for one welcome our new ally overlords.
How is it strictly better? It only triggers off your creatures.
Credit to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the Avatar & Miraculous Recovery for the Banner.
My 540 Card Cube (WIP)
This really sucks as a guy on such a constrained budget.