Sorry, I ment myself personally, and really it's like four not counting the lands. Also, I dont try to shove any card into my EDH decks because I like to play good decks most of the time...so yeah, not many cards i'll play.
First off, complaining that this set only gave you specifically 4 cards to put in your edh deck is dumb. You are basically saying that wizards should just design sets exclusively for you and everyone else doesn't matter.
Second, why on earth would we be ignoring lands in a set for which one if its main themes is land? If we were analyzing Khans, would you say 'ignoring multi-color cards...'
In any case, your revised estimate of 4 is similarly ridiculous. Ignoring lands, as you say, and ignoring low impact cards and bad commanders, here are a bunch of high impact playable EDH cards...
Part the Waterveil - There are so many edh decks that just want every extra turn effect. IT doesn't matter that this one is weaker than many that have come before it, the decks always want more. (Narset, Enlightened Master for example)
vampiric rites - Efficient sac outlets are always playable in EDH.
Scour from Existence - Instant speed deal with any permanent in any color. This is not a powerful card, but its ability to go into any deck be as broad an answer as possible makes it playable. This card lets many EDH decks deal with things that they just couldn't before.
Omnath, Locus of Rage - Really sweet EDH commander. Elemental tribal has some support in GR, tokens gets tons of support, and the creature is very strong.
Bring to Light - Generically good in any 5 color commander deck. Super good. Game breaking good.
...There are many more playable EDH cards in BFZ besides these, but these are the big flashy ones.
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Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
Looks like many of you have never lived through the early days of Magic. The Dark, Homelands, Fallen Empires. Back in MY day...
I did, and your comment is irrelevant in that regard. Back in these days, limited was not a thing, each of these sets were self-contained and you would build your poop deck to play with friends on the kitchen table with variably interpreted rules. Also, 8-cards boosters.
You still paid money for the cards, didn't you? When's the last time you ever played any fallen empires card in ANY format? Not to mention, a lot of people still play with poop decks against their friends at the kitchen table. Only difference is that back then, they were all poop decks.
Looks like many of you have never lived through the early days of Magic. The Dark, Homelands, Fallen Empires. Back in MY day...
I did, and your comment is irrelevant in that regard. Back in these days, limited was not a thing, each of these sets were self-contained and you would build your poop deck to play with friends on the kitchen table with variably interpreted rules. Also, 8-cards boosters.
You still paid money for the cards, didn't you? When's the last time you ever played any fallen empires card in ANY format? Not to mention, a lot of people still play with poop decks against their friends at the kitchen table. Only difference is that back then, they were all poop decks.
Looks like many of you have never lived through the early days of Magic. The Dark, Homelands, Fallen Empires. Back in MY day...
I did, and your comment is irrelevant in that regard. Back in these days, limited was not a thing, each of these sets were self-contained and you would build your poop deck to play with friends on the kitchen table with variably interpreted rules. Also, 8-cards boosters.
You still paid money for the cards, didn't you? When's the last time you ever played any fallen empires card in ANY format? Not to mention, a lot of people still play with poop decks against their friends at the kitchen table. Only difference is that back then, they were all poop decks.
I think you've helped prove the point. Those 4 cards are all that's worth mentioning and even then, you can see the power creep in Breeding Pit vs. Awakening Zone. Again, when's the last time you ever played those 4 cards? The sets aren't getting worse. Everyone's expectations are.
I think you've helped prove the point. Those 4 cards are all that's worth mentioning and even then, you can see the power creep in Breeding Pit vs. Awakening Zone. Again, when's the last time you ever played those 4 cards? The sets aren't getting worse. Everyone's expectations are.
Honestly, of those 4 cards, all but breeding pit are very strong and playable today.
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Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
Anyway as a strictly modern player I don't expect much for all the decks to cherry pick something but there are cards that will see play. Knight Retreat will see play folks, and there are Tron pieces in here, and I think people are underestimating the impact of the tangos.
WotC balances for Limited and Standard, without power level resets, the game suffers as creep takes hold.
I think you've helped prove the point. Those 4 cards are all that's worth mentioning and even then, you can see the power creep in Breeding Pit vs. Awakening Zone. Again, when's the last time you ever played those 4 cards? The sets aren't getting worse. Everyone's expectations are.
Honestly, of those 4 cards, all but breeding pit are very strong and playable today.
Jesus, guys! Alright...you can buy 1 pack of this set or 2 packs of Fallen Empires for the same price. Not even considering tournament legality and all that BS, you'd be a moron to pick Fallen Empires.
I think you've helped prove the point. Those 4 cards are all that's worth mentioning and even then, you can see the power creep in Breeding Pit vs. Awakening Zone. Again, when's the last time you ever played those 4 cards? The sets aren't getting worse. Everyone's expectations are.
Honestly, of those 4 cards, all but breeding pit are very strong and playable today.
Jesus, guys! Alright...you can buy 1 pack of this set or 2 packs of Fallen Empires for the same price. Not even considering tournament legality and all that BS, you'd be a moron to pick Fallen Empires.
I agree with you completely, but your argument in relation to those 4 cards was bad.
IMO, I don't think I've ever seen worse examples of Card evaluation than I have for this set. Many people seem to think that BFZ doesn't have strong cards. Those people aren't paying attention. The Battle lands by themselves are going to hit standard like a freight train making everything more multi-color. We could be seeing the birth of a 5-color standard. At the very least, midrange decks are going to pick up a color. There are multiple entirely new strategies being opened up like colorless tribal, Eldrazi Processors, Eldrazi Ramp, and Allies. There are many individually powerful cards as well. People are complaining when we get a card that is built for these strategies, meaning its generally weaker than existing cards outside the strategies. Those people don't understand the concept of 'Strictly Different.'
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Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
I think you've helped prove the point. Those 4 cards are all that's worth mentioning and even then, you can see the power creep in Breeding Pit vs. Awakening Zone. Again, when's the last time you ever played those 4 cards? The sets aren't getting worse. Everyone's expectations are.
Honestly, of those 4 cards, all but breeding pit are very strong and playable today.
Jesus, guys! Alright...you can buy 1 pack of this set or 2 packs of Fallen Empires for the same price. Not even considering tournament legality and all that BS, you'd be a moron to pick Fallen Empires.
I agree with you completely, but your argument in relation to those 4 cards was bad.
IMO, I don't think I've ever seen worse examples of Card evaluation than I have for this set. Many people seem to think that BFZ doesn't have strong cards. Those people aren't paying attention. The Battle lands by themselves are going to hit standard like a freight train making everything more multi-color. We could be seeing the birth of a 5-color standard. At the very least, midrange decks are going to pick up a color. There are multiple entirely new strategies being opened up like colorless tribal, Eldrazi Processors, Eldrazi Ramp, and Allies. There are many individually powerful cards as well. People are complaining when we get a card that is built for these strategies, meaning its generally weaker than existing cards outside the strategies. Those people don't understand the concept of 'Strictly Different.'
Totally agree. That other guy got me off on the wrong tangent and I should've framed my argument better. In any case, to your point, I can't wait to see how this set shapes the rest of the formats. A tournament worthy colorless tribal would be interesting.
Anyway as a strictly modern player I don't expect much for all the decks to cherry pick something but there are cards that will see play. Knight Retreat will see play folks, and there are Tron pieces in here, and I think people are underestimating the impact of the tangos.
WotC balances for Limited and Standard, without power level resets, the game suffers as creep takes hold.
We have been on a reset since RTR, to be fair if they are going to reset the power level they should not be using the cash cows (zendikar and ravnica) during those periods all it does is hurts older player nostalgia.
Its like the stock market though isnt it? It goes down (Theros) it comes up (Khans) it goes up or stays even (Origins) and it goes perhaps down a bit (BfZ).
Again though, its all about expectation, I dont expect Modern staples to fall from the sky, but I do think we got a few here.
The damn point is that as a whole the value is not there, the "rares" are terrible glorified uncommons, and people should be allowed to voice their opinion about a *****ty product if they think the product is *****ty. That is why I posted in the first place....Customer's are supposed to voice their thoughts on products....it's called feedback.
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Quote from Wolfman about lack of Conspiracy spoilers-
"I'd say this about guarantees that it won't be up till this Friday, but considering the current track record, the ETA is now probably two weeks after the set has been out."
Quote from Sirius_B
Speak for yourself, if drawing *****-headed wurms makes social justice warriors cry I'll make it my favorite hobby.
The damn point is that as a whole the value is not there, the "rares" are terrible glorified uncommons, and people should be allowed to voice their opinion about a *****ty product if they think the product is *****ty. That is why I posted in the first place....Customer's are supposed to voice their thoughts on products....it's called feedback.
Except this isn't feedback - it is a bunch of kids ranting hyperbolic nonsense on the internet with no accountibility saying OMG THIS IS THE WORST SET EVER, NEXT HOMELANDS etc., which is what happens every spoiler season.
If you want to analyse in detail stating in a objective way why the mechanics might be parasitic, and how the set might not play well within itself and such then that would be a good start.
So.... what percentage of a new set's cards need to be playable in [format of your choice] for the set to be good?
69%
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Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
So.... what percentage of a new set's cards need to be playable in [format of your choice] for the set to be good?
Around 40 is a solid answer.
I checked and BFZ has about 20 (I even counted Blight Herder and the like as playable cards)
Unless you are going to go back and do the same for the previous sets, telling us what BFZ has is irrelevant. Realistically, what portion of cards in a new set can be playable?
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Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
So.... what percentage of a new set's cards need to be playable in [format of your choice] for the set to be good?
If it has a BW manland, then just the BW manland, which I guess would be less than 0.05% or something. But it has to be a happy to play playable one, not an "ugh, I guess I'll play this because it's all we have" one.
(Obv. the format in question is modern.)
Also, any modern playable cards that can conceivably be played in Twin don't count.
So.... what percentage of a new set's cards need to be playable in [format of your choice] for the set to be good?
Around 40 is a solid answer.
I checked and BFZ has about 20 (I even counted Blight Herder and the like as playable cards)
Unless you are going to go back and do the same for the previous sets, telling us what BFZ has is irrelevant. Realistically, what portion of cards in a new set can be playable?
I went back and checked KTK and DTK which I figured would have a good amount of playables, being some of the better sets in standard recently. KTK has close to 40 and DTK has well over 40.
I went back and checked KTK and DTK which I figured would have a good amount of playables, being some of the better sets in standard recently. KTK has close to 40 and DTK has well over 40.
Kudos. Thanks for doing something I was far to lazy too. Lists of cards would have been nice, but I'll take your word for it anyhow. We can safely say that by your standards, BFZ is worse than two of the best recent sets.
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Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
But for all our comparisons to fallen empires, homelands, etc- how does this set stack up against the weakest and poorest designed modern sets? Dragons Maze, Gatecrash, Born of the Gods, Journey into Nyx, Dark Ascension, Mirrodin Besieged? Is it worse than all of those?
If we compare BFZ to any of the first sets of a block where they had all new original mechanics and worldbuilding, yeah, this is by far the stinkiest job they've done in any modern set. But back in the 3 block structure, we had a lot of forgettable sets. They might have produced a couple playable cards, maybe even a few, but they were all phoned in. Even this set, as bad as it, will have some money cards like gideon. Yes, even the good cards will be boring and uninspired, but lets try to look back at all the other recent sets from the lens of overall quality and effort, rather than just what singletons were of note.
I'd say BFZ could indeed be worse than all of those sets, but I don't think I can call it this early. Maybe a year or two from now we'll all look back at this and say "Gee and we thought it couldn't get worse than megamorph"
But for all our comparisons to fallen empires, homelands, etc- how does this set stack up against the weakest and poorest designed modern sets? Dragons Maze, Gatecrash, Born of the Gods, Journey into Nyx, Dark Ascension, Mirrodin Besieged? Is it worse than all of those?
If we compare BFZ to any of the first sets of a block where they had all new original mechanics and worldbuilding, yeah, this is by far the stinkiest job they've done in any modern set. But back in the 3 block structure, we had a lot of forgettable sets. They might have produced a couple playable cards, maybe even a few, but they were all phoned in. Even this set, as bad as it, will have some money cards like gideon. Yes, even the good cards will be boring and uninspired, but lets try to look back at all the other recent sets from the lens of overall quality and effort, rather than just what singletons were of note.
I'd say BFZ could indeed be worse than all of those sets, but I don't think I can call it this early. Maybe a year or two from now we'll all look back at this and say "Gee and we thought it couldn't get worse than megamorph"
Okay, So I have an issue with this. Looking through dragons maze, yes, it was a bad set for standard. It was bad for limited, however Dragon's Maze gave us a ton of interesting unique cards. I like dragons maze a lot i retrospect for EDH and casual, where as this set has overall more boring forgettable cards.
Let's see if I can find 10 cards from each of sets I find more interesting or influential than I think most things in BFZ will be.
Deadbridge Chant
Aetherling
Boros Battleshaper
Debt to the Deathless
Malek, Izzet Paragon
Mirko Vosk, Mind Drinker
Nivix Cyclops
Possibility Storm (personal choice, I love red random effects)
Progenitor Mimic
Ral Zerek
Voice of Resurgence
Zhur-Taa Ancient
Blightsteel Colossus
The Sun Cycle
Bonehoard
Decimator Web
Glissa, The Traitor
Knowledge Pool
Mirrorworks
Myr Turbine
Phyrexian Rebirth
Preator's Counsel
Curse of Echoes
The captain cycle
Elbrus the Binding Blade
Felkenrath Aristocrat
Feed the Pack
Havengul Lich
Huntmaster of the Fell and Immerwolf
Mikeaus, The Unhallowed
Predator Ooze
Tragic Slip
Zombie Apocalypse
The three "weakest" sets of their corresponding blocks and I have all these cards I want to play, hell I could make a list for all the theros block, these are not cards that I consider great or anything. Well, some are great, but that isn't the point. These are cards that make me want to try and make them work in some deck, even if they aren't the best. They exist in interesting and unique design spaces. It's an issue I had with Dragon's of Takir and it's a problem I have here. There is a lot of flavor and unique design space they just refuse to tread here, making me lose out on a lot of the so bad its good feeling of casual.
This could very well be a better competitive setting than all of these sets, but its so bland in a lot of cases I just couldn't care about it. There are no cards screaming to me to try to build around besides like void winnowar or ulamog.
The damn point is that as a whole the value is not there, the "rares" are terrible glorified uncommons, and people should be allowed to voice their opinion about a *****ty product if they think the product is *****ty. That is why I posted in the first place....Customer's are supposed to voice their thoughts on products....it's called feedback.
Up until now, I've refrained from posting about my thoughts on BFZ. In general, I think people are too negative online and I include myself in that. With that in mind, I make a conscious effort to try to focus on the cards I like during spoiler season and just ignore those I don't. But, you're right. Customers should voice their opinions and give feedback. Also, I just want a place to vent my frustrations about this set, and this seems as good a place as any.
Please feel free to skip if you don't want to read another negative opinion about BFZ.
This set is utterly disappointing in almost every way it can be at this point: mechanics, flavor, and financial implications.
Ingest: It does almost nothing by itself. Milling/exiling a single card per attack is just not a useful ability. I understand this ability is to support other cards, and that it has "synergy" with the processors. I quote synergy, because Ingest isn't truly a synergistic ability in the way I generally think about it. Deathtouch and Trample are great examples of synergistic and basic abilities. They each do something useful by themselves, but they work even better when combined. Ingest is boring by itself and is solely useful if paired with the right cards. Maybe it wouldn't be so bad, except for:
Devoid: It literally does nothing. Everything I said about Ingest applies to Devoid except more so. It is utterly useless by itself. I can't express my disdain for this mechanic enough. Ghostly Flame, Ghostflame Sliver, and Ghostfire were cool solo cards in the past due to the power of white cards like Circle of Protection: Red or creatures with protection. But the era of such hate is over, and the ability doesn't translate well to a mechanic used on multiple cards. The flavor is pretty stupid as well. It is nonsense to pay :symb::symr: for a card and then pretend it is neither of those colors.
Converge: I don't hate this mechanic, but it isn't interesting. It would be fine as a filler mechanic if the others were more interesting, but they aren't.
Rally: I really like Tribal, but single-block, five-color tribes are the most frustrating kind of tribes for me personally. Again, I don't hate it, but it isn't interesting enough by itself to make-up for the failure of the other mechanics.
Eldrazi Scion: maybe I'm getting nit picky here, but why hasn't WotC created an ability word or keyword for token creation yet? If Converge and Rally are enough to get ability words, surely the paragraph of text creating Scions could be condensed to something like "Generate an Eldrazi Scion" or an ability phrase like "Scion generation - When this enters the battlefield...".
Landfall: The ability everyone - including me - wanted to return. Maybe my expectations were too high, but I am not excited about the new cards with the ability. At least from my perspective, a lot of the appeal of landfall came from how it hit the right aggressive notes in limited and constructed. I enjoyed the faster draft environment of the original Zendikar. I have to believe that others did too, or Landfall wouldn't have been nearly as popular. For it to feel so scaled back this time around is disappointing.
Speaking of draft, I'm one of the people that enjoyed Zendikar but did not enjoy Rise. Unfortunately, BFZ looks like it leans more towards the Rise side of the spectrum and I am not excited about playing it. At the moment, I have no intention of going to FNM drafts for it, and I don't even know if I'll make the pre-release.
Next issue: flavor. Zendikar was awesome! I loved the Indiana Jones, high adventure feel of the set. Rise took that all away and BFZ does not bring it back. Not only does this disappoint me in the present, but it has also killed my interest in a return to my favorite set, Innistrad, because of how it was changed by the events in Avacyn Restored. I want classic horror back, not angels vs. demons. I really hope WotC will stop messing up popular worlds.
Finally, the extremely limited "full art" non-basics are not a healthy addition to the game in my opinion. This post is long enough without going into a detailed financial analysis of why, but they definitely reek of the same tactics used by comic book companies to sell more copies back in the 90s. Gimmicks like limited edition covers worked for awhile, but then the industry collapsed. Hopefully, Magic stays healthy, but I sincerely don't believe that such exclusives are the way to promote that health.
If you like the set, then good for you. I really hope you have a lot of fun playing it. It definitely doesn't suit my palate. I needed a break from Magic anyway, and this set has given me a lot of reasons to take one.
Okay, So I have an issue with this. Looking through dragons maze, yes, it was a bad set for standard. It was bad for limited, however Dragon's Maze gave us a ton of interesting unique cards. I like dragons maze a lot i retrospect for EDH and casual, where as this set has overall more boring forgettable cards.
Let's see if I can find 10 cards from each of sets I find more interesting or influential than I think most things in BFZ will be.
Deadbridge Chant
Aetherling
Boros Battleshaper
Debt to the Deathless
Malek, Izzet Paragon
Mirko Vosk, Mind Drinker
Nivix Cyclops
Possibility Storm (personal choice, I love red random effects)
Progenitor Mimic
Ral Zerek
Voice of Resurgence
Zhur-Taa Ancient
Blightsteel Colossus
The Sun Cycle
Bonehoard
Decimator Web
Glissa, The Traitor
Knowledge Pool
Mirrorworks
Myr Turbine
Phyrexian Rebirth
Preator's Counsel
Curse of Echoes
The captain cycle
Elbrus the Binding Blade
Felkenrath Aristocrat
Feed the Pack
Havengul Lich
Huntmaster of the Fell and Immerwolf
Mikeaus, The Unhallowed
Predator Ooze
Tragic Slip
Zombie Apocalypse
The three "weakest" sets of their corresponding blocks and I have all these cards I want to play, hell I could make a list for all the theros block, these are not cards that I consider great or anything. Well, some are great, but that isn't the point. These are cards that make me want to try and make them work in some deck, even if they aren't the best. They exist in interesting and unique design spaces. It's an issue I had with Dragon's of Takir and it's a problem I have here. There is a lot of flavor and unique design space they just refuse to tread here, making me lose out on a lot of the so bad its good feeling of casual.
This could very well be a better competitive setting than all of these sets, but its so bland in a lot of cases I just couldn't care about it. There are no cards screaming to me to try to build around besides like void winnowar or ulamog.
I think that in terms of producing memorable cards, all those sets indeed easily whooped BFZ. Wizards usually throws in a lot of very interesting one-off unique cards into as many sets as it can, albeit usually neutered by development, but whether its an unplayable jar of eyeballs or a crazy possibility storm or just something intriguing like predator ooze, theres usually a quota of a few per set. BFZ has its few like void winnower, but boy there is a lot less than normal. In terms of interesting cards that push the design envelope, eh, none of the walkers even do it. Hada, Hedron Grinder is just Ink-Treader Nephilim slightly more restricted, we already had radiate too. I just reread every other card in the set, and march from the tomb is the only other interesting card, and its needlessly restricted to allies. I mean theres the lands, blighted cataract does something they haven't committed to in all these years, unconditional CA at EoT from a land, spawning bed is a neat riff on stalking stones, the cycles are decent, but lands can't drive a set on its own.
But in terms of mechanics? I think even DGM, DKA, MBS had some higher effort put into their mechanics than BFZ. Fuse did something new, better than anything in BFZ. Fateful hour and undying weren't exactly groundbreaking, thats a tougher competition for worst. Living Weapon was a contest winning mechanic, so credit where that ones due, Battle Cry on the other hand was meh.
First off, complaining that this set only gave you specifically 4 cards to put in your edh deck is dumb. You are basically saying that wizards should just design sets exclusively for you and everyone else doesn't matter.
Second, why on earth would we be ignoring lands in a set for which one if its main themes is land? If we were analyzing Khans, would you say 'ignoring multi-color cards...'
In any case, your revised estimate of 4 is similarly ridiculous. Ignoring lands, as you say, and ignoring low impact cards and bad commanders, here are a bunch of high impact playable EDH cards...
...There are many more playable EDH cards in BFZ besides these, but these are the big flashy ones.
- Manite
You still paid money for the cards, didn't you? When's the last time you ever played any fallen empires card in ANY format? Not to mention, a lot of people still play with poop decks against their friends at the kitchen table. Only difference is that back then, they were all poop decks.
Breeding Pit, Goblin Grenade and Hymn to Tourach, High Tide (made a Legacy deck), the storage lands are Fall Empires cards that still see a fair amount of play, casual at least.
I think you've helped prove the point. Those 4 cards are all that's worth mentioning and even then, you can see the power creep in Breeding Pit vs. Awakening Zone. Again, when's the last time you ever played those 4 cards? The sets aren't getting worse. Everyone's expectations are.
- Manite
Anyway as a strictly modern player I don't expect much for all the decks to cherry pick something but there are cards that will see play. Knight Retreat will see play folks, and there are Tron pieces in here, and I think people are underestimating the impact of the tangos.
WotC balances for Limited and Standard, without power level resets, the game suffers as creep takes hold.
Spirits
Jesus, guys! Alright...you can buy 1 pack of this set or 2 packs of Fallen Empires for the same price. Not even considering tournament legality and all that BS, you'd be a moron to pick Fallen Empires.
I agree with you completely, but your argument in relation to those 4 cards was bad.
IMO, I don't think I've ever seen worse examples of Card evaluation than I have for this set. Many people seem to think that BFZ doesn't have strong cards. Those people aren't paying attention. The Battle lands by themselves are going to hit standard like a freight train making everything more multi-color. We could be seeing the birth of a 5-color standard. At the very least, midrange decks are going to pick up a color. There are multiple entirely new strategies being opened up like colorless tribal, Eldrazi Processors, Eldrazi Ramp, and Allies. There are many individually powerful cards as well. People are complaining when we get a card that is built for these strategies, meaning its generally weaker than existing cards outside the strategies. Those people don't understand the concept of 'Strictly Different.'
- Manite
Totally agree. That other guy got me off on the wrong tangent and I should've framed my argument better. In any case, to your point, I can't wait to see how this set shapes the rest of the formats. A tournament worthy colorless tribal would be interesting.
We have been on a reset since RTR, to be fair if they are going to reset the power level they should not be using the cash cows (zendikar and ravnica) during those periods all it does is hurts older player nostalgia.
Again though, its all about expectation, I dont expect Modern staples to fall from the sky, but I do think we got a few here.
Spirits
The damn point is that as a whole the value is not there, the "rares" are terrible glorified uncommons, and people should be allowed to voice their opinion about a *****ty product if they think the product is *****ty. That is why I posted in the first place....Customer's are supposed to voice their thoughts on products....it's called feedback.
"I'd say this about guarantees that it won't be up till this Friday, but considering the current track record, the ETA is now probably two weeks after the set has been out."
Quote from Sirius_B
Speak for yourself, if drawing *****-headed wurms makes social justice warriors cry I'll make it my favorite hobby.
Except this isn't feedback - it is a bunch of kids ranting hyperbolic nonsense on the internet with no accountibility saying OMG THIS IS THE WORST SET EVER, NEXT HOMELANDS etc., which is what happens every spoiler season.
If you want to analyse in detail stating in a objective way why the mechanics might be parasitic, and how the set might not play well within itself and such then that would be a good start.
69%
- Manite
I checked and BFZ has about 20 (I even counted Blight Herder and the like as playable cards)
Unless you are going to go back and do the same for the previous sets, telling us what BFZ has is irrelevant. Realistically, what portion of cards in a new set can be playable?
- Manite
If it has a BW manland, then just the BW manland, which I guess would be less than 0.05% or something. But it has to be a happy to play playable one, not an "ugh, I guess I'll play this because it's all we have" one.
(Obv. the format in question is modern.)
Also, any modern playable cards that can conceivably be played in Twin don't count.
- Manite
If the best you can say for a set is "at least it's not Fallen Empires" maybe you have problems.
If we compare BFZ to any of the first sets of a block where they had all new original mechanics and worldbuilding, yeah, this is by far the stinkiest job they've done in any modern set. But back in the 3 block structure, we had a lot of forgettable sets. They might have produced a couple playable cards, maybe even a few, but they were all phoned in. Even this set, as bad as it, will have some money cards like gideon. Yes, even the good cards will be boring and uninspired, but lets try to look back at all the other recent sets from the lens of overall quality and effort, rather than just what singletons were of note.
I'd say BFZ could indeed be worse than all of those sets, but I don't think I can call it this early. Maybe a year or two from now we'll all look back at this and say "Gee and we thought it couldn't get worse than megamorph"
Okay, So I have an issue with this. Looking through dragons maze, yes, it was a bad set for standard. It was bad for limited, however Dragon's Maze gave us a ton of interesting unique cards. I like dragons maze a lot i retrospect for EDH and casual, where as this set has overall more boring forgettable cards.
Let's see if I can find 10 cards from each of sets I find more interesting or influential than I think most things in BFZ will be.
Aetherling
Boros Battleshaper
Debt to the Deathless
Malek, Izzet Paragon
Mirko Vosk, Mind Drinker
Nivix Cyclops
Possibility Storm (personal choice, I love red random effects)
Progenitor Mimic
Ral Zerek
Voice of Resurgence
Zhur-Taa Ancient
Blightsteel Colossus
The Sun Cycle
Bonehoard
Decimator Web
Glissa, The Traitor
Knowledge Pool
Mirrorworks
Myr Turbine
Phyrexian Rebirth
Preator's Counsel
Curse of Echoes
The captain cycle
Elbrus the Binding Blade
Felkenrath Aristocrat
Feed the Pack
Havengul Lich
Huntmaster of the Fell and Immerwolf
Mikeaus, The Unhallowed
Predator Ooze
Tragic Slip
Zombie Apocalypse
The three "weakest" sets of their corresponding blocks and I have all these cards I want to play, hell I could make a list for all the theros block, these are not cards that I consider great or anything. Well, some are great, but that isn't the point. These are cards that make me want to try and make them work in some deck, even if they aren't the best. They exist in interesting and unique design spaces. It's an issue I had with Dragon's of Takir and it's a problem I have here. There is a lot of flavor and unique design space they just refuse to tread here, making me lose out on a lot of the so bad its good feeling of casual.
This could very well be a better competitive setting than all of these sets, but its so bland in a lot of cases I just couldn't care about it. There are no cards screaming to me to try to build around besides like void winnowar or ulamog.
Up until now, I've refrained from posting about my thoughts on BFZ. In general, I think people are too negative online and I include myself in that. With that in mind, I make a conscious effort to try to focus on the cards I like during spoiler season and just ignore those I don't. But, you're right. Customers should voice their opinions and give feedback. Also, I just want a place to vent my frustrations about this set, and this seems as good a place as any.
Please feel free to skip if you don't want to read another negative opinion about BFZ.
This set is utterly disappointing in almost every way it can be at this point: mechanics, flavor, and financial implications.
Ingest: It does almost nothing by itself. Milling/exiling a single card per attack is just not a useful ability. I understand this ability is to support other cards, and that it has "synergy" with the processors. I quote synergy, because Ingest isn't truly a synergistic ability in the way I generally think about it. Deathtouch and Trample are great examples of synergistic and basic abilities. They each do something useful by themselves, but they work even better when combined. Ingest is boring by itself and is solely useful if paired with the right cards. Maybe it wouldn't be so bad, except for:
Devoid: It literally does nothing. Everything I said about Ingest applies to Devoid except more so. It is utterly useless by itself. I can't express my disdain for this mechanic enough. Ghostly Flame, Ghostflame Sliver, and Ghostfire were cool solo cards in the past due to the power of white cards like Circle of Protection: Red or creatures with protection. But the era of such hate is over, and the ability doesn't translate well to a mechanic used on multiple cards. The flavor is pretty stupid as well. It is nonsense to pay :symb::symr: for a card and then pretend it is neither of those colors.
Converge: I don't hate this mechanic, but it isn't interesting. It would be fine as a filler mechanic if the others were more interesting, but they aren't.
Rally: I really like Tribal, but single-block, five-color tribes are the most frustrating kind of tribes for me personally. Again, I don't hate it, but it isn't interesting enough by itself to make-up for the failure of the other mechanics.
Eldrazi Scion: maybe I'm getting nit picky here, but why hasn't WotC created an ability word or keyword for token creation yet? If Converge and Rally are enough to get ability words, surely the paragraph of text creating Scions could be condensed to something like "Generate an Eldrazi Scion" or an ability phrase like "Scion generation - When this enters the battlefield...".
Landfall: The ability everyone - including me - wanted to return. Maybe my expectations were too high, but I am not excited about the new cards with the ability. At least from my perspective, a lot of the appeal of landfall came from how it hit the right aggressive notes in limited and constructed. I enjoyed the faster draft environment of the original Zendikar. I have to believe that others did too, or Landfall wouldn't have been nearly as popular. For it to feel so scaled back this time around is disappointing.
Speaking of draft, I'm one of the people that enjoyed Zendikar but did not enjoy Rise. Unfortunately, BFZ looks like it leans more towards the Rise side of the spectrum and I am not excited about playing it. At the moment, I have no intention of going to FNM drafts for it, and I don't even know if I'll make the pre-release.
Next issue: flavor. Zendikar was awesome! I loved the Indiana Jones, high adventure feel of the set. Rise took that all away and BFZ does not bring it back. Not only does this disappoint me in the present, but it has also killed my interest in a return to my favorite set, Innistrad, because of how it was changed by the events in Avacyn Restored. I want classic horror back, not angels vs. demons. I really hope WotC will stop messing up popular worlds.
Finally, the extremely limited "full art" non-basics are not a healthy addition to the game in my opinion. This post is long enough without going into a detailed financial analysis of why, but they definitely reek of the same tactics used by comic book companies to sell more copies back in the 90s. Gimmicks like limited edition covers worked for awhile, but then the industry collapsed. Hopefully, Magic stays healthy, but I sincerely don't believe that such exclusives are the way to promote that health.
If you like the set, then good for you. I really hope you have a lot of fun playing it. It definitely doesn't suit my palate. I needed a break from Magic anyway, and this set has given me a lot of reasons to take one.
I think that in terms of producing memorable cards, all those sets indeed easily whooped BFZ. Wizards usually throws in a lot of very interesting one-off unique cards into as many sets as it can, albeit usually neutered by development, but whether its an unplayable jar of eyeballs or a crazy possibility storm or just something intriguing like predator ooze, theres usually a quota of a few per set. BFZ has its few like void winnower, but boy there is a lot less than normal. In terms of interesting cards that push the design envelope, eh, none of the walkers even do it. Hada, Hedron Grinder is just Ink-Treader Nephilim slightly more restricted, we already had radiate too. I just reread every other card in the set, and march from the tomb is the only other interesting card, and its needlessly restricted to allies. I mean theres the lands, blighted cataract does something they haven't committed to in all these years, unconditional CA at EoT from a land, spawning bed is a neat riff on stalking stones, the cycles are decent, but lands can't drive a set on its own.
But in terms of mechanics? I think even DGM, DKA, MBS had some higher effort put into their mechanics than BFZ. Fuse did something new, better than anything in BFZ. Fateful hour and undying weren't exactly groundbreaking, thats a tougher competition for worst. Living Weapon was a contest winning mechanic, so credit where that ones due, Battle Cry on the other hand was meh.