So, one of the things I've always enjoyed about Magic is the complexity and exploring cards onion layers.
Did you ever read a card initially and have one thought, then seen it in another context, and then another yet again? There are lots of good examples, but necropotence jumps out at me.
I unlike a lot of people it seems do not hate BFZ thus far. I play a lot of draft, and prefer sealed tournaments. I also am not to off put about reading into a meta that hasn't even formed yet for constructed.
However, I do note a disturbing lack of quirkiness, complexity, or that certain something? It just feels very... straight forward so far.
Also where are my elves, goblins, merfolk, Kor, and allies?
the set does seem super simple. compare it to dragons of tarkir and the set loooks underpowered and boring
That's weird. I find Dragons to be one of the worst sets in the last couple of years.
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Compared to Khans block yes. Dragons was fun and contained powerful cards, some of which defined standard and made their way into modern decks. The commands themselves are all quite solid, and of the 5 commands 3 of them see modern play.
Khans limited was really fun. It's the block that got me back into magic after an 8 year absence.
I'd like to give BFZ a chance (I missed zendikar block altogether) but I'm not impressed at all. Some of the cards seems very vanilla.
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Standard Arena: Eh? Gruul or Die
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now: G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record) C Eldrazi Tron (9-5) UG Infect RW Burn
I actually think the set is too complex, because of it's lack of clean design. For example, Forerunner of Slaughter cares about colorless creatures, while Herald of Kozilek and Molten Nursery cares about colorless spells and suddenly Drowner of Hope cares about Eldrazi Scion.
I know the Eldrazi this time does not have a single unifying theme but not even the "colorless" theme is unified, meaning you have to always keep track of each cards cares about what, which adds to complexity. Then you have very unclean cards like Fathom Feeder that just have very tacked on abilities. And cards that pull other cards from exile. Compared to KTK block (with Manifest being the only remotely complex mechanic) this set is very complex and counter intuitive...
I think the word you're looking for is depth, not complexity.
Colorless semss abit of a downside since alot of the cards requires you to have one so they do something and yet what they do isn't superior to other cards that do something similar but without the drawback.
Kinda funny how Wizards decided to tone down Protection from colors right ebfore a set that would be effective agaisnt protection givinng them a positive thing
I don't get why everything is overcosted jank. Where are the decent one and two mana creatures and spells? Why does something have to cost atleast 3 before it does anything decent in this set?
That skyrider elf looks like it could be good in 5 color aggro though.
I don't get why everything is overcosted jank. Where are the decent one and two mana creatures and spells? Why does something have to cost atleast 3 before it does anything decent in this set?
Mostly because they aren't spoiling commons and uncommons. Even still, there are plenty of important Low CMC cards (<3) already spoiled.
...That list comes out to 21 (maybe/)playable cards spoiled with cmc<3. How many more do you want? It seems too me that most cards of cmc<3 that have been spoiled could be playable.
Maybe I'm weird though and prefer environments with lots of maybe playable cards to environments where the best deck and cards are obvious. I love the fact that BFZ cards are hard to evaluate. IT will make for a more interesting standard.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
From what I see so far, my take is "I'd like to crack a pack or two to get some fodder for my Commander decks, but I don't want to go anywhere near drafting it." It looks like a nightmare to draft. Everything's too high-CMC. Everything's scattered around, do you draft Eldrazi, allies, elementals, 5-color matters, awaken lands, what?
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From what I see so far, my take is "I'd like to crack a pack or two to get some fodder for my Commander decks, but I don't want to go anywhere near drafting it." It looks like a nightmare to draft. Everything's too high-CMC. Everything's scattered around, do you draft Eldrazi, allies, elementals, 5-color matters, awaken lands, what?
Oh no..... Wizards isn't spoon feeding me archetypes. Whatever will I do...;)
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
Is this a thread about complexity or is it yet another whiny thread about powerlevel, which is all but useless as any and all magic forum has historically been terrible at evaluating cards.
In terms of complexity, I also disagree with OP a lot. I would say, this set is a lot more complex than Khans of Tarkir, and up there with Fate Reforged, which was probably the most complex set we had in a very long time.
This stems mostly from the Eldrazi cards, who have a lot going on. The whole devoid (no, that card does not work with Pyromancer's Goggles), ingest and processor thing is one of the more out-there things they have done in a while. In contrast with this, all the mechanics from KTK are very simple.
Also complexity =/= good set. I think they are setting up BFZ Eldrazi as a very interesting tempo deck in Grixis colours, or ramp deck with anything that plays green. For example, the reason horribly awry can only counter creature spells, is because it would be pretty damn strong with Herald of Kozilek if it would be able to counter anything, and then proceed to feed processors with the spoils.
My favorite format is sealed and so far this set looks like it is going to have a terrible sealed format.
Really? The advantage of having a set that is not stocked with overly powerful rares (like Fate Reforged) is that it makes the sealed/draft environment a lot better. I mean, if sealed to you means getting lucky and smashing people with your overpowered bomb, then sure, but I think this is probably going to be one of the most interesting formats to date. They need to balance 8/9 common tramplers with decks that like to play grizzly bears. How does that even happen? I think the reason so many rares are 'bad' in this set is because the limited environment required a LOT of sacrifices.
So refreshing, someone with an actual clue and even articulate about it
Thumbs up from me sir and tip off my hat!
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I'm excited for this set. It's clearly designed for a limited environment.
1. Rares are not overpowered bombs. Most of the power is in the uncommon slot, which is more consistent and reliable for drafting.
2. Overall power level is low, so experimental cards can have less of a dramatic effect on constructed.
2. The sheer amount of archetype complexity. Someone said it well: So many different eldrazi focus on different things: colorless creatures, colorless spells, scions, ramp, sacrificing, exiling... It makes for some interesting archetypes. That's not counting interesting interactions with Awaken (which also serves as a solid mana sink for limited), Ally decks, Converge decks, landfall decksm and probably s lot of other possibilities we haven't seen.
3. Not really a point in its favor, but so much of a draft's quality is in the commons, which we've seen very little of. I can't exactly say it's going to be good to draft, but it is quite clear it was designed to be drafted.
No. When I posted this thread my thought process was that MARO had announced that this was "the beginning of a new era of magic."
I was curious what others thought of the set thus far. Does it feel like an expert level expansion, or are the expert sets being dumbed down for the masses in this new era?
I think you made some great points, actually. If I'd wanted to talk about power level I would have posted as such. I do think you hit the nail on the head that evaluating power level is contextual, and very difficult unless... well seen in context; which none of us has yet.
Perhaps the set feels "linear" "straight forward" due to to some of the design constraints you mentioned?
Making 7-10 drops playable, and not getting run over left and right would seem to be quite a balancing act.
Lastly, it had been quite a while since I read a paragraph on a card, and said "what," and maybe that's just magic today not just this set. I do think it's worth considering in this new era however, hence the post.
Lastly, it had been quite a while since I read a paragraph on a card, and said "what," and maybe that's just magic today not just this set. I do think it's worth considering in this new era however, hence the post.
If by 'what' you mean, 'what am I supposed to do with this', then I call BS. Can you honestly tell me that you thought Jeskai Ascendancy would form the basis of powerful standard and modern combo decks? Can you honestly tell me that you knew Treasure cruise] would be so broken as to become restricted in vintage? I might agree with the claim that magic today is simpler than it was a decade ago, but their is still plenty of suprises with today's cards.
If by 'what' you mean, 'I literally don't understand what this effect does' than I say great. A card being incomprehensible isn't good design. No one wants computers to be complicated, we just don't know how to make them simpler. Over the years, computer interfaces have become more and more user friendly and grockable. No one complains about this and you shouldn't complain that wizards isn't printing incomprehensible cards. The simple truth is that people won't play a game if they don't understand the pieces. This type of complexity is called Comprehension Complexity. You can find a good article discussing it, and other types of complexity below...
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
I don't get why everything is overcosted jank. Where are the decent one and two mana creatures and spells? Why does something have to cost atleast 3 before it does anything decent in this set?
Mostly because they aren't spoiling commons and uncommons. Even still, there are plenty of important Low CMC cards (<3) already spoiled.
...That list comes out to 21 (maybe/)playable cards spoiled with cmc<3. How many more do you want? It seems too me that most cards of cmc<3 that have been spoiled could be playable.
Maybe I'm weird though and prefer environments with lots of maybe playable cards to environments where the best deck and cards are obvious. I love the fact that BFZ cards are hard to evaluate. IT will make for a more interesting standard.
That conditional counter Horribly Awry is god awful. Most of those cards you posted apart from the new duels and Sylvan Scrying are really really bad.
I don't get why everything is overcosted jank. Where are the decent one and two mana creatures and spells? Why does something have to cost atleast 3 before it does anything decent in this set?
Mostly because they aren't spoiling commons and uncommons. Even still, there are plenty of important Low CMC cards (<3) already spoiled.
...That list comes out to 21 (maybe/)playable cards spoiled with cmc<3. How many more do you want? It seems too me that most cards of cmc<3 that have been spoiled could be playable.
Maybe I'm weird though and prefer environments with lots of maybe playable cards to environments where the best deck and cards are obvious. I love the fact that BFZ cards are hard to evaluate. IT will make for a more interesting standard.
That conditional counter Horribly Awry is god awful. Most of those cards you posted apart from the new duels and Sylvan Scrying are really really bad.
That conditional counter Horribly Awry is god awful. Most of those cards you posted apart from the new duels and Sylvan Scrying are really really bad.
No they're not. They just aren't... I really don't understand how you are evaluating these things. Most of these aren't going to touch modern. Most of these will see standard play though. All of them are efficient. In what possible world can you consider an X/X flier for X (from 2-5 mana) with Three relevant suppported tribes 'really really bad'. In what possible world can you consider a 3/2 tribal two drop with upside 'really really bad'. I just don't understand. What is going through your head?
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Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
The latter what, in fact. As in what does this card do?
Perhaps you are right. If there were too many cards that were inscrutable at first glance it might be a bad thing or an indication of poor design if done to often. However there is some joy to be found in truly discovering a cards power, having to parse it out, and it not being spoon fed. Jeskai Ascendancy is a pretty great recent example actually. So does this set have such a card, or level of complexity? What do you think? Or are you just ripping me?
Good links! I'll check them out, and I'm sure others will as well.
So far the lands are amazing in this set, they are the core of the set and how to use your lands is what this set is about.
A lot of the others cards are a little meh, yet most of the meh cards are rares and have little bearing on limited.
I think it is actually very complex you have to balance your exile pool for your processors and the sequencing of your allies.
Most of the limited cards are not yet spoiled give it time.
The problem with dragons was fate reforged haha and that dash was a little too strong without good instant speed removal especially since the removal there was was the in the same colours as dash. Khans though was a ton of fun, a slow format in compassion to recent sets but very versatile and deeper than expected.
It's useless to evaluate the Limited environment based on the actual spoiled cards, since commons define Limited and we've seen nearly none of them. What we can do is speculate on the archetypes- BFZ looks to be somewhere between Modern Masters, where every color pair has a fairly linear game plan to follow, and Innistrad, where there are many sideways directions to go within each 'faction'. It's clear at this point that each color pair has a "suggested" theme, that new players can follow without getting too lost-
BR- Eldrazi Tribal (Aggro)
BG- Eldrazi Scion Sacrifice Value (Midrange)
UR- Colorless Spells (Tempo, maybe, this is the least sure one)
UB- Eldrazi Processors (Control)
RW- Allies Rally (Aggro)
GW- Allies GW Beats (Midrange)
WB- Allies for Grindy Value (Control)
All the factions have at least one aggro, midrange, and control strategy, and each is most supported in a specific color pair. But, the various mechanics have tons of interactions (Landfall wants you to play more lands, which helps you cast expensive Eldrazi, colorless spells make it easier to run a multicolor manabase for Converge, Devoid means you can pick up tribal synergies in every color, Awakened lands are colorless creatures for Devoid, Awaken wants you to play more lands to synergize with Landfall, etc.). Therefore, there's a good balance between archetypes you have to invest in heavily (Ingest and Rally), and strategies you can mix and match for a ton of decision points during draft or Sealed deckbuilding (lands-matter, colors-matter, colorless matters). So, the skeleton of Limited looks fun, but to judge any given strategy, let alone the whole format, with 10% of the as-fan spoiled, is ludicrous.
The latter what, in fact. As in what does this card do?
Perhaps you are right. If there were too many cards that were inscrutable at first glance it might be a bad thing or an indication of poor design if done to often. However there is some joy to be found in truly discovering a cards power, having to parse it out, and it not being spoon fed. Jeskai Ascendancy is a pretty great recent example actually. So does this set have such a card, or level of complexity? What do you think? Or are you just ripping me?
Good links! I'll check them out, and I'm sure others will as well.
Jeskai ascendancy is a card that's hard to evaluate, not one that is hard to understand. Its very easy to read the card if you have spent any time playing magic. As a rule, wizards doesn't print cards that are hard to comprehend because they are bad for the long term health of the game.
This set has tons of cards that are hard to evaluate. The fact that you think all the cards are really really bad is direct evidence for my claim that they are hard to evaluate. Here are just a few cards that I've seen that could be very good, or totally unplayable and I have no idea which...
Kiora, Master of depths - The -2 is very strong. The +1 is very weak. It can't protect itself at all but starts at a high loyalty. Could be a standard powerhouse CA engine, could never find a deck and end up as a 4 dollar rare like the last Kiora.
Dragonmaster Outcast - The opponent almost has to remove this, and them spending removal on a 1 drop in a format defined by 3 cmc removal seems very good. It also is absurd with Ojutai's Command. And yet this is a card that does nothing until turn 6ish and gets totally answered by a decent boardwipe even when it works.
Retreat to Kazandu - There were so many +1/+1 counter synergy cards in Khans Block. Fetches letting you gain three life every turn is great too. This isn't going to break standard, but I could definitely see it being played in standard with the right deck. I'm skeptical though.
Retreat To Hagra - Fetches are very good. Build this in a deck that takes advantage of efficient token production and now your tokens are trading with Siege Rhinos while your fetches kill your opponent and pad your life total. Could become an important tool in a very strange type of control deck. I'm very skeptical though.
Woodland Wanderer - A lot of people think this card is bad. I'm not convinced. Its a 6/6 vigilant trampler for 4. It comes down at the same time Seige Rhino does then laughs at the puny little things. As a body, this is at polukranos levels of efficiency. But its also just a big dumb beater that dies to removal. Could be a new midrange powerhouse, or a 1 dollar rare.
Undergrowth Champion - ?!?!? Terrible top dock, but its a 4+/4+ for three in your opening hand. Its good, but is it actually good enough.
Exert Influence - Control effects are very strong. At 4-5 colors, this is efficient in today's midrange dominated standards. But it requires 4-5 color for it to be good. Fortunately, 4-5 color is easy.
Void Winnower - Is this a good ability. I honestly can't tell.
Endless one - Always on Curve with +1/+1 counter synergy and tribal synergy. Great top dock. This will see play if their is a colorless matters or +1/+1 counters matter deck that is good enough in standard. Whether or not those decks exist is dependent on what other cards get printed.
From Beyond - No board impact until turn 5. But tribal synergy is great. Tutors are great to. ?!?!?
Deathless Behemoth - How easy are Scions to produce? My guess is not easy enough to make this playable, but I haven't seen all scion makers yet.
Dust Stalker - Trades with Rhino at same cost. Potential for etb trigger shenanigans. Tribal Synergies. Could be good. Or worthless...
Fathom Feeder - Supports Processor. Trades up in the early game. CA generator in the late game. Tribal synergy. Seems good, but...
I'm tired. There are more cards besides these as well that could be playable in standard. These are cards that are hard to evaluate. There impossible to evaluate when you only know part of the environment.
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Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
The latter what, in fact. As in what does this card do?
Perhaps you are right. If there were too many cards that were inscrutable at first glance it might be a bad thing or an indication of poor design if done to often. However there is some joy to be found in truly discovering a cards power, having to parse it out, and it not being spoon fed. Jeskai Ascendancy is a pretty great recent example actually. So does this set have such a card, or level of complexity? What do you think? Or are you just ripping me?
Good links! I'll check them out, and I'm sure others will as well.
Jeskai ascendancy is a card that's hard to evaluate, not one that is hard to understand. Its very easy to read the card if you have spent any time playing magic. As a rule, wizards doesn't print cards that are hard to comprehend because they are bad for the long term health of the game.
This set has tons of cards that are hard to evaluate. The fact that you think all the cards are really really bad is direct evidence for my claim that they are hard to evaluate. Here are just a few cards that I've seen that could be very good, or totally unplayable and I have no idea which...
Kiora, Master of depths - The -2 is very strong. The +1 is very weak. It can't protect itself at all but starts at a high loyalty. Could be a standard powerhouse CA engine, could never find a deck and end up as a 4 dollar rare like the last Kiora.
Dragonmaster Outcast - The opponent almost has to remove this, and them spending removal on a 1 drop in a format defined by 3 cmc removal seems very good. It also is absurd with Ojutai's Command. And yet this is a card that does nothing until turn 6ish and gets totally answered by a decent boardwipe even when it works.
Retreat to Kazandu - There were so many +1/+1 counter synergy cards in Khans Block. Fetches letting you gain three life every turn is great too. This isn't going to break standard, but I could definitely see it being played in standard with the right deck. I'm skeptical though.
Retreat To Hagra - Fetches are very good. Build this in a deck that takes advantage of efficient token production and now your tokens are trading with Siege Rhinos while your fetches kill your opponent and pad your life total. Could become an important tool in a very strange type of control deck. I'm very skeptical though.
Woodland Wanderer - A lot of people think this card is bad. I'm not convinced. Its a 6/6 vigilant trampler for 4. It comes down at the same time Seige Rhino does then laughs at the puny little things. As a body, this is at polukranos levels of efficiency. But its also just a big dumb beater that dies to removal. Could be a new midrange powerhouse, or a 1 dollar rare.
Undergrowth Champion - ?!?!? Terrible top dock, but its a 4+/4+ for three in your opening hand. Its good, but is it actually good enough.
Exert Influence - Control effects are very strong. At 4-5 colors, this is efficient in today's midrange dominated standards. But it requires 4-5 color for it to be good. Fortunately, 4-5 color is easy.
Void Winnower - Is this a good ability. I honestly can't tell.
Endless one - Always on Curve with +1/+1 counter synergy and tribal synergy. Great top dock. This will see play if their is a colorless matters or +1/+1 counters matter deck that is good enough in standard. Whether or not those decks exist is dependent on what other cards get printed.
From Beyond - No board impact until turn 5. But tribal synergy is great. Tutors are great to. ?!?!?
Deathless Behemoth - How easy are Scions to produce? My guess is not easy enough to make this playable, but I haven't seen all scion makers yet.
Dust Stalker - Trades with Rhino at same cost. Potential for etb trigger shenanigans. Tribal Synergies. Could be good. Or worthless...
Fathom Feeder - Supports Processor. Trades up in the early game. CA generator in the late game. Tribal synergy. Seems good, but...
I'm tired. There are more cards besides these as well that could be playable in standard. These are cards that are hard to evaluate. There impossible to evaluate when you only know part of the environment.
I personally think that Exert Influence isn't gonna see play. The manabase is there, but Bring to Light fits the spot of 5 mana converge sorcery better.
I personally think that Exert Influence isn't gonna see play. The manabase is there, but Bring to Light fits the spot of 5 mana converge sorcery better.
Wow, I don't disagree at all, I'm just surprised that you only questioned one of my analyses.
I still think Exert influence is better in a 4 color deck than Bring to light is in a 4 color deck. Taking control of Siege Rhino or Tasigur seems way better than tutoring up random answer 3 against midrange. Woodland Wanderer is another card that is better in 4 color than 5 color and belongs in the same deck. Granted, I'm assuming the same midrange threats seen now will continue to dominate, which isn't a safe assumption to make.
And there is always the fact that Abzan needs to pick a 4th color and it might as well be blue. In this case, Exert influence would become a sideboard card for the mirror.
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Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
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Did you ever read a card initially and have one thought, then seen it in another context, and then another yet again? There are lots of good examples, but necropotence jumps out at me.
I unlike a lot of people it seems do not hate BFZ thus far. I play a lot of draft, and prefer sealed tournaments. I also am not to off put about reading into a meta that hasn't even formed yet for constructed.
However, I do note a disturbing lack of quirkiness, complexity, or that certain something? It just feels very... straight forward so far.
Also where are my elves, goblins, merfolk, Kor, and allies?
That's all I've got. Am I wrong? Am I right?
That's weird. I find Dragons to be one of the worst sets in the last couple of years.
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Khans limited was really fun. It's the block that got me back into magic after an 8 year absence.
I'd like to give BFZ a chance (I missed zendikar block altogether) but I'm not impressed at all. Some of the cards seems very vanilla.
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now:
G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record)
C Eldrazi Tron (9-5)
UG Infect
RW Burn
I know the Eldrazi this time does not have a single unifying theme but not even the "colorless" theme is unified, meaning you have to always keep track of each cards cares about what, which adds to complexity. Then you have very unclean cards like Fathom Feeder that just have very tacked on abilities. And cards that pull other cards from exile. Compared to KTK block (with Manifest being the only remotely complex mechanic) this set is very complex and counter intuitive...
I think the word you're looking for is depth, not complexity.
BGU Control
R Aggro
Standard - For Fun
BG Auras
Kinda funny how Wizards decided to tone down Protection from colors right ebfore a set that would be effective agaisnt protection givinng them a positive thing
That skyrider elf looks like it could be good in 5 color aggro though.
Mostly because they aren't spoiling commons and uncommons. Even still, there are plenty of important Low CMC cards (<3) already spoiled.
Playable
Maybe Playable
...That list comes out to 21 (maybe/)playable cards spoiled with cmc<3. How many more do you want? It seems too me that most cards of cmc<3 that have been spoiled could be playable.
Maybe I'm weird though and prefer environments with lots of maybe playable cards to environments where the best deck and cards are obvious. I love the fact that BFZ cards are hard to evaluate. IT will make for a more interesting standard.
- Manite
I guess that goes against the initial thread post, I put up, but so be it. I had forgotten about it when I put the post up, and I try to be fair.
Very stoked for some prerelease action, and sealed pptqs.
Oh no..... Wizards isn't spoon feeding me archetypes. Whatever will I do...;)
- Manite
So refreshing, someone with an actual clue and even articulate about it
Thumbs up from me sir and tip off my hat!
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1. Rares are not overpowered bombs. Most of the power is in the uncommon slot, which is more consistent and reliable for drafting.
2. Overall power level is low, so experimental cards can have less of a dramatic effect on constructed.
2. The sheer amount of archetype complexity. Someone said it well: So many different eldrazi focus on different things: colorless creatures, colorless spells, scions, ramp, sacrificing, exiling... It makes for some interesting archetypes. That's not counting interesting interactions with Awaken (which also serves as a solid mana sink for limited), Ally decks, Converge decks, landfall decksm and probably s lot of other possibilities we haven't seen.
3. Not really a point in its favor, but so much of a draft's quality is in the commons, which we've seen very little of. I can't exactly say it's going to be good to draft, but it is quite clear it was designed to be drafted.
No. When I posted this thread my thought process was that MARO had announced that this was "the beginning of a new era of magic."
I was curious what others thought of the set thus far. Does it feel like an expert level expansion, or are the expert sets being dumbed down for the masses in this new era?
I think you made some great points, actually. If I'd wanted to talk about power level I would have posted as such. I do think you hit the nail on the head that evaluating power level is contextual, and very difficult unless... well seen in context; which none of us has yet.
Perhaps the set feels "linear" "straight forward" due to to some of the design constraints you mentioned?
Making 7-10 drops playable, and not getting run over left and right would seem to be quite a balancing act.
Lastly, it had been quite a while since I read a paragraph on a card, and said "what," and maybe that's just magic today not just this set. I do think it's worth considering in this new era however, hence the post.
If by 'what' you mean, 'what am I supposed to do with this', then I call BS. Can you honestly tell me that you thought Jeskai Ascendancy would form the basis of powerful standard and modern combo decks? Can you honestly tell me that you knew Treasure cruise] would be so broken as to become restricted in vintage? I might agree with the claim that magic today is simpler than it was a decade ago, but their is still plenty of suprises with today's cards.
If by 'what' you mean, 'I literally don't understand what this effect does' than I say great. A card being incomprehensible isn't good design. No one wants computers to be complicated, we just don't know how to make them simpler. Over the years, computer interfaces have become more and more user friendly and grockable. No one complains about this and you shouldn't complain that wizards isn't printing incomprehensible cards. The simple truth is that people won't play a game if they don't understand the pieces. This type of complexity is called Comprehension Complexity. You can find a good article discussing it, and other types of complexity below...
http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/mm/293
- Manite
That conditional counter Horribly Awry is god awful. Most of those cards you posted apart from the new duels and Sylvan Scrying are really really bad.
They might be bad, but they are playable.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
- Manite
Perhaps you are right. If there were too many cards that were inscrutable at first glance it might be a bad thing or an indication of poor design if done to often. However there is some joy to be found in truly discovering a cards power, having to parse it out, and it not being spoon fed. Jeskai Ascendancy is a pretty great recent example actually. So does this set have such a card, or level of complexity? What do you think? Or are you just ripping me?
Good links! I'll check them out, and I'm sure others will as well.
A lot of the others cards are a little meh, yet most of the meh cards are rares and have little bearing on limited.
I think it is actually very complex you have to balance your exile pool for your processors and the sequencing of your allies.
Most of the limited cards are not yet spoiled give it time.
The problem with dragons was fate reforged haha and that dash was a little too strong without good instant speed removal especially since the removal there was was the in the same colours as dash. Khans though was a ton of fun, a slow format in compassion to recent sets but very versatile and deeper than expected.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
BR- Eldrazi Tribal (Aggro)
BG- Eldrazi Scion Sacrifice Value (Midrange)
UR- Colorless Spells (Tempo, maybe, this is the least sure one)
UB- Eldrazi Processors (Control)
RW- Allies Rally (Aggro)
GW- Allies GW Beats (Midrange)
WB- Allies for Grindy Value (Control)
RG- Landfall Stompy (Aggro)
GU/x- Converge (Ramp/Midrange)
WU- Awaken (Control)
All the factions have at least one aggro, midrange, and control strategy, and each is most supported in a specific color pair. But, the various mechanics have tons of interactions (Landfall wants you to play more lands, which helps you cast expensive Eldrazi, colorless spells make it easier to run a multicolor manabase for Converge, Devoid means you can pick up tribal synergies in every color, Awakened lands are colorless creatures for Devoid, Awaken wants you to play more lands to synergize with Landfall, etc.). Therefore, there's a good balance between archetypes you have to invest in heavily (Ingest and Rally), and strategies you can mix and match for a ton of decision points during draft or Sealed deckbuilding (lands-matter, colors-matter, colorless matters). So, the skeleton of Limited looks fun, but to judge any given strategy, let alone the whole format, with 10% of the as-fan spoiled, is ludicrous.
Jeskai ascendancy is a card that's hard to evaluate, not one that is hard to understand. Its very easy to read the card if you have spent any time playing magic. As a rule, wizards doesn't print cards that are hard to comprehend because they are bad for the long term health of the game.
This set has tons of cards that are hard to evaluate. The fact that you think all the cards are really really bad is direct evidence for my claim that they are hard to evaluate. Here are just a few cards that I've seen that could be very good, or totally unplayable and I have no idea which...
I'm tired. There are more cards besides these as well that could be playable in standard. These are cards that are hard to evaluate. There impossible to evaluate when you only know part of the environment.
- Manite
I personally think that Exert Influence isn't gonna see play. The manabase is there, but Bring to Light fits the spot of 5 mana converge sorcery better.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Wow, I don't disagree at all, I'm just surprised that you only questioned one of my analyses.
I still think Exert influence is better in a 4 color deck than Bring to light is in a 4 color deck. Taking control of Siege Rhino or Tasigur seems way better than tutoring up random answer 3 against midrange. Woodland Wanderer is another card that is better in 4 color than 5 color and belongs in the same deck. Granted, I'm assuming the same midrange threats seen now will continue to dominate, which isn't a safe assumption to make.
And there is always the fact that Abzan needs to pick a 4th color and it might as well be blue. In this case, Exert influence would become a sideboard card for the mirror.
- Manite