We have threads going discussing the names of these, but we don't have any discussing their usage. This thread is about figuring out just how broken TangoLands + FetchLands are in standard. Consider the following mana base courtesy Patrick Chapin. The first five cards are the Tango(Battle) lands
This probably isn't optimal and only makes use of half the TangoLands, and yet it seems to be a very convincing five color mana base. your lands will enter the battlefield untapped almost always thanks to the raw power of fetches. Only 5 of your 25 lands are theoretically capable of entering the battlefield tapped. After turn two, assuming you drew at least two Fetches/Basics in the top 8 cards (P=0.82), all of your lands will always enter the battlefield untapped. This is insane.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
I'm glad this thread exists. I can't believe how long it's taken people to realize, especially since everyone knows how good fetch+dual manabases are from older formats. The key is that since Standard has no Wastelands, Stifles, Blood Moons, Fulminator Mages, etc. and is slower, it will almost certainly support the greediest manabases out of all the formats for the next 6 months.
Edit: Also, sorry that I missed your thread when it was in the proper place.
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I primarily play limited, so most of my spoiler season comments view cards through that lens.
I'm glad this thread exists. I can't believe how long it's taken people to realize, especially since everyone knows how good fetch+dual manabases are from older formats. The key is that since Standard has no Wastelands, Stifles, Blood Moons, Fulminator Mages, etc. and is slower, it will almost certainly support the greediest manabases out of all the formats for the next 6 months.
So if Burn gets another good burn spell it'll be a real serious threat because of the sheer amount of life paid on the fetches... Starting life totals are down to around 15-17 In a 4-5 Color deck...
So if Burn gets another good burn spell it'll be a real serious threat because of the sheer amount of life paid on the fetches... Starting life totals are down to around 15-17 In a 4-5 Color deck...
While that is a problem, it is an improvement over the 3-color decks that had to be running painlands.
Also, I no one has really mentioned this yet, but the fetch-heavy manabases give you enough Delve fuel to consistently have enough cards in your graveyard to cast Dig Through Time on turn 4 or Tasigur, the Golden Fang on turn 3.
And in turn, the fact that fetches everywhere means delve everywhere should help the exile matters Eldrazi.
Edit: I wonder how many viable decks will contain neither cruise, DTT, or Tasigur. Almost none, I'd guess.
This *****s going to be weird.
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Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
And in turn, the fact that fetches everywhere means delve everywhere should help the exile matters Eldrazi.
Edit: I wonder how many viable decks will contain neither cruise, DTT, or Tasigur. Almost none, I'd guess.
I am guessing that Cruise won't be run that much. Dig can be consistently cast with this manabase and the fetchlands aren't enough to get Cruise to cost 1 mana, and Cruise is only better than Dig if it can be cast for 1. Helping the exile Eldrazi is neat though.
I am trying to figure out what numbers you are supposed to run with this in conjunction with the shock lands. These are definitely going to make building mana bases in modern a lot more difficult.
I had originally viewed the lag lands as supporting the existing pairing of fetches / shocks and wasn't impressed with the idea. I hadn't considered abandoning the shocks in favor of doubling down harder on fetches. I now fear these may eclipse shocks the same way fetch/shocks eclipsed almost every other dual land. I don't like the looks of this greedy rainbow future. It makes me wish we had something closer to wasteland's caliber in modern (and standard since it looks like this manabase will be brutal in standard).
I had originally viewed the lag lands as supporting the existing pairing of fetches / shocks and wasn't impressed with the idea. I hadn't considered abandoning the shocks in favor of doubling down harder on fetches. I now fear these may eclipse shocks the same way fetch/shocks eclipsed almost every other dual land. I don't like the looks of this greedy rainbow future. It makes me wish we had something closer to wasteland's caliber in modern (and standard since it looks like this manabase will be brutal in standard).
I'm not sold on them replacing shocks in Modern. In many modern decks, you need more flexibility than AB on turn two. For example Zoo will often want access to G on turn one and RR on turn two. Admittedly Zoo is an extreme example.
In most decks, FetchTangos works about as well as FetchShocks, and come with advantage of more delve fuel, and pseudo resistance to non-basic land hate. Tangos vs Shocks is actually a very interesting question. Once we get the full cycle, FetchTangos may become fairly common in modern.
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Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
This mana base would work well with converge if there are enough powerful effects. We already have seen Woodland Wanderer 4 mana 6/6 in this deck and Radiant Flames which is a much easier to cast Anger of the Gods though you give up exiling. Even a card like Exert Influence can see play if you consistently have 4-5 different colors of mana by turn 5.
Have any pro-players spoken out about the tangolands in modern yet? They should have figured this out by now, right?
Patrick Chapin is the Original source of the mana base and discussed them in a podcast. LSV wrote an article for the mothership saying the same thing.
The pros know. Only the netdeckers on mtgs seem to be under the impression that Battle lands suck.
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Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
simple nobody seem understand if you start a 15 vs burn it's matchloss. all seem scream "i prefer shockland: i DON'T CARE if i find my opponent with RDW i will lose, i NEED TO CAST turn 1 seize! AND LOSE 5 LIFE"
Agreed. I fully expect many decks to shift their mana base into reunning a few more basics and fetches and cutting the shocks for battles. Not every modern deck, but some. If your deck can get by on AB for turn 1 and 2, then fetches+basics+battles is probably better than shocks+fetches+basics
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Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
I'm glad this thread exists. I can't believe how long it's taken people to realize, especially since everyone knows how good fetch+dual manabases are from older formats. The key is that since Standard has no Wastelands, Stifles, Blood Moons, Fulminator Mages, etc. and is slower, it will almost certainly support the greediest manabases out of all the formats for the next 6 months.
But that article and podcast are talking about standard, not modern, right?
My bad. My claims in relation to modern are based on my own testing. Not all modern decks can get away with running the new battlelands. The Fetch/Basic/Battle mana base is significantly worse at fixing in the first two turns.
If someones want to know whether or not battles are better than shocks in your deck. Start by removing your shocks and replacing them with a split of basics and fetches. Play the first two turns of ten games (with the new fetch/basic only mana base) to see how important your shocks are to your first two turns. If you can get to turn 3 without issue and are casting the spells you need, then Battles are probably better in your deck. Go back through you mana base and remove 3-5 basics and replace them with the appropriate battlelands. You now have a modern mana base that is as good at casting your spells, is inherently good at dodging blood moon, and deals less damage to you over the course of the game, while increasing your Card quality in the late game. It also provides synergy with landfall and more support for delve.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
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This probably isn't optimal and only makes use of half the TangoLands, and yet it seems to be a very convincing five color mana base. your lands will enter the battlefield untapped almost always thanks to the raw power of fetches. Only 5 of your 25 lands are theoretically capable of entering the battlefield tapped. After turn two, assuming you drew at least two Fetches/Basics in the top 8 cards (P=0.82), all of your lands will always enter the battlefield untapped. This is insane.
Go...
- Manite
4 Bring to Light
1 End Hostilities
1 Planar Outburst
4 Radiant Flames
4 Abzan Charm
4 Clash of Wills
2 Crackling Doom
4 Dig Through Time
4 Fiery Impulse
1 Utter End
3 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Canopy Vista
1 Cinder Falls
3 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Polluted Delta
1 Prairie Stream
1 Smoldering Marsh
1 Sunken Hollow
1 Swamp
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Crumble to Dust
1 Planar Outburst
4 Seismic Rupture
1 Burn Away
2 Crackling Doom
3 Negate
3 Utter End
And here is my decklist for 5-Color Collected Company
http://www.mtgvault.com/soulofmirrodin/decks/1085350/
This is all just absurd. Any deck can play whatever cards it wants to at no cost.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Edit: Also, sorry that I missed your thread when it was in the proper place.
Interested in Custom Card Creation.
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A custom version of a third modern masters: MM2019
(filter->rarity to see in set rarity).
Agreed. At least this won't look as absurd as manabases apparently looked back in Lorwyn/Alara Standard when people were playing Cryptic Command, Cruel Ultimatum, Cloudthresher, and Hallowed Burial in the same deck.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
While that is a problem, it is an improvement over the 3-color decks that had to be running painlands.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Edit: I wonder how many viable decks will contain neither cruise, DTT, or Tasigur. Almost none, I'd guess.
Edit 2: Won't matter online, but it will be a huge pain IRL if decks go from 4/8 fetches to 12/16 fetches.
Interested in Custom Card Creation.
My Cube:Cardinal Custom Cube
A custom version of a third modern masters: MM2019
(filter->rarity to see in set rarity).
This *****s going to be weird.
- Manite
I am guessing that Cruise won't be run that much. Dig can be consistently cast with this manabase and the fetchlands aren't enough to get Cruise to cost 1 mana, and Cruise is only better than Dig if it can be cast for 1. Helping the exile Eldrazi is neat though.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I'm not sold on them replacing shocks in Modern. In many modern decks, you need more flexibility than AB on turn two. For example Zoo will often want access to G on turn one and RR on turn two. Admittedly Zoo is an extreme example.
In most decks, FetchTangos works about as well as FetchShocks, and come with advantage of more delve fuel, and pseudo resistance to non-basic land hate. Tangos vs Shocks is actually a very interesting question. Once we get the full cycle, FetchTangos may become fairly common in modern.
- Manite
Patrick Chapin is the Original source of the mana base and discussed them in a podcast. LSV wrote an article for the mothership saying the same thing.
The pros know. Only the netdeckers on mtgs seem to be under the impression that Battle lands suck.
- Manite
- Manite
They'll let us get away with that and have our fun until the next set. Then expect some hosers to ruin your day.
My bad. My claims in relation to modern are based on my own testing. Not all modern decks can get away with running the new battlelands. The Fetch/Basic/Battle mana base is significantly worse at fixing in the first two turns.
If someones want to know whether or not battles are better than shocks in your deck. Start by removing your shocks and replacing them with a split of basics and fetches. Play the first two turns of ten games (with the new fetch/basic only mana base) to see how important your shocks are to your first two turns. If you can get to turn 3 without issue and are casting the spells you need, then Battles are probably better in your deck. Go back through you mana base and remove 3-5 basics and replace them with the appropriate battlelands. You now have a modern mana base that is as good at casting your spells, is inherently good at dodging blood moon, and deals less damage to you over the course of the game, while increasing your Card quality in the late game. It also provides synergy with landfall and more support for delve.
- Manite