It's safe to say that if you don't first pick Murderous Cut, the person on your left will 2nd pick it (unless he or she grabbed some 3 color card with red in it too, in which case they're taking the Arc Lightning). Something to keep in mind.
If you take Knuckleblade first pick that doesn't restrict the rest of your draft. You still draft whats open and if you can't play with it whatever(I can't even count how many times my first 5 or 6 picks in a draft ended up being unplayable and I still crushed it). That said, I would take Murderous Cut first. There are a good number of walls and death touch that stop knuckle blade and I would see myself praying for a top deck cut over a top deck blade all the time.
M15 was fast so I took threats over removal(depending of course) but Khans is slow so I like the primo removal better. I would not take Arc lightning over knuckle blade cause there aren't tons of little guys to get value on.
The main reason I would take Cut is but passing knuckle blade the person to my left will get all glittery eyed on the pass and take it. He will most likely try to force it since I just implied I will be passing those colors and I now know exacty what the person on my left is dooin. Since I took a black card it will not be hard for me to stay out of his way and clean up in pack 2. This plan can backfire of course if he won't get off of his first pick rare or if the guy to my right cuts me hard and I have to move back into those colors. But this is always a risk.
Usually I would first pick the land and wait and see where my fixing is best in order to pick my colors but Cut is soooo good looking.
I'd probably grab Arc Lightning first. Knuckleblade is great, but it would be nice to not have your colors chosen for you in a wedge format right on the first card. Arc can take care of any annoying early game creatures your opponent puts down, and can give you board advantage.
i dont know why people are choosing knuckleblade. i mean ya its good, but for draft you have to get all 3 colors AND draw this card during the game. I think people are forgetting how difficult it would be to actually assemble a working 3 color DRAFT deck.
This is first pick
Going for the awesome bomb creature with first pick is rarely a bad idea, especially for an aggressively costed one with three abilities one of which protects itself
Although I might take Villainous Wealth honestly... It's hard to say without knowledge of how the set plays (I didn't watch the community cup) but I'm thinking the format will be slow enough that it could be viable and win you the game out of nowhere unlike the Knuckleblade
Still, taking either rare is an easy decision here I think. In fact Knuckleblade is probably the safer pick of the two but I like living on the edge
Given there are several cards in Temur colors with a good chance to get around the table and back to you, I'd say the Knuckleblade is a pretty safe pick.
(also not sure why people think their sealed generator "testing" would translate to an actual draft)
If this is directed at me, I'm not using a sealed generator for draft tests. Google up "copper dog MTG generator". I'm using that site's booster simulator and emulating a draft as best I can. Even so, you can't discredit sealed tests completely outright. Building sealed decks is much faster than setting up a virtual draft, and it still gives a general idea of what to expect from a particular draft format. The same synergies, combos, archetypes, and deck theories exist in sealed as they do in draft, the major difference being that building synergy and mono-colored decks is much easier in draft while getting mana fixers is less worrisome in sealed.
If you take Knuckleblade first pick that doesn't restrict the rest of your draft. You still draft whats open and if you can't play with it whatever(I can't even count how many times my first 5 or 6 picks in a draft ended up being unplayable and I still crushed it).
Yes, it is possible for a player to win a draft table while getting 3-5 early dead picks, but that doesn't minimize the fact that cards with heavy color investments are high risk of being dead picks. That's not to say that players should always avoid first picking high risk high reward cards like Savage Knuckleblade. The first pick is always the best time to take gambles, and a potentially explosive beater like Knuckleblade is well worth that gamble. However, in this particular scenario we are presented with a less explosive yet more widely applicable and consistent card in Murderous Cut, which in some situations can still be devastatingly backbreaking. Is the payoff that Knuckleblade presents that much greater than the risk of being a dead pick compared to Murder Cut? I say no.
That being said, I move Savage Knuckleblade in second place following Murderous Cut. I tend to err on the side of caution, and I think I was being too cautious when analyzing Knuckleblade.
People not taking the Knuckleblade here are overthinking it IMO. Cut and Arc Lightning are both nice, but the Knuckleblade is a game winning bomb. Those are few and far between, and worth the risk of a 3-color commitment, at least compared to basic one-for-one removal like the Cut. (also not sure why people think their sealed generator "testing" would translate to an actual draft)
It's also a very heavy and early commitment.
While I agree that Knuckleblade is insane in limited I still wouldn't commit myself to Temur that early. Especially because the rest of the pack is poor for Temur. Getting the Banner would be the best choice if it wheels - Arc Lightning wont wheel.
Re: not committing...what are you waiting to commit for? A bomb?
So lets pass a bomb so we don't commit...so that we can hope to see another one later? Ummm no. Chances are you aren't going to see another card as strong as Knuckles the rest of the draft. And with him being in 3 colors it isn't like you are likely (or even really possible) to get cut by the player to your right. You aren't going to get cut from all three colors.
First off, Sealed is not Draft. You don't have control over your cards in Sealed.
Second, this set is literally DESIGNED for you to play a wedge in Limited. In this pack alone, you'll probably wheel the on-color Banner. In Temur alone, there's 6 common, 2 uncommon and 2 rare mana fixers, not even counting the fact that you could use a Jeskai or Sultai Banner for 2 of your colors. If people are having trouble playing a wedge in draft sims, they're drafting wrong.
i dont know why people are choosing knuckleblade. i mean ya its good, but for draft you have to get all 3 colors AND draw this card during the game. I think people are forgetting how difficult it would be to actually assemble a working 3 color DRAFT deck.
So you think the entire set is worthless than since a good portion of the cards are triple color, they put a lot of fixing in this set to allow 3 color decks dude.
As said before Knuckleblade is an obvious bomb. Nothing even close to or worth looking at over it in this pack. Yes I see Cut and Lightning....still just grab the yeti and move on.
People keep saying that Knuckleblade is a bomb. I'm not convinced yet that it is. It has no evasion, anything with deathtouch stonewalls it, and I like my bombs to not require extra mana to be faster than a five turn clock. Moreover, it's doubtful that a deck can assemble the mana to cast it, let alone give it haste, before turn 5+ most games, in which case its size is no longer as threatening. I'd take Murderous Cut over it without much trepidation, and probably Arc Lightning as well. Next three are probably Knuckleblade, Citadel, and Scaldkin, in that order. Wealth is only worth it if you hit 2+ spells, and you probably need X to be at least 5 for that to be consistent. Typically I'd prefer my 8-mana spells not to rely on the quality of my opponent's deck.
Cut. Solid removal that gives me the flexibility to move into any of three clans later on and still use this card. Also Cut is not taking me towards the clan for which I've just passed a powerful card in Knuckleblade. Works for me.
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
Am I taking crazy pills here? Or am I really the only one seeing how utterly bonkers Villainous Wealth is?
Once you get to 7 mana (or even 6, though that might be a little short depending on your opponent's mana curve), it's highly likely to give you CA at no tempo cost. And it's not like games in Limited never go beyond that... In the late game, it's a huge topdeck.
Also, unlike the Knuckledblade (which I'll admit is crazy in Constructed), it is strictly a late-game card so you know you'll have the colors you need by then. I wouldn't fault anyone for taking the Knucleblade but it's probably not that insane when you can't cast it reliably before turn 4-5
No crazy pills. Wealth is an absolute bomb late game, but the problem is that you really need to get to 7-8 mana for it to be reliably effective. That said, I certainly wouldn't blame someone for taking it and building a more controlling deck with it in mind.
OTOH Knuckles is good no matter when you play him. Obviously he is silly turn 3/4. But a fat hasty guy that can protect himself from removal is still a really strong play late game (people were happy to 1st pick Bull Cerodon back in the day, and it wasn't cause he was vigilant).
So yeah, if you are looking at which card is bombier on turn 10, then it is the Wealth. But lots of games don't get that far, and it is the flexibility combined with high power level that makes Knuckles the stronger card.
First off, Sealed is not Draft. You don't have control over your cards in Sealed.
Both formats share the same card pool and deck limitations. The way the cards are distributed is different, and it is a major difference, but that still doesn't take away that both draft and sealed games use mostly the same metagames. Many of the experiences that a player learns from a sealed set still carry over to the same draft set.
Second, this set is literally DESIGNED for you to play a wedge in Limited. In this pack alone, you'll probably wheel the on-color Banner. In Temur alone, there's 6 common, 2 uncommon and 2 rare mana fixers, not even counting the fact that you could use a Jeskai or Sultai Banner for 2 of your colors. If people are having trouble playing a wedge in draft sims, they're drafting wrong.
From my experience, KTK is not multicolor in the traditional sense. Trying to draft the same way one would draft RTR or Alara (get some mana fixers, use high value gold cards) often ends in failure. Why? 1. There aren't enough 2-color cards. Notably, there are zero 2-color cards at common, and zero Ally-colored cards at any rarity, so many of the available pool is either 1 color or 3 colors. This lack of 2 colors gives less rewards for playing a full 3-color deck. 2. A large majority of 3-color cards are 5+ mana. With Morph putting a rope around the T2-T4 plays, this is especially taxing to many 3-color cards (The common wedge cards are exceptions thanks to morph).
With all the cheaper, more efficient cards being mono-colored, I feel this railroads players to build their decks more like any other non-multicolor set; 2 colored, picking the best of both worlds. Splashing into a third color is often beneficial and thanks to Morph and the mana fixers, it's easy to do (though it's not always necessary). However, that third color is usually a splash at best, meaning that picking 2-3 (non-morph) cards in the splash color is around the maximum. Drafting more than that is often detrimental to one's mana curve and land distribution, not to mention that it pushes players to use more draft spots for more rocks and tap lands.
First off, Sealed is not Draft. You don't have control over your cards in Sealed.
Both formats share the same card pool and deck limitations. The way the cards are distributed is different, and it is a major difference, but that still doesn't take away that both draft and sealed games use mostly the same metagames. Many of the experiences that a player learns from a sealed set still carry over to the same draft set.
Second, this set is literally DESIGNED for you to play a wedge in Limited. In this pack alone, you'll probably wheel the on-color Banner. In Temur alone, there's 6 common, 2 uncommon and 2 rare mana fixers, not even counting the fact that you could use a Jeskai or Sultai Banner for 2 of your colors. If people are having trouble playing a wedge in draft sims, they're drafting wrong.
From my experience, KTK is not multicolor in the traditional sense. Trying to draft the same way one would draft RTR or Alara (get some mana fixers, use high value gold cards) often ends in failure. Why? 1. There aren't enough 2-color cards. Notably, there are zero 2-color cards at common, and zero Ally-colored cards at any rarity, so many of the available pool is either 1 color or 3 colors. This lack of 2 colors gives less rewards for playing a full 3-color deck. 2. A large majority of 3-color cards are 5+ mana. With Morph putting a rope around the T2-T4 plays, this is especially taxing to many 3-color cards (The common wedge cards are exceptions thanks to morph).
With all the cheaper, more efficient cards being mono-colored, I feel this railroads players to build their decks more like any other non-multicolor set; 2 colored, picking the best of both worlds. Splashing into a third color is often beneficial and thanks to Morph and the mana fixers, it's easy to do (though it's not always necessary). However, that third color is usually a splash at best, meaning that picking 2-3 (non-morph) cards in the splash color is around the maximum. Drafting more than that is often detrimental to one's mana curve and land distribution, not to mention that it pushes players to use more draft spots for more rocks and tap lands.
So how many times have you drafted and played the set now? You mentioned a particularly strategy often ending in failure, which makes it sound as though you already have a lot of experience drafting and playing the set. Kind of hard to believe.
Twice, all biased since I'm basically drafting for 8 players each time and playing myself. So in a way 16 times. Note that they were only exercises to flesh out the KTK draft metagame, so they're far from a real-world experience, but I still think these games gave me good perspective on how I would want to draft.
Twice, all biased since I'm basically drafting for 8 players each time and playing myself. So in a way 16 times. Note that they were only exercises to flesh out the KTK draft metagame, so they're far from a real-world experience, but I still think these games gave me good perspective on how I would want to draft.
So 2 drafts, all drafted/played by one player?
Don't get me wrong, could be fun/interesting and good to give you some practice. But I think we can agree that it probably doesn't tell us much meaningful about the format or provide the kind of info needed to make a blanket statement like: "Trying to draft the same way one would draft RTR or Alara (get some mana fixers, use high value gold cards) often ends in failure."
Hence why I started my retort with "From my experiences". To clear something up, my intention was for that retort to be anecdote. I intended that MY drafts in particular ended miserably when trying to draft a certain way. So what I meant was "often end[ed] in failure [for me]", not "often ends in failure [for every being that plays KTK draft]". The rest tries to explain why I believe this was happening.
While it's true that the metagame doesn't change much from Sealed to Draft, there are always a lot of cards that are nearly unplayable in Sealed but extremely good in Draft, because you can make sure to build for it. (Squadron Hawk and Slivers come to mind) Having a solid wedge deck in Sealed is far less likely than in Draft, though ironically you're far more likely to have to go 3 colors in Sealed as well.
Am I taking crazy pills here? Or am I really the only one seeing how utterly bonkers Villainous Wealth is?
Once you get to 7 mana (or even 6, though that might be a little short depending on your opponent's mana curve), it's highly likely to give you CA at no tempo cost. And it's not like games in Limited never go beyond that... In the late game, it's a huge topdeck.
I'm fairly certain that Villainous Wealth is just unplayable. At 7 mana, you get all the 1-4 mana spells in your opponent's top 4 cards, which should get you one or two decent spells but is a pretty sad result for something that expensive.
The effect looks very strong for 9+ mana, since then you're seeing a lot more cards and getting basically any spell you see... but Plague Wind isn't even playable for 9 mana. This is a bad card.
Definitly Villainous Wealth - it's almost a "you win the game" card for a heavy control deck.
I think, that Savage Knuckleblade is just a bit overrated. Yes, he is very solid undercosted beater, but either you left him in danger being target №1 for opponent, or he slows you down by need to keep 3 mana open.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
GWU Bant Manifest - The Future Is Here. Or it will be at the end of turn. GWU
M15 was fast so I took threats over removal(depending of course) but Khans is slow so I like the primo removal better. I would not take Arc lightning over knuckle blade cause there aren't tons of little guys to get value on.
The main reason I would take Cut is but passing knuckle blade the person to my left will get all glittery eyed on the pass and take it. He will most likely try to force it since I just implied I will be passing those colors and I now know exacty what the person on my left is dooin. Since I took a black card it will not be hard for me to stay out of his way and clean up in pack 2. This plan can backfire of course if he won't get off of his first pick rare or if the guy to my right cuts me hard and I have to move back into those colors. But this is always a risk.
Usually I would first pick the land and wait and see where my fixing is best in order to pick my colors but Cut is soooo good looking.
UW Exile Control
This is first pick
Going for the awesome bomb creature with first pick is rarely a bad idea, especially for an aggressively costed one with three abilities one of which protects itself
Although I might take Villainous Wealth honestly... It's hard to say without knowledge of how the set plays (I didn't watch the community cup) but I'm thinking the format will be slow enough that it could be viable and win you the game out of nowhere unlike the Knuckleblade
Still, taking either rare is an easy decision here I think. In fact Knuckleblade is probably the safer pick of the two but I like living on the edge
In my experience, trying to force a color/colors based on your first pick can turn into a disaster.
----
Although, it if is a low stakes draft, and not a backdraft, i might just draft the rare
That being said, I move Savage Knuckleblade in second place following Murderous Cut. I tend to err on the side of caution, and I think I was being too cautious when analyzing Knuckleblade.
While I agree that Knuckleblade is insane in limited I still wouldn't commit myself to Temur that early. Especially because the rest of the pack is poor for Temur. Getting the Banner would be the best choice if it wheels - Arc Lightning wont wheel.
So lets pass a bomb so we don't commit...so that we can hope to see another one later? Ummm no. Chances are you aren't going to see another card as strong as Knuckles the rest of the draft. And with him being in 3 colors it isn't like you are likely (or even really possible) to get cut by the player to your right. You aren't going to get cut from all three colors.
Second, this set is literally DESIGNED for you to play a wedge in Limited. In this pack alone, you'll probably wheel the on-color Banner. In Temur alone, there's 6 common, 2 uncommon and 2 rare mana fixers, not even counting the fact that you could use a Jeskai or Sultai Banner for 2 of your colors. If people are having trouble playing a wedge in draft sims, they're drafting wrong.
So you think the entire set is worthless than since a good portion of the cards are triple color, they put a lot of fixing in this set to allow 3 color decks dude.
Feel free to bid on my cards here!
UBDragonlord Silumgar WGKarametra, God of Harvests
BRUNekusar, the Mindrazer BGMazirek, Kraul Death Priest
URMelek, Izzet Paragon UGPrime Speaker Zegana
WUHanna, Ship's Navigator BWUSydri, Galvanic Genius
WUBRGSliver Queen RBBladewing the Risen
WBKarlov of the Ghost Council RGXenagos, God of Revels
GFreyalise, Llanowar's Fury RWAurelia, the Warleader
RIb Halfheart, Goblin Tactician BDrana, Liberator of Malakir
UAzami, Lady of Scrolls WNahiri, the Lithomancer
WBGDoran, the Siege Tower CEmrakul, the Promised End
I also do hafta admit that Villainous Wealth for 5 cards (8cmc) seems pretty doable in Khans limited. I think 5 is the minimum one should aim for.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
You put my favorite card ever next to an obvious first pick!
Villainous Wealth for the win.
Actually, I don't care if I win-
I just want to steal your Sarkhan and your Knuckleblade
Reprint Stasis!
Control needs more love.
EDH:
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm
WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW
WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
No crazy pills. Wealth is an absolute bomb late game, but the problem is that you really need to get to 7-8 mana for it to be reliably effective. That said, I certainly wouldn't blame someone for taking it and building a more controlling deck with it in mind.
OTOH Knuckles is good no matter when you play him. Obviously he is silly turn 3/4. But a fat hasty guy that can protect himself from removal is still a really strong play late game (people were happy to 1st pick Bull Cerodon back in the day, and it wasn't cause he was vigilant).
So yeah, if you are looking at which card is bombier on turn 10, then it is the Wealth. But lots of games don't get that far, and it is the flexibility combined with high power level that makes Knuckles the stronger card.
From my experience, KTK is not multicolor in the traditional sense. Trying to draft the same way one would draft RTR or Alara (get some mana fixers, use high value gold cards) often ends in failure. Why? 1. There aren't enough 2-color cards. Notably, there are zero 2-color cards at common, and zero Ally-colored cards at any rarity, so many of the available pool is either 1 color or 3 colors. This lack of 2 colors gives less rewards for playing a full 3-color deck. 2. A large majority of 3-color cards are 5+ mana. With Morph putting a rope around the T2-T4 plays, this is especially taxing to many 3-color cards (The common wedge cards are exceptions thanks to morph).
With all the cheaper, more efficient cards being mono-colored, I feel this railroads players to build their decks more like any other non-multicolor set; 2 colored, picking the best of both worlds. Splashing into a third color is often beneficial and thanks to Morph and the mana fixers, it's easy to do (though it's not always necessary). However, that third color is usually a splash at best, meaning that picking 2-3 (non-morph) cards in the splash color is around the maximum. Drafting more than that is often detrimental to one's mana curve and land distribution, not to mention that it pushes players to use more draft spots for more rocks and tap lands.
So how many times have you drafted and played the set now? You mentioned a particularly strategy often ending in failure, which makes it sound as though you already have a lot of experience drafting and playing the set. Kind of hard to believe.
So 2 drafts, all drafted/played by one player?
Don't get me wrong, could be fun/interesting and good to give you some practice. But I think we can agree that it probably doesn't tell us much meaningful about the format or provide the kind of info needed to make a blanket statement like: "Trying to draft the same way one would draft RTR or Alara (get some mana fixers, use high value gold cards) often ends in failure."
The effect looks very strong for 9+ mana, since then you're seeing a lot more cards and getting basically any spell you see... but Plague Wind isn't even playable for 9 mana. This is a bad card.
I think, that Savage Knuckleblade is just a bit overrated. Yes, he is very solid undercosted beater, but either you left him in danger being target №1 for opponent, or he slows you down by need to keep 3 mana open.