Delve was never going to be a mechanic that you build a deck around, it was always going to be slotting the best few delve cards into a midrange/control build that was going to fill up the graveyard naturally by playing their cards (sped up a little by Ascendancy and Charm, which are both good on their own) or into a Nighthowler build to remove any noncreatures that get dumped. Delve has diminishing returns with itself (the more you have the worse each one is), so no deck ever wants more than a few delve cards. No card with delve will ever see play in ANY constructed format except the best 2-3 cards for a deck type. Right now the cards that look like they will see play are Murderous Cut, Empty the Pits, and either Treasure Cruise or Dig through time (most likely only one of the blue draw spells, whichever turns out to be better-my vote is dig through time). That isn't a lot, but consider that every deck (except aggro) using either of those colors will be playing at least 2-3 copies of one of those cards. That is probably more Constructed play than any of the other clan mechanics will get.
I think that we should wait untill the entire set is spoiled before passing judgement upon Delve and Sultai. Reasons being is we have only seen ~60% of the set there could be the two three Sultai cards that as a 'draw back' force you to mill yourself and be 'under costed' as a result. These would be great enablers to allow play outside of formats that fill up the GY and still only run at best 4-5 dredge cards. though with out these types of enablers I would agree that only a few dredge cards will see play.
Hmm what chances does Dakra Mystic have of seeing play in a sultai-themed deck?
1-drop with poor body.
Instant-speed ability to reveal top of both players' library and option to either dump them into the yard or fling into their hands.
With Delve it essentially becomes a mana-dork with potential for VCA - if you draw a useful tool and your opponent draws a land (would be swell with their Courser on the field) or something else they might not be able to use.
Delve's anti-synergy with itself is one of the things I really like about it as a mechanic.
Like the Legendary mechanic, it's a mechanic that rewards being very selective with how many copies of a card you play, and gets you even further away from the 'I either want 0 or 4 of this card' extreme.
You don't build a 'delve deck', you build a deck and select a very small number of delve cards to add to it.
The problem with this is it's a clan's mechanic. If I want to build a deck around my clan, I want to be as much on theme as possible. Delve actually doesn't let me do it. Building a Sultai deck actually forces you to use less Sultai cards than you would. That's totally backwards.
Delve as a mechanic is fine, but delve as a guild/clan/tribe/whatever mechanic, as in a mechanic defining a faction in magic is a failure.
And to add insult to injury, Delve does not really show off the "ruthlessness" of the Sultai as well as the other mechanics. "Oh man, look that guy is so ruthless, he's gonna use HIS OWN GRAVEYARD as a resource. So evil!"
Plus, we were told they like to manipulate resources... If by manipulating resources they mean simply removing it, then I guess it'd work, but honestly it sounds more like destroying resources than manipulating them.
Or maybe I'm just bitter, because GBU is my favourite triplet and WotC somehow managed to get literally everything wrong with the Sultai, even down to the creature types. I mean Naga and not Snakes? Bah.
I think you fail to see what a Delve deck looks like.
A deck that goes heavily in on Delve will run 3-8 cards that actually have Delve, and 10 or more cards that support Delve by efficiently filling up your graveyard while progressing your gameplan.
Isn't that exactly what I said? Delve doesn't work well with itself, which means you don't want to put too many on-theme cards in a theme deck centered around the Sultai. That is a failure in my eyes.
Again, Delve itself is fine, but it doesn't work as an identity mechanic for a tribe/clan/guild/whatever.
So now we've seen the low end of the Sultai's curve. And by that, I mean the lack of it. They don't have a playable 1-2 drop that helps the strategy at all, the closest being the Bloodsoaked Champion. Their creature curve starts around 4CMC and doesn't have any creature (even with delve) stronger than 4/5. The new enablers are limited fodder only; Tiagem's Scheming is a 2CMC Index, and Scout the Borders is a 3CMC Grisly Salvage. I'll again reiterate my concerns. The Sultai were deliberately and preemptively nerfed to keep them from being a competitive wedge, basically because Delve was seen as a much stronger mechanic than Raid or Outlast. I'd don't have any explanations for why the Jeskai are so bad though.
Delve's anti-synergy with itself is one of the things I really like about it as a mechanic.
Like the Legendary mechanic, it's a mechanic that rewards being very selective with how many copies of a card you play, and gets you even further away from the 'I either want 0 or 4 of this card' extreme.
You don't build a 'delve deck', you build a deck and select a very small number of delve cards to add to it.
The problem with this is it's a clan's mechanic. If I want to build a deck around my clan, I want to be as much on theme as possible. Delve actually doesn't let me do it. Building a Sultai deck actually forces you to use less Sultai cards than you would. That's totally backwards.
Delve as a mechanic is fine, but delve as a guild/clan/tribe/whatever mechanic, as in a mechanic defining a faction in magic is a failure.
And to add insult to injury, Delve does not really show off the "ruthlessness" of the Sultai as well as the other mechanics. "Oh man, look that guy is so ruthless, he's gonna use HIS OWN GRAVEYARD as a resource. So evil!"
Plus, we were told they like to manipulate resources... If by manipulating resources they mean simply removing it, then I guess it'd work, but honestly it sounds more like destroying resources than manipulating them.
Or maybe I'm just bitter, because GBU is my favourite triplet and WotC somehow managed to get literally everything wrong with the Sultai, even down to the creature types. I mean Naga and not Snakes? Bah.
I think you fail to see what a Delve deck looks like.
A deck that goes heavily in on Delve will run 3-8 cards that actually have Delve, and 10 or more cards that support Delve by efficiently filling up your graveyard while progressing your gameplan.
Isn't that exactly what I said? Delve doesn't work well with itself, which means you don't want to put too many on-theme cards in a theme deck centered around the Sultai. That is a failure in my eyes.
Again, Delve itself is fine, but it doesn't work as an identity mechanic for a tribe/clan/guild/whatever.
I agree with you, sir.
Ironically, Delve will help other khans more than Sultai itself, since it's a "universal mechanic". It takes the place of morph, which is supposed to be the universal ability, present in all khans.
Just try to adapt raid, outcast or ferocious to the Sultai strategy (ferocious would work, though). The point is: other khans don't need to change their strategy to receive the benefits of Delve, while Sultai has, so far, only Delve to develop their strategy (I'm judging from the limited standpoint).
Sultai? Here's the garbage that they get for the rare, "pushed" creature: Kheru Lich Lord
What a huge joke.
I can empathize with not getting the sort of cards you were looking for in a given clan (Temur did not turn out how I would have liked), but I'm pretty sure Sultai got some of the best utility, regardless of how they hold in the creature department. People are a lot more excited for Dig through Time than they are for any other rare, their charm is considered one of the best, and even Murderous Cut has the potential to see standard play as 1-mana hard removal. I don't think Sultai's much of a joke.
Sultai? Here's the garbage that they get for the rare, "pushed" creature: Kheru Lich Lord
What a huge joke.
I can empathize with not getting the sort of cards you were looking for in a given clan (Temur did not turn out how I would have liked), but I'm pretty sure Sultai got some of the best utility, regardless of how they hold in the creature department. People are a lot more excited for Dig through Time than they are for any other rare, their charm is considered one of the best, and even Murderous Cut has the potential to see standard play as 1-mana hard removal. I don't think Sultai's much of a joke.
The joke is that other decks are playing T3 threats that outclass literally every Sultai creature. They are so far behind in terms of bodies that even a single midrange creature on the board wrecks them. To combat this, they get good spot removal. And yet the Mardu get 3 board wipes and can use that same spot removal with stronger creatures. The Azban get two boardwipes, and arguably better spot removal and better creatures. If you aren't playing a dedicated BUG dredge list, not even a single Sultai creature is playable.
The joke is that other decks are playing T3 threats that outclass literally every Sultai creature. They are so far behind in terms of bodies that even a single midrange creature on the board wrecks them. To combat this, they get good spot removal. And yet the Mardu get 3 board wipes and can use that same spot removal with stronger creatures. The Azban get two boardwipes, and arguably better spot removal and better creatures. If you aren't playing a dedicated BUG dredge list, not even a single Sultai creature is playable.
That's not entirely true. Rakshasa Deathdealer has a sultai watermark and could be the most powerful two drop in ktk. Beyond that though.... (I guess sidisi is pretty good too, but only in your aforementioned bug dredge list.)
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Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
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1-drop with poor body.
Instant-speed ability to reveal top of both players' library and option to either dump them into the yard or fling into their hands.
With Delve it essentially becomes a mana-dork with potential for VCA - if you draw a useful tool and your opponent draws a land (would be swell with their Courser on the field) or something else they might not be able to use.
Isn't that exactly what I said? Delve doesn't work well with itself, which means you don't want to put too many on-theme cards in a theme deck centered around the Sultai. That is a failure in my eyes.
Again, Delve itself is fine, but it doesn't work as an identity mechanic for a tribe/clan/guild/whatever.
Jeskai gets Mantis Rider.
Temur gets Savage Knuckleblade
Abza gets Siege Rhino
Mardu gets Butcher of the Horde
Sultai? Here's the garbage that they get for the rare, "pushed" creature:
Kheru Lich Lord
What a huge joke.
I agree with you, sir.
Ironically, Delve will help other khans more than Sultai itself, since it's a "universal mechanic". It takes the place of morph, which is supposed to be the universal ability, present in all khans.
Just try to adapt raid, outcast or ferocious to the Sultai strategy (ferocious would work, though). The point is: other khans don't need to change their strategy to receive the benefits of Delve, while Sultai has, so far, only Delve to develop their strategy (I'm judging from the limited standpoint).
I can empathize with not getting the sort of cards you were looking for in a given clan (Temur did not turn out how I would have liked), but I'm pretty sure Sultai got some of the best utility, regardless of how they hold in the creature department. People are a lot more excited for Dig through Time than they are for any other rare, their charm is considered one of the best, and even Murderous Cut has the potential to see standard play as 1-mana hard removal. I don't think Sultai's much of a joke.
Karador EDH
Comments on decks welcome: http://tappedout.net/users/AradonTemplar/
Currently developing Set 1 of 3, 'Shadow': http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=436885
The joke is that other decks are playing T3 threats that outclass literally every Sultai creature. They are so far behind in terms of bodies that even a single midrange creature on the board wrecks them. To combat this, they get good spot removal. And yet the Mardu get 3 board wipes and can use that same spot removal with stronger creatures. The Azban get two boardwipes, and arguably better spot removal and better creatures. If you aren't playing a dedicated BUG dredge list, not even a single Sultai creature is playable.
- Manite