It isn't that I don't like Delve. I do. It is interesting, powerful, and certainly much more interesting than a conditional ETB trigger, a sorcery-speed +1/+1 counter, a power check, or a weak version of Kiln Fiend's ability. But in this standard, Delve must have been way to powerful. To compensate, the Delve cards have mostly been too expensive to play and the Sultai's version of most of the cycles are horrible.
Ascendancy cycle - Sultai version is only one with a single ability. It doesn't affect the battlefield at all, especially not the turn it enters, and it is only viable in one narrow archetype.
Khan cycle - Sidisi is the second best Khan, but completely invalidated by Anafenza.
Rare creature cycle - Every other wedge got a useful fattie. Jeskai got a cheaper, smaller Lightning Angel. Temur got a 4/4 for 3 with pump and the ability to dodge removal. Azban got a 5/4 with trample and ETB drain. Mardu got a flying 5/4 for 4 with a super useful sac ability. Sultai get an unplayable 4/4 for 6 with a completely terrible ability.
Charm cycle - Actually good, even if it doesn't work with their Khan
In short, they've been shoe-horned into a narrow build whereas other wedges can work in a variety of ways (aggro, midrange, walkers, control) because they have the cards to do so. Use these new Sultai cards, and the only option is graveyard durdle. Their cards are overcosted, underpowered, with abilities that only relevant in a specific archetype. Whereas the wedges with crap mechanics get great creatures and spells that can be used everywhere.
At this point, it seems like the Sultai would have been better getting "Not-Delve - Remove this card from the graveyard at sorcery speed, put a -1/-1 counter on target creature." The mechanic is so much worse but R&D clearly designed around Sultai being the boogeyman, and it shows.
I agree with Wildfire393 that we still have to wait a bit to come to any conclusions. I doubt we'll see anything quite as powerful in a similar vein as Tombstalker since Necropolis Fiend basically dismissed that, but delve itself is always a pretty powerful mechanic. The recently spoiled Kheru Lich Lord also shows there's more coming out for Sultai's graveyard abilities even if it is a little overcosted.
Half the set to go and barely any Delve cards actually seen yet -sigh-
Ascendancy - Yes it would have been nicer if it had an immediate effect (some sort of ETB) but this card is deceptively powerful, the ability to dig for what you need shouldn't be underestimated (think of this as scry 2 but infinitely better if your deck uses the graveyard in some small way). This is obviously not a card for an aggro deck and obviously best in a graveyard deck but it's also a decent option for a midrange or control deck (particular when playing against control decks).
Khan - "OMG Anafenza has an ability that can neuter Sidisi, Sidisi must be completely invalidated now!" -extreme sarcasm- A single card played in a single 3 colour combination doesn't invalidate anything, especially not when it's a creature and Sidisi is in a colour combination including black and blue (discard, counter and removal all solve the problem).
Rare Creature Cycle - Are we even sure this is a cycle? If it is then yes Sultai got the short end of the constructed playability stick, but i'd argue that it's not since there's no actual link between the creatures involved and there are multiple different tri-colour rare creatures in several clans already, Sultai may yet get a good cheap one.
Charm Cycle - Probably the best of the charms so far, a very powerful card, there's no reason it needs to work with the Karn it's just good in it's own right.
You are probably right about wizards being overly cautious about Delve (they usually are about free/cost reduction mechanics) but i'd argue that the other wedges aren't really all that versatile, the other clans are all forcing various forms of aggro (midrange aggro in the case of Temur), yes they can be used in other types of decks but the core clan cards aren't aimed at that. We also need to remember that Sultai midrange-control was a potent colour combination in Theros block and Tarkir only adds to that with better mana and extra utility like the Charm.
Maybe wait until we see more than 4 cards with Delve? I bet there will be some real scary stuff in there.
If you read my post, my problem wasn't just with the Delve cards. It was that the Sultai, as a wedge, are weak. They have weak creatures compared to every other wedge, and they just look overcosted. Other wedges are getting 2, 3 and 4 drops that are reasonably powerful while the Sultai are getting unplayable 5 and 6 drops. Their signature enchantment works with their strategy, but by itself it is by far the least impactful of the bunch.
I made this post because we've seen a decent number of cycles, and so we can somewhat compare the wedges now. I didn't make it because Delve itself is bad, but because the wedge seems to have been preemptively weakened to compensate. It is as if they make Sultai cards by taking a default creature, adding 1-2 to the CMC and giving them a janky ability that "works" with graveyards.
I think you're massively underrating Sultai Ascendancy. It effectively lets you Scry 2 each upkeep, except you get to feed your graveyard with the chaff instead of just shipping it to the bottom. Even in a deck with zero graveyard interaction, that's incredibly strong. You will basically never get land-flooded and can ensure you draw gas for the rest of the game.
I also don't think Sidisi is "completely invalidated" by Anafenza. Sure, Ana shuts off his token production, which hurts a lot, but how often do you expect to be seeing Anafenza in standard? Even if every WBG deck runs her, that's only going to be a portion of the metagame. And it's not like you can't just Murderous Cut her and turn your Khan back on.
There's also no guarantee that each color is only getting two rare creatures - we may yet see a BUG or 1BUG cost creature with a strong ability.
Add that to the fact that the Sultai Charm is possibly the best charm ever printed and you've got a pretty strong basis.
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I think you're massively underrating Sultai Ascendancy. It effectively lets you Scry 2 each upkeep, except you get to feed your graveyard with the chaff instead of just shipping it to the bottom. Even in a deck with zero graveyard interaction, that's incredibly strong. You will basically never get land-flooded and can ensure you draw gas for the rest of the game.
I also don't think Sidisi is "completely invalidated" by Anafenza. Sure, Ana shuts off his token production, which hurts a lot, but how often do you expect to be seeing Anafenza in standard? Even if every WBG deck runs her, that's only going to be a portion of the metagame. And it's not like you can't just Murderous Cut her and turn your Khan back on.
There's also no guarantee that each color is only getting two rare creatures - we may yet see a BUG or 1BUG cost creature with a strong ability.
Add that to the fact that the Sultai Charm is possibly the best charm ever printed and you've got a pretty strong basis.
I don't hate the ascendancy, but is the only enchantment of the cycle that does one thing and one thing only. It is also the only one that has zero chance to impact the battlefield or make any difference at all the turn it comes down. It only affects the board state with Sidisi on the battlefield. I did say the charm was good, even if it's Ultimate Price option will miss a lot of creatures and the ability won't trigger Sidisi.
Sorry, I have to agree with the OP. While we should wait to see what other cards get spoiled, the Sultai cards so far have ranged from lackluster to disappointing, with the only exception being the charm (which really is my favorite charm ever printed). During the lead up to spoiler season when "Delve" was on everyone's tongues, I kept thinking to myself, "This is going to be bad. Everything will be over-costed because they're slowing down Standard. I hope Delve isn't what they hinted at by resource manipulation." Lo and behold, that is the case. Now, if they spoil lots and lots of cards that really help Delve, I'll rethink my current stance. But it's going to need a lot of help to be a player in any format.
Sad too. This is my favorite wedge color combination, and I don't feel like the Sultai are bringing anything new and fun to the table. Crossing my fingers that the unspoiled cards are more exciting.
So...sultai gets the best mechanic....which prompted you to complain that in addition to having the best charm, they also don't have the best everything else.
The Ascendancy does two things: It filters your draws and it feeds Delve. It might not be as obvious as the other spoiled ascendencies so far, but it's still true.
As far as the charm not feeding Sidisi, that's fine, but it does feed Dredge by putting an extra card in your graveyard. The other charms don't have obvious synergies with their Khans either.
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But we got a 4B unconditional kill spell with delve and an instant-speed finisher that spits out a ton of tokens! And in the same Standard as Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth! I'd say this is a sign of more good things to come.
The set was built to be balanced. Each wedge has it's share of good and mediocre cards.
Seriously, look through each wedge and tell me how many playables each wedge has. The numbers are similar, and the number of bad cards completely outweighs the good.
So...sultai gets the best mechanic....which prompted you to complain that in addition to having the best charm, they also don't have the best everything else.
Do people even read the things they post?
My exact point was that I'd rather have a consistent set of playable cards than a bunch of overcosted things because Delve was considered too strong (even though only two Delve cards so far are playable).
So...sultai gets the best mechanic....which prompted you to complain that in addition to having the best charm, they also don't have the best everything else.
Do people even read the things they post?
My exact point was that I'd rather have a consistent set of playable cards than a bunch of overcosted things because Delve was considered too strong (even though only two Delve cards so far are playable).
Playable in what format? Hmm, let me guess... Standard right? Have you played with the whole new set in the new rotated Standard metagame yet? No? Well I guess you are right, all of these cards are unplayable!
You have card filtering and advantage - Courser of kruphix, sultai ascendancy (yes I do think it is usefull in a control deck as well, since it has effectively two modes, card filtering and fueling the yard), blue and black card draw
Very potent finishers - the theros block sphinx or maybe even empty the pits, since you can wait for it untill your yard is filled enough and you can also use some more mana than just the 4 B to cast it, it will finish the game really quickly if cast in the late game (and you can protect it with counter spells)
Ummm...yeah about that. Delve is easily the strongest of the wedge mechanics, heck a number of the others will be lucky to see ANY real constructed play.
They might not give you the tools to make a dominant Sultai deck in this set, but that is probably because the deck already has so much support coming from Theros block.
So...sultai gets the best mechanic....which prompted you to complain that in addition to having the best charm, they also don't have the best everything else.
Do people even read the things they post?
My exact point was that I'd rather have a consistent set of playable cards than a bunch of overcosted things because Delve was considered too strong (even though only two Delve cards so far are playable).
Playable in what format? Hmm, let me guess... Standard right? Have you played with the whole new set in the new rotated Standard metagame yet? No? Well I guess you are right, all of these cards are unplayable!
What do those cards have in common? They all have a Sultai watermark , they are all hideously overcosted, they all have janky abilities, and they are all rare or mythic. Of the Sultai cards the strongest are the uncommon charm and kill spell and the only other playables are limited to control archetypes (Sidisi, the Ascendancy, Empty the Pits). The other wedges may have jank, but they don't have this many shades of it. The defining attribute of the Sultai is costing 1-3 too much and having a random ability.
The only hope I have for the wedge now is that the trend of having better uncommons and commons continues, because right now I'd take Murderous Cuts and Sultai Charm over every card they've been given.
So...sultai gets the best mechanic....which prompted you to complain that in addition to having the best charm, they also don't have the best everything else.
Do people even read the things they post?
My exact point was that I'd rather have a consistent set of playable cards than a bunch of overcosted things because Delve was considered too strong (even though only two Delve cards so far are playable).
Playable in what format? Hmm, let me guess... Standard right? Have you played with the whole new set in the new rotated Standard metagame yet? No? Well I guess you are right, all of these cards are unplayable!
What do those cards have in common? They all have a Sultai watermark , they are all hideously overcosted, they all have janky abilities, and they are all rare or mythic. Of the Sultai cards the strongest are the uncommon charm and kill spell and the only other playables are limited to control archetypes (Sidisi, the Ascendancy, Empty the Pits). The other wedges may have jank, but they don't have this many shades of it. The defining attribute of the Sultai is costing 1-3 too much and having a random ability.
The only hope I have for the wedge now is that the trend of having better uncommons and commons continues, because right now I'd take Murderous Cuts and Sultai Charm over every card they've been given.
I get your point, but my point still stands in that we can't say what is definitively "playable" and "unplayable" yet in this upcoming Standard metagame. Let's patiently wait for the full set reveal before making any conclusions, especially on the Delve cards since they require support. As others have already stated, each clan has some strong and weak new cards and Sultai is no exception.
Lastly, if somehow every clan's archetype is fairly balanced and top tier in the upcoming Standard metagame I would be very surprised. There will almost definitely be one or two archetypes that emerge as the upper tier, but hopefully they all do. There are way too many uncertainties at this point.
I get your point, but my point still stands in that we can't say what is definitively "playable" and "unplayable" yet in this upcoming Standard metagame. Let's patiently wait for the full set reveal before making any conclusions, especially on the Delve cards since they require support. As others have already stated, each clan has some strong and weak new cards and Sultai is no exception.
Lastly, if somehow every clan's archetype is fairly balanced and top tier in the upcoming Standard metagame I would be very surprised. There will almost definitely be one or two archetypes that emerge as the upper tier, but hopefully they all do. There are way too many uncertainties at this point.
We can't tell for certain what will be playable, but we can clearly tell what is not. Kheru Lich Lord is not. In all practical terms he is worse than an artifact that costs 2 less mana. 6CMC in standard gets you a Garruk, an Aetherling, or an Elspeth and he is simply not on anything close to that plane of power.
That is one example, but the same applies elsewhere. We can can't truly say whether something outclasses other options in the same role, but we can see when that something is not efficient. That is off a little for the Delve cards, which have variable efficiency, but we can still look at cards like Rakshava Vizier and know that they are overcosted.
I hope we get more "if a card is exiled from your GY, something happens" like the Vizier. Let's be honest. You don't want to overload on the Delve mechanics in your deck. Yes Murder Cut is pretty awesome but honestly... when can u actually spend it for 1 mana when you need it? This is not even counting random GY hate your opponent will have. The thing with Delve is that it contradict almost all GY strategies. Most GY strategies involve, dumping fatties to reanimate or dumping your library to get card advantage aka Dredge. The way it is now is that we got neither as Sultai. We have Durdle Turtle that has NO synergy with it's wedge. An aggressive 2/2 Cat Demon that pumps? The wedge is ALL OVER THE PLACE. Granted we still have a crapload of commons/uncommons to go through so we might be jumping the gun [which happens every spoiler season], but I think the outrage has been a bit... "louder" was because since Dragonmaze there is a lot of questionable decisions going on with making cards. Bumping rarites, throwing more mana or taking away mana or worse yet swapping designs from one card to another (I am looking at you Voice of Resurgence).
I am probably one of the few people who don't like dredge as a mechanic, period. Dredge is inherently problematic because it is anti-synergistic to itself. Each dredge card you run, makes those cards worse on average. I honestly can't think of any other mechanics which have as much anti-synergy as delve has.
EDIT: I shouldn't do multiple things at the same time, every time I say dredge, I actually mean Delve. Oops...
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
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I am probably one of the few people who don't like dredge as a mechanic, period. Dredge is inherently problematic because it is anti-synergistic to itself. Each dredge card you run, makes those cards worse on average. I honestly can't think of any other mechanics which have as much anti-synergy as delve has.
I'm guessing you meant Delve each time there since Dredge is very synergistic with itself (too synergistic perhaps).
It's true, Delve isn't a linear synergistic mechanic and for me that's a good thing. I like that it requires thought and balancing to work out how many/what Delve cards to run and what (if any) graveyard enablers are needed. I like that I won't just be throwing a lot of Delve cards into a deck and calling it a day. But then I like deck building, I don't want wizards to build my decks for me, some people want their decks handed to them by wizards and Delve is definitely not for those people.
Back to the main argument -
On the whole overcosted thing i'd like to bring up Rakshasa Deathdealer - it like many of the other cards mentioned earlier has the sultai watermark, but it's in no way overcosted, it's a very efficient 2cc 2/2 regenerating shade that has a good chance to see play in standard (if nothing else the fact it can beat through Courser after 1 pump is a huge mark in it's favour).
I'm guessing you meant Delve each time there since Dredge is very synergistic with itself (too synergistic perhaps).
I did mean delve. My bad...
It's true, Delve isn't a linear synergistic mechanic and for me that's a good thing. I like that it requires thought and balancing to work out how many/what Delve cards to run and what (if any) graveyard enablers are needed. I like that I won't just be throwing a lot of Delve cards into a deck and calling it a day. But then I like deck building, I don't want wizards to build my decks for me, some people want their decks handed to them by wizards and Delve is definitely not for those people.
I very much agree with your sentiments, but you act as if a mechanic must either be linearly synergistic on anti-synergistic. This is a false dichotomy because there is at least one more option. Simply non-synergistic. For example. Monstrous is a mechanic which is non-synergistic. Running a single monstrous card, doesn't make your other monstrous cards any weaker or stronger. Most mechanics are non-synergistic. Delve is the only mechanic I know of that is actually anti-synergistic. In constructed, the anti-synergy doesn't matter much because you have complete control over the number of delve cards you run. But in limited....
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Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
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Ascendancy cycle - Sultai version is only one with a single ability. It doesn't affect the battlefield at all, especially not the turn it enters, and it is only viable in one narrow archetype.
Khan cycle - Sidisi is the second best Khan, but completely invalidated by Anafenza.
Rare creature cycle - Every other wedge got a useful fattie. Jeskai got a cheaper, smaller Lightning Angel. Temur got a 4/4 for 3 with pump and the ability to dodge removal. Azban got a 5/4 with trample and ETB drain. Mardu got a flying 5/4 for 4 with a super useful sac ability. Sultai get an unplayable 4/4 for 6 with a completely terrible ability.
Charm cycle - Actually good, even if it doesn't work with their Khan
In short, they've been shoe-horned into a narrow build whereas other wedges can work in a variety of ways (aggro, midrange, walkers, control) because they have the cards to do so. Use these new Sultai cards, and the only option is graveyard durdle. Their cards are overcosted, underpowered, with abilities that only relevant in a specific archetype. Whereas the wedges with crap mechanics get great creatures and spells that can be used everywhere.
At this point, it seems like the Sultai would have been better getting "Not-Delve - Remove this card from the graveyard at sorcery speed, put a -1/-1 counter on target creature." The mechanic is so much worse but R&D clearly designed around Sultai being the boogeyman, and it shows.
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Ascendancy - Yes it would have been nicer if it had an immediate effect (some sort of ETB) but this card is deceptively powerful, the ability to dig for what you need shouldn't be underestimated (think of this as scry 2 but infinitely better if your deck uses the graveyard in some small way). This is obviously not a card for an aggro deck and obviously best in a graveyard deck but it's also a decent option for a midrange or control deck (particular when playing against control decks).
Khan - "OMG Anafenza has an ability that can neuter Sidisi, Sidisi must be completely invalidated now!" -extreme sarcasm- A single card played in a single 3 colour combination doesn't invalidate anything, especially not when it's a creature and Sidisi is in a colour combination including black and blue (discard, counter and removal all solve the problem).
Rare Creature Cycle - Are we even sure this is a cycle? If it is then yes Sultai got the short end of the constructed playability stick, but i'd argue that it's not since there's no actual link between the creatures involved and there are multiple different tri-colour rare creatures in several clans already, Sultai may yet get a good cheap one.
Charm Cycle - Probably the best of the charms so far, a very powerful card, there's no reason it needs to work with the Karn it's just good in it's own right.
You are probably right about wizards being overly cautious about Delve (they usually are about free/cost reduction mechanics) but i'd argue that the other wedges aren't really all that versatile, the other clans are all forcing various forms of aggro (midrange aggro in the case of Temur), yes they can be used in other types of decks but the core clan cards aren't aimed at that. We also need to remember that Sultai midrange-control was a potent colour combination in Theros block and Tarkir only adds to that with better mana and extra utility like the Charm.
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If you read my post, my problem wasn't just with the Delve cards. It was that the Sultai, as a wedge, are weak. They have weak creatures compared to every other wedge, and they just look overcosted. Other wedges are getting 2, 3 and 4 drops that are reasonably powerful while the Sultai are getting unplayable 5 and 6 drops. Their signature enchantment works with their strategy, but by itself it is by far the least impactful of the bunch.
I made this post because we've seen a decent number of cycles, and so we can somewhat compare the wedges now. I didn't make it because Delve itself is bad, but because the wedge seems to have been preemptively weakened to compensate. It is as if they make Sultai cards by taking a default creature, adding 1-2 to the CMC and giving them a janky ability that "works" with graveyards.
I also don't think Sidisi is "completely invalidated" by Anafenza. Sure, Ana shuts off his token production, which hurts a lot, but how often do you expect to be seeing Anafenza in standard? Even if every WBG deck runs her, that's only going to be a portion of the metagame. And it's not like you can't just Murderous Cut her and turn your Khan back on.
There's also no guarantee that each color is only getting two rare creatures - we may yet see a BUG or 1BUG cost creature with a strong ability.
Add that to the fact that the Sultai Charm is possibly the best charm ever printed and you've got a pretty strong basis.
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I don't hate the ascendancy, but is the only enchantment of the cycle that does one thing and one thing only. It is also the only one that has zero chance to impact the battlefield or make any difference at all the turn it comes down. It only affects the board state with Sidisi on the battlefield. I did say the charm was good, even if it's Ultimate Price option will miss a lot of creatures and the ability won't trigger Sidisi.
Sad too. This is my favorite wedge color combination, and I don't feel like the Sultai are bringing anything new and fun to the table. Crossing my fingers that the unspoiled cards are more exciting.
Do people even read the things they post?
As far as the charm not feeding Sidisi, that's fine, but it does feed Dredge by putting an extra card in your graveyard. The other charms don't have obvious synergies with their Khans either.
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But we got a 4B unconditional kill spell with delve and an instant-speed finisher that spits out a ton of tokens! And in the same Standard as Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth! I'd say this is a sign of more good things to come.
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Seriously, look through each wedge and tell me how many playables each wedge has. The numbers are similar, and the number of bad cards completely outweighs the good.
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My exact point was that I'd rather have a consistent set of playable cards than a bunch of overcosted things because Delve was considered too strong (even though only two Delve cards so far are playable).
Playable in what format? Hmm, let me guess... Standard right? Have you played with the whole new set in the new rotated Standard metagame yet? No? Well I guess you are right, all of these cards are unplayable!
You have powerfull disruption in those colors - hero's downfall,drown in sorrow,bile blight,thoughtseize,sultai charm, some counterspells (don't forget you can play all the mono U counters), maybe Murderous Cut (even without a deck dedicated ot the yard you still fill it incidentily whith the ascendancy, maybe with the new black draw bitter revelation, so it might be useful)
You have card filtering and advantage - Courser of kruphix, sultai ascendancy (yes I do think it is usefull in a control deck as well, since it has effectively two modes, card filtering and fueling the yard), blue and black card draw
Very potent finishers - the theros block sphinx or maybe even empty the pits, since you can wait for it untill your yard is filled enough and you can also use some more mana than just the 4 B to cast it, it will finish the game really quickly if cast in the late game (and you can protect it with counter spells)
They might not give you the tools to make a dominant Sultai deck in this set, but that is probably because the deck already has so much support coming from Theros block.
Rakshava Vizier is completely unplayable. Kheru Lich Lord, completely unplayable. Kheru Spellsnatcher, unplayable. Necropolis Fiend, unplayable. Hooded Hydra, unplayable. Meandering Towershell, unplayable.
What do those cards have in common? They all have a Sultai watermark , they are all hideously overcosted, they all have janky abilities, and they are all rare or mythic. Of the Sultai cards the strongest are the uncommon charm and kill spell and the only other playables are limited to control archetypes (Sidisi, the Ascendancy, Empty the Pits). The other wedges may have jank, but they don't have this many shades of it. The defining attribute of the Sultai is costing 1-3 too much and having a random ability.
The only hope I have for the wedge now is that the trend of having better uncommons and commons continues, because right now I'd take Murderous Cuts and Sultai Charm over every card they've been given.
I get your point, but my point still stands in that we can't say what is definitively "playable" and "unplayable" yet in this upcoming Standard metagame. Let's patiently wait for the full set reveal before making any conclusions, especially on the Delve cards since they require support. As others have already stated, each clan has some strong and weak new cards and Sultai is no exception.
Lastly, if somehow every clan's archetype is fairly balanced and top tier in the upcoming Standard metagame I would be very surprised. There will almost definitely be one or two archetypes that emerge as the upper tier, but hopefully they all do. There are way too many uncertainties at this point.
We can't tell for certain what will be playable, but we can clearly tell what is not. Kheru Lich Lord is not. In all practical terms he is worse than an artifact that costs 2 less mana. 6CMC in standard gets you a Garruk, an Aetherling, or an Elspeth and he is simply not on anything close to that plane of power.
That is one example, but the same applies elsewhere. We can can't truly say whether something outclasses other options in the same role, but we can see when that something is not efficient. That is off a little for the Delve cards, which have variable efficiency, but we can still look at cards like Rakshava Vizier and know that they are overcosted.
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EDIT: I shouldn't do multiple things at the same time, every time I say dredge, I actually mean Delve. Oops...
- Manite
I'm guessing you meant Delve each time there since Dredge is very synergistic with itself (too synergistic perhaps).
It's true, Delve isn't a linear synergistic mechanic and for me that's a good thing. I like that it requires thought and balancing to work out how many/what Delve cards to run and what (if any) graveyard enablers are needed. I like that I won't just be throwing a lot of Delve cards into a deck and calling it a day. But then I like deck building, I don't want wizards to build my decks for me, some people want their decks handed to them by wizards and Delve is definitely not for those people.
Back to the main argument -
On the whole overcosted thing i'd like to bring up Rakshasa Deathdealer - it like many of the other cards mentioned earlier has the sultai watermark, but it's in no way overcosted, it's a very efficient 2cc 2/2 regenerating shade that has a good chance to see play in standard (if nothing else the fact it can beat through Courser after 1 pump is a huge mark in it's favour).
Machius proudly supports R_E's right to Rumour!
I very much agree with your sentiments, but you act as if a mechanic must either be linearly synergistic on anti-synergistic. This is a false dichotomy because there is at least one more option. Simply non-synergistic. For example. Monstrous is a mechanic which is non-synergistic. Running a single monstrous card, doesn't make your other monstrous cards any weaker or stronger. Most mechanics are non-synergistic. Delve is the only mechanic I know of that is actually anti-synergistic. In constructed, the anti-synergy doesn't matter much because you have complete control over the number of delve cards you run. But in limited....
- Manite