I understand why a lot of you say Tarkir is kinda weak on the power scale, but at least the place is interesting IMO. I thought Theros was boring in draft, flavor and power. At least Khans is doing something different in Wedges. We were warned to not expect an enchantment matters block, but it felt so weak man. The fact that it sold the most makes me shudder, since we might go back to Theros in the far off future.
I agree with your opinion about Theros. I quit Magic during that time. Khans is a step in the right direction with its flavor. I hate the five factions fight each other thing though. It's starting to get old.
Tarkir is far more interesting than Theros. Tarkir has an interesting backstory and it isn't 100% ripped off of a specific mythology. TBH though I am far more interested in the upcoming sets.
How is five factions fighting each other getting old? I don't remember the last time we had five factions actively fighting each other. The guilds on Ravnica don't generally fight other than for special events like the Dragon's Maze and a couple of the guilds that just don't get along with each other. It was nothing near an all-out war, though. The shards of Alara were completely seperate for the beginning of the block, and while they certainly had some issues with each other when they merged back together, it was far from a war between them all (the main struggle in that block was the other walkers vs. Bolas).
We do get two factions at war with each other quite often, which is getting a bit trite, but that's generally how stories in games go. I think this is the first time we've ever had five factions in an all-out war with each other, at least for quite some time.
I knew someone would bring this up. I should have been more clear about my point. What I am starting to dislike is that many of the sets have "factions" based around a color scheme. While it works as a design idea, it shouldn't be used every other block. Lorwyn had colored factions, Alara did, Zendikar did not (it did have factions, not colored ones though, and I don't have a problem with it), Scars of Mirrodin had factions and ended up going colored factions by the time of New Phyrexia, Innistrad had colored factions, Return to Ravnica obviously had colored factions, Theros had factions but they weren't colored, and Khans has colored factions. What I mean by colored factions are things like New Phyrexia's each mono color is now it's own faction which will fight against all the others. It's starting to get old to me. Sometimes it feels forced.
That's fair, and I can get behind it a bit more when you put it that way. They do seem to make factions just for the sake of it sometimes. It's an easy way for them to make the colors distinctive in the story, I suppose. It would be nice to return to something more like the weatherlight crew, where the story of the set (or block) is focused on a handful of characters and while there may be some minor factions at work they're more in the background, rather than the forefront of the story.
I think Theros actually did a decent job with that, though. As you mentioned there were some factions with the different human cities and the leonin tribe, but they didn't feel forced nor were they omnipresent in most of the cards or the story like the guilds, shards and clans are. The story was mostly about Elspeth, Xenagos, and the gods, with a few key characters showing up to support. As much as I don't care for the Theros block as a whole, it did do some things well, and I feel like the way it handled and represented the different characters and factions was one of those things.
I think that this is part of the problem I have with the seeded booster packs they came up with in Ravnica. They sort of force the feeling of joining a faction at prerelease and release events, and because of that felt really out of place in Theros and M15. I do think they made sense with the guilds and again with the clans, but it sort of feels like it pushes them into creating at least a semblance of five different factions so that they can package them that way. Unfortunately the majority of casual players seemed to really like the packs, so I doubt they'll be going away any time soon. Making the promo random for Khans helps with the unbalance that they create in limited play, but hopefully they can find a more creative way of going about it in the future so it doesn't constantly feel like you have to pick one of five sides in the fight.
You summed up how I felt about this perfectly. I agree completely with your observation of Theros too. I thought the factions weren't forced in it. It felt normal.
MaRo stated that they couldn't make any of the new mechanics complex as the already had morph. If they put any more complex mechanics in than that would make the set too complex. My question is when was rhe last time there was a mechanic that no one understood and where judges couldn't really help. I'm thinking banding. I personally love complex mechanics as they usually lead to complex and innovative decks.
I know transform and cipher had a few players scratching their heads.
Also keep in mind that most likely the clan mechanics will only show up in the first set and MAYBE in the second set, so why bother trying to make deep complex mechanics that won't be used very much. eel out of place but they work with the muti-color theme and work with delve, which is more I can say about other duel-land cycles we have gotten before.
I hope the mechanics stay throughout. I just really want a cycle of wedge dragons with clan abilities and synergy with them, like a super-powerful Sultai dragon with Delve that self-mills for 10 when it attacks or an Abzan dragon with outlast that makes each creature with a +1/+1 counter on it unblockable and indestructible.
I agree. It is a strange time for limited where there is so much color fixing and not a demolish to be seen. What with the fetchlands, refuge lands, tri-lands, the banners, along with a few creatures to help mana bases along like mardu warshrieker.
They've stated many times they want to avoid good land-destruction, as it leads to games just not being fun. Same thing with having efficient counterspells without huge restrictions. They both can lead to games where one person simply can't do anything, and that's just not fun for them.
Now I don't completely agree with that (particularly because I love having things like mana leak to play around with in tempo and control decks) but it's the direction they've been moving in for a couple years now.
4 mana land destruction isn't good by any means. Also, the game was growing rapidly while Mana Leak was still legal. It didn't increase growth as far as I know any more than it was increasing already when they stopped printing it.
I dunno. The cards themselves aren't necessarily weak, but they just seem very by the book and hedged. There were maybe five cards in the set that I wasn't immediately like "Ya that's obviously playable or "Ya that's completely unplayable". This spoiler season was a rather boring exercise in card evaluation.
MaRo stated that they couldn't make any of the new mechanics complex as the already had morph. If they put any more complex mechanics in than that would make the set too complex. My question is when was rhe last time there was a mechanic that no one understood and where judges couldn't really help. I'm thinking banding. I personally love complex mechanics as they usually lead to complex and innovative decks.
I know transform and cipher had a few players scratching their heads.
Also keep in mind that most likely the clan mechanics will only show up in the first set and MAYBE in the second set, so why bother trying to make deep complex mechanics that won't be used very much. eel out of place but they work with the muti-color theme and work with delve, which is more I can say about other duel-land cycles we have gotten before.
I hope the mechanics stay throughout. I just really want a cycle of wedge dragons with clan abilities and synergy with them, like a super-powerful Sultai dragon with Delve that self-mills for 10 when it attacks or an Abzan dragon with outlast that makes each creature with a +1/+1 counter on it unblockable and indestructible.
I agree. It is a strange time for limited where there is so much color fixing and not a demolish to be seen. What with the fetchlands, refuge lands, tri-lands, the banners, along with a few creatures to help mana bases along like mardu warshrieker.
They've stated many times they want to avoid good land-destruction, as it leads to games just not being fun. Same thing with having efficient counterspells without huge restrictions. They both can lead to games where one person simply can't do anything, and that's just not fun for them.
Now I don't completely agree with that (particularly because I love having things like mana leak to play around with in tempo and control decks) but it's the direction they've been moving in for a couple years now.
4 mana land destruction isn't good by any means. Also, the game was growing rapidly while Mana Leak was still legal. It didn't increase growth as far as I know any more than it was increasing already when they stopped printing it.
Going by how they had done Large-small-Large blocks, I think it is a safe bet that the mechanics won't be returning. However I could see a cards that work into the clans play styles even if they don't have the mechanic. Thinking about it, maybe thats one reason the mechanics are kinda boring and simple in this set, so they can put in support cards easier in FTF and Louie. Abzan: +1/+1 counter support, Jeskai: cheap combat trick spells, Sultai: milling effect, Mardu: Attacking enablers and Temur: 4+ powered creature, all of which are easy to enable, even with out the mechanics. Anyways the only mechanic I can see sticking through all three sets is morph.
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“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Just want to add my two cents that this set is incredibly boring. Ever since New World Order we've had this slow slide toward more and more monotonous magic. I absolutely agree that creatures should be an important part of the game, but they are rapidly becoming the only part of the game (along with planeswalkers).
I absolutely hate how morph is done in this set. The vast majority of morph creatures in this set are either utility creatures that create an effect when they unmorph or are creatures that get bigger or better in some way when unmorphed. In Onslaught Block there was a legitimate question as to whether you should block a morphed attacker or not. On the one hand, you might get owned if the creature flips into something bigger or with first strike. On the other hand, if you didn't block it might be a creature that punishes you for not blocking. Thus, a lot of effort went into understanding your opponent. It was a great opportunity for bluffs and mind games. Now why would you ever block unless you absolutely have to?
With the game pushing more and more toward sorcery speed (see outlast, for example) it's less likely that you will have mana up on your opponent's turn. Thus the attacker has a huge advantage in combat involving morphs. I suspect this will play out similarly to Zendikar block in which landfall gave a huge advantage to the attacker.
It seems more and more like Wizards thinks that Timmy and Vorthos are the only demographics that matter (along with every set throwing a bone to spike in the form of a reprint like the fetches, thoughtseize, mutavault etc.)
Correction: Maro said multicolour block. He even went out of his way and corrected player assumptions by saying that Tarkir-Block was infact not a multicolour block. Only KTK is multicolour.
By claiming and selling it as a multicolor set almost feels like a lie. Consider that an as-fan of Khans is 1.58 and RTR is 3+...
I think Khans' disappointment stems from multiple angles, and not just due to power level.
The only land destruction Alara block had was a 5 mana Demolish with cycling and that was when they were printing 3 mana land destruction and Fulminator Mage. Decent land destruction in a tricolor limited environment would be one of the premium picks that would win a lot of games by itself. I really doubt we'll see Demolish rotate or anything, though. It's been with us in standard since Stone Rain left.
I really like Theros, in fact i like all sets.. i'm a big standard player.. i just play with what they give us, i don't complain. Standard is like a big puzzle set, they give us X pieces and we just have to work with 'em.
I don't want to much power cards because you're going to lose to them also, i like where standard is, a few medium cards, a few good ones, lots of bad crap !
The only land destruction Alara block had was a 5 mana Demolish with cycling and that was when they were printing 3 mana land destruction and Fulminator Mage. Decent land destruction in a tricolor limited environment would be one of the premium picks that would win a lot of games by itself. I really doubt we'll see Demolish rotate or anything, though. It's been with us in standard since Stone Rain left.
I hope that logic is true, seeing as how there was strangely none in M15.
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Generals
Vorosh BUG
Sygg
Molimo
Intent RUG
Rith RWG
Purphoros
Last time, what could $20 get us? In Lorwyn we could get cryptic and mutavault, only bitterblossom and Garruk were higher in that block.
Now, what does $20 get us? Hero's Downfall at its peak was close to that amount, which was a ludicrous thing. And that is just spot removal. Lorwyn's most expensive removal spell was Profane Command, but it only commanded a $10 price. And the relative power, I believe it isn't close; Profane is the better card overall for what it can do.
What I'm saying is that if we argue on relative terms, we aren't really getting the bang for our buck. Fetchlands aside of course.
There are many factors to consider when thinking on a set's potential power, and its value. Some of these factors include...
Wedge-centric setting - allows for more tools for EDH (a favorite environment of mine) and to introduce new concepts that have only been partially touched on previously.
Set flavor - I enjoy the Mongol-Chinese setting, it's something I've personally longed for, and that will satisfy many other people who value more than just mechanics.
Quality commons/uncommons - there are a great many, and IMO that makes for a healthy set in terms of play balance and Limited environment. Uncommon wedge lands. Common Refuge lands, absolutely great move. Also great for casual markets and players, and let's not forget; casual magic is where WotC makes most of its money, not competitive constructed. Higher profile, yes. Biggest source of income? No.
Reintroduction of Onslaught Fetches - people have begged for it, and Wizards gave them up.
Morph - a caveat here: It's not strictly bad, but after the full set was spoiled I looked over the Morph offerings, and while some seemed good, most seemed... lackluster. In fact, I wonder why some of them have Morph at all, especially when it grants neither a bonus in the way of an ability upon morphing, nor a significant reduction in casting cost. There is less mystery to Morph here, fewer tricks. If someone has a morph creature out, you may not know what it is (without a card that lets you know), but you can likely predict the outcome save for a couple of creatures (like the Spellsnatcher). I have yet to see what it will do in this environment.
Weaker average rares - I have noted there are many rares that are truly "meh" here, and the value once again seems to be concentrated in the Mythics and the Fetches. I expect the Top cards to look something like this
1: Sarkhan (M)
2-6: Fetches (R Land)
7: Clever Impersonator (M)
8: Sorin (M)
9: Surrak (M)
10: Anafenza (M)
11: Wingmate Roc (M)
12: Utter End (R)
13: Butcher of the Horde (R)
14: Narset (M)
15: Savage Knuckleblade (R)
16: Sdisi (M)
17: Empty the Pits (M)
18: See the Unwritten (M)
19: Bloodsoaked Champion (R)
20: Siege Rhino (R)
21: Rattleclaw Mystic (R)
Now technically that's 11 rares of 21 cards, but 5 of those rares are fetches, and highly desirable rare lands always get the big price-tag, Mythic grade prices. The other 6 rares are all around $5-6 in my estimation, but Utter End will climb, once again giving us highly desirable rare removal (*cough*Hero's Downfall*cough), and then you have 5 rares whose existence on the list will depend upon the meta. Beyond these cards there is a gulf between the low and the high of several dollars - only End Hostilities and Dig Through Time float somewhere in the middle ($3-ish). Now being perfectly honest this all looks fairly normal, to how it has been lately, but it does again show, for me, the value is concentrated in the Mythics and chase rare lands. EDH will probably be the deciding factor of the Mythic Khans beyond any standard application, but I believe Anafenza will be desired, as will Surrak. The rest are maybes.
So far this is reminding me of Shards of Alara, which was also heavy on the Mythic value, and led to an environment where you had ***** like Mythic Bant and 5 Color Control wandering around, standard decks that could cost $750-1,000... just mind boggling for me back then (I was running GW Elfball, which did well until 5CC became dominant. Dealing with UB Faeries was bad enough... oh, also a $500 or more deck). But there was also Jund, a $250-300 deck at the time that could take all comers and was a force for a long time. Unlike Alara, KTK has a pro/con situation (Fetches - might help decks, might make them more expensive, or they may not have as much impact since they don't have Shocks to synergize with), and unlike Enemy Fetches in Zendikar which had landfall to work with, but which acts as a boon to Modern and Legacy. In standard, I'm not sure how powerful they will be. Expect the BUG fetches to be most useful if Dredge does anything at all. And then there are those higher quality commons/uncommons, which frankly Alara lacked in number. Alara had a TON of uplayable chaff, particularly at common. And when I mean unplayable, I mean kitchen-table unplayable. I've used Alara block commons and uncommons for more craft projects than I have decks. Theros wasn't even that bad. Avacyn Restored wasn't that bad. But Alara is still remembered as a great block.
And as for power level, comparing one set entering standard to another leaving standard is pointless - standard is what standard is. No more. No less. The only time this is an issue is when one set is CLEARLY inferior to its predecessor AND its current standard partner, so much so that it causes a vacuum of sorts in the meta (I'm looking at you, Kamigawa). Despite what naysayers will say, KTK is no Kamigawa - NO SET IN MODERN MAGIC WILL MAKE THAT MISTAKE AGAIN. What I see in KTK is an attempt to reach out to as many player bases as possible - Modern/Legacy (Fetches, and hey, maybe more. Remember the lesson of Deathrite Shaman), EDH (wedge commanders, more bomby fun spells), casual players (good commons/uncommons, including land support), and Limited players (trying to balance the play to allow for what appears to be a slower format). Its mechanics are not insular, they reach across many sets, and even after it has rotated KTK cards will find homes in many decks for years to come. Raid, Outlast, Dredge, Ferocious, Prowess - whether these mechanics excite or are considered innovative, they are at least versatile enough beyond their own block to avoid the death sentence of insular mechanics.
Also, take that list above - I see that moving and shaking a lot, save for the top 6 places. Sarkhan will not budge from top spot, I don't see it. He's basically a hasty dragon that can Flame Slash or give you massive CA if you get that far. Add that he is Mythic, and so he will remain. The fetches will also likely remain, but they may jostle with Sorin and Surrak if both find footing in standard. But I see things off list that could move up, and low cards at the moment that can climb. Someone else mentioned Desecration Demon. I sang his praises from day one, most other people said it was crap. I hoarded them. In the end, I won out on that. And I can tell you now, there may be a couple Desecration Demons in this set. I'm looking forward to it.
Really then, what I'm trying to say is, don't try to compare Khans to Ravnica, or whatever other set, because those other sets are not in standard (well, RTR is for another week :P), look at it beside the other block and core set it works with, and figure it out. It looks to be a nice change of pace. And control players - calm yourselves. This happens every transition, the death of control is heralded, the creatures are out of control, woe and doom to all! A month passes, the aggro meta is set, and control finds its footing, and bam, Control takes... well... control. At any rate, does anyone REALLY want to go back to Draw/Go *****? Talk about boring. THEY ARE NEVER REPRINTING COUNTERSPELL. STOP. JUST STOP. The meta is the meta, standard is standard, and either you adapt or you sit it out. And don't complain about a lack of "POWER" cards, then later complain about power creep. You can't have it both ways. Or you end up like Yu-Gi-Oh. Does anyone want Magic to become Yu-Gi-Oh? Some might say it has, but if you do, you don't really know. Magic is still healthy, still growing, and looks to continue that way.
TL;DR You can't please everyone, so stop *****ing about the sky falling. Adapt, build, play, or don't. Look to innovate, don't expect the power to just be dropped in your lap.
EDIT: Oh, Clever Impersonator, I forgot, that one I am watching. It could climb above a less favorable Fetch, and might even vie for 2nd or 3rd in time. That is a POWERFUL clone variant...
Ezuri, Renegade Leader (Aggro/Combo - Favorite) Skullbriar, the Walking Grave (Sac and Grave hijinks) Azusa, Lost but Seeking (Landfall hijinks) Kaalia of the Vast (Heavily modded)
EDIT: Quotes got messed up somehow, so just removing the quote blocks:
" "1. Why the hell are you curving Ascendancy into Intruder Alarm. You use them as either of your combo engines, not together. Also, if the mana cost is so hard I guess Zoo NEVER gets to all 3 colors on turn 3. If there is even the smallest potential of it getting played in Modern, someone will make the mana work."
Hey, you never mentioned what the supposed combo was, so I just assumed that you had some idea that worked with the two. Feel free to post this combo of yours."
Well, I'm thinking about possibly experimenting with it with sprout swarm. It can combo with either intruder alarm or jeskai ascendancy, and a mana dork + token making plan in general works with either card. It isn't clear if its good enough, but it is in that space where it might actually work. It is also possible it will work as a tool in control or some other combo deck like storm. In standard, Jeskai ascendancy has a possible infinite combo and some potential as a storm-style enabler, and its unclear if it will find a place or not. I love cards like that though, where you can't be sure one way or another and have to experiment and see how it works. My personal guess is that it is probably going to be able to make tier 2 decks in modern and standard that work well enough for FNM, but don't make it to the top tables at GPs. I could be wrong though, and I'm looking forward to finding out.
Also, if your deck needs it badly enough, Modern has the manabase between rainbow lands and fetch+shocks to support 3 or 4 color without too much in the way of issues. You need to be combo if you're doing that though, since all the rainbow land have drawbacks that hurt bad for the long game, and it does leave you weak to blood moon. I've been running 3 color storm for a while now though, you don't hit mana problems very often.
I love these threads. In a world of uncertainty and doubt it's nice to have islands of consistency, and the Salvation forums being the home of the worst card evaluation on the planet is one of my pillars. Now that the set's revealed to have multiple Legacy playables good enough to be deck staples and a modern build around so powerful that only question is how long until it's banned, I wonder if any of the haters will be by to eat some Storm Crow?
I love these threads. In a world of uncertainty and doubt it's nice to have islands of consistency, and the Salvation forums being the home of the worst card evaluation on the planet is one of my pillars. Now that the set's revealed to have multiple Legacy playables good enough to be deck staples and a modern build around so powerful that only question is how long until it's banned, I wonder if any of the haters will be by to eat some Storm Crow?
Well every set will have its naysayers man its not that everyone on MTGsalvation thought the set sucks.
I love these threads. In a world of uncertainty and doubt it's nice to have islands of consistency, and the Salvation forums being the home of the worst card evaluation on the planet is one of my pillars. Now that the set's revealed to have multiple Legacy playables good enough to be deck staples and a modern build around so powerful that only question is how long until it's banned, I wonder if any of the haters will be by to eat some Storm Crow?
I thought the set's power level would be "pretty good," and I'll admit that I was far too conservative with that assessment. The set is a madhouse.
Well, my evaluation of Jeskai Ascendancy was that it would at least make a Tier 2 deck in standard and modern, but could be better than that. It turns out that it is every bit as good as I could have hoped in modern...
This is the new homelands, this set has a lot of crap in it. Actually the actual metagame is not going to be affected that much when ravnica rotate, we only have to change 2 or 3 cards with some equivalent of khans and there you go, same decks.
Very insightful post! I'm curious how you feel about the set now that your prediction has been proven utterly incompatible with reality?
I love these threads. In a world of uncertainty and doubt it's nice to have islands of consistency, and the Salvation forums being the home of the worst card evaluation on the planet is one of my pillars. Now that the set's revealed to have multiple Legacy playables good enough to be deck staples and a modern build around so powerful that only question is how long until it's banned, I wonder if any of the haters will be by to eat some Storm Crow?
I thought the set's power level would be "pretty good," and I'll admit that I was far too conservative with that assessment. The set is a madhouse.
Um...what? The set's power level isn't anywhere near Innistrad or New Phyrexia levels. It's definitely comparable to Theros (which I have no problem with). Wizards did something very well with this set, and that was to make cards that are very powerful in older formats, but don't really make as much of a splash in Standard (mostly because Standard is missing the huge number of 0 and 1 CMC spells that fills the older formats). Also, Jeskai Ascendancy will also likely get banned in Modern.
Quote from Temporal_Chrono »
This is the new homelands, this set has a lot of crap in it. Actually the actual metagame is not going to be affected that much when ravnica rotate, we only have to change 2 or 3 cards with some equivalent of khans and there you go, same decks.
Hmmm top 8 in the pt 3 Jeskai Burn Decks, 3 Azban Decks, U/B control Jeskai Combo, yup same decks alright.
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You summed up how I felt about this perfectly. I agree completely with your observation of Theros too. I thought the factions weren't forced in it. It felt normal.
I hope the mechanics stay throughout. I just really want a cycle of wedge dragons with clan abilities and synergy with them, like a super-powerful Sultai dragon with Delve that self-mills for 10 when it attacks or an Abzan dragon with outlast that makes each creature with a +1/+1 counter on it unblockable and indestructible.
4 mana land destruction isn't good by any means. Also, the game was growing rapidly while Mana Leak was still legal. It didn't increase growth as far as I know any more than it was increasing already when they stopped printing it.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Going by how they had done Large-small-Large blocks, I think it is a safe bet that the mechanics won't be returning. However I could see a cards that work into the clans play styles even if they don't have the mechanic. Thinking about it, maybe thats one reason the mechanics are kinda boring and simple in this set, so they can put in support cards easier in FTF and Louie. Abzan: +1/+1 counter support, Jeskai: cheap combat trick spells, Sultai: milling effect, Mardu: Attacking enablers and Temur: 4+ powered creature, all of which are easy to enable, even with out the mechanics. Anyways the only mechanic I can see sticking through all three sets is morph.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
I absolutely hate how morph is done in this set. The vast majority of morph creatures in this set are either utility creatures that create an effect when they unmorph or are creatures that get bigger or better in some way when unmorphed. In Onslaught Block there was a legitimate question as to whether you should block a morphed attacker or not. On the one hand, you might get owned if the creature flips into something bigger or with first strike. On the other hand, if you didn't block it might be a creature that punishes you for not blocking. Thus, a lot of effort went into understanding your opponent. It was a great opportunity for bluffs and mind games. Now why would you ever block unless you absolutely have to?
With the game pushing more and more toward sorcery speed (see outlast, for example) it's less likely that you will have mana up on your opponent's turn. Thus the attacker has a huge advantage in combat involving morphs. I suspect this will play out similarly to Zendikar block in which landfall gave a huge advantage to the attacker.
It seems more and more like Wizards thinks that Timmy and Vorthos are the only demographics that matter (along with every set throwing a bone to spike in the form of a reprint like the fetches, thoughtseize, mutavault etc.)
By claiming and selling it as a multicolor set almost feels like a lie. Consider that an as-fan of Khans is 1.58 and RTR is 3+...
I think Khans' disappointment stems from multiple angles, and not just due to power level.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
I don't want to much power cards because you're going to lose to them also, i like where standard is, a few medium cards, a few good ones, lots of bad crap !
I hope that logic is true, seeing as how there was strangely none in M15.
Vorosh BUG
Sygg
Molimo
Intent RUG
Rith RWG
Purphoros
GWU Bant Manifest - The Future Is Here. Or it will be at the end of turn. GWU
Now, what does $20 get us? Hero's Downfall at its peak was close to that amount, which was a ludicrous thing. And that is just spot removal. Lorwyn's most expensive removal spell was Profane Command, but it only commanded a $10 price. And the relative power, I believe it isn't close; Profane is the better card overall for what it can do.
What I'm saying is that if we argue on relative terms, we aren't really getting the bang for our buck. Fetchlands aside of course.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
Wedge-centric setting - allows for more tools for EDH (a favorite environment of mine) and to introduce new concepts that have only been partially touched on previously.
Set flavor - I enjoy the Mongol-Chinese setting, it's something I've personally longed for, and that will satisfy many other people who value more than just mechanics.
Quality commons/uncommons - there are a great many, and IMO that makes for a healthy set in terms of play balance and Limited environment. Uncommon wedge lands. Common Refuge lands, absolutely great move. Also great for casual markets and players, and let's not forget; casual magic is where WotC makes most of its money, not competitive constructed. Higher profile, yes. Biggest source of income? No.
Reintroduction of Onslaught Fetches - people have begged for it, and Wizards gave them up.
Morph - a caveat here: It's not strictly bad, but after the full set was spoiled I looked over the Morph offerings, and while some seemed good, most seemed... lackluster. In fact, I wonder why some of them have Morph at all, especially when it grants neither a bonus in the way of an ability upon morphing, nor a significant reduction in casting cost. There is less mystery to Morph here, fewer tricks. If someone has a morph creature out, you may not know what it is (without a card that lets you know), but you can likely predict the outcome save for a couple of creatures (like the Spellsnatcher). I have yet to see what it will do in this environment.
Weaker average rares - I have noted there are many rares that are truly "meh" here, and the value once again seems to be concentrated in the Mythics and the Fetches. I expect the Top cards to look something like this
1: Sarkhan (M)
2-6: Fetches (R Land)
7: Clever Impersonator (M)
8: Sorin (M)
9: Surrak (M)
10: Anafenza (M)
11: Wingmate Roc (M)
12: Utter End (R)
13: Butcher of the Horde (R)
14: Narset (M)
15: Savage Knuckleblade (R)
16: Sdisi (M)
17: Empty the Pits (M)
18: See the Unwritten (M)
19: Bloodsoaked Champion (R)
20: Siege Rhino (R)
21: Rattleclaw Mystic (R)
Now technically that's 11 rares of 21 cards, but 5 of those rares are fetches, and highly desirable rare lands always get the big price-tag, Mythic grade prices. The other 6 rares are all around $5-6 in my estimation, but Utter End will climb, once again giving us highly desirable rare removal (*cough*Hero's Downfall*cough), and then you have 5 rares whose existence on the list will depend upon the meta. Beyond these cards there is a gulf between the low and the high of several dollars - only End Hostilities and Dig Through Time float somewhere in the middle ($3-ish). Now being perfectly honest this all looks fairly normal, to how it has been lately, but it does again show, for me, the value is concentrated in the Mythics and chase rare lands. EDH will probably be the deciding factor of the Mythic Khans beyond any standard application, but I believe Anafenza will be desired, as will Surrak. The rest are maybes.
So far this is reminding me of Shards of Alara, which was also heavy on the Mythic value, and led to an environment where you had ***** like Mythic Bant and 5 Color Control wandering around, standard decks that could cost $750-1,000... just mind boggling for me back then (I was running GW Elfball, which did well until 5CC became dominant. Dealing with UB Faeries was bad enough... oh, also a $500 or more deck). But there was also Jund, a $250-300 deck at the time that could take all comers and was a force for a long time. Unlike Alara, KTK has a pro/con situation (Fetches - might help decks, might make them more expensive, or they may not have as much impact since they don't have Shocks to synergize with), and unlike Enemy Fetches in Zendikar which had landfall to work with, but which acts as a boon to Modern and Legacy. In standard, I'm not sure how powerful they will be. Expect the BUG fetches to be most useful if Dredge does anything at all. And then there are those higher quality commons/uncommons, which frankly Alara lacked in number. Alara had a TON of uplayable chaff, particularly at common. And when I mean unplayable, I mean kitchen-table unplayable. I've used Alara block commons and uncommons for more craft projects than I have decks. Theros wasn't even that bad. Avacyn Restored wasn't that bad. But Alara is still remembered as a great block.
And as for power level, comparing one set entering standard to another leaving standard is pointless - standard is what standard is. No more. No less. The only time this is an issue is when one set is CLEARLY inferior to its predecessor AND its current standard partner, so much so that it causes a vacuum of sorts in the meta (I'm looking at you, Kamigawa). Despite what naysayers will say, KTK is no Kamigawa - NO SET IN MODERN MAGIC WILL MAKE THAT MISTAKE AGAIN. What I see in KTK is an attempt to reach out to as many player bases as possible - Modern/Legacy (Fetches, and hey, maybe more. Remember the lesson of Deathrite Shaman), EDH (wedge commanders, more bomby fun spells), casual players (good commons/uncommons, including land support), and Limited players (trying to balance the play to allow for what appears to be a slower format). Its mechanics are not insular, they reach across many sets, and even after it has rotated KTK cards will find homes in many decks for years to come. Raid, Outlast, Dredge, Ferocious, Prowess - whether these mechanics excite or are considered innovative, they are at least versatile enough beyond their own block to avoid the death sentence of insular mechanics.
Also, take that list above - I see that moving and shaking a lot, save for the top 6 places. Sarkhan will not budge from top spot, I don't see it. He's basically a hasty dragon that can Flame Slash or give you massive CA if you get that far. Add that he is Mythic, and so he will remain. The fetches will also likely remain, but they may jostle with Sorin and Surrak if both find footing in standard. But I see things off list that could move up, and low cards at the moment that can climb. Someone else mentioned Desecration Demon. I sang his praises from day one, most other people said it was crap. I hoarded them. In the end, I won out on that. And I can tell you now, there may be a couple Desecration Demons in this set. I'm looking forward to it.
Really then, what I'm trying to say is, don't try to compare Khans to Ravnica, or whatever other set, because those other sets are not in standard (well, RTR is for another week :P), look at it beside the other block and core set it works with, and figure it out. It looks to be a nice change of pace. And control players - calm yourselves. This happens every transition, the death of control is heralded, the creatures are out of control, woe and doom to all! A month passes, the aggro meta is set, and control finds its footing, and bam, Control takes... well... control. At any rate, does anyone REALLY want to go back to Draw/Go *****? Talk about boring. THEY ARE NEVER REPRINTING COUNTERSPELL. STOP. JUST STOP. The meta is the meta, standard is standard, and either you adapt or you sit it out. And don't complain about a lack of "POWER" cards, then later complain about power creep. You can't have it both ways. Or you end up like Yu-Gi-Oh. Does anyone want Magic to become Yu-Gi-Oh? Some might say it has, but if you do, you don't really know. Magic is still healthy, still growing, and looks to continue that way.
TL;DR You can't please everyone, so stop *****ing about the sky falling. Adapt, build, play, or don't. Look to innovate, don't expect the power to just be dropped in your lap.
EDIT: Oh, Clever Impersonator, I forgot, that one I am watching. It could climb above a less favorable Fetch, and might even vie for 2nd or 3rd in time. That is a POWERFUL clone variant...
Commander
Ezuri, Renegade Leader (Aggro/Combo - Favorite)
Skullbriar, the Walking Grave (Sac and Grave hijinks)
Azusa, Lost but Seeking (Landfall hijinks)
Kaalia of the Vast (Heavily modded)
Standard
Waiting for Innistrad...
Extended
Hah!
Modern
Living End Cascade (RGB)
Legacy
Burn
Vintage
None
Casual
WB Aggro-Control
Green Stompy
Pink Floyd (UWr Wall Control)
Lunch Box (Fatty ramp)
D-Bag (White Control)
Level 13 Task Mage
" "1. Why the hell are you curving Ascendancy into Intruder Alarm. You use them as either of your combo engines, not together. Also, if the mana cost is so hard I guess Zoo NEVER gets to all 3 colors on turn 3. If there is even the smallest potential of it getting played in Modern, someone will make the mana work."
Hey, you never mentioned what the supposed combo was, so I just assumed that you had some idea that worked with the two. Feel free to post this combo of yours."
Well, I'm thinking about possibly experimenting with it with sprout swarm. It can combo with either intruder alarm or jeskai ascendancy, and a mana dork + token making plan in general works with either card. It isn't clear if its good enough, but it is in that space where it might actually work. It is also possible it will work as a tool in control or some other combo deck like storm. In standard, Jeskai ascendancy has a possible infinite combo and some potential as a storm-style enabler, and its unclear if it will find a place or not. I love cards like that though, where you can't be sure one way or another and have to experiment and see how it works. My personal guess is that it is probably going to be able to make tier 2 decks in modern and standard that work well enough for FNM, but don't make it to the top tables at GPs. I could be wrong though, and I'm looking forward to finding out.
Also, if your deck needs it badly enough, Modern has the manabase between rainbow lands and fetch+shocks to support 3 or 4 color without too much in the way of issues. You need to be combo if you're doing that though, since all the rainbow land have drawbacks that hurt bad for the long game, and it does leave you weak to blood moon. I've been running 3 color storm for a while now though, you don't hit mana problems very often.
Well every set will have its naysayers man its not that everyone on MTGsalvation thought the set sucks.
Feel free to bid on my cards here!
I thought the set's power level would be "pretty good," and I'll admit that I was far too conservative with that assessment. The set is a madhouse.
Very insightful post! I'm curious how you feel about the set now that your prediction has been proven utterly incompatible with reality?
GWU Bant Manifest - The Future Is Here. Or it will be at the end of turn. GWU
no
Um...what? The set's power level isn't anywhere near Innistrad or New Phyrexia levels. It's definitely comparable to Theros (which I have no problem with). Wizards did something very well with this set, and that was to make cards that are very powerful in older formats, but don't really make as much of a splash in Standard (mostly because Standard is missing the huge number of 0 and 1 CMC spells that fills the older formats). Also, Jeskai Ascendancy will also likely get banned in Modern.
GWU Bant Manifest - The Future Is Here. Or it will be at the end of turn. GWU
Hmmm top 8 in the pt 3 Jeskai Burn Decks, 3 Azban Decks, U/B control Jeskai Combo, yup same decks alright.