I find it hard to believe that you are all arguing over comboing off with this and not discussing the upside of activating planeswalkers on opponents turns. +1 elspeth on your turn, -3 to take out that hasty SB Dragon. This thing has some serious power and will be broken, even with the once per turn clause.
I find it hard to believe that you are all arguing over comboing off with this and not discussing the upside of activating planeswalkers on opponents turns. +1 elspeth on your turn, -3 to take out that hasty SB Dragon. This thing has some serious power and will be broken, even with the once per turn clause.
There is no reason to since there is no way to activate a loyalty ability on your opponents turn. The Veil doesn't let you use loyalty abilities at instant speed. Loyalty abilities are sorcery speed. that is a game rule that there is currently no way around.
It's pretty clearly written on the actual card that you can only use the walker's ability once more. I'm not sure why there is confusion about it. No way to go infinite. Period.
A level 3 judge is smart enough to not comment unless he knows for sure. No amount of rules layering can outdo the knowledge and ruling or a level 3 judge.
Lvl 3 judges are capable of making mistakes, I assure you of that. There's no point in getting completely hung up on what a single judge said.
All humans are capable of making mistakes. However, giving the circumstances. I think we can take his word for it. When was the last time you saw a lvl 3 judge give an incorrect ruling? You don't go around on the rules forums disbelieving judges do you?
You don't go around on the rules forums disbelieving judges do you?
I don't go around on any forums disbelieving a group of people making sensible arguments for why these infinite combos should work just because one judge claims otherwise.
Not just a judge, all judges will tell you the same thing, it's written on the card, where do random users come from that really think they know more about how the game works, it's really odd.
A level 3 judge is smart enough to not comment unless he knows for sure. No amount of rules layering can outdo the knowledge and ruling or a level 3 judge.
Lvl 3 judges are capable of making mistakes, I assure you of that. There's no point in getting completely hung up on what a single judge said.
The thing is that if you can do something "once", it has two different meanings.
Either it's something that you can't normally do, and the effect gives you permission to do so. This is like extra land drops or playing card from graveyard with Karador, Ghost Chieftain. These stack and this is where The Chain Veil belongs to, since it allows you something you normally can't do (activating "spent" planeswalkers).
Or, it can be something that you can normally do, and in this case it's a limitation that forbids you from doing something normally permitted. This is on cards like Rule of Law or Spirit of the Labyrinth.
Two different mechanisms that use the same word, "once". If you have two Explorations out, you can have two extra land drops, but if you have two Spirits of the Labyrinth, you're not allowed two draws per turn.
And it only involves one creature, making it a fairly strong combo (creatures are the most vulnerable permanents, and therefore combos are stronger when they use less creatures).
And good lord, this one isn't even rotating out in the fall.
I have to agree with the judge here. The card says "once this turn" not "an additional time this turn". They don't need to say you only are able to activate the chain veil once per turn because the effect itself isn't cumulatively worded.
A level 3 judge is smart enough to not comment unless he knows for sure. No amount of rules layering can outdo the knowledge and ruling or a level 3 judge.
Agreed. It's Riki Hayashi. We're not talking about some random guy throwing out tweets. The wording seems very clear to me from the plain text of the card and past precedent we have with the word "once." They could have very easily left it out had they wanted the interactions people are suggesting.
All the Judge said was that Chain Veil can't go infinite, he did not say in what context, so the position needs to be clarified. Clearly there is a way to create an unbounded loop involving Chain Veil leading to an unbounded number of planeswalker activations regardless of how you interpret the phrase "once this turn".
For example, even if "once this turn" limits you per planeswalker permanent regardless of the number of activations of Veil, it is obvious that there is still a way to "go infinite" with Chain Veil if you are able to blink your planeswalkers in between each Chain Veil activation, say by recurring the card Flicker; as each time they are blinked the planeswalkers are a new permanent and thus no longer affected by any previous "once" limitation.
tldr: The Judge's twitter comment needs to be clarified.
I have to agree with the judge here. The card says "once this turn" not "an additional time this turn". They don't need to say you only are able to activate the chain veil once per turn because the effect itself isn't cumulatively worded.
I'm fairly sure you're wrong. You activate your abilities, then activate Chain Veil. Chain Veil tells you that you can activate it once this turn (it can't just say "you may activate them as though you hadn't yet" - that implies that you can do it over and over). You activate Chain Veil again and can activate them once more this turn as though you hadn't yet. I'd bet money the judge is wrong. It's hardly the first time a judge has been wrong about new wording - they simply know existing rules well.
I have to agree with the judge here. The card says "once this turn" not "an additional time this turn". They don't need to say you only are able to activate the chain veil once per turn because the effect itself isn't cumulatively worded.
Problem with this is that most things in Magic are cumulative, by default. What allows you to activate planeswalkers? The effect. But if you activate The Chain Veil again, you won't "reset" the effect -- you'll get a second, identical effect.
I took a look at the use of word "once". It doesn't help much since so far it's only been used in two context: limiting number of activations of an ability to once per turn (or, rarely, to once in the ability's lifetime), and as a condition on Chaos Orb and Falling Star.
That is restrictive use, limiting what you can already do. But The Chain Veil uses the word in permissive sense, allowing you to do something you can't normally do.
I don't know why people have to use grammar to try to find errors in every new card
[b]The Chain Veil[/b]
Legendary Artifact
At the beginning of your end step, if you didn't activate a loyalty ability of a planeswalker this turn, you lose 2 life.
4, T: For each planeswalker you control, you may activate one of its loyalty abilities once this turn as though none of its loyalty abilities had been activated this turn.
[b]606.1.[/b] Some activated abilities are loyalty abilities, which are subject to special rules. #
[b]606.2.[/b] An activated ability with a loyalty symbol in its cost is a loyalty ability. Normally, only planeswalkers have loyalty abilities. #
[b]606.3.[/b] A player may activate a loyalty ability of a permanent he or she controls any time he or she [b]has priority[/b] and the [b]stack is empty[/b] during a [b]main phase[/b] of his or her turn, [b]but only if no player has previously activated a loyalty ability of that permanent that turn[/b]. #
[b]606.4.[/b] The cost to activate a loyalty ability of a permanent is to put on or remove from that permanent a certain number of loyalty counters, as shown by the loyalty symbol in the abilitys cost. #
[b]606.5.[/b] A loyalty ability with a negative loyalty cost cant be activated unless the permanent has at least that many loyalty counters on it.
[b]For each planeswalker you control, you may activate one of its loyalty abilities once this turn as though none of its loyalty abilities had been activated this turn.[/b]
P1:Lets say you activate the ability of a walker one time this turn.
Ok
P2:Then you use the chain veil
For each planeswalker you control, you may activate one of its loyalty abilities once this turn as though none of its loyalty abilities had been activated this turn.
oh ok[/b]
ok
P3:
then you activate the chain veil again:
For each planeswalker you control, (ok)
you may activate one of its loyalty abilities (ok)
once this turn ( oh yeah so you can not activate 2 times with the same activation of the chain veil...)
as though none of its loyalty abilities had been activated this turn. (ok)
see
reading is ...
lets do rethoric:
if you activate the chain veil again:
you may activate one of its loyalty abilities once this turn as though none of its loyalty abilities had been activated this turn.
soo yeah it ignores how much times those planeswalkers have been activated this turn ... soo
If I control two Karador, Ghost Chieftain, I can cast two creatures from my graveyard, even though Karador specifically says I may cast "one creature card".
If I give my Quicksilver Elemental multiple instances of an ability that can only be activated "once per turn", I can use it multiple times.
If I have two instances of The Chain Veil's effect active, I can apply each of them "once this turn." They do not somehow "see" each other.
Unless WoTC is making a rather nonsensical change to the Comp Rules, what the Judge tweeted is wrong, plain and simple.
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Decks: Standard - Rally, Modern - Kikichord, Legacy - Elves
Commmander - Eight-and-a-Half Tails; Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker; Prime Speaker Zegana; Alesha, Who Smiles at Death; Daxos the Returned; Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest; Patron of the Moonfolk; Animar, Soul of Elements
If I control two Karador, Ghost Chieftain, I can cast two creatures from my graveyard, even though Karador specifically says I may cast "one creature card".
If I give my Quicksilver Elemental multiple instances of an ability that can only be activated "once per turn", I can use it multiple times.
If I have two instances of The Chain Veil's effect active, I can apply each of them "once this turn." They do not somehow "see" each other.
Unless WoTC is making a rather nonsensical change to the Comp Rules, what the Judge tweeted is wrong, plain and simple.
Maybe you should read up on different objects then too, random player comparing rules knowledge to L3s is really funny.
the prouf is:
if you activate the chain veil another time you get :
For each planeswalker you control, you may activate one of its loyalty abilities once this turn as though none of its loyalty abilities had been activated this turn.
oh wait ? i can activate it again
no way but i alread activated it 2 times:
you may activate one of its loyalty abilities once this turn as though none of its loyalty abilities had been activated this turn.
oh man ! nice
cause i may activate one of its abilities while the chain veil's ability is on the stack resolving...
Also :
yes instant speed activations is posible ( but for this one i will wait for the FAC for clarification )
I hate Grammar nazis that always try hard to find erros in fine cards by their wording
This is why the NWO exist in magic's design ( make commons less complex ) cause whe we have things like Generator Servant ( that is a common and people alread tried hard to find a erro in the wording ...) and the chain veil people ultimate fate is chaos driven by the blind "don't work cause it don't work" people that apears to be lurking every new spoiler we have ...
If I control two Karador, Ghost Chieftain, I can cast two creatures from my graveyard, even though Karador specifically says I may cast "one creature card".
If I give my Quicksilver Elemental multiple instances of an ability that can only be activated "once per turn", I can use it multiple times.
If I have two instances of The Chain Veil's effect active, I can apply each of them "once this turn." They do not somehow "see" each other.
Unless WoTC is making a rather nonsensical change to the Comp Rules, what the Judge tweeted is wrong, plain and simple.
Maybe you should read up on different objects then too, random player comparing rules knowledge to L3s is really funny.
One and once are parallels. One is the word that relates to an object and once is the word that relates to an event. If two Karadors let you play two creatures from the graveyard, two of these give you two extra activations - plain and simple.
I'm inclined to believe Riki's ruling, if it were able to be used multiple times the text would be much simpler and succinct. I think this is a card that could have used some sort of reminder text, especially in a core set.
I'm inclined to believe Riki's ruling, if it were able to be used multiple times the text would be much simpler and succinct. I think this is a card that could have used some sort of reminder text, especially in a core set.
again:
If it was ony once you could use the chain veil per turn to make value of it then they would make:
[b]For each planeswalker you control, you may activate one of its loyalty abilities once this turn as though none of its loyalty abilities had been activated this turn.[/b]
P1:Lets say you activate the ability of a walker one time this turn.
Ok
P2:Then you use the chain veil
For each planeswalker you control, you may activate one of its loyalty abilities once this turn as though none of its loyalty abilities had been activated this turn.
oh ok[/b]
ok
P3:
then you activate the chain veil again:
For each planeswalker you control, (ok)
you may activate one of its loyalty abilities (ok)
once this turn ( oh yeah so you can not activate 2 times with the same activation of the chain veil...)
as though none of its loyalty abilities had been activated this turn. (ok)
see
reading is ...
lets do rethoric:
if you activate the chain veil again:
you may activate one of its loyalty abilities once this turn as though none of its loyalty abilities had been activated this turn.
soo yeah it ignores how much times those planeswalkers have been activated this turn ... soo
totaly agree with this!!.
the activate once does only limit the use of the PW ability from the current chainveil activation.
so each activation gives another chance to use the PW because like the first activation of the veil ignores all the PW usages before this one..
Also the prouf is that you activate the ability while chain veil ability is resolving on the stack ...
soo that once is only remenbered there , simple as that..
To people arguing it wouldn't say "once" if it was able to be stacked... how exactly would you word such an ability without using the phrase "once per turn"?
"For each planeswalker you control, you may activate one of its loyalty abilities as though none of its loyalty abilities had been activated this turn."
The above doesn't work the way WoTC wanted it too, because it forces you to activate all the abilities immediately, during the resolution The Chain Veil's ability. It would also have required an ugly "Sorcery Speed" clause to be tacked on to it, since that wording overrides timing restrictions and thus, without a Sorcery speed clause, would have allowed for the use of Loyalty abilities on other players' turns. (Which, again, they don't want.)
"For each planeswalker you control, this turn, you may activate one of its loyalty abilities as though none of its loyalty abilities had been activated this turn."
That would seemingly let you choose one ability of each walker and activate said ability infinite times. So... no.
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Commmander - Eight-and-a-Half Tails; Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker; Prime Speaker Zegana; Alesha, Who Smiles at Death; Daxos the Returned; Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest; Patron of the Moonfolk; Animar, Soul of Elements
To people arguing it wouldn't say "once" if it was able to be stacked... how exactly would you word such an ability without using the phrase "once per turn"?
"For each planeswalker you control, you may activate one of its loyalty abilities as though none of its loyalty abilities had been activated this turn."
The above doesn't work the way WoTC wanted it too, because it forces you to activate all the abilities immediately, during the resolution The Chain Veil's ability. It would also have required an ugly "Sorcery Speed" clause to be tacked on to it, since that wording overrides timing restrictions and thus, without a Sorcery speed clause, would have allowed for the use of Loyalty abilities on other players' turns. (Which, again, they don't want.)
"For each planeswalker you control, this turn, you may activate one of its loyalty abilities as though none of its loyalty abilities had been activated this turn."
That would seemingly let you choose one ability of each walker and activate said ability infinite times. So... no.
this helped :
but still you activate the ability while the ability is resolving and the "once this turn" is to prevent you to use more than 1 ability while the ability of the veil is resolving ....
I think I understand how Chain Veil works and from what I can say, you cannot go infinite but I do have a question (this may have already been answered but sorry, TL;DR):
I have Chain Veil and a Planeswalker (let's say a random Chandra) in play:
I activate Chandra's +1
I use Chain Veil
I activate Chandra's +1 again
Let's say I have tons of mana and a way to untap my Chain Veil during my turn. I use it again.
Can I still use any of Chandra's abilities?
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There is no reason to since there is no way to activate a loyalty ability on your opponents turn. The Veil doesn't let you use loyalty abilities at instant speed. Loyalty abilities are sorcery speed. that is a game rule that there is currently no way around.
All humans are capable of making mistakes. However, giving the circumstances. I think we can take his word for it. When was the last time you saw a lvl 3 judge give an incorrect ruling? You don't go around on the rules forums disbelieving judges do you?
Not just a judge, all judges will tell you the same thing, it's written on the card, where do random users come from that really think they know more about how the game works, it's really odd.
The thing is that if you can do something "once", it has two different meanings.
Either it's something that you can't normally do, and the effect gives you permission to do so. This is like extra land drops or playing card from graveyard with Karador, Ghost Chieftain. These stack and this is where The Chain Veil belongs to, since it allows you something you normally can't do (activating "spent" planeswalkers).
Or, it can be something that you can normally do, and in this case it's a limitation that forbids you from doing something normally permitted. This is on cards like Rule of Law or Spirit of the Labyrinth.
Two different mechanisms that use the same word, "once". If you have two Explorations out, you can have two extra land drops, but if you have two Spirits of the Labyrinth, you're not allowed two draws per turn.
And it only involves one creature, making it a fairly strong combo (creatures are the most vulnerable permanents, and therefore combos are stronger when they use less creatures).
And good lord, this one isn't even rotating out in the fall.
C Kozilek C
GB Gitrog GB
G Titania G
WU Brago WU
GB MerenGB
Duel Commander Decks
UR Keranos UR
BRG Jund BRG
GR Tron GR GW Tron GW
C Eldrazi Tron (SB) C
BG Lantern Control BG
UW Control (SB) UW
Agreed. It's Riki Hayashi. We're not talking about some random guy throwing out tweets. The wording seems very clear to me from the plain text of the card and past precedent we have with the word "once." They could have very easily left it out had they wanted the interactions people are suggesting.
However:
This works. I'm not sure how realistic it is, but it works.
Standard: I, for one, welcome our new rhinoceros overlords
Modern: Pod's dead, Bob's back.
Legacy: Lands, Deathblade, Death and Taxes, Elves, MUD
Retired Legacy: Merfolk, Goblins, Jund, Delver, Reanimator
For example, even if "once this turn" limits you per planeswalker permanent regardless of the number of activations of Veil, it is obvious that there is still a way to "go infinite" with Chain Veil if you are able to blink your planeswalkers in between each Chain Veil activation, say by recurring the card Flicker; as each time they are blinked the planeswalkers are a new permanent and thus no longer affected by any previous "once" limitation.
tldr: The Judge's twitter comment needs to be clarified.
I'm fairly sure you're wrong. You activate your abilities, then activate Chain Veil. Chain Veil tells you that you can activate it once this turn (it can't just say "you may activate them as though you hadn't yet" - that implies that you can do it over and over). You activate Chain Veil again and can activate them once more this turn as though you hadn't yet. I'd bet money the judge is wrong. It's hardly the first time a judge has been wrong about new wording - they simply know existing rules well.
Problem with this is that most things in Magic are cumulative, by default. What allows you to activate planeswalkers? The effect. But if you activate The Chain Veil again, you won't "reset" the effect -- you'll get a second, identical effect.
I took a look at the use of word "once". It doesn't help much since so far it's only been used in two context: limiting number of activations of an ability to once per turn (or, rarely, to once in the ability's lifetime), and as a condition on Chaos Orb and Falling Star.
That is restrictive use, limiting what you can already do. But The Chain Veil uses the word in permissive sense, allowing you to do something you can't normally do.
Legendary Artifact
At the beginning of your end step, if you didn't activate a loyalty ability of a planeswalker this turn, you lose 2 life.
4, T: For each planeswalker you control, you may activate one of its loyalty abilities once this turn as though none of its loyalty abilities had been activated this turn.
[b]606.2.[/b] An activated ability with a loyalty symbol in its cost is a loyalty ability. Normally, only planeswalkers have loyalty abilities. #
[b]606.3.[/b] A player may activate a loyalty ability of a permanent he or she controls any time he or she [b]has priority[/b] and the [b]stack is empty[/b] during a [b]main phase[/b] of his or her turn, [b]but only if no player has previously activated a loyalty ability of that permanent that turn[/b]. #
[b]606.4.[/b] The cost to activate a loyalty ability of a permanent is to put on or remove from that permanent a certain number of loyalty counters, as shown by the loyalty symbol in the abilitys cost. #
[b]For each planeswalker you control, you may activate one of its loyalty abilities once this turn as though none of its loyalty abilities had been activated this turn.[/b]
P1:Lets say you activate the ability of a walker one time this turn.
Ok
P2:Then you use the chain veil
For each planeswalker you control, you may activate one of its loyalty abilities once this turn as though none of its loyalty abilities had been activated this turn.
oh ok[/b]
ok
P3:
then you activate the chain veil again:
For each planeswalker you control, (ok)
you may activate one of its loyalty abilities (ok)
once this turn ( oh yeah so you can not activate 2 times with the same activation of the chain veil...)
as though none of its loyalty abilities had been activated this turn. (ok)
see
reading is ...
lets do rethoric:
if you activate the chain veil again:
you may activate one of its loyalty abilities once this turn as though none of its loyalty abilities had been activated this turn.
soo yeah it ignores how much times those planeswalkers have been activated this turn ... soo
If I give my Quicksilver Elemental multiple instances of an ability that can only be activated "once per turn", I can use it multiple times.
If I have two instances of The Chain Veil's effect active, I can apply each of them "once this turn." They do not somehow "see" each other.
Unless WoTC is making a rather nonsensical change to the Comp Rules, what the Judge tweeted is wrong, plain and simple.
Commmander - Eight-and-a-Half Tails; Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker; Prime Speaker Zegana; Alesha, Who Smiles at Death; Daxos the Returned; Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest; Patron of the Moonfolk; Animar, Soul of Elements
Maybe you should read up on different objects then too, random player comparing rules knowledge to L3s is really funny.
If it was ony once you could use the chain veil per turn to make value of it then they would make:
use this ability once per turn
as we see in :
the prouf is:
if you activate the chain veil another time you get :
For each planeswalker you control, you may activate one of its loyalty abilities once this turn as though none of its loyalty abilities had been activated this turn.
oh wait ? i can activate it again
no way but i alread activated it 2 times:
you may activate one of its loyalty abilities once this turn as though none of its loyalty abilities had been activated this turn.
oh man ! nice
cause i may activate one of its abilities while the chain veil's ability is on the stack resolving...
Also :
yes instant speed activations is posible ( but for this one i will wait for the FAC for clarification )
I hate Grammar nazis that always try hard to find erros in fine cards by their wording
This is why the NWO exist in magic's design ( make commons less complex ) cause whe we have things like Generator Servant ( that is a common and people alread tried hard to find a erro in the wording ...) and the chain veil people ultimate fate is chaos driven by the blind "don't work cause it don't work" people that apears to be lurking every new spoiler we have ...
One and once are parallels. One is the word that relates to an object and once is the word that relates to an event. If two Karadors let you play two creatures from the graveyard, two of these give you two extra activations - plain and simple.
again:
If it was ony once you could use the chain veil per turn to make value of it then they would make:
use this ability once per turn
as we see in :
Also the prouf is that you activate the ability while chain veil ability is resolving on the stack ...
soo that once is only remenbered there , simple as that..
"For each planeswalker you control, you may activate one of its loyalty abilities as though none of its loyalty abilities had been activated this turn."
The above doesn't work the way WoTC wanted it too, because it forces you to activate all the abilities immediately, during the resolution The Chain Veil's ability. It would also have required an ugly "Sorcery Speed" clause to be tacked on to it, since that wording overrides timing restrictions and thus, without a Sorcery speed clause, would have allowed for the use of Loyalty abilities on other players' turns. (Which, again, they don't want.)
"For each planeswalker you control, this turn, you may activate one of its loyalty abilities as though none of its loyalty abilities had been activated this turn."
That would seemingly let you choose one ability of each walker and activate said ability infinite times. So... no.
Commmander - Eight-and-a-Half Tails; Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker; Prime Speaker Zegana; Alesha, Who Smiles at Death; Daxos the Returned; Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest; Patron of the Moonfolk; Animar, Soul of Elements
this helped :
but still you activate the ability while the ability is resolving and the "once this turn" is to prevent you to use more than 1 ability while the ability of the veil is resolving ....
get over this .
Just read the card slowly and you may get it....
I have Chain Veil and a Planeswalker (let's say a random Chandra) in play:
I activate Chandra's +1
I use Chain Veil
I activate Chandra's +1 again
Let's say I have tons of mana and a way to untap my Chain Veil during my turn. I use it again.
Can I still use any of Chandra's abilities?