I love mill, and after being blatantly slapped in the face by wotc and that piece of junk Mirko Vosk, this seems like a step in the right direction for mill creatures.
Of course. Dimir requires finishers. but they don't come in hordes like those peasant elves and soldiers. Dimir and Azorius finishers are like nobility, one at a time. lol That's why with Phenax, Dimir players got lowballed. Twice in a row with Cipher.
Yea I get you. With the templating, Wizards have restricted themselves (or one could say made their life easier), thinking that Devotion can only be met by having creatures. I would argue that enchantments can be a form of devotion that devotees bring to the gods.
C'mon, all they needed to do was organize a birthday party to Xenagos for him to ascend! Wouldn't Phenax be thrilled with some CSI crime scene or something? That's devotion too!
Alas, for simplicity's sake "control" guilds like Azorius and Dimir players have to suck their sorry thumbs and play "bad" cards like creatures. lol
I'm not sure i understand... Devotion counts the colored mana symbols on all permanents, not just creatures.
Alright guys, I've figured this out. Turn 5 win, assuming no removal during process, etc.:
Wall of Frost, Kiora's Follower, Phenax, on board.
Play Duskmantle Guildmage, activate first ability.
Tap Kiora's Follower, get U for Triton Tactics
Tap Wall of Frost, deal 7 damage.
Triton Tactics on Kiora's Follower and Wall of Frost.
Tap Wall of Frost, deal 10 damage.
Untap Wall of Frost with Kiora's Follower ability.
Tap Wall of Frost, deal 10 damage.
If for some reason they're still alive, tap with Phenax for another 7 damage.
A total of 34 damage.
Honestly, I like this direction for mill but don't like that Phenax is a mill card. I just don't see how milling is supposed to represent deception. Just doesn't click...
That said, could phenax find its way into a decent standard deck? If so, what would the deck look like?
To answer these questions, we should consider what cards play well with phenax. It's quite obvious that phenax likes high toughness creatures. High toughness creatures tend to be great blockers. So what likes blockers? Planeswalkers. I believe that if Phenax finds its way into a deck, it will be a kind of super-friends deck in which phenax is one of many potential win cons. For reliabilities sake, as few of these planeswalkers as possible should win via mill. The question then becomes, what planes walkers will we get in m15 and next years set that could be run in UBx. So far, the only decent ones I know of is kiora.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
I'm not sure i understand... Devotion counts the colored mana symbols on all permanents, not just creatures.
Yea I don't think you quite got it. The usual way to turn on your God is having creatures. That was what I was referring to.
Phenax could have gotten Erebos' traits whereby he benefits you and constraints your opponents. That was my bone of contention. He doesn't have to benefit creatures.
What's more, Dimir likes working alone, at most a compact team. Spilling out creatures just to mill seems un-Dimir-ish.
Yea I don't think you quite got it. The usual way to turn on your God is having creatures. That was what I was referring to.
Phenax could have gotten Erebos' traits whereby he benefits you and constraints your opponents. That was my bone of contention. He doesn't have to benefit creatures.
What's more, Dimir likes working alone, at most a compact team. Spilling out creatures just to mill seems un-Dimir-ish.
Dimir defines UB flavor traits mostly in Ravnica only; it is not the be-all-end-all of flavor for the color. In game parlance, it is merely a descriptor applied to the color pairing and really implies no specific game play strategy.
Seriously, people need to realize that thinking about color pairing in terms of Ravnica flavor is needlessly and pointlessly constricting.
A pretty terrible ability imo. To get value, you're needing a lot of high toughness creatures to be both in play AND not attacking. If you have the creatures for the board presence, and they're not Walls, then why aren't you attacking in most cases?
On the plus side, it works well with blockers.
On the down side, mill probably wants to be killing/wiping a lot of the board anyway... so that tends to hinder your own ability to have the creatures to use this effect with.
I can see how it is supposed to fit in a hypothetical UB mill with a lot of defensive creatures. I just don't know how good I feel said deck would be and, as such, how useful this card is. I don't even feel it fits the other Gods' general feel of "May as well play 1 or 2 if I'm in these colors anyway".
I imagine this is indisputably going to be considered the weakest and worst of the allied colored Gods, and maybe worst of the whole God cycle so far.
EDIT: There is ONE interaction I didn't consider... in the form of this being a non-attacking trigger for Inspired. So far in UB that includes two 3-cost 2/2 Bird/Zombie token makers, a blue card that puts permanents into play as Enchantments, and black's Bob wannabe. I'm not sure I'm fond I feel about playing passive creatures with mediocre stats just to interact with this. Anyway, that's a thing.
Does this have Huge synergy with Desecration Demon?
You go to before combat step with Desecration Demon: "Would you like to respond?"
They say yes. In response, you tap him down to Phenax, they Mill 6, you still get the counter?
They say no, you get to attack.
Also, Gary is sitting around waiting to block, you can tap him after for 4 mill.
Seriously, people need to realize that thinking about color pairing in terms of Ravnica flavor is needlessly and pointlessly constricting.
But it's against the core of UB gameplay to play too many creatures. UB is not fast enough to win the game before a sweeper and it's creature quality is not high enough to shrug off a sweeper. All the advantages of UB lies in disruptive spells.
Phenax is a good but 100% unsupported card. People are annoyed because even for EDH, UB players are longing for another angle to build a deck but all they get is mill after mill card.
UB was my favorite two color combination for a long, long time. But it has been ignored over and over and over again to a point I barely read the UB spoils because I already know they will all suck. I mean, look at what UB gets, look at Rev/Supreme Verdict. It's obvious certain colors are getting all the toys - and it's only natural that people gets upset.
Alright guys, I've figured this out. Turn 5 win, assuming no removal during process, etc.:
Wall of Frost, Kiora's Follower, Phenax, on board.
Play Duskmantle Guildmage, activate first ability.
Tap Kiora's Follower, get U for Triton Tactics
Tap Wall of Frost, deal 7 damage.
Triton Tactics on Kiora's Follower and Wall of Frost.
Tap Wall of Frost, deal 10 damage.
Untap Wall of Frost with Kiora's Follower ability.
Tap Wall of Frost, deal 10 damage.
If for some reason they're still alive, tap with Phenax for another 7 damage.
A total of 34 damage.
Wow.... That's actually something I hadn't thought of
But it's against the core of UB gameplay to play too many creatures. UB is not fast enough to win the game before a sweeper and it's creature quality is not high enough to shrug off a sweeper. All the advantages of UB lies in disruptive spells.
Phenax is a good but 100% unsupported card. People are annoyed because even for EDH, UB players are longing for another angle to build a deck but all they get is mill after mill card.
UB was my favorite two color combination for a long, long time. But it has been ignored over and over and over again to a point I barely read the UB spoils because I already know they will all suck. I mean, look at what UB gets, look at Rev/Supreme Verdict. It's obvious certain colors are getting all the toys - and it's only natural that people gets upset.
I agree bro. I love UB. But nope. Wizards doesn't like it
Does Triton Tactics work with Desecration Demon to allow attack?
For example, if someone sacrifices a creature to Desecration Demon, can you cast Triton Tactics to untap and still attack?
If so, Turn 5/6 Phenax mill could be had in Mono-Black splash Blue
T3 Underworld connection
T4 Desecration Demon
T5 Phenax, Mill Demon for 6
T6 Black devotion +1,
Mill Demon for 7, Phenax for 7,
Triton Tactics,
Mill Demon for 10, Phenax for 10
That is 40 cards milled plus the minimum of 12 cards drawn If you have another creature live or convince opponent to put a counter on Demon, easily get another 3-7 mill. Even Mutavaults can turn into Mill 2 (2 mana)
Looks like we already have a turnaround of thoughts on this god. First 12 hours: "LOL another unplayable mill jank card for Dimir!" Next 12 hours: "wow, once you pair him with this guy, this guy and this guy and you do this and this, then it is pretty damn powerful!"
Looks like we already have a turnaround of thoughts on this god. First 12 hours: "LOL another unplayable mill jank card for Dimir!" Next 12 hours: "wow, once you pair him with this guy, this guy and this guy and you do this and this, then it is pretty damn powerful!"
Par for the course... lol
Yeah this is basically what happens with amazing cards like Phenax At first I was laughing because every speculation thing I had read was "oh this time it will be something other than mill!" and alas it was mill, however this mill is actually amazing Can't wait to play with this guy. I don't think anyone can argue against the idea of him having a lot of different potential decks to be built around him at least. Maybe not even amazing decks but just decent ones that might come out of the blue and win at a real tourney.
Does this have Huge synergy with Desecration Demon?
You go to before combat step with Desecration Demon: "Would you like to respond?"
They say yes. In response, you tap him down to Phenax, they Mill 6, you still get the counter?
They say no, you get to attack.
Also, Gary is sitting around waiting to block, you can tap him after for 4 mill.
It doesn't work. If you let them sacrifice a creature the ability finishes resolving and your demon taps. You cannot respond.
Standard: I, for one, welcome our new rhinoceros overlords
Modern: Pod's dead, Bob's back.
Legacy: Lands, Deathblade, Death and Taxes, Elves, MUD
Retired Legacy: Merfolk, Goblins, Jund, Delver, Reanimator
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
I'm not sure i understand... Devotion counts the colored mana symbols on all permanents, not just creatures.
Wall of Frost, Kiora's Follower, Phenax, on board.
Play Duskmantle Guildmage, activate first ability.
Tap Kiora's Follower, get U for Triton Tactics
Tap Wall of Frost, deal 7 damage.
Triton Tactics on Kiora's Follower and Wall of Frost.
Tap Wall of Frost, deal 10 damage.
Untap Wall of Frost with Kiora's Follower ability.
Tap Wall of Frost, deal 10 damage.
If for some reason they're still alive, tap with Phenax for another 7 damage.
A total of 34 damage.
To be fair, that deck was stupidly good
Standard:
GU Prophet
Legacy:
WBU Shared Fate
Trades
That said, could phenax find its way into a decent standard deck? If so, what would the deck look like?
To answer these questions, we should consider what cards play well with phenax. It's quite obvious that phenax likes high toughness creatures. High toughness creatures tend to be great blockers. So what likes blockers? Planeswalkers. I believe that if Phenax finds its way into a deck, it will be a kind of super-friends deck in which phenax is one of many potential win cons. For reliabilities sake, as few of these planeswalkers as possible should win via mill. The question then becomes, what planes walkers will we get in m15 and next years set that could be run in UBx. So far, the only decent ones I know of is kiora.
- Manite
Yea I don't think you quite got it. The usual way to turn on your God is having creatures. That was what I was referring to.
Phenax could have gotten Erebos' traits whereby he benefits you and constraints your opponents. That was my bone of contention. He doesn't have to benefit creatures.
What's more, Dimir likes working alone, at most a compact team. Spilling out creatures just to mill seems un-Dimir-ish.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
Dimir defines UB flavor traits mostly in Ravnica only; it is not the be-all-end-all of flavor for the color. In game parlance, it is merely a descriptor applied to the color pairing and really implies no specific game play strategy.
Seriously, people need to realize that thinking about color pairing in terms of Ravnica flavor is needlessly and pointlessly constricting.
On the plus side, it works well with blockers.
On the down side, mill probably wants to be killing/wiping a lot of the board anyway... so that tends to hinder your own ability to have the creatures to use this effect with.
I can see how it is supposed to fit in a hypothetical UB mill with a lot of defensive creatures. I just don't know how good I feel said deck would be and, as such, how useful this card is. I don't even feel it fits the other Gods' general feel of "May as well play 1 or 2 if I'm in these colors anyway".
I imagine this is indisputably going to be considered the weakest and worst of the allied colored Gods, and maybe worst of the whole God cycle so far.
EDIT: There is ONE interaction I didn't consider... in the form of this being a non-attacking trigger for Inspired. So far in UB that includes two 3-cost 2/2 Bird/Zombie token makers, a blue card that puts permanents into play as Enchantments, and black's Bob wannabe. I'm not sure I'm fond I feel about playing passive creatures with mediocre stats just to interact with this. Anyway, that's a thing.
-Blue Cosmos
I'm not mad just disappointed :/
Works amazingly with Duskmantle Guildmage
Does disgusting things with Pain Seer
Consuming Abberation + Triton Tactics Made me throw up (especially since i got it with a Duskmantle Guildmage out on the field.)
This guy has so much support it aint funny
here's my list
4 Doorkeeper
3 Omenspeaker
4 Wall of Frost
2 Consuming Abberation
2 Duskmantle Guildmage
3 Pain Seer
2 Hero's Downfall
2 Read the Bones
3 Thoughtseize
2 Mind Grind
3 Psychic Strike
2 Triton Tactics
3 Dimir Guildgate
4 Swamp
9 Island
4 Watery Grave
4 Temple of Deceit
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1 Jace, Memory Adept
CHECK OUT MY TRIBAL CUSTOM SET KREVAN
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/creativity/custom-card-creation/custom-set-creation-and/530273-krevan-the-first-set-in-a-tribal-block
You go to before combat step with Desecration Demon: "Would you like to respond?"
They say yes. In response, you tap him down to Phenax, they Mill 6, you still get the counter?
They say no, you get to attack.
Also, Gary is sitting around waiting to block, you can tap him after for 4 mill.
But it's against the core of UB gameplay to play too many creatures. UB is not fast enough to win the game before a sweeper and it's creature quality is not high enough to shrug off a sweeper. All the advantages of UB lies in disruptive spells.
Phenax is a good but 100% unsupported card. People are annoyed because even for EDH, UB players are longing for another angle to build a deck but all they get is mill after mill card.
UB was my favorite two color combination for a long, long time. But it has been ignored over and over and over again to a point I barely read the UB spoils because I already know they will all suck. I mean, look at what UB gets, look at Rev/Supreme Verdict. It's obvious certain colors are getting all the toys - and it's only natural that people gets upset.
BGU Control
R Aggro
Standard - For Fun
BG Auras
Wow.... That's actually something I hadn't thought of
I agree bro. I love UB. But nope. Wizards doesn't like it
For example, if someone sacrifices a creature to Desecration Demon, can you cast Triton Tactics to untap and still attack?
If so, Turn 5/6 Phenax mill could be had in Mono-Black splash Blue
T3 Underworld connection
T4 Desecration Demon
T5 Phenax, Mill Demon for 6
T6 Black devotion +1,
Mill Demon for 7, Phenax for 7,
Triton Tactics,
Mill Demon for 10, Phenax for 10
That is 40 cards milled plus the minimum of 12 cards drawn If you have another creature live or convince opponent to put a counter on Demon, easily get another 3-7 mill. Even Mutavaults can turn into Mill 2 (2 mana)
Par for the course... lol
Yeah this is basically what happens with amazing cards like Phenax At first I was laughing because every speculation thing I had read was "oh this time it will be something other than mill!" and alas it was mill, however this mill is actually amazing Can't wait to play with this guy. I don't think anyone can argue against the idea of him having a lot of different potential decks to be built around him at least. Maybe not even amazing decks but just decent ones that might come out of the blue and win at a real tourney.
http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/74069381325/a-few-friends-of-mine-were-disappointed-that-phenax-had
A comic about the world's most addictive game, Magic: The Gathering.
It doesn't work. If you let them sacrifice a creature the ability finishes resolving and your demon taps. You cannot respond.
At least we know that he acknowledges the fact that many UB cards have just been something with mill and therefore didnt make much of an impact.