Hit high prices initially, but came down rather quickly. You're correct he is better than the current Ajani, and I won't deny that he is good for a format with 1/1s and 2/2s, but overall I think the hype from the first week of play is a bit much.
If he is able to repeat for the next few weeks I will say ok maybe I was wrong. I just honestly can't see Jace being the powerhouse people are building him up to be. His +1 is good against weenie aggro and his - is mediocre at best for 4.
Wow, you really need to explain how his -2 is mediocre at best, even for 4.
Worst case scenario, you get the best card out of 3 and still have a Jace in play.
Jace Beleren saw play as a control engine in standard and he did not even had a relevant ability against aggro.
Jace 4.0 combines anti aggro ability and draw + card selection for 1 more mana.
1. People love Jace, a lot.
2. It's really good. An easy four-of in its respective archetype(s). Might not be "the deck" but still highly competitive.
3. The set was released last week.
Liliana of the Veil reached $60 each after Innistrad's release. Crazy? Yes, but people will pay up if they think they've found the next best thing. That said Jace will see tons of standard play, tons, so the price tag might not be THAT far off. I'd say $35ish when it settles.
Thanks. This is what I was thinking, but just making sure. How many Planeswalkers have really been the next best thing though? Jace, the Mind Sculptor for sure and who else? Elspeth 1.0? Every other Planeswalker seems to float around $7-15 after rotation.
That is not drawing like a Brainstorm. Revealing cards and letting the opponent choose is the reverse of a Brainstorm. Maybe it is more like an opponent Brainstorm, but even then you can't put cards from your hand back.
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Legendary Creature – Human Designer (MR)
Brian Tinsman, Set Designer can only be cast during the third set of a block.
When Brian Tinsman, Set Designer enters the battlefield, ignore all flavor and mechanics of the first two sets in the block. "Ok so what do we have here... gothic horror? Scrap it. Expand the Devine Vs. Demonic duel deck to 244 cards and print it!"
2/2
I am glad that someone made this thread. I was just about to when I saw it. I didn't understand how good the new Jace was, but reading through this thread has enlightened me. I figured his second ability was what made him so good, but I just couldn't look past that first ability. It seems so underwhelming to me. Even now it still does, for that matter.
I don't think a lot of players really understood how good he was until they tested him a lot. My group told me I shouldn't even play him. I respect their input, but I think all walkers that are questionably good should be tested. They've all changed their mind saying that not only is he solid but he's the reason to play blue in T2.
The minus ability is very good and the plus ability is actually decent. I think he's the weakest Jace but that isn't saying much.
Whoops, this post was in reference to his power level in cube.
Underwhelming first ability at first glance, underwhelming ultimate...
...but who cares because it's got 3-card Fact or Fiction.
Having a + ability that is 'only' a -1/-0 to all your opponents in a format that might just involve a lot of tokens is a fair tradeoff to having 3-card Fact or Fiction in your game.
EDIT: Also having blue mana in the mana cost is also an advantage.
Ehhh I don't know why but he screams "weak" to me.
Plus I would rather see other blue walkers than Old-Hat-Jace like what they did by bringing in Tamiyo.
The only reason I can see myself using the Architect is to be a body shield for Tamiyo to get her ultimate.
Liliana of the Veil was 60 bucks when Innistrad released. Good planeswalkers skyrocket in value when the set is initially released; thing is Jace Architect of Thought is actually great so you should not expect him to go down in price for a long time.
there is no such thing as a weak Jace. Even Jace, Memory Adept is a strong planeswalker. (If anyone wants to talk weak planeswalkers, we can discuss the overwhelming success of mono-red planeswalkers).
Architect of Thought is even better because he is a single Fact or Fiction when you know he's going to die. He's otherwise a double Fact or Fiction for the most part in Standard right now.
And when people realize that his ultimate hits the Jace's controller's deck too, I suspect people will find new ways to abuse Jace altogether.
Jace then fetches himself from YOUR library again, since the original Jace is GONE as the cost has been paid, then fetch ANOTHER planeswalker from THE OPPONENT'S library, OR their bomb.
He resets himself to 4 loyalty, can use ANOTHER ability, and ANOTHER planeswalkers ability in one turn with his ultimate.
Jace then fetches himself from YOUR library again, since the original Jace is GONE as the cost has been paid, then fetch ANOTHER planeswalker from THE OPPONENT'S library, OR their bomb.
He resets himself to 4 loyalty, can use ANOTHER ability, and ANOTHER planeswalkers ability in one turn with his ultimate.
50+ dollars? If you play blue, makes sense.
No it doesnt. This is a 20 dollar planeswalker. It has applications. People will not start playing blue because of this, but if they are, they will likely play some number of copies.
Liliana of the Veil was much better than this one is.
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Regarding Stoneforge Mystic
Quote from oranges2 »
This guy, would either eat up several turns worth of mana to get a slow permanent that relies on your already have some board presence (after wasting said mana), or dies without generating any advantage.
It's worth a lot of money because he.is.good. He's not going to go down. He kills aggro dead, he draws you tons of cards, and in the rare chance you get to his ultimate he replaces himself and gets a fatty for you.
Even if his 2nd ability is a mini-FoF, the fact that he can't use it indefinitely unlike Jace the Wallet Sculptor means that I doubt we'll see this Jace hit that absurd level (80+ for a jace).
I do think he's worth at least 20-30, and any higher than that will be due to meta-game shifts.
In modern with Doubling Season in play you play Jace, pop him and get another Jace + bomb from your opponent's deck, pop your new Jace, rinse repeat. Depending on what your opponent is playing it is very possible that you'll just win that turn.
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Look at my name...what did you expect?
Thank you WOTC for introducing the Modern format, a format where all the whiners can enjoy a level playing field and where they can play with none of the best cards of all time!
It's not a bad walker, but people are overestimating it a lot.
If anyone is overestimating it, they haven't actually played him. There was not a single game I played him this weekend that I did not win. You -2 when you need an answer - and you almost ALWAYS get an answer - and then you +1 when your opponent is sitting on their thumbs because they're afraid you have counter magic - which they probably KNOW you do since you just -2-ed for it the previous turn.
And in the right deck - it is excruciating for your opponent to have to decide what you're after. Do you have a Terminus in hand and are looking for the mana to back it up with counter magic? Are you looking for the counter magic? Dividing up those three cards is hard! I love the guy - he's not broken by any measure - but he's a lot more solid Jace than we've ever seen since Beleren.
I had one game where I ultimate him against a Green/White midrange and played their own Revenge of the Hunted on my Snapcaster to win the game with Snappy swinging for 8.
Quite possibly the best card in standard and should hold over $25 for as long as he's in the rotation IMO.
You pay the extra now because there are fewer in circulation. Waiting for the price to drop is false economy as you could be out there winning more than the difference in boosters by paying it now. Of course understandably not everyone wants to pay $200 for four pieces of cardboard, but I think serious players will be trading for Jace and winning more stuff, while those ditching him are missing a chance to own stronger decks.
If anyone is overestimating it, they haven't actually played him. There was not a single game I played him this weekend that I did not win. You -2 when you need an answer - and you almost ALWAYS get an answer - and then you +1 when your opponent is sitting on their thumbs because they're afraid you have counter magic - which they probably KNOW you do since you just -2-ed for it the previous turn.
And in the right deck - it is excruciating for your opponent to have to decide what you're after. Do you have a Terminus in hand and are looking for the mana to back it up with counter magic? Are you looking for the counter magic? Dividing up those three cards is hard! I love the guy - he's not broken by any measure - but he's a lot more solid Jace than we've ever seen since Beleren.
I had one game where I ultimate him against a Green/White midrange and played their own Revenge of the Hunted on my Snapcaster to win the game with Snappy swinging for 8.
You summed my thoughts exactly
Jace, Architect Of Thought is just very powerful, the card advantage he gives you is great, he dulls aggro very well, paired with any other Planeswalker he can just take over the game, and his ultimate can just win you the game
While not as powerful as JTMS, he feels like Tezzeret, Agent Of Bolas to me (they are very different, but when I resolve them I get the same feeling that I just took control of the match), his -2 is like Tezz's +1, his +1 protects himself although it isn't comparable to Tezz's -1, both of their ultimate's can just end the game however
I would not be surprised if he found a home in Modern
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I don't think a lot of players really understood how good he was until they tested him a lot. My group told me I shouldn't even play him. I respect their input, but I think all walkers that are questionably good should be tested. They've all changed their mind saying that not only is he solid but he's the reason to play blue in T2.
The minus ability is very good and the plus ability is actually decent. I think he's the weakest Jace but that isn't saying much.
He is only weaker than the best Jace. I would rather play this card than belern, all belern does is draw cards period. I mean his +2 ability can actually help the opponent. I swear it seems like people are commenting on this card without even playing against it or with it.
Nearly ever pro on the planet has proclaimed that this is one of the best planewalkers in standard and has potential in Modern but yet people still choose to disbelieve it.
BTW: This card is good against control and aggro because against control they will have a lot of trouble reducing his loyalty which gives you free card quality and advantage over time.
if they are afraid of countermagic they didn't notice what happened to standard.
And no you don't always find an answer. when you give a very sub par example of an answer drawn by this ( a miracle ), and an occasional answer (a shock variant), it's just harder to swallow your argument.
He is a good card but not a 20+ card.
lol. I don't think you've played with him or against him. That's all I'm saying. In the past 19 hours I have only lost a game where I kept a bad draw. That's over the course of 11 rounds and countless practice games overnight between the two events.
If you're talking about the uncounterable stuff... Sure, people are landing loxodons and abrupt decays... But loxodons aren't indestructible and abrupt decays are not killing Jace4.... The biggest threat I've faced is the speed of zombies or Thragtusk, and I have answers for both after play testing last night - neither were a concern after side boarding.
Jace4 is card advantage and serious filtering - I'm not drawing lands I dont need in the mid-game because they are all going to the bottom of the deck. He is not going to get any cheaper after people see the winning deck lists from states this weekend.
Wow, you really need to explain how his -2 is mediocre at best, even for 4.
Worst case scenario, you get the best card out of 3 and still have a Jace in play.
Jace Beleren saw play as a control engine in standard and he did not even had a relevant ability against aggro.
Jace 4.0 combines anti aggro ability and draw + card selection for 1 more mana.
Imo that's worth what you pay for.
Thanks. This is what I was thinking, but just making sure. How many Planeswalkers have really been the next best thing though? Jace, the Mind Sculptor for sure and who else? Elspeth 1.0? Every other Planeswalker seems to float around $7-15 after rotation.
back in my day we just called it fact or fiction.
Legendary Creature – Human Designer (MR)
Brian Tinsman, Set Designer can only be cast during the third set of a block.
When Brian Tinsman, Set Designer enters the battlefield, ignore all flavor and mechanics of the first two sets in the block.
"Ok so what do we have here... gothic horror? Scrap it. Expand the Devine Vs. Demonic duel deck to 244 cards and print it!"
2/2
The minus ability is very good and the plus ability is actually decent. I think he's the weakest Jace but that isn't saying much.
Whoops, this post was in reference to his power level in cube.
...but who cares because it's got 3-card Fact or Fiction.
Having a + ability that is 'only' a -1/-0 to all your opponents in a format that might just involve a lot of tokens is a fair tradeoff to having 3-card Fact or Fiction in your game.
EDIT: Also having blue mana in the mana cost is also an advantage.
Plus I would rather see other blue walkers than Old-Hat-Jace like what they did by bringing in Tamiyo.
The only reason I can see myself using the Architect is to be a body shield for Tamiyo to get her ultimate.
Liliana of the Veil was 60 bucks when Innistrad released. Good planeswalkers skyrocket in value when the set is initially released; thing is Jace Architect of Thought is actually great so you should not expect him to go down in price for a long time.
Only True Blue players will understand and accept that.
........................
He will go down.
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there is no such thing as a weak Jace. Even Jace, Memory Adept is a strong planeswalker. (If anyone wants to talk weak planeswalkers, we can discuss the overwhelming success of mono-red planeswalkers).
Architect of Thought is even better because he is a single Fact or Fiction when you know he's going to die. He's otherwise a double Fact or Fiction for the most part in Standard right now.
And when people realize that his ultimate hits the Jace's controller's deck too, I suspect people will find new ways to abuse Jace altogether.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
~~~~~
Jace uses his ultimate.
Jace dies as a result.
Jace then fetches himself from YOUR library again, since the original Jace is GONE as the cost has been paid, then fetch ANOTHER planeswalker from THE OPPONENT'S library, OR their bomb.
He resets himself to 4 loyalty, can use ANOTHER ability, and ANOTHER planeswalkers ability in one turn with his ultimate.
50+ dollars? If you play blue, makes sense.
No it doesnt. This is a 20 dollar planeswalker. It has applications. People will not start playing blue because of this, but if they are, they will likely play some number of copies.
Liliana of the Veil was much better than this one is.
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Regarding Stoneforge Mystic
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I do think he's worth at least 20-30, and any higher than that will be due to meta-game shifts.
Thank you WOTC for introducing the Modern format, a format where all the whiners can enjoy a level playing field and where they can play with none of the best cards of all time!
If anyone is overestimating it, they haven't actually played him. There was not a single game I played him this weekend that I did not win. You -2 when you need an answer - and you almost ALWAYS get an answer - and then you +1 when your opponent is sitting on their thumbs because they're afraid you have counter magic - which they probably KNOW you do since you just -2-ed for it the previous turn.
And in the right deck - it is excruciating for your opponent to have to decide what you're after. Do you have a Terminus in hand and are looking for the mana to back it up with counter magic? Are you looking for the counter magic? Dividing up those three cards is hard! I love the guy - he's not broken by any measure - but he's a lot more solid Jace than we've ever seen since Beleren.
I had one game where I ultimate him against a Green/White midrange and played their own Revenge of the Hunted on my Snapcaster to win the game with Snappy swinging for 8.
You pay the extra now because there are fewer in circulation. Waiting for the price to drop is false economy as you could be out there winning more than the difference in boosters by paying it now. Of course understandably not everyone wants to pay $200 for four pieces of cardboard, but I think serious players will be trading for Jace and winning more stuff, while those ditching him are missing a chance to own stronger decks.
Blue card? Check.
Price be high.
You summed my thoughts exactly
Jace, Architect Of Thought is just very powerful, the card advantage he gives you is great, he dulls aggro very well, paired with any other Planeswalker he can just take over the game, and his ultimate can just win you the game
While not as powerful as JTMS, he feels like Tezzeret, Agent Of Bolas to me (they are very different, but when I resolve them I get the same feeling that I just took control of the match), his -2 is like Tezz's +1, his +1 protects himself although it isn't comparable to Tezz's -1, both of their ultimate's can just end the game however
I would not be surprised if he found a home in Modern
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MTGO: U Tron, BRG Living End, B Infect
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He is only weaker than the best Jace. I would rather play this card than belern, all belern does is draw cards period. I mean his +2 ability can actually help the opponent. I swear it seems like people are commenting on this card without even playing against it or with it.
Nearly ever pro on the planet has proclaimed that this is one of the best planewalkers in standard and has potential in Modern but yet people still choose to disbelieve it.
Here is the proper order of best to worst Jace.
BTW: This card is good against control and aggro because against control they will have a lot of trouble reducing his loyalty which gives you free card quality and advantage over time.
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If you're talking about the uncounterable stuff... Sure, people are landing loxodons and abrupt decays... But loxodons aren't indestructible and abrupt decays are not killing Jace4.... The biggest threat I've faced is the speed of zombies or Thragtusk, and I have answers for both after play testing last night - neither were a concern after side boarding.
Jace4 is card advantage and serious filtering - I'm not drawing lands I dont need in the mid-game because they are all going to the bottom of the deck. He is not going to get any cheaper after people see the winning deck lists from states this weekend.