Well, i've told this on another post but i believe that the best way to play an Eldrazi deck by now is by cheating it with Fist of Suns, and then, i've been thinking on how to make an deck to work with it.
I've been contemplating a deck like this as well, seems to have a lot of potential, especially for multiplayer. (Which is my preference.)
I agree with the (nameless one) that a strategy based on Prismatic Omen seems to have more merits. In addition, I would run 4 Crystal Quarry instead of a whole slew of non-basics so the mana base is more reliable and less slow. That would enable the deck to actually defend itself reliably in the first few turns so you can actually get it all online.
I can see this deck going green/white or green/blue at it's core, while building up to the fist with the omen or the quarry. From there, proceed with Eldrazi or other big spells for the win.
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If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
I have raved about Fist of Suns + Eldrazi for a while now, and I am happy to see that people are coming to the same conclusions. This is an extremely powerful combo, and I think that the OP's list is going in the right direction.
I do, however, have some problems with it.
1) Lots of secondary/tertiary win conditions
Emrakul can't be countered. The vast, vast majority of decks in Legacy run FoW, with many more running Daze. Why bother with Maelstrom/Iona/Nicol Bolas/etc, all of which are easily countered, when you can just run more tutor effects to find Emrakul? I agree that some alternate cards might be warranted (Maybe a lone Iona or even Reiver Demon for board-wiping), but the emphasis should be on Emrakul/Fist.
2) No disruption
Combo decks that don't have disruption are bad. Every combo deck worth naming (Flash Hulk/Reanimator/Trix/ANT/Cephalid Breakfast/etc.) has run playsets of FoW/Duress/Pact of Negation/Daze/etc. To do otherwise is asking for autolosses against various decks. In this deck's case, 4 FoW and 4 Duress should be sufficient, although maybe additional disruption could be boarded in (Therapy/Pact/etc.)
3) General lack of power
The initial decklist, and most subsequent comments, have ignored the fact that this deck uses some suboptimal cards. Harmonize? Wrath of God? Brainstorm and Lim-Duls Vault should be the cards of choice, tutor and draw effects to dig for your combo pieces.
Now, in regards to the comments made after the decklist was posted...Prismatic Omen is a sub-optimal card in this deck. It turns a 2 card combo (perfectly attainable) into a 3 card combo. The only reason to run Omen is if Eye of Ugin is also included in the deck. As of now, there are no colorless spells worth paying 7 mana for to tutor up; by the time you have 7 mana, you really need to be swinging with Emrakul. Why include a mana fixer when a deck's mana base can be extremely robust on its own? City of Brass, Tarnished Citadel, Fetchlands, etc. These all make the deck powerful without Omen.
I see some potential on this deck in Extended, in legacy, well, idk if it works. Especially because of Wasteland and, the mono U's favorite SB against multicolored decks: Back to Basics. But, however, there are some ideais of making it a 5C Ramp using basic lands, but i believe that a 5C Ramp would be too much casual.
Run RU Sneak Attack/Control Eldrazi. That deck will be a serious Legacy contender, watch.
I must disagree. While it might make Sneak Attack better than it currently is, it will not make it elevate the archetype to Tier 1 status. Sneak Attack costs 4 mana instead of 3 for Fist. The difference between a turn 1/2 drop and a turn 3/4 drop is substantial in a format with ample countermagic, disruption, and boardable hatred. This is a large strike against Sneak Attack, and a reason why there are basically no Legacy decks that use Sneak Attack.
The second problem involves Emrakul himself. He can't kill the opponent in one turn. Yes, he can wreck a board and probably swing for 15, but then he is going to get shuffled back into the library. This means that Sneak Attack/Emrakul essentially becomes a 3 card combo to win. You need a second creature to finish the job that Emrakul started.
Now, some might argue that this is not a problem. Some might say that Sneak Attack/Emrakul is the next big thing in Legacy. I point these people to this link:
This is a Sneak Attack/Protean Hulk deck from April 2009. The deck's builder(s) tried to use the extremely abusive Hulk kill condition in a Sneak Attack shell. Now, this uses overall the same number of cards that Flash Hulk used in the previous year (maybe a few slots more). Yet, this deck only placed 8th at its event, and no one else tried to replicate the deck's 1 turn kill strategy. Legacy is a wired-community, so to speak. If this deck were amazing, someone would have picked it up and played it later. Yet, this never happened. The bottom line is that Sneak Attack is not the strongest card. It's extremely cool and pretty darn good, but it's not broken. It's not even very powerful. It's just a good effect.
Finally, what does Sneak Attack do that Fist does not?
1. Both give, or effectively give, Emrakul haste.
2. Both Fist and Attack are vulnerable to the same countermagic/discard/removal (FoW, Daze, Thoughtseize, Duress, Grip, etc.)
3. Both take advantage of Emrakul's protection clause.
4. Both force you to have 8 cards in your deck (Playset of Fist/Attack and a playset of Emrakul)
Overall, the cards are eerily similar. The key difference is the mana cost (3 vs 4) and the staying power (Fist lets Emrakul end the game in the following turn, whereas Sneak Attack forces you to have a second finisher). The mana cost is the real deal-breaker for me, because turn 2 is just so much safer than turn 3 in Legacy.
I've been thinking about this combo a fair bit for Extended. Are there any/enough good tutors to support this archetype? To tutor for Emrakul we have Time of Need, but for Fist of Suns the only ones I can find are Fabricate and Transmutecards.
Obliterate: An uncounterable Armageddon + Wrath of God. We could build around it...
The main problem I was having was purely consistency. Sometimes you could get the combo off because you started with a Fist, Emrakul and a Mox in hand. Other times you would have to tutor for both and it would just be too slow. How is Depths/Thopter Combo so consistent, other than the fact that it has two combos in one? Could we adapt the Thopter combo into the Fist deck?
The entire time during the last match when I was color screwed and kept off double white I was thinking "Damnit Jaden, that troll-faced bastard might be right."
would ancient ziggurat work to cast the eldrazi through the fist? i guess i dont see the benefit of having all those vivid lands come in tapped?
edit ahh the mox diamond, whoops.
Ancient Ziggurat would work to cast Emrakul via Fist. However, it does not allow you to cast Fist in the first place. One or two copies could work, though. And you don't actually want the Vivid lands. I would run a manabase similar to this:
...depending on the configuration of the deck. I'm assuming, here, that you are playing several copies of Duress/Thoughtseize main, as well as some number of Worldly Tutor/Time of Need. The Sulfur Vents accelerate you slightly and the Odyssey filters complement Crystal Quarry for supporting Ancient Tomb's colourless mana. They also help with an off-colour Chrome Mox.
The entire time during the last match when I was color screwed and kept off double white I was thinking "Damnit Jaden, that troll-faced bastard might be right."
my initial thought was:
4x Reflecting Pool
4x City of Brass
2x Tarnished Citadel
1x Vivid Meadow
1x Vivid Creek
1x Vivid Marsh
1x Vivid Crag
1x Vivid Grove
3x Tendo Ice Bridge
3x Maelstrom Archangel
2x Emrakul, The Aeon's Torn
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
2x Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
3x Fist of Suns
4x Harmonize
4x Lotus Petal
4x Enlightened Tutor
2x Cruel Ultimatum
1x Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
4x Mox Diamond
3x Wrath of God
This is just a sample list but i've been thinking on something like this.
Any ideas ? suggestions ?
On DeTora's extra land drop on PT:GTC
Also, instead of doing Fist, why not just run Eye of Ugin and Eldrazi Temple? Maybe ditch the whole non-Eldrazi cards and focus on Eldrazi?
But if you really wanna do Fist, I would suggest Prismatic Omen.
Thanks for spiderboy4 of High~Light_Studios for the kick ass avatar.
Thanks for DarkNightCavalier of HotPS for the exceptional signature.
I agree with the (nameless one) that a strategy based on Prismatic Omen seems to have more merits. In addition, I would run 4 Crystal Quarry instead of a whole slew of non-basics so the mana base is more reliable and less slow. That would enable the deck to actually defend itself reliably in the first few turns so you can actually get it all online.
I can see this deck going green/white or green/blue at it's core, while building up to the fist with the omen or the quarry. From there, proceed with Eldrazi or other big spells for the win.
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
@AllSunday - thanks 4 the tips, gonna test it.
On DeTora's extra land drop on PT:GTC
I do, however, have some problems with it.
1) Lots of secondary/tertiary win conditions
Emrakul can't be countered. The vast, vast majority of decks in Legacy run FoW, with many more running Daze. Why bother with Maelstrom/Iona/Nicol Bolas/etc, all of which are easily countered, when you can just run more tutor effects to find Emrakul? I agree that some alternate cards might be warranted (Maybe a lone Iona or even Reiver Demon for board-wiping), but the emphasis should be on Emrakul/Fist.
2) No disruption
Combo decks that don't have disruption are bad. Every combo deck worth naming (Flash Hulk/Reanimator/Trix/ANT/Cephalid Breakfast/etc.) has run playsets of FoW/Duress/Pact of Negation/Daze/etc. To do otherwise is asking for autolosses against various decks. In this deck's case, 4 FoW and 4 Duress should be sufficient, although maybe additional disruption could be boarded in (Therapy/Pact/etc.)
3) General lack of power
The initial decklist, and most subsequent comments, have ignored the fact that this deck uses some suboptimal cards. Harmonize? Wrath of God? Brainstorm and Lim-Duls Vault should be the cards of choice, tutor and draw effects to dig for your combo pieces.
Now, in regards to the comments made after the decklist was posted...Prismatic Omen is a sub-optimal card in this deck. It turns a 2 card combo (perfectly attainable) into a 3 card combo. The only reason to run Omen is if Eye of Ugin is also included in the deck. As of now, there are no colorless spells worth paying 7 mana for to tutor up; by the time you have 7 mana, you really need to be swinging with Emrakul. Why include a mana fixer when a deck's mana base can be extremely robust on its own? City of Brass, Tarnished Citadel, Fetchlands, etc. These all make the deck powerful without Omen.
-ktkenshinx-
On DeTora's extra land drop on PT:GTC
Run RU Sneak Attack/Control Eldrazi. That deck will be a serious Legacy contender, watch.
On DeTora's extra land drop on PT:GTC
I must disagree. While it might make Sneak Attack better than it currently is, it will not make it elevate the archetype to Tier 1 status. Sneak Attack costs 4 mana instead of 3 for Fist. The difference between a turn 1/2 drop and a turn 3/4 drop is substantial in a format with ample countermagic, disruption, and boardable hatred. This is a large strike against Sneak Attack, and a reason why there are basically no Legacy decks that use Sneak Attack.
The second problem involves Emrakul himself. He can't kill the opponent in one turn. Yes, he can wreck a board and probably swing for 15, but then he is going to get shuffled back into the library. This means that Sneak Attack/Emrakul essentially becomes a 3 card combo to win. You need a second creature to finish the job that Emrakul started.
Now, some might argue that this is not a problem. Some might say that Sneak Attack/Emrakul is the next big thing in Legacy. I point these people to this link:
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=25379
This is a Sneak Attack/Protean Hulk deck from April 2009. The deck's builder(s) tried to use the extremely abusive Hulk kill condition in a Sneak Attack shell. Now, this uses overall the same number of cards that Flash Hulk used in the previous year (maybe a few slots more). Yet, this deck only placed 8th at its event, and no one else tried to replicate the deck's 1 turn kill strategy. Legacy is a wired-community, so to speak. If this deck were amazing, someone would have picked it up and played it later. Yet, this never happened. The bottom line is that Sneak Attack is not the strongest card. It's extremely cool and pretty darn good, but it's not broken. It's not even very powerful. It's just a good effect.
Finally, what does Sneak Attack do that Fist does not?
1. Both give, or effectively give, Emrakul haste.
2. Both Fist and Attack are vulnerable to the same countermagic/discard/removal (FoW, Daze, Thoughtseize, Duress, Grip, etc.)
3. Both take advantage of Emrakul's protection clause.
4. Both force you to have 8 cards in your deck (Playset of Fist/Attack and a playset of Emrakul)
Overall, the cards are eerily similar. The key difference is the mana cost (3 vs 4) and the staying power (Fist lets Emrakul end the game in the following turn, whereas Sneak Attack forces you to have a second finisher). The mana cost is the real deal-breaker for me, because turn 2 is just so much safer than turn 3 in Legacy.
-ktkenshinx-
I stumbled upon a few cool interactions:
Iname as One: Seeing as you cast this guy, you get to search up either Myojin of Infinite Rage or Myojin of Night's Reach, stripping your opponent of answers.
Tooth and Nail: Do I really need to explain? Kiki Jiki, Mirror Breaker + Sky Hussar FTW. Iona, Shield of Emeria + Painter's Servant is excellent if you can't use Kiki Jiki for some reason. Or you could be a timmy and play Grozoth + Myojin of Life's Web.:D
Obliterate: An uncounterable Armageddon + Wrath of God. We could build around it...
The main problem I was having was purely consistency. Sometimes you could get the combo off because you started with a Fist, Emrakul and a Mox in hand. Other times you would have to tutor for both and it would just be too slow. How is Depths/Thopter Combo so consistent, other than the fact that it has two combos in one? Could we adapt the Thopter combo into the Fist deck?
Domain Zoo
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Retired decks:
URWBGrixis Teachings (pauper) BWRU
URWB Tainted Vengeance (SOM-INN standard) BWRU
UBR Grixis Vengeance (SOM-INN Standard) RBU
(click for decklist)
Ego Quotes:
edit ahh the mox diamond, whoops.
Ancient Ziggurat would work to cast Emrakul via Fist. However, it does not allow you to cast Fist in the first place. One or two copies could work, though. And you don't actually want the Vivid lands. I would run a manabase similar to this:
4 Crystal Quarry
3 Ancient Tomb
2 Sulfur Vent
2 Sungrass Prairie
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Forbidden Orchard
3 Lotus Petal
...depending on the configuration of the deck. I'm assuming, here, that you are playing several copies of Duress/Thoughtseize main, as well as some number of Worldly Tutor/Time of Need. The Sulfur Vents accelerate you slightly and the Odyssey filters complement Crystal Quarry for supporting Ancient Tomb's colourless mana.
They also help with an off-colour Chrome Mox.EDIT: Forgot about Lotus Petal. Fixed.
Domain Zoo
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Retired decks:
URWBGrixis Teachings (pauper) BWRU
URWB Tainted Vengeance (SOM-INN standard) BWRU
UBR Grixis Vengeance (SOM-INN Standard) RBU
(click for decklist)
Ego Quotes:
On DeTora's extra land drop on PT:GTC