I use Gideon Jura's {0} ability to animate him, then I play Clone, targeting him.
What happens? What is Clone, and what can he do. Does he have loyalty counters? Can he use PW abilities? Does he remain a 6/6 after the end of turn step? Does he have the clause that prevents damage to him?Clone enters play as an unactivated, unanimated Gideon Jura, with 6 Loyalty Counters (however this doesn't really matter.) Then both Gideons will be put into the Graveyard as a state based effect. You never have a chance to use the Clone-Gideon's PW abilities.
Also, now that I think about it, he will inevitably be a PW as well as a creature, and therefore will kill both of them, right? Yes, both are put in the yard.
In that case, what about Sakashima the Imposter? He is essentially Clone without the same name. Is it names that matter or PW types? Would Clone/Sakashima typeline be "Planeswalker Creature - Gideon Soldier" and therefore still kill both itself and the original Gideon? Unfortunately, he enters play as an unactivated unanimated Sakashima the Imposter, a PW with the typeline "Planeswalker - Gideon" and therefore, like Clone, both are deaded.
What if I activate Gideon, then put a +1/+1 counter on him with Experiment Kraj? I had heard that previously, if you used Mycosynth Lattice and March of the Machines to animate a PW, then use Kraj, he would gain the ability to use the PW's abilities, and since Kraj isn't a PW himself he wouldnt be restricted in his use of the Abilities to once per turn. So if he put a counter on Chandra Nalaar, he could suddenly deal infinite damage. Wizards has apparently fixed this little loophole, stating that "PW abilities, regardless of what permanent type have them, can only be used once a turn, at sorcery speed, and only one of a permanent's PW abilities can be used eash turn." Therefore, Kraj will have all 3 abilities, can use one a turn at sorcery speed. He cannot use the {-2} ability right away b/c he has no loyalty to spend. He can activate the other two abilities, one gives him 2 loyalty but does nothing since creatures cannot be attacked, the other would turn him into a 6/6 Soldier with "Prevent all damage to Kraj this turn."
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Commander Decks: WBRQueen Marchesa's Powerful FriendsRBW URArjun, Mindmoil SphinxRU GFreyalise and the ElvesG GROmnath, Ramping to RageRG UBaral, Chef of CounterspellsU
I use Gideon Jura's {0} ability to animate him, then I play Clone, targeting him.
What happens? What is Clone, and what can he do. Does he have loyalty counters? Can he use PW abilities? Does he remain a 6/6 after the end of turn step? Does he have the clause that prevents damage to him?
Copy effects copy only the printed card (and other copy effects affecting that card). So the Clone becomes an unanimated Gideon, and is just a planeswalker.
Also, now that I think about it, he will inevitably be a PW as well as a creature, and therefore will kill both of them, right?
Yes indeedy.
In that case, what about Sakashima the Imposter? He is essentially Clone without the same name. Is it names that matter or PW types?
The planeswalker type, unfortunately. Hence having, say, Ajanis Goldmane and Vengeant out simultaneously annihilates both.
Would Clone/Sakashima typeline be "Planeswalker Creature - Gideon Soldier" and therefore still kill both itself and the original Gideon?
See above. It would not be a creature or a Soldier. But they would indeed spontaneously vanish.
What if I activate Gideon, then put a +1/+1 counter on him with Experiment Kraj? I had heard that previously, if you used Mycosynth Lattice and March of the Machines to animate a PW, then use Kraj, he would gain the ability to use the PW's abilities, and since Kraj isn't a PW himself he wouldnt be restricted in his use of the Abilities to once per turn. So if he put a counter on Chandra Nalaar, he could suddenly deal infinite damage.
The rules on PW abilities were tweaked slightly a few months back to prevent this loophole. The rule now is that any permanent can only use one PW ability per turn. Thus, you couldn't do silly things with Kraj.
However, Kraj would gain all of Gideon's abilities until end of turn, when Gideon stops being a creature (although he would start with 0 loyalty). This opens up a fairly odd case if you then use Kraj's +2 ability. However, since attacking a creature is impossible, and the ability says 'attacks...if able', it would basically have no effect except to give Kraj two loyalty counters.
Also note: counters (and anything that modifies P/T rather than setting it) are always applied after effects that set P/T. So if you put a +1/+1 counter on Gideon, he will still be a 7/7 next time you animate him.
I have a feeling people keep trying to clone a PW to get a second one out, without both dying. From what i've seen on explanations, its that the PW's never lose their "PW" subtype, no matter how hard people try, by making it into an artifact-land-creature. It is still a PW, and WotC is not going to print a card that says "Target permanent loses the Planeswalker subtype until end of turn."
The only way I can see you being able to clone a PW and keep it, is by changing its PW name on the subtype line. Somehow changing Jace Beleren from a "Planeswalkers - Jace" to "Planeswalker - NotJace." TMK, there are no cards that do this?
Question is does he lose type gideon till end of turn because its still planeswalker but doesnt say he keeps gideon as a subtype?
either way my mirrorweave turns into wrath of god in EDH simply target gideon and watch everything because a planewalkers and die.... cept my gideon himself becauses hes now a Planeswalker-Human Solider not planeswalker-Gideon?
I have a feeling people keep trying to clone a PW to get a second one out, without both dying. From what i've seen on explanations, its that the PW's never lose their "PW" subtype, no matter how hard people try, by making it into an artifact-land-creature. It is still a PW, and WotC is not going to print a card that says "Target permanent loses the Planeswalker subtype until end of turn."
The only way I can see you being able to clone a PW and keep it, is by changing its PW name on the subtype line. Somehow changing Jace Beleren from a "Planeswalkers - Jace" to "Planeswalker - NotJace." TMK, there are no cards that do this?
No. Even if there was a card that could change creature subtypes, which there very well may be, there is nothing that can change the Planeswalker subtypes. I do recall some strange combo that can turn a card into simply a blue permanent, but I can't remember what it is.
I use Gideon Jura's {0} ability to animate him, then I play Clone, targeting him.
What happens? What is Clone, and what can he do. Does he have loyalty counters? Can he use PW abilities? Does he remain a 6/6 after the end of turn step? Does he have the clause that prevents damage to him?Clone enters play as an unactivated, unanimated Gideon Jura, with 6 Loyalty Counters (however this doesn't really matter.) Then both Gideons will be put into the Graveyard as a state based effect. You never have a chance to use the Clone-Gideon's PW abilities.
Also, now that I think about it, he will inevitably be a PW as well as a creature, and therefore will kill both of them, right? Yes, both are put in the yard.
In that case, what about Sakashima the Imposter? He is essentially Clone without the same name. Is it names that matter or PW types? Would Clone/Sakashima typeline be "Planeswalker Creature - Gideon Soldier" and therefore still kill both itself and the original Gideon? Unfortunately, he enters play as an unactivated unanimated Sakashima the Imposter, a PW with the typeline "Planeswalker - Gideon" and therefore, like Clone, both are deaded.
What if I activate Gideon, then put a +1/+1 counter on him with Experiment Kraj? I had heard that previously, if you used Mycosynth Lattice and March of the Machines to animate a PW, then use Kraj, he would gain the ability to use the PW's abilities, and since Kraj isn't a PW himself he wouldnt be restricted in his use of the Abilities to once per turn. So if he put a counter on Chandra Nalaar, he could suddenly deal infinite damage. Wizards has apparently fixed this little loophole, stating that "PW abilities, regardless of what permanent type have them, can only be used once a turn, at sorcery speed, and only one of a permanent's PW abilities can be used eash turn." Therefore, Kraj will have all 3 abilities, can use one a turn at sorcery speed. He cannot use the {-2} ability right away b/c he has no loyalty to spend. He can activate the other two abilities, one gives him 2 loyalty but does nothing since creatures cannot be attacked, the other would turn him into a 6/6 Soldier with "Prevent all damage to Kraj this turn."
Commander Decks:
WBRQueen Marchesa's Powerful FriendsRBW
URArjun, Mindmoil SphinxRU
GFreyalise and the ElvesG
GROmnath, Ramping to RageRG
UBaral, Chef of CounterspellsU
Trades
UBRTezzUBR
UMono-Blue-ControlU
RUGRiku of Two ReflectionsRUG
Copy effects copy only the printed card (and other copy effects affecting that card). So the Clone becomes an unanimated Gideon, and is just a planeswalker.
Yes indeedy.
The planeswalker type, unfortunately. Hence having, say, Ajanis Goldmane and Vengeant out simultaneously annihilates both.
See above. It would not be a creature or a Soldier. But they would indeed spontaneously vanish.
The rules on PW abilities were tweaked slightly a few months back to prevent this loophole. The rule now is that any permanent can only use one PW ability per turn. Thus, you couldn't do silly things with Kraj.
However, Kraj would gain all of Gideon's abilities until end of turn, when Gideon stops being a creature (although he would start with 0 loyalty). This opens up a fairly odd case if you then use Kraj's +2 ability. However, since attacking a creature is impossible, and the ability says 'attacks...if able', it would basically have no effect except to give Kraj two loyalty counters.
Also note: counters (and anything that modifies P/T rather than setting it) are always applied after effects that set P/T. So if you put a +1/+1 counter on Gideon, he will still be a 7/7 next time you animate him.
For more info, please go to the FAQ on Gideon.
The only way I can see you being able to clone a PW and keep it, is by changing its PW name on the subtype line. Somehow changing Jace Beleren from a "Planeswalkers - Jace" to "Planeswalker - NotJace." TMK, there are no cards that do this?
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R Daretti R
RG Omnath GR
WRG Modern Burn GRW
WB Modern Tokens BW
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either way my mirrorweave turns into wrath of god in EDH simply target gideon and watch everything because a planewalkers and die.... cept my gideon himself becauses hes now a Planeswalker-Human Solider not planeswalker-Gideon?
When you use his last ability, he is a white permanent that is:
Planeswalker Creature - Human Soldier Gideon
He does not lose any type.
No. Even if there was a card that could change creature subtypes, which there very well may be, there is nothing that can change the Planeswalker subtypes. I do recall some strange combo that can turn a card into simply a blue permanent, but I can't remember what it is.
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Decks:
:symu::symb: Bloodchief Ascension - Modern
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