How exactly is "sacrifice a token" the same as "lose a turn"? There's plenty of ways around the drawback, and really you're not losing anything but a creature in play for a "probably" way bigger one. Like has been already pointed out, for all you know, you could be drawing the same creature next turn anyway or something worse. And there are plenty of creatures you'd like to be able to replay, many times even if it meant pushing you back a card.
Comparing this to Wooly Thoctar isn't really fair either. This is easier to cast, with 2 more toughness (yes that matters a lot), and in a color that typically doesn't get early-game fat like this.
Wooly Thoctar is played mainly in aggro decks and thus the 2 less toughness isn't a drawback as compared to Nullthread Gargantuan's drawback of bouncing a creature to your library especially more evidently so in UG decks where the main proportion of spells are centred around U
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C Standard C
UW Delver Blade UBW Esper Control
S Legacy S URGW Forty Two Control UBR Past in Tendrils
Like has been already pointed out, for all you know, you could be drawing the same creature next turn anyway or something worse.
People using this argument I think are forgetting that they are losing said creature from play in the 1st place to the Nulltread. He puts you behind and for the 3 mana, I'd much rather cast the Lorescale Coatl.
True, it's roughly the equal of "sacrifice a creature".... Would you play a 5/6 for 3 with "when ~ CIP, sacrifice a creature"? I dunno. But there are ways to twist this that you can't do with sacrifice, IMO.
I'd play in a MP game when I have a Grave Pact out.
But seriously, in a duel, like I and others have stated there are other things I'd rather do with my 3 mana than cast this abomination.
You don't really bounce a creature, though. It'd be much better if all you had to do was return a creature you control to its owner's hand because then you could play it on the same turn without having to draw it first.
it would also be damn near too good if that was the cost.
im working on a deck including this card and where ancients tread. im currently playtesting it. I just like the thought of 3 mana for 5 damage every turn.
im working on a deck including this card and where ancients tread. im currently playtesting it. I just like the thought of 3 mana for 5 damage every turn.
Why not build around Woolly Thoctar in that case? It's red, and it doesn't have any drawback.
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Why not build around Woolly Thoctar in that case? It's red, and it doesn't have any drawback.
Because it doesn't put itself back on top of the library when it comes into play, letting you draw it again next turn to trigger it again (or draw a card off a visionary and do it twice in one turn I guess).
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^^
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Because it doesn't put itself back on top of the library when it comes into play, letting you draw it again next turn to trigger it again (or draw a card off a visionary and do it twice in one turn I guess).
exactly the point. Thoctar cant bounce, though I am also running turn to mist, cause the where ancients tread just says when a creature with power 5 or great comes into play. make their cheap removal fail, and deals them 5 damage. I can't wait to get home from work, bust my boxes, and see what else i can do with this deck.
It would be bloody fantastic hitting this off a bloodbraided elf.
(Play bloodbraided elf, cascade into this guy, he comes into play, bounce the elf. Next turn play him again for more cascade!)
It would be bloody fantastic hitting this off a bloodbraided elf.
(Play bloodbraided elf, cascade into this guy, he comes into play, bounce the elf. Next turn play him again for more cascade!)
Problem with that, is the way cascade works, is you play the elf (it hasnt resolved yet) it then triggers the cascade ability and that spell then gets played and resolves before the original spell. So the creature would hit play, and the elf still would not have resolved yet, and it wouldnt be able to bounce the elf back.
Figured I would clear that up (you can find this information on the Alara Reborn FAQ from wotc.)
It is indeed true a thoctar can't bounce because he belongs to a different theme (Aggro), this Gargantuan belongs to a different as well (Combo). Oh well...
I can think of a nice use for Mr. G, bounce the Winged Coatl back, with the Sigil Captain still out, then suprise attack (sorta) w/ the Winged Coatl again.
It's definitely a good card, but I can't think of any deck it'd really fit into. Also, Woolly Thoctar is not much harder to play, only has two less toughness but doesn't have the drawback of losing a creature and a draw. It is really amazing in sealed or draft though.
This is my first post (be nice).
I signed up so I could post new tech I discovered with this guy!
I was originally a big 'hater' of this card for all the reasons mentioned previously ... then I saw it sitting next to one of my reviellarks ... OMG!!!
I added green to my W/U Lark deck with Nulltread Gargantuan, Elvish Visionary, Lorescale Coatl, and Noble Hierarch. The early tests are really impressive. Nulltreading a Reveillark with mulldrifters in the yard and a Lorescale Coatl in play is the Sickest thing I've seen in a while!
Try it out and tell me what you think.
I stuck with 20 lands as I only have 2 spells over 3 mana. The deck uses (and reuses) comes into play effects alongside Nulltread G to gain a ton of life, draw cards and bounce enemy creatures. Lorescale coatl doesn't interact well with Null G but just having him out in a deck that draws like this makes him huge and he is in the right colors. Let me know what you would change and what you'd keep.
What we're doing here is akin to taking the text of Moby Dick, locating specific words therein, rearranging them to create a passage from Fight Club, and concluding from this evidence that Tyler Durden is based on Ahab.
Good feedback, it's tough to cut those two sowers though. Stealing a creature on one turn and then dropping a nulltread to put it on top of your opponents library is a really fun scenario.
Guys.....nest invader turn 2....nulltread gargantuan turn three (send the token)
Problem solved
You can even send the nest invader, keep the token for chump or mana and then replay the invader to get another token if you want. Either way you get to keep a critter in the board rather than lose tempo.
Wooly Thoctar is played mainly in aggro decks and thus the 2 less toughness isn't a drawback as compared to Nullthread Gargantuan's drawback of bouncing a creature to your library especially more evidently so in UG decks where the main proportion of spells are centred around U
C Standard C
UW Delver Blade
UBW Esper Control
S Legacy S
URGW Forty Two Control
UBR Past in Tendrils
C Commander C
UB Sygg, River Cutthroat
People using this argument I think are forgetting that they are losing said creature from play in the 1st place to the Nulltread. He puts you behind and for the 3 mana, I'd much rather cast the Lorescale Coatl.
My MP Decks:
BKorlashB
WGSuperfriendsGW
GRBTorrent of SoulsBRG
UWDeath CannonWU
WUBRG5 Color AllyGRBUW
WUBMaster TransmuterBUW
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I'd play in a MP game when I have a Grave Pact out.
But seriously, in a duel, like I and others have stated there are other things I'd rather do with my 3 mana than cast this abomination.
My MP Decks:
BKorlashB
WGSuperfriendsGW
GRBTorrent of SoulsBRG
UWDeath CannonWU
WUBRG5 Color AllyGRBUW
WUBMaster TransmuterBUW
it would also be damn near too good if that was the cost.
Why not build around Woolly Thoctar in that case? It's red, and it doesn't have any drawback.
David Ochoa: "Mono-bacon!..."
Because it doesn't put itself back on top of the library when it comes into play, letting you draw it again next turn to trigger it again (or draw a card off a visionary and do it twice in one turn I guess).
MTGO Writer and Epic Time-Waster.
If you have questions about MTGO PM me, I'm all up ons, as it were.
Check out my articles on http://puremtgo.com/ I'm the nerd you see there... wait, not that one. Nope, not that one either... yeah. That one.
exactly the point. Thoctar cant bounce, though I am also running turn to mist, cause the where ancients tread just says when a creature with power 5 or great comes into play. make their cheap removal fail, and deals them 5 damage. I can't wait to get home from work, bust my boxes, and see what else i can do with this deck.
(Play bloodbraided elf, cascade into this guy, he comes into play, bounce the elf. Next turn play him again for more cascade!)
Problem with that, is the way cascade works, is you play the elf (it hasnt resolved yet) it then triggers the cascade ability and that spell then gets played and resolves before the original spell. So the creature would hit play, and the elf still would not have resolved yet, and it wouldnt be able to bounce the elf back.
Figured I would clear that up (you can find this information on the Alara Reborn FAQ from wotc.)
I can think of a nice use for Mr. G, bounce the Winged Coatl back, with the Sigil Captain still out, then suprise attack (sorta) w/ the Winged Coatl again.
9th place Maryland 2009's
I signed up so I could post new tech I discovered with this guy!
I was originally a big 'hater' of this card for all the reasons mentioned previously ... then I saw it sitting next to one of my reviellarks ... OMG!!!
I added green to my W/U Lark deck with Nulltread Gargantuan, Elvish Visionary, Lorescale Coatl, and Noble Hierarch. The early tests are really impressive. Nulltreading a Reveillark with mulldrifters in the yard and a Lorescale Coatl in play is the Sickest thing I've seen in a while!
Try it out and tell me what you think.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=385729
4 Lorescale Coatl
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Essence Warden
4 Treefolk Harbinger
3 Mulldrifter
3 Eternal Witness
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Sower of Temptation
4 Brainstorm
2 Rhystic Study
2 Equilibrium
2 Jace Beleren
Lands
4 Seaside Citadel
4 Breeding Pool
4 Yavimaya Coast
4 Flooded Grove
2 Faerie Conclave
2 Forest
I stuck with 20 lands as I only have 2 spells over 3 mana. The deck uses (and reuses) comes into play effects alongside Nulltread G to gain a ton of life, draw cards and bounce enemy creatures. Lorescale coatl doesn't interact well with Null G but just having him out in a deck that draws like this makes him huge and he is in the right colors. Let me know what you would change and what you'd keep.
Guildmaster Jarad
Good feedback, it's tough to cut those two sowers though. Stealing a creature on one turn and then dropping a nulltread to put it on top of your opponents library is a really fun scenario.
Problem solved
You can even send the nest invader, keep the token for chump or mana and then replay the invader to get another token if you want. Either way you get to keep a critter in the board rather than lose tempo.
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝