It's not fair to comment on the set based on the cards we have so far. WotC did not intend to have every card name from Conflux revealed so early on. Doing so allowed us to catch all the reprints in an out of context way if it was rolled out in dribs and drabs like normal, the conversation would not have been directed towards reprints like it has been.
Reprints are a staple on set design, and we shouldn't be too upset or surprised. If anything, I think the cards they've chosen to reprint in Conflux all seem to be a great fit. They weren't just stuck in to fill a slot - they have a relevance. Also, Domain is a great key ability to bring back in a 3 color focused block - especially if they include Barry's land, which will help you get domain of four in a three color deck.
#2 – We Can Find the Most Efficient Version. While Magic has significant design space, its simple design space is actually quite small. There are a limited number of basic things cards can do. Fifteen years in, odds are we've found most of them (but not all—and finding those gems is very thrilling for a designer). This means when we're trying to find a card to fit into a set, odds are that they cleanest, simplest, most direct version has already been done. Sometimes that's exactly what we want to use. This isn't to say that tweaks can't often fill this role, but part of making Magic stand up to the test of time is the willingness to pluck cards from throughout time to build it.
Gotta give RnD some credit, guys. 15 years of innovating and they're bound to run into some creativity slumps every now and then. Cut them some slack, wait for the rest of the set, wait for new cards in the future and continue playing the game for as long as it's still fun.
Also from the article:
#5 – Conservation of Design Space. Why not make a new card whenever possible? Because new cards come with a cost. Design space is finite. The faster we chew through new content, the less that remains. There are not an endless numbers of simple tweaks. Sometimes rather than reinvent the wheel, we just use the wheel.
Been playing this game for a decade at least, and it still surprises me how RnD can still come out with unique mechanics and card designs.
Something to think about?
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i dont mind all of this reprints, if they want to give the game an invasion flavour i would be more than happy. The block's i had the most fun were Urza's Saga, Invasion, Tempest and Ravnica in that particular order, i dont think anyone would be upset if we see an enchantment printed as Fires of Alara giving haste to all your creatures on Alara Reborn, nor a Rhox Cloak ^^
i dont mind all of this reprints, if they want to give the game an invasion flavour i would be more than happy. The block's i had the most fun were Urza's Saga, Invasion, Tempest and Ravnica in that particular order, i dont think anyone would be upset if we see an enchantment printed as Fires of Alara giving haste to all your creatures on Alara Reborn, nor a Rhox Cloak ^^
So true buddy.
Very good points too.
As for reprints go, they don't reprint absolute garbage. Well the vanilla bears were yucky, however the protection bears are so cool too. Unsummon is grand as well. And I have always loved Domain.
To be honest? I only have one problem with reprints. Everytime I read that a set will have reprints I rush to see which cards were reprinted only to get disappointed every single time.
I understand you can't print Counterspell again or for awhile... I understand Winter Orb is probably too powerful in Standard as well as Armageddon... but can I at least get Sylvan Library? Maybe just a functional reprint? In fact? It can cost 3 instead of 2. I want a lot of the very old cards ack into Standard. I started on Invasion Block and all these cards kinda disappeared after the set... Seeing them back takes me back to my Casual Days of yore.
Being a competitive player now, I realize the Pro-Bears are stronger than I originally thought. Oh well, I still want to see some of the older cards.... And when are they going to bring back Ensanaring Bridge?!
Most of the cards being reprinted haven't been reprinted/functionally duplicated in 9+ years, the only exception to this being Unsummon.
9 years is a LONG time and, to date, none of these cards have been remade during that 9 year period- if anything, it's more surprising it's taken Wizards to bring these cards back than to say they're mean and not coming to my birthday for reprinting them at all. Particularly cards like Worldly Council, Might of Alara and the Pro-Bears, which were all tournament staples to some degree while they were legal. (HOW MANY OF YOU REMEMBER YAVIMAYA BARBARIAN BEING THE LAST MAN STANDING AGAINST A RAMPAGING PSYCHATOG? HOLY CRAP!)
The "functions the same or similarly" cards are, guess what, new cards. Icy Manipulator never had White in its cost and Disrupting Scepter was never only really playable in Mono-Black decks. Swords to Plowshares was never the best card to see in your all-out aggro deck. I also don't remember Man-o-War being functional with Riptide Lab or bouncing an ultimate-ready Chandra. I always had to pay mana for my Fellowar Stone.
10 reprint or near reprints in a small set is, let's not mix words, a lot. 6% of a spoiled set, still leaving room for other functionally identical reprints, is at least sizable when you're cracking packs looking for cool, new and innovative cards. However, to reiterate, these cards haven't been reprinted for some time and, on the back of Lorwyn, some of the new creature types may even be relevant with the inclusion of the Pro-Bears.
Are there a lot of reprints? Considering the set's small size, yes. Is it too many for the set's good? All things considered, no.
I still haven't quite figured out the reprint complaint yet. In Futuresight, we had tons of innovation, so much that the heads of noobs exploded from the stress. People still complained, though. Now, we're getting a few simple, old cards that fit well into the set and we have complaints that Wizards can't do anything new.
Most of the cards being reprinted haven't been reprinted/functionally duplicated in 9+ years, the only exception to this being Unsummon.
9 years is a LONG time and, to date, none of these cards have been remade during that 9 year period- if anything, it's more surprising it's taken Wizards to bring these cards back than to say they're mean and not coming to my birthday for reprinting them at all. Particularly cards like Worldly Council, Might of Alara and the Pro-Bears, which were all tournament staples to some degree while they were legal. (HOW MANY OF YOU REMEMBER YAVIMAYA BARBARIAN BEING THE LAST MAN STANDING AGAINST A RAMPAGING PSYCHATOG? HOLY CRAP!)
The "functions the same or similarly" cards are, guess what, new cards. Icy Manipulator never had White in its cost and Disrupting Scepter was never only really playable in Mono-Black decks. Swords to Plowshares was never the best card to see in your all-out aggro deck. I also don't remember Man-o-War being functional with Riptide Lab or bouncing an ultimate-ready Chandra. I always had to pay mana for my Fellowar Stone.
10 reprint or near reprints in a small set is, let's not mix words, a lot. 6% of a spoiled set, still leaving room for other functionally identical reprints, is at least sizable when you're cracking packs looking for cool, new and innovative cards. However, to reiterate, these cards haven't been reprinted for some time and, on the back of Lorwyn, some of the new creature types may even be relevant with the inclusion of the Pro-Bears.
Are there a lot of reprints? Considering the set's small size, yes. Is it too many for the set's good? All things considered, no.
AMEN!!! So far the reprints/near reprints have all seem very balanced and well placed in this set. The Pro bears are going to be really good for limited and probably even good for block. The scepters are all well designed and seem more balanced than their colorless counterparts. I just dont understand why everyone seems so upset when R&D seems to have done an elegant job building this set so far.
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I like seeing reprints because it brings some familiarity back to Type 2. It's better than the alternative, in which they print sub-standard variants of good cards.
AMEN!!! So far the reprints/near reprints have all seem very balanced and well placed in this set. The Pro bears are going to be really good for limited and probably even good for block. The scepters are all well designed and seem more balanced than their colorless counterparts. I just dont understand why everyone seems so upset when R&D seems to have done an elegant job building this set so far.
Here's the problem with reprints as I see it, only speaking for myself. When I speak of reprints, I refer to a strict reprint of the card like naturalize. Not referring to stuff like Exotic Orchard or Path to Exile. New takes on old cards are ok and not what I am discussing.
Let's look at Stone rain as my 1st example. I think this card was necessary at one time, but it went out of fashion and people HATED seeing this in their packs after some time. I don't remember exactly when, but I do remember there being a huge stink about it at one point(IIRC). It's been printed more than any other card outside of the basic land. That's 15 times in normal sets, 18 if you count portal, ect.
Unsummon has been in every core besides 9th. For those that have been around for most of those sets, this card is not that important to warrant a constant reprint. Is it good for a new player to see, understand and use? Sure-but required reading material? Does it matter now that Wotc has stated that they know new players buy and consume mostly the expert sets?
Now look at the last example, Shatter. Printed 13 times with Mirrodin being the most succesful outing as you all recall. However, this one didn't quite make it to 10th. Interestingly enough, Time Spiral block gave shatter 2 little brothers. Ancient Grudge and Fury Charm. I personally adore fury charm-I just love it. It's sleek, smooth and versatile. All good fun until they do it again in shadowmoor:Smash to Smithereens. Hmm, good cards and seemingly as good as or better than the original. What's that? Strictly better? Amazing that they obsoleted a card from Alpha, I wonder if they can repeat this miracle again?
While we don't know yet if 11th has shatter, I would say this. If they do decide to reprint shatter, please make sure you reprint anything besides shatter.
When I see a card like maniacal rage in the list for the next NEW set, I know I am getting ripped off. I have this card already. I don't use it, I don't see anyone else using it. You've printed it 3 times now, so we won't be needing anymore.
Here's my other part to this rant. Don't tell me it's good for limited-anythings good for limited when you really get down to it. You have no choice in limited, you have to use these bad cards, THAT'S WHY THEY CALL IT LIMITED! Stop excusing wotc's part in this, don't forgive them by saying, "I can't wait to see what this does in limited". You're encouraging them to do this to you.
The couple people here quoting Maro and wotc's words as if they're scripture, I pity and look down on you. Not because I think I'm better. I don't. I enjoy his articles too by the way. I do so because you've been duped and I wish somehow the veil were to be removed from your eyes. You read his articles and and then come in here and preach his word like a good little disciple. Some day you will know better.
To wizards I say this: you are not fooling me and the rest of the educated players here. Don't spend time prepping us with your weekly articles on card design on why I need to shell out my hard earned money on crap I already got so you guys can spend less on manhours and testing. I realize it's not easy. Just as you must realize that it's not hard to spend my time and money on something else to entertain me. I care about this game, we all do. And while I don't think I can do better than you, I know you can do better than you what you're doing now.
So in the future, pass me the fury charm and hold the shatter.
When I see a card like maniacal rage in the list for the next NEW set, I know I am getting ripped off. I have this card already. I don't use it, I don't see anyone else using it. You've printed it 3 times now, so we won't be needing anymore.
Wait, you're being ripped off because one common of ~40 happens to be one you don't play and it's only been reprinted twice over 12 years? Cards that haven't been reprinted at ALL in 9 years that saw considerable block and even some standard play that will most likely see constructed play again, not to mention beastial in limited? The second best Domain draw spell EVER printed? A card that was a STAPLE of a tier 1 Extended deck? You feel ripped off by these?
Here's my other part to this rant. Don't tell me it's good for limited-anythings good for limited when you really get down to it. You have no choice in limited, you have to use these bad cards, THAT'S WHY THEY CALL IT LIMITED! Stop excusing wotc's part in this, don't forgive them by saying, "I can't wait to see what this does in limited". You're encouraging them to do this to you.
The only card that's majorly swingy in Limited are the Bears, which take up literally one half of the reprints. They are elegant 2 mana solutions to a routinely rainbow-colored Limited format that, when something isn't broken, doesn't need fixing when reintroduced. Unsummon is just a solid card, particularly against Devour creatures but the effect probably isn't worthwhile enough to make its way into Block play. This, of course, ignoring your major misunderstanding of Limited and what makes a Limited format fun and interesting. (pro tip: it is not piles of "bad cards")
All of these reprints are major contenders for Block and possibly constructed play (particularly if the Shocklands, as rumored, return in 11th). Might of Alara and Worldly Council are two high tier cards, while the Bears will probably serve the same purpose they did in Invasion block and standard formats - efficient men against the swingiest color you need protection from.
To wizards I say this: you are not fooling me and the rest of the educated players here. Don't spend time prepping us with your weekly articles on card design on why I need to shell out my hard earned money on crap I already got so you guys can spend less on manhours and testing. I realize it's not easy. Just as you must realize that it's not hard to spend my time and money on something else to entertain me. I care about this game, we all do. And while I don't think I can do better than you, I know you can do better than you what you're doing now.
I'm pretty sure they would have to do considerable testing before reintroducing one of the best cards in Extended last season to Extended as well as a Standard which may have Shocklands back 5 or so months later. I don't know what formats you play, but most of these reprints are good in non-Limited formats (only Maniacal Rage hinges on unplayability as it's generally a poor 23rd card).
The couple people here quoting Maro and wotc's words as if they're scripture, I pity and look down on you. Not because I think I'm better. I don't. I enjoy his articles too by the way. I do so because you've been duped and I wish somehow the veil were to be removed from your eyes. You read his articles and and then come in here and preach his word like a good little disciple. Some day you will know better.
To wizards I say this: you are not fooling me and the rest of the educated players here. Don't spend time prepping us with your weekly articles on card design on why I need to shell out my hard earned money on crap I already got so you guys can spend less on manhours and testing. I realize it's not easy. Just as you must realize that it's not hard to spend my time and money on something else to entertain me. I care about this game, we all do. And while I don't think I can do better than you, I know you can do better than you what you're doing now.
So in the future, pass me the fury charm and hold the shatter.
That's kinda harsh, man. Please don't assume that people who quote MaRo/Wizards are uneducated or blinded just because we could not express a point better with our own words. Besides, we're not the people working behind the scenes at Wizards, they know the forecast, they know the trends, and they probably see things that we don't. Least we can do is wait and see first, then rant when something that's only 5% spoiled is done, see if we're still going to enjoy that set in relation with the other sets of Magic.
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These are for the most part commons were talking about. Commmons are not going to make or break a set IMO. I just as soon the reprint unsommon so I can use 1 or 4 of the 14 copies I already own instead of having to shell out .50 for a common that does the exact same thing but I don't own 4 copies of. I don't see how commons good/bad/indifferent are going to increase or decrease the value of a set overall.
That's kinda harsh, man. Please don't assume that people who quote MaRo/Wizards are uneducated or blinded just because we could not express a point better with our own words. Besides, we're not the people working behind the scenes at Wizards, they know the forecast, they know the trends, and they probably see things that we don't. Least we can do is wait and see first, then rant when something that's only 5% spoiled is done, see if we're still going to enjoy that set in relation with the other sets of Magic.
Cmon now, the only person that used the word uneducated was you. I clearly stated I read and enjoy Maro's articles as well. I'm not after anyone's ego here, I am here to challenge and inspire.
In sports or even at work, if you got a person on your team who is having a bad day, that person is taken off the project/out of the game and they go sit on the bench. I think the same applies here at R&D.
For lo, even Garfield took some time off before he came back and got back in the game. Then left again.:-/
Here's the problem with reprints as I see it, only speaking for myself. When I speak of reprints, I refer to a strict reprint of the card like naturalize. Not referring to stuff like Exotic Orchard or Path to Exile. New takes on old cards are ok and not what I am discussing.
Let's look at Stone rain as my 1st example. I think this card was necessary at one time, but it went out of fashion and people HATED seeing this in their packs after some time. I don't remember exactly when, but I do remember there being a huge stink about it at one point(IIRC). It's been printed more than any other card outside of the basic land. That's 15 times in normal sets, 18 if you count portal, ect.
Unsummon has been in every core besides 9th. For those that have been around for most of those sets, this card is not that important to warrant a constant reprint. Is it good for a new player to see, understand and use? Sure-but required reading material? Does it matter now that Wotc has stated that they know new players buy and consume mostly the expert sets?
Now look at the last example, Shatter. Printed 13 times with Mirrodin being the most succesful outing as you all recall. However, this one didn't quite make it to 10th. Interestingly enough, Time Spiral block gave shatter 2 little brothers. Ancient Grudge and Fury Charm. I personally adore fury charm-I just love it. It's sleek, smooth and versatile. All good fun until they do it again in shadowmoor:Smash to Smithereens. Hmm, good cards and seemingly as good as or better than the original. What's that? Strictly better? Amazing that they obsoleted a card from Alpha, I wonder if they can repeat this miracle again?
While we don't know yet if 11th has shatter, I would say this. If they do decide to reprint shatter, please make sure you reprint anything besides shatter.
When I see a card like maniacal rage in the list for the next NEW set, I know I am getting ripped off. I have this card already. I don't use it, I don't see anyone else using it. You've printed it 3 times now, so we won't be needing anymore.
Here's my other part to this rant. Don't tell me it's good for limited-anythings good for limited when you really get down to it. You have no choice in limited, you have to use these bad cards, THAT'S WHY THEY CALL IT LIMITED! Stop excusing wotc's part in this, don't forgive them by saying, "I can't wait to see what this does in limited". You're encouraging them to do this to you.
The couple people here quoting Maro and wotc's words as if they're scripture, I pity and look down on you. Not because I think I'm better. I don't. I enjoy his articles too by the way. I do so because you've been duped and I wish somehow the veil were to be removed from your eyes. You read his articles and and then come in here and preach his word like a good little disciple. Some day you will know better.
To wizards I say this: you are not fooling me and the rest of the educated players here. Don't spend time prepping us with your weekly articles on card design on why I need to shell out my hard earned money on crap I already got so you guys can spend less on manhours and testing. I realize it's not easy. Just as you must realize that it's not hard to spend my time and money on something else to entertain me. I care about this game, we all do. And while I don't think I can do better than you, I know you can do better than you what you're doing now.
So in the future, pass me the fury charm and hold the shatter.
i think i love you!
the thing is why on earth would you reprint something that is already in standard and already isn't played? This may be revolutionary but maybe just maybe you should not print it
EDIT: also i have a question WHY THE HELL IS WOTC STILL PRINTING TRIBAL. NO ONE LIKED IT TO BEGIN WITH AND THEY INSIST ON MAKING 3 STUPID BLOCKS? why don't they try enemy colors, when i say that i mean a WHOLE block devoted to it not just a few cards.
P.S im sorry that this "wall" of text is very scary and menacing but i believe you can do it the lack of gramer and punctuation is because i have a blood fued with it due to the fact when i was four and the teacher said i would die poor and lonely and the kids would dance on my grave when i died because i could not correctly punctuate with commas
Lets look at it this way, reprints can breathe new life into a card. Dragonstorm is one such example. It went from crap rare to a key part of a combo deck that lasted for 2 years. And had two very different builds.
As for why reprint something that is already in standard? Block constructed. And people do like making their elf and goblin decks. And merfolk. You get the idea.
Lets look at it this way, reprints can breathe new life into a card. Dragonstorm is one such example. It went from crap rare to a key part of a combo deck that lasted for 2 years. And had two very different builds.
As for why reprint something that is already in standard? Block constructed. And people do like making their elf and goblin decks. And merfolk. You get the idea.
goblins for example maybe played in block and vintage but it isn't played in standard or extended(well there are 3 decent storm decks that use empty the warrens and 1 is a "goblin" deck)also the vintage goblins haven't benefited from any recent goblin card printed so that one doesnt count and there is an ELVES! compared to the rest of magic, block seems to be the least played format. The thing is you shouldn't print a card thinking it will be good in block or limited. take tarmogoyf hes played in every format, however that card was a little too powerful.
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P.S im sorry that this "wall" of text is very scary and menacing but i believe you can do it the lack of gramer and punctuation is because i have a blood fued with it due to the fact when i was four and the teacher said i would die poor and lonely and the kids would dance on my grave when i died because i could not correctly punctuate with commas
goblins for example maybe played in block and vintage but it isn't played in standard or extended(well there are 3 decent storm decks that use empty the warrens and 1 is a "goblin" deck)also the vintage goblins haven't benefited from any recent goblin card printed so that one doesnt count and there is an ELVES! compared to the rest of magic, block seems to be the least played format. The thing is you shouldn't print a card thinking it will be good in block or limited. take tarmogoyf hes played in every format, however that card was a little too powerful.
1. He was speaking of casual elf and goblin and merfolk decks, I think, ones that want to swing for 2 instead of trying to combo out turn 2.
2. Block constructed and limited environments are most definitely important things to test for. Not everyone is a Standard or Extended constructed player, and Limited formats involve about half the tournaments that are run. I don't see why you think they shouldn't look at those formats too.
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I agree with you, reprinting can resurrect a card. My argument remains this: reprint the stuff that is known to be valued by people.
Good reprints: Condemn has seen some tourney value they say CLONE I remember when this came back in Onsalught-awesome timing: brought it back in black borders and truly reintroduced a whole new generation of players to the coolness that is clone. Also long enough time had lapsed that the extra copies circulating in print actually benefitted the market. Nekrataal well timed reappearance when it came back IIRC rampant growth still has use in modern builds-I see people on these boards referring to it quite often
Bad reprints: maniacal rage oh you'll feel the rage alright demystify still waiting to be DE-mystified about this one frozen solid nice tie-in with flavor but it left a bad taste in my mouth.
My top 10 list for cards that would be valued as a reprint:
1. Aluren Crazy powerful-yes broken? who knows but I say let the players decide that
3. Lightning Helix actually another MTGS member suggested it first somehwere else and I forget who exactly but....
Who wouldn't love seeing this come back-it could wait another 2-3 years though.
4. Skyshroud elf nice little mana elf that converts G mana into it allied colors...very balanced and yet they never deigned to reprint it and I don't know why.
5. All the ninjas Tons of players including myself truly miss these guys. Wotc can take the time to rename and reissue grizzly bear, yet the ninjas won't see any love? I mean I know they try to save and recycle mechanics for down the road ala cycling but I think they are missing the boat here.
6. Death Grasp Personal fave of mine and balanced.
7. Sneak Attack Tell you what wotc, reprint this and I'll never bad mouth you on these forums again. Promise
R used to mean something more than just goblins and burn spells. It used to be the color of war and it had actual tactics besides direct damage. Sure white had some game and all, but red? Red had Keldon Warlord, rites of initiation, even the fun little 1-drop Onslaught. Turn R back into a color of substance again, please.
1. He was speaking of casual elf and goblin and merfolk decks, I think, ones that want to swing for 2 instead of trying to combo out turn 2.
2. Block constructed and limited environments are most definitely important things to test for. Not everyone is a Standard or Extended constructed player, and Limited formats involve about half the tournaments that are run. I don't see why you think they shouldn't look at those formats too.
however most people that compete in limited also compete in constructed
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P.S im sorry that this "wall" of text is very scary and menacing but i believe you can do it the lack of gramer and punctuation is because i have a blood fued with it due to the fact when i was four and the teacher said i would die poor and lonely and the kids would dance on my grave when i died because i could not correctly punctuate with commas
frozen solid nice tie-in with flavor but it left a bad taste in my mouth.
Frozen Solid wasn't a bad reprint. Not only was it great for flavor, it's one of the few blue cards that actually kills creatures. It's not like that's something blue does very often. You can even play it on the creature while its untapped, so it's useful against creatures typically used for blocking, too (unlike most stays tapped enchantments). Besides that, every single burn spell/pinger in Coldsnap becomes lethal in U/R regardless of how big the creature is. It reminds me of how Lingify/Snakeform/Lace with Moonglove gives green creature removal. Sure, Frozen Solid isn't great for constructed, but it's pretty damn hard to print blue creature kill in the current color pie. I'ts basically a blue Arrest. This one limits attacking/blocking/tap abilities to a 1 time thing, plus, makes the creature easier to kill. I've rarely been disappointed to draw one and have even used it in casual occasionally.
Demystify would have actually been rather good in Shadowmoor limited with all those god auras running around. In that format, I would have loved to see it return. It wouldn't have been Shatter in Mirrodin good, but it would have gone as a decently high pick.
Outlander cycle - 5. Ok, Vedalken one is an artifact which makes difference, but not that much difference from a design standpoint. Thems not a bad bunch of cards, but there could really be more small twists(like important card types) there.
Maniacal Rage, Mana Cylix, Unsummon, Wordly Counsel - straight reprints. Well, at least Counsel may see some block play... 9 total.
Canyon Minotaur - Hill Giant. I know, Hill Giants are important in limited but they could give it at least some twist... It's an expert set after all. There's already a Grizzly Bears here, though, so no point in complaining here. 10.
Nacatl Savage - Tel-Jilad Chosen. Don't like it here, though. 1 shard of five is playing artifacts actively, that shard is usually underdrafted and either way most of its played creatures have flying so there's little point in protection. Well, less than in Mirrodin. 11.
Might of Alara - Gaea's Might. Might reappear in extended domain zoo. Might not. Not a bad reprint but without buh-roken mana bases it will be as good as it was during IPA block. And good it was not . 12.
Ok, the next ones are arguable since they're near reprints but sometimes near makes a huge difference. Sometimes it doesn't.
Lapse of Certainty - ok, it's as much Memory Lapse as Cancel is Counterspell... Even more 'cause this is a colorshift also. Yet, I just can't keep myself from subconciously calling it "white memory lapse" so... 13
Scepter of Dominance - same as above. The mana cost is different, that one mana difference will make a huge gap in playability yet... Once again, "white Icy Manipulator" 14
Scepter of Fugue - as above. 15.
Scepter of Insight - as above. 16.
Valiant Guard - Wall of Wood. An ability to attack makes the difference. No, really. 17.
Grixis Illusionist - Tideshaper Mystic, only more powerful. strange, though. So they thought that mana screwing was too good for a block with mostly two-color limited decks but is alright for a block with 3+ color decks? Wowza, that's too smart for me to comprehend. 18.
Drag Down - oh, so we wan't to make a domain interesting mechanic? Let's reprint some old card with it only as an instant. Exotic Curse. Sure, there's tons of difference mechanically, still... Similar is similar. It's like twins - they are totally different people but they do look the same. 19
Wild Leotau - slightly reworked Darba. Not as stupid as Darba - what's the point of one colored mana in cost if you have to pay two colored mana nex upkeep or loose it? But almost reprint it is. 20.
Manaforce Mace - Power Armor. Sure, it's better, but why does domain mechanic feel so recycled? 21
Spore Burst - ok, not quite an Ordered Migration but when a freaking lot of other domain cards screams of IPA domain you're starting to remember things. Let's give it 0,5. 21,5.
Countersquall - ok, Negate is too basic to call variations of it reprints, yet, this one came too soon, I think. Another half'a'point. 22.
Jhessian Balmgiver - as I've said, you start remembering things. Things like Samite Archer. Pretty different as they are, their have the same design pattern thus... 22,5.
That's much, I suppose. It's not like I like to whine and it's not like I like whining - Conflux is a fine set yet... I think they've started worrying about running out of ideas (shortened set sizes + that much reprints) too soon. I mean, look at how many fan-made sets are there, look at how rich for the names english language is and even if they run dry, they can always go by the route of "somenastyplace somecreature type" template. They've clearly got enough to last at least another 20 years and more than that... Do they expect to live forever?
Um....I'm sorry Istar but you are really reaching on some of those. The straight reprints, the outlander cycle, the minotaur, the savage and the might I'll give you (though the different creature types matter a lot), but the rest are stretches.
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Reprints are a staple on set design, and we shouldn't be too upset or surprised. If anything, I think the cards they've chosen to reprint in Conflux all seem to be a great fit. They weren't just stuck in to fill a slot - they have a relevance. Also, Domain is a great key ability to bring back in a 3 color focused block - especially if they include Barry's land, which will help you get domain of four in a three color deck.
But I wouldn't be surprised if Oblivion Ring shows up in 11th.
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/mm/17
#2 – We Can Find the Most Efficient Version. While Magic has significant design space, its simple design space is actually quite small. There are a limited number of basic things cards can do. Fifteen years in, odds are we've found most of them (but not all—and finding those gems is very thrilling for a designer). This means when we're trying to find a card to fit into a set, odds are that they cleanest, simplest, most direct version has already been done. Sometimes that's exactly what we want to use. This isn't to say that tweaks can't often fill this role, but part of making Magic stand up to the test of time is the willingness to pluck cards from throughout time to build it.
Gotta give RnD some credit, guys. 15 years of innovating and they're bound to run into some creativity slumps every now and then. Cut them some slack, wait for the rest of the set, wait for new cards in the future and continue playing the game for as long as it's still fun.
Also from the article:
#5 – Conservation of Design Space. Why not make a new card whenever possible? Because new cards come with a cost. Design space is finite. The faster we chew through new content, the less that remains. There are not an endless numbers of simple tweaks. Sometimes rather than reinvent the wheel, we just use the wheel.
Been playing this game for a decade at least, and it still surprises me how RnD can still come out with unique mechanics and card designs.
Something to think about?
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So true buddy.
Very good points too.
As for reprints go, they don't reprint absolute garbage. Well the vanilla bears were yucky, however the protection bears are so cool too. Unsummon is grand as well. And I have always loved Domain.
Go go reprint Odyssey style! Entomb for the win!
I understand you can't print Counterspell again or for awhile... I understand Winter Orb is probably too powerful in Standard as well as Armageddon... but can I at least get Sylvan Library? Maybe just a functional reprint? In fact? It can cost 3 instead of 2. I want a lot of the very old cards ack into Standard. I started on Invasion Block and all these cards kinda disappeared after the set... Seeing them back takes me back to my Casual Days of yore.
Being a competitive player now, I realize the Pro-Bears are stronger than I originally thought. Oh well, I still want to see some of the older cards.... And when are they going to bring back Ensanaring Bridge?!
Obviously they could modify the card to make it harder to cheat with but apparently they don't want to.
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9 years is a LONG time and, to date, none of these cards have been remade during that 9 year period- if anything, it's more surprising it's taken Wizards to bring these cards back than to say they're mean and not coming to my birthday for reprinting them at all. Particularly cards like Worldly Council, Might of Alara and the Pro-Bears, which were all tournament staples to some degree while they were legal. (HOW MANY OF YOU REMEMBER YAVIMAYA BARBARIAN BEING THE LAST MAN STANDING AGAINST A RAMPAGING PSYCHATOG? HOLY CRAP!)
The "functions the same or similarly" cards are, guess what, new cards. Icy Manipulator never had White in its cost and Disrupting Scepter was never only really playable in Mono-Black decks. Swords to Plowshares was never the best card to see in your all-out aggro deck. I also don't remember Man-o-War being functional with Riptide Lab or bouncing an ultimate-ready Chandra. I always had to pay mana for my Fellowar Stone.
10 reprint or near reprints in a small set is, let's not mix words, a lot. 6% of a spoiled set, still leaving room for other functionally identical reprints, is at least sizable when you're cracking packs looking for cool, new and innovative cards. However, to reiterate, these cards haven't been reprinted for some time and, on the back of Lorwyn, some of the new creature types may even be relevant with the inclusion of the Pro-Bears.
Are there a lot of reprints? Considering the set's small size, yes. Is it too many for the set's good? All things considered, no.
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AMEN!!! So far the reprints/near reprints have all seem very balanced and well placed in this set. The Pro bears are going to be really good for limited and probably even good for block. The scepters are all well designed and seem more balanced than their colorless counterparts. I just dont understand why everyone seems so upset when R&D seems to have done an elegant job building this set so far.
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Here's the problem with reprints as I see it, only speaking for myself. When I speak of reprints, I refer to a strict reprint of the card like naturalize. Not referring to stuff like Exotic Orchard or Path to Exile. New takes on old cards are ok and not what I am discussing.
Let's look at Stone rain as my 1st example. I think this card was necessary at one time, but it went out of fashion and people HATED seeing this in their packs after some time. I don't remember exactly when, but I do remember there being a huge stink about it at one point(IIRC). It's been printed more than any other card outside of the basic land. That's 15 times in normal sets, 18 if you count portal, ect.
Unsummon has been in every core besides 9th. For those that have been around for most of those sets, this card is not that important to warrant a constant reprint. Is it good for a new player to see, understand and use? Sure-but required reading material? Does it matter now that Wotc has stated that they know new players buy and consume mostly the expert sets?
Now look at the last example, Shatter. Printed 13 times with Mirrodin being the most succesful outing as you all recall. However, this one didn't quite make it to 10th. Interestingly enough, Time Spiral block gave shatter 2 little brothers. Ancient Grudge and Fury Charm. I personally adore fury charm-I just love it. It's sleek, smooth and versatile. All good fun until they do it again in shadowmoor:Smash to Smithereens. Hmm, good cards and seemingly as good as or better than the original. What's that? Strictly better? Amazing that they obsoleted a card from Alpha, I wonder if they can repeat this miracle again?
While we don't know yet if 11th has shatter, I would say this. If they do decide to reprint shatter, please make sure you reprint anything besides shatter.
When I see a card like maniacal rage in the list for the next NEW set, I know I am getting ripped off. I have this card already. I don't use it, I don't see anyone else using it. You've printed it 3 times now, so we won't be needing anymore.
Here's my other part to this rant. Don't tell me it's good for limited-anythings good for limited when you really get down to it. You have no choice in limited, you have to use these bad cards, THAT'S WHY THEY CALL IT LIMITED! Stop excusing wotc's part in this, don't forgive them by saying, "I can't wait to see what this does in limited". You're encouraging them to do this to you.
The couple people here quoting Maro and wotc's words as if they're scripture, I pity and look down on you. Not because I think I'm better. I don't. I enjoy his articles too by the way. I do so because you've been duped and I wish somehow the veil were to be removed from your eyes. You read his articles and and then come in here and preach his word like a good little disciple. Some day you will know better.
To wizards I say this: you are not fooling me and the rest of the educated players here. Don't spend time prepping us with your weekly articles on card design on why I need to shell out my hard earned money on crap I already got so you guys can spend less on manhours and testing. I realize it's not easy. Just as you must realize that it's not hard to spend my time and money on something else to entertain me. I care about this game, we all do. And while I don't think I can do better than you, I know you can do better than you what you're doing now.
So in the future, pass me the fury charm and hold the shatter.
Wait, you're being ripped off because one common of ~40 happens to be one you don't play and it's only been reprinted twice over 12 years? Cards that haven't been reprinted at ALL in 9 years that saw considerable block and even some standard play that will most likely see constructed play again, not to mention beastial in limited? The second best Domain draw spell EVER printed? A card that was a STAPLE of a tier 1 Extended deck? You feel ripped off by these?
The only card that's majorly swingy in Limited are the Bears, which take up literally one half of the reprints. They are elegant 2 mana solutions to a routinely rainbow-colored Limited format that, when something isn't broken, doesn't need fixing when reintroduced. Unsummon is just a solid card, particularly against Devour creatures but the effect probably isn't worthwhile enough to make its way into Block play. This, of course, ignoring your major misunderstanding of Limited and what makes a Limited format fun and interesting. (pro tip: it is not piles of "bad cards")
All of these reprints are major contenders for Block and possibly constructed play (particularly if the Shocklands, as rumored, return in 11th). Might of Alara and Worldly Council are two high tier cards, while the Bears will probably serve the same purpose they did in Invasion block and standard formats - efficient men against the swingiest color you need protection from.
I'm pretty sure they would have to do considerable testing before reintroducing one of the best cards in Extended last season to Extended as well as a Standard which may have Shocklands back 5 or so months later. I don't know what formats you play, but most of these reprints are good in non-Limited formats (only Maniacal Rage hinges on unplayability as it's generally a poor 23rd card).
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That's kinda harsh, man. Please don't assume that people who quote MaRo/Wizards are uneducated or blinded just because we could not express a point better with our own words. Besides, we're not the people working behind the scenes at Wizards, they know the forecast, they know the trends, and they probably see things that we don't. Least we can do is wait and see first, then rant when something that's only 5% spoiled is done, see if we're still going to enjoy that set in relation with the other sets of Magic.
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Cmon now, the only person that used the word uneducated was you. I clearly stated I read and enjoy Maro's articles as well. I'm not after anyone's ego here, I am here to challenge and inspire.
In sports or even at work, if you got a person on your team who is having a bad day, that person is taken off the project/out of the game and they go sit on the bench. I think the same applies here at R&D.
For lo, even Garfield took some time off before he came back and got back in the game. Then left again.:-/
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the thing is why on earth would you reprint something that is already in standard and already isn't played? This may be revolutionary but maybe just maybe you should not print it
EDIT: also i have a question WHY THE HELL IS WOTC STILL PRINTING TRIBAL. NO ONE LIKED IT TO BEGIN WITH AND THEY INSIST ON MAKING 3 STUPID BLOCKS? why don't they try enemy colors, when i say that i mean a WHOLE block devoted to it not just a few cards.
As for why reprint something that is already in standard? Block constructed. And people do like making their elf and goblin decks. And merfolk. You get the idea.
goblins for example maybe played in block and vintage but it isn't played in standard or extended(well there are 3 decent storm decks that use empty the warrens and 1 is a "goblin" deck)also the vintage goblins haven't benefited from any recent goblin card printed so that one doesnt count and there is an ELVES! compared to the rest of magic, block seems to be the least played format. The thing is you shouldn't print a card thinking it will be good in block or limited. take tarmogoyf hes played in every format, however that card was a little too powerful.
1. He was speaking of casual elf and goblin and merfolk decks, I think, ones that want to swing for 2 instead of trying to combo out turn 2.
2. Block constructed and limited environments are most definitely important things to test for. Not everyone is a Standard or Extended constructed player, and Limited formats involve about half the tournaments that are run. I don't see why you think they shouldn't look at those formats too.
Good reprints:
Condemn has seen some tourney value they say
CLONE I remember when this came back in Onsalught-awesome timing: brought it back in black borders and truly reintroduced a whole new generation of players to the coolness that is clone. Also long enough time had lapsed that the extra copies circulating in print actually benefitted the market.
Nekrataal well timed reappearance when it came back IIRC
rampant growth still has use in modern builds-I see people on these boards referring to it quite often
Bad reprints: maniacal rage oh you'll feel the rage alright
demystify still waiting to be DE-mystified about this one
frozen solid nice tie-in with flavor but it left a bad taste in my mouth.
My top 10 list for cards that would be valued as a reprint:
1. Aluren Crazy powerful-yes broken? who knows but I say let the players decide that
2. Rancor It's my list after all
3. Lightning Helix actually another MTGS member suggested it first somehwere else and I forget who exactly but....
Who wouldn't love seeing this come back-it could wait another 2-3 years though.
4. Skyshroud elf nice little mana elf that converts G mana into it allied colors...very balanced and yet they never deigned to reprint it and I don't know why.
5. All the ninjas Tons of players including myself truly miss these guys. Wotc can take the time to rename and reissue grizzly bear, yet the ninjas won't see any love? I mean I know they try to save and recycle mechanics for down the road ala cycling but I think they are missing the boat here.
6. Death Grasp Personal fave of mine and balanced.
7. Sneak Attack Tell you what wotc, reprint this and I'll never bad mouth you on these forums again. Promise
8. Sneaky Jackalope Fear the rabbits.
9. Portcullis This card is just hilarious in multiplayer.
10. Raging River or even Feint
R used to mean something more than just goblins and burn spells. It used to be the color of war and it had actual tactics besides direct damage. Sure white had some game and all, but red? Red had Keldon Warlord, rites of initiation, even the fun little 1-drop Onslaught. Turn R back into a color of substance again, please.
however most people that compete in limited also compete in constructed
Frozen Solid wasn't a bad reprint. Not only was it great for flavor, it's one of the few blue cards that actually kills creatures. It's not like that's something blue does very often. You can even play it on the creature while its untapped, so it's useful against creatures typically used for blocking, too (unlike most stays tapped enchantments). Besides that, every single burn spell/pinger in Coldsnap becomes lethal in U/R regardless of how big the creature is. It reminds me of how Lingify/Snakeform/Lace with Moonglove gives green creature removal. Sure, Frozen Solid isn't great for constructed, but it's pretty damn hard to print blue creature kill in the current color pie. I'ts basically a blue Arrest. This one limits attacking/blocking/tap abilities to a 1 time thing, plus, makes the creature easier to kill. I've rarely been disappointed to draw one and have even used it in casual occasionally.
Demystify would have actually been rather good in Shadowmoor limited with all those god auras running around. In that format, I would have loved to see it return. It wouldn't have been Shatter in Mirrodin good, but it would have gone as a decently high pick.
Outlander cycle - 5. Ok, Vedalken one is an artifact which makes difference, but not that much difference from a design standpoint. Thems not a bad bunch of cards, but there could really be more small twists(like important card types) there.
Maniacal Rage, Mana Cylix, Unsummon, Wordly Counsel - straight reprints. Well, at least Counsel may see some block play... 9 total.
Canyon Minotaur - Hill Giant. I know, Hill Giants are important in limited but they could give it at least some twist... It's an expert set after all. There's already a Grizzly Bears here, though, so no point in complaining here. 10.
Nacatl Savage - Tel-Jilad Chosen. Don't like it here, though. 1 shard of five is playing artifacts actively, that shard is usually underdrafted and either way most of its played creatures have flying so there's little point in protection. Well, less than in Mirrodin. 11.
Might of Alara - Gaea's Might. Might reappear in extended domain zoo. Might not. Not a bad reprint but without buh-roken mana bases it will be as good as it was during IPA block. And good it was not . 12.
Ok, the next ones are arguable since they're near reprints but sometimes near makes a huge difference. Sometimes it doesn't.
Lapse of Certainty - ok, it's as much Memory Lapse as Cancel is Counterspell... Even more 'cause this is a colorshift also. Yet, I just can't keep myself from subconciously calling it "white memory lapse" so... 13
Scepter of Dominance - same as above. The mana cost is different, that one mana difference will make a huge gap in playability yet... Once again, "white Icy Manipulator" 14
Scepter of Fugue - as above. 15.
Scepter of Insight - as above. 16.
Valiant Guard - Wall of Wood. An ability to attack makes the difference. No, really. 17.
Grixis Illusionist - Tideshaper Mystic, only more powerful. strange, though. So they thought that mana screwing was too good for a block with mostly two-color limited decks but is alright for a block with 3+ color decks? Wowza, that's too smart for me to comprehend. 18.
Drag Down - oh, so we wan't to make a domain interesting mechanic? Let's reprint some old card with it only as an instant. Exotic Curse. Sure, there's tons of difference mechanically, still... Similar is similar. It's like twins - they are totally different people but they do look the same. 19
Wild Leotau - slightly reworked Darba. Not as stupid as Darba - what's the point of one colored mana in cost if you have to pay two colored mana nex upkeep or loose it? But almost reprint it is. 20.
Manaforce Mace - Power Armor. Sure, it's better, but why does domain mechanic feel so recycled? 21
Spore Burst - ok, not quite an Ordered Migration but when a freaking lot of other domain cards screams of IPA domain you're starting to remember things. Let's give it 0,5. 21,5.
Countersquall - ok, Negate is too basic to call variations of it reprints, yet, this one came too soon, I think. Another half'a'point. 22.
Jhessian Balmgiver - as I've said, you start remembering things. Things like Samite Archer. Pretty different as they are, their have the same design pattern thus... 22,5.
That's much, I suppose. It's not like I like to whine and it's not like I like whining - Conflux is a fine set yet... I think they've started worrying about running out of ideas (shortened set sizes + that much reprints) too soon. I mean, look at how many fan-made sets are there, look at how rich for the names english language is and even if they run dry, they can always go by the route of "somenastyplace somecreature type" template. They've clearly got enough to last at least another 20 years and more than that... Do they expect to live forever?