A bunch of folks didn't consider the vanillas from FS "lazy design" because of their P/T ratios compared to their casting costs.
A bunch of folks don't think Cylan elf is "lazy design" because it has "Elf" tacked on it.
Here's a scenario: 3/1 FS vanilla... You look at it, you go, "Bah, just another vanilla." You look at it again, and you think: "3/1 for 1W. Hmnnnn?" 2/2 Elf vanilla... You look at it, you go, "Bah, just another vanilla." You look at it again, and you think: "Elf?... it's an Elf?"
Of course, the former leads to something worthwhile, while the later is probably there for newbies to think about, but powerlevel isn't the point.
The card is what it has to be. There's nothing "lazy" about it. Just because it's underpowered, doesn't mean it's "lazy design." I think there's a reason why that card's there. Some of you guys probably think somebody slipped up... or "got lazy."
Yes, because they have never printed a 2/2 elf for 1G before. Definitely not in last block.
Btw, I got your point. And I also don't think they have been lazy. But I do think they have been mistaken.
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I rolled 5 D6's and got 3 fours. They must have changed the odds of getting a 4!
It'd be weird if the explanation for the poor design decisions made in ALA was simple laziness, per se. I seriously doubt that people at R&D were just loafing around the office on the day before submissions for Alara were due, and as 5:00 rolled around, were like "Oh crap we forgot to design the last 15 cards of the set, kay here's a few vanillas, a few cards we already printed in the previous block, and a 2/1 for 3R that regenerates if you pay like five different costs."
More likely, in my opinion, is that there was a conscious decision to scale back complexity and power level across the board, primarily as a way of drawing in new players. The fact that it was a deliberate choice doesn't mean that it was a good one, as you can tell by the fact that we're all here in this thread whining about it. They went for elegance, deliberately toning down card complexity to avoid "over-designing" the set, and ended up failing in multiple places.
It's not. I agree 100%. I'd even wager there's some very odd undiscovered defensive deck out there he could have fit in, but the environment got aggressive too fast.
I was sorting some RAV cards. To me, that set had a lot of uninteresting junk. Perhaps its just because I dislike mill (or really any alternate win) strategies, so the whole UB angle didn't appeal to me. There were a bunch of "enchant me" creatures that couldn't overcome card disadvantage, sac creatures that recurred with gold cards, etc. In fact, it seems much RAV nostalgia is based on its long-overdue color-fixing. And maybe dredge and saprolings.
I could be wrong, as I wasn't in T2 until TS hit... How does ALA chaff compare to RAV chaff in people's opinions?
Other than the much hated Spell Snip, there isn't really anything that compares to the level of **** some Ravnica block commons are. Seriously, there's a 3/3 for 5 that gains flying if it's enchanted. There's a 0/6 for 6 mana that returns to your hand if it blocks. There's a horrible kill spell that's only real purpose would be to transmute for something. Seriously, 5 mana is too much for a Dark Banishing variant. Conclave's Blessing makes no sense at all. It's a defensive spell that encourages you to tap your creatures for it.Dromad Purebred needs no explanation. We had a Goblin Mountaineer in Grayscaled Gharial. Stasis Cell makes you wonder about the aura people complain about from Alara. Tattered DrakeDryad's CaressCrystal Seer WTF?
Ravnica was a great block. When its commons were bad, though, they weren't even worth siding in for limited.
As far as the 7 mana cyclers, they have huge bodies. They cycle when you don't need them. If there's a nice reanimation spell or two in the block, they turn to solid gold in limited. I still miss Wirewood GuardianKrosan Tusker and Twisted Abomination from back when I was a lowly noob myself. They kicked some serious ass if you played them with Exhume from Urza Block. Reanimation targets that negate the card disadvantage and put themselves into the graveyard aren't exactly terrible. Of course, I also had a love affair with Prowling Pangolin at that time, too. It's either cheap fat or 2 for 1. These things teach noobs the concept of card advantage/quality in the attractive form of a huge creature.
Also, as far as the white one goes, be grateful. Up until the last couple years, it would have been a 3/7 or some other stupid number. It's only been since Timespiral block that white was granted access to decent limited fat. Before that, high mana white un/commons were just fat assed blockers.
Aren't all of them constructed playable, and as such, important in block.
Aren't all of them limited playable, and as such, important in sealed and draft?
Okay, maybe not gobin mountaineer, but hey, landwalk in a block that really wants you to multicolor it up seems like it at least pretends to power.
Doesn't seam so lazy to me, particularly since the reprints are things that tend to be redone every block with a block mechinic, and there isn't a particularly good way to do naturalize (a card that i can think of?), given that all of the green mechinics care about creatures.
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The guy who found the new art for shock and other 10th edition cards on the wizards site.
Butcher of Words.
And all of these, save the last example, are in common slots. Really! Who didn't have all the commons they needed after the first few weeks of a set's release? By then everyone's after those one or two chase rares that Mike Flores says all of you need.
At least they're not taking up a rare slot like Squire did in TS. Hell, Future Sight had five of these guys. Did people complain about those(really, I don't know)? Or did the purdy full-art look distract them from their blandness? Maybe Lorwyn/Shadowmoor block spoiled everybody since I don't remember a single creature from that set that didn't have rules text.
Several years ago, WotC apparently surveyed Magic players across the globe. They found that people liked turning things sideways, and hated LD. This is the result:
There were some vanilla hybird cards like the G/W treefolk and a random large giant (who really really really wanted trample to be good because it cost like 8).
But for some reason, people think hybird is an ability.
At some level, it's kinda funny, because people are complaining about a common bear :).
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The guy who found the new art for shock and other 10th edition cards on the wizards site.
Butcher of Words.
There were some vanilla hybird cards like the G/W treefolk and a random large giant (who really really really wanted trample to be good because it cost like 8).
Oh yeah. I guess those did slip my mind... but that doesn't really help the haters' argument. People will forget these vanillas even exist after a while, thus making this big stink they're raising, in retrospect, a waste of their time.
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:symur::symur::symur::symur::symur:
Several years ago, WotC apparently surveyed Magic players across the globe. They found that people liked turning things sideways, and hated LD. This is the result:
There were some vanilla hybird cards like the G/W treefolk and a random large giant (who really really really wanted trample to be good because it cost like 8).
But for some reason, people think hybird is an ability.
At some level, it's kinda funny, because people are complaining about a common bear :).
The giant was 7/6 for 7 mana. That's really pushing it for red. Now, mono green, it sucks. Red isn't entitled to a Duskdale Wurm, though, even being that it can have trample regularly now.
Lorwyn block also had Elvish WarriorAxegrinder Giant and Indomitable Ancients. Woodland Changeling arguably counts, too, since changeling is about as much of a keyword as tribal is a card type. Since Wooly Thochtar doesn't count for some reason, it seems that we're sitting at 2 fewer vanilla creatures than last year at this point.
Like some other posters have said, these cards were printed for a reason. I'm sure that Wizards of the Coast knew the reaction they would cause... and yet they printed them. So they had a plan.
And laziness was not the reason for these cards. People say they can think of more complex designs in several minutes - so can the designers at Wizards of the Coast and they definitely did. During each set's design, there are thousands of card designs. The fact that all of the "more complex" designs were rejected to make room for these simple and "uninteresting" cards points again towards this - they had a plan.
I don't know what the plan is - maybe there will be a column in the future explaining it. But they printed these cards for a reason.
And rareness isn't supposed to have anything to do with card power. Well, that's what WotC says at least (we know this doesn't turn out to be too real, but still, the difference between the two cards is too big.)
Wrong. It matters in limited so card power does effect rarity.
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Btw, I got your point. And I also don't think they have been lazy. But I do think they have been mistaken.
More likely, in my opinion, is that there was a conscious decision to scale back complexity and power level across the board, primarily as a way of drawing in new players. The fact that it was a deliberate choice doesn't mean that it was a good one, as you can tell by the fact that we're all here in this thread whining about it. They went for elegance, deliberately toning down card complexity to avoid "over-designing" the set, and ended up failing in multiple places.
Other than the much hated Spell Snip, there isn't really anything that compares to the level of **** some Ravnica block commons are. Seriously, there's a 3/3 for 5 that gains flying if it's enchanted. There's a 0/6 for 6 mana that returns to your hand if it blocks. There's a horrible kill spell that's only real purpose would be to transmute for something. Seriously, 5 mana is too much for a Dark Banishing variant. Conclave's Blessing makes no sense at all. It's a defensive spell that encourages you to tap your creatures for it.Dromad Purebred needs no explanation. We had a Goblin Mountaineer in Grayscaled Gharial. Stasis Cell makes you wonder about the aura people complain about from Alara. Tattered Drake Dryad's Caress Crystal Seer WTF?
Ravnica was a great block. When its commons were bad, though, they weren't even worth siding in for limited.
As far as the 7 mana cyclers, they have huge bodies. They cycle when you don't need them. If there's a nice reanimation spell or two in the block, they turn to solid gold in limited. I still miss Wirewood Guardian Krosan Tusker and Twisted Abomination from back when I was a lowly noob myself. They kicked some serious ass if you played them with Exhume from Urza Block. Reanimation targets that negate the card disadvantage and put themselves into the graveyard aren't exactly terrible. Of course, I also had a love affair with Prowling Pangolin at that time, too. It's either cheap fat or 2 for 1. These things teach noobs the concept of card advantage/quality in the attractive form of a huge creature.
Also, as far as the white one goes, be grateful. Up until the last couple years, it would have been a 3/7 or some other stupid number. It's only been since Timespiral block that white was granted access to decent limited fat. Before that, high mana white un/commons were just fat assed blockers.
Aren't all of them constructed playable, and as such, important in block.
Aren't all of them limited playable, and as such, important in sealed and draft?
Okay, maybe not gobin mountaineer, but hey, landwalk in a block that really wants you to multicolor it up seems like it at least pretends to power.
Doesn't seam so lazy to me, particularly since the reprints are things that tend to be redone every block with a block mechinic, and there isn't a particularly good way to do naturalize (a card that i can think of?), given that all of the green mechinics care about creatures.
Butcher of Words.
Made by Spiderboy4
By my count, there are only four truly vanilla creatures in this set:
Cylian Elf
Jhessian Lookout
Incurable Ogre
Woolly Thoctar(but no one complains about that, and rightly so, since it is a 5/4 for three mana)
(Note that I didn't count Ridge Rannet or Yoked Plowbeast since they do have an ability, cycling, and as such won't get +2/+2 from Muraganda Petroglyphs, for instance.)
And all of these, save the last example, are in common slots. Really! Who didn't have all the commons they needed after the first few weeks of a set's release? By then everyone's after those one or two chase rares that Mike Flores says all of you need.
At least they're not taking up a rare slot like Squire did in TS. Hell, Future Sight had five of these guys. Did people complain about those(really, I don't know)? Or did the purdy full-art look distract them from their blandness? Maybe Lorwyn/Shadowmoor block spoiled everybody since I don't remember a single creature from that set that didn't have rules text.
/probably useless, over-late-but-mercifully-short rant
Several years ago, WotC apparently surveyed Magic players across the globe. They found that people liked turning things sideways, and hated LD. This is the result:
But for some reason, people think hybird is an ability.
At some level, it's kinda funny, because people are complaining about a common bear :).
Butcher of Words.
Made by Spiderboy4
Oh yeah. I guess those did slip my mind... but that doesn't really help the haters' argument. People will forget these vanillas even exist after a while, thus making this big stink they're raising, in retrospect, a waste of their time.
Several years ago, WotC apparently surveyed Magic players across the globe. They found that people liked turning things sideways, and hated LD. This is the result:
Though I agree the purple time shifted had a lot of crap and only about a list of 7 good cards.
Feel free to bid on my cards here!
The giant was 7/6 for 7 mana. That's really pushing it for red. Now, mono green, it sucks. Red isn't entitled to a Duskdale Wurm, though, even being that it can have trample regularly now.
Lorwyn block also had Elvish Warrior Axegrinder Giant and Indomitable Ancients. Woodland Changeling arguably counts, too, since changeling is about as much of a keyword as tribal is a card type. Since Wooly Thochtar doesn't count for some reason, it seems that we're sitting at 2 fewer vanilla creatures than last year at this point.
And laziness was not the reason for these cards. People say they can think of more complex designs in several minutes - so can the designers at Wizards of the Coast and they definitely did. During each set's design, there are thousands of card designs. The fact that all of the "more complex" designs were rejected to make room for these simple and "uninteresting" cards points again towards this - they had a plan.
I don't know what the plan is - maybe there will be a column in the future explaining it. But they printed these cards for a reason.
Wrong. It matters in limited so card power does effect rarity.
kthnx, kbye <3 <3 <3 <3