This thread is to discuss unearth. I realized after the preview tonight that unearth has a very unfortunate clause in it if you look closely. There is no way to recur the creature more than once which is LAME. I am sure most people agree with me. It really takes the creativity of deck building out of the card and removes any combo synergy from it.
The phrase is the following:
Remove ~ at the end of turn or IF THE CREATURE WOULD LEAVE PLAY.
you wont beable to sac it or blink it nothing. It is gone. Wizards took a good ability and gimped it for no reason
But I think that if there are enough good unearth cards, a deck with Oona's Prowler and Corpse Connaseur (hard word to spell) could have some some potential to be fun.
I don't expect it to be a tier - one mechanic.
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Well, if every single card with Unearth has a weak 187, saboteur ability or ball lightning-like power and trample, it's fine with me. It just feels too much like elementals lite and evoke too soon.
I honestly don't see a problem. This isn't Evoke "Abuse me with Momentary Blink" 2.0. This is "If your creature dies, you get one parting shot plus whatever CITP/Sabateour effect he has one final time". Which I think is actually pretty cool. More blink targets honestly would have been annoying. "Ok, get you with my specter. What's that, you managed to draw removal? Ok, unearth, hit you, Vanish into Mist, go"
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I will note that it seems like Turn to Mist and Momentary Blink would work with this mechanic pretty well. As both of those actually remove the creature from the game. So Turn to Mist could be a great combo card with these creatures.
Yeah if these things could be sacced to stop the RFG or blinked to keep them in play they would be better then Corpse Dance.
By the way corpse dance used to be a good card back in the day I used to recur Ravenous Baloth with it in extended in old rock and laugh at goblin decks.
Once you start gaining 4 life a turn or more as you buy it back more and more they can't keep up especially since you can attack or block with it first.
unearth could actually be pretty good, if the right combo cards could work with it. too bad it has that wording that says "leaves play" if only there was a way to abuse that, we're still waiting for the comprules to be updated, and once we get something perm confirmed about the idea behind unearth and what it really does along with something halfway decent, (which i'm suprised they haven't already posted the rules as this is the first "official unearth card" spoiled by the R&D fellas and MaRo broken exalted as soon as the ability was shown.
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I will note that it seems like Turn to Mist and Momentary Blink would work with this mechanic pretty well. As both of those actually remove the creature from the game. So Turn to Mist could be a great combo card with these creatures.
I don't think it works that way. They cause the creature to be removed from the game, then returned, but that still counts as leaving play. As such, the pesky little replacement effect of Unearth means that the "remove and return" effect gets replaced with a far less sexy "remove never to be seen again."
I don't think it works that way. They cause the creature to be removed from the game, then returned, but that still counts as leaving play. As such, the pesky little replacement effect of Unearth means that the "remove and return" effect gets replaced with a far less sexy "remove never to be seen again."
How does the replacement effect dictate that they dont come back? Turn to mist brings them back, it interacts with them while RFG, which is exactly what they'll be. And it was Turn to Mist that put it there, same with Blink.
Think about Delay vs Flashback. This is the same idea. And it even says in the rulings:
5/1/2007 If the spell targeted by Delay was played with flashback, Delay's effect will remove it from the game, not the flashback effect. The card will get time counters and gain suspend (if it didn't already have suspend).
Its the same here, Mist removes the creature from the game, not the Unearth effect. And just like Delay adds the counters, Mist will put the creature back into play EoT.
How does the replacement effect dictate that they dont come back? Turn to mist brings them back, it interacts with them while RFG, which is exactly what they'll be. And it was Turn to Mist that put it there, same with Blink.
Think about Delay vs Flashback. This is the same idea. And it even says in the rulings:
Its the same here, Mist removes the creature from the game, not the Unearth effect. And just like Delay adds the counters, Mist will put the creature back into play EoT.
Doesn't work.
The creature would leave play, so the Unearth clause triggers and the creature is removed from the game by the Unearth effect, not the Turn into Mist... it would be like saying a creature targeted by Turn into Mist returns to play if its removed by Unmake in response.
The creature would leave play, so the Unearth clause triggers and the creature is removed from the game by the Unearth effect, not the Turn into Mist... it would be like saying a creature targeted by Turn into Mist returns to play if its removed by Unmake in response.
Then you tell me why Delay - Flashback works and this doesnt. Because the spell would leave the stack, thus Flashback triggers and its removed from the game. Flashback has the same clause that Unearth does.
And about Unmaking... your logic doesnt make any sense. Because that is no where near the same scenario. The game would counter Turn to Mist upon trying to resolve.
Then you tell me why Delay - Flashback works and this doesnt. Because the spell would leave the stack, thus Flashback triggers and its removed from the game. Flashback has the same clause that Unearth does.
And about Unmaking... your logic doesnt make any sense. Because that is no where near the same scenario. The game would counter Turn to Mist upon trying to resolve.
My logic makes perfect sense: it was just a bad example, though.
A flashbacked spell survives a delay because it doesn't have a "If this spell would leave the stack, remove it from the game." trigger or anything of the sort.
It has instructions: Play this spell, then remove it from the game. Do remember that the last part of playing a spell is putting it in the graveyard after it resolves.
Delay intervenes during the playing part - it removes it from the game on its own and when it eventually gets played after the suspension, it is played in a nonflashback kind of way. When the game tries to remove it from the game as per the flashback instructions, it can't because its no longer there.
In this case, it would be like Evoke and Boomerang - the evoked creature sacrifice trigger is there but it gets returned before that happens.
Unearth is a whole other deal. It's a replacement effect (in part, the "remove from the game at EOT" is triggered though), not a trigger like removing a flashbacked spell after its cast or sacrificing an evoked creature after it hits play.
It says "If this would leave play, remove it from the game." Turn Into Mist tries to make it leave play. The card says "No. I'm removing myself from the game instead, my way."
My logic makes perfect sense: it was just a bad example, though.
A flashbacked spell survives a delay because it doesn't have a "If this spell would leave the stack, remove it from the game." trigger or anything of the sort.
It has instructions: Play this spell, then remove it from the game. Do remember that the last part of playing a spell is putting it in the graveyard after it resolves.
Delay intervenes during the playing part - it removes it from the game on its own and when it eventually gets played after the suspension, it is played in a nonflashback kind of way. When the game tries to remove it from the game as per the flashback instructions, it can't because its no longer there.
In this case, it would be like Evoke and Boomerang - the evoked creature sacrifice trigger is there but it gets returned before that happens.
Unearth is a whole other deal. It's a replacement effect (in part, the "remove from the game at EOT" is triggered though), not a trigger like removing a flashbacked spell after its cast or sacrificing an evoked creature after it hits play.
It says "If this would leave play, remove it from the game." Turn Into Mist tries to make it leave play. The card says "No. I'm removing myself from the game instead, my way."
Your logic is flawed because you seem to think that a triggered ability can resolve during the middle of a spell. And because while missing the "Whenever" word its a triggered ability.
Also:
502.22. Flashback
502.22a Flashback appears on some instants and sorceries. It represents two static abilities: one functions while the card is in a player's graveyard and the other functions while the card is on the stack. "Flashback [cost]" means "You may play this card from your graveyard by paying [cost] rather than paying its mana cost" and "If the flashback cost was paid, remove this card from the game instead of putting it anywhere else any time it would leave the stack." Playing a spell using its flashback ability follows the rules for paying alternative costs in rules 409.1b and 409.1f-h.
See, flashback has the exact same thing. Unearth says remove it from the game if it would leave play. Flashback says remove it from the game if it would leave the stack. Same exact thing. if you take into account ones a creature, ones an instant...
I wasn't aware of the full ruling of the second part of the Flashback ability.
Still, we would need to get the official ruling on this one to sort it out.
i thought that might be the problem. Reading Flashback on the card and in the rules are slightly different.
I agree with we do need the official ruling. But looking at Flashback, it looks pretty good that Mist and Blink will interact with it pretty well. Not that it would be overly powerful really. Its the same thing people were saying about Evoke.
i thought that might be the problem. Reading Flashback on the card and in the rules are slightly different.
I agree with we do need the official ruling. But looking at Flashback, it looks pretty good that Mist and Blink will interact with it pretty well. Not that it would be overly powerful really. Its the same thing people were saying about Evoke.
No. Really dude. Is there something difficult to understand about the line "Remove it from the game at end of turn or if it would leave play."
The official ruling you're after is RIGHT THERE ON THE CARD. Blink/Mist makes the card...leave play...
Anyways, they made a really cool ability decidedly less cool. It's still good enough to use, if the cards are there, but I think it'l lbe a lot harder to build a whole deck around it. Corpse Connoiseur seems really good, but only if the Unearth creatures are worth it.
They should make something that puts RFGd cards into your graveyard, god damn it.
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My one final rant on this... overall unearth is just OK now could find a place in an extended dredge deck. (Too bad they dont ever fill sets with older abilities randomly like dredge would have nice synergy with this mechanic, that is what was great about future sight)
It just irritates me that they stopped a good combo because it might make unearth recurable. Two card combos are pretty easy to stop by eliminating one half of the combo. I like to see new cards more viable in older formats it keeps the game constantly changing, it also makes new sets interesting. BTW Ichorid is not too powerful, its fair. its easy for your oponent to plan around it and deal with it.
power level in my opinion is not a reason for not printing a card (or a card the wyay it should be unless its uterly broken). I am personally a fan of restricted lists (not banned) in every format makes the game more dynamic and fun. They should make a card with the intention of restricting it when they release it. It allows more powerful cards in lower quantities which generally provides a balance.
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The phrase is the following:
Remove ~ at the end of turn or IF THE CREATURE WOULD LEAVE PLAY.
you wont beable to sac it or blink it nothing. It is gone. Wizards took a good ability and gimped it for no reason
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But I think that if there are enough good unearth cards, a deck with Oona's Prowler and Corpse Connaseur (hard word to spell) could have some some potential to be fun.
I don't expect it to be a tier - one mechanic.
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They always have reasons for doing things. It could be during playtesting there was some awesome combo that made that clause needed.
EDIT: oh yeah, Chris, you can still sacrifice a Unearth'd creature.
We DON'T want another ichorid.
Or more than that.
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By the way corpse dance used to be a good card back in the day I used to recur Ravenous Baloth with it in extended in old rock and laugh at goblin decks.
Once you start gaining 4 life a turn or more as you buy it back more and more they can't keep up especially since you can attack or block with it first.
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I don't think it works that way. They cause the creature to be removed from the game, then returned, but that still counts as leaving play. As such, the pesky little replacement effect of Unearth means that the "remove and return" effect gets replaced with a far less sexy "remove never to be seen again."
And, of course, Riftsweeper and Pull from Eternity are in the wrong colors (and not actually Standard-legal) XP.
How does the replacement effect dictate that they dont come back? Turn to mist brings them back, it interacts with them while RFG, which is exactly what they'll be. And it was Turn to Mist that put it there, same with Blink.
Think about Delay vs Flashback. This is the same idea. And it even says in the rulings:
Its the same here, Mist removes the creature from the game, not the Unearth effect. And just like Delay adds the counters, Mist will put the creature back into play EoT.
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Thats what i thought of it as.
Doesn't work.
The creature would leave play, so the Unearth clause triggers and the creature is removed from the game by the Unearth effect, not the Turn into Mist... it would be like saying a creature targeted by Turn into Mist returns to play if its removed by Unmake in response.
Then you tell me why Delay - Flashback works and this doesnt. Because the spell would leave the stack, thus Flashback triggers and its removed from the game. Flashback has the same clause that Unearth does.
And about Unmaking... your logic doesnt make any sense. Because that is no where near the same scenario. The game would counter Turn to Mist upon trying to resolve.
My logic makes perfect sense: it was just a bad example, though.
A flashbacked spell survives a delay because it doesn't have a "If this spell would leave the stack, remove it from the game." trigger or anything of the sort.
It has instructions: Play this spell, then remove it from the game. Do remember that the last part of playing a spell is putting it in the graveyard after it resolves.
Delay intervenes during the playing part - it removes it from the game on its own and when it eventually gets played after the suspension, it is played in a nonflashback kind of way. When the game tries to remove it from the game as per the flashback instructions, it can't because its no longer there.
In this case, it would be like Evoke and Boomerang - the evoked creature sacrifice trigger is there but it gets returned before that happens.
Unearth is a whole other deal. It's a replacement effect (in part, the "remove from the game at EOT" is triggered though), not a trigger like removing a flashbacked spell after its cast or sacrificing an evoked creature after it hits play.
It says "If this would leave play, remove it from the game." Turn Into Mist tries to make it leave play. The card says "No. I'm removing myself from the game instead, my way."
Your logic is flawed because you seem to think that a triggered ability can resolve during the middle of a spell. And because while missing the "Whenever" word its a triggered ability.
Also:
See, flashback has the exact same thing. Unearth says remove it from the game if it would leave play. Flashback says remove it from the game if it would leave the stack. Same exact thing. if you take into account ones a creature, ones an instant...
Still, we would need to get the official ruling on this one to sort it out.
i thought that might be the problem. Reading Flashback on the card and in the rules are slightly different.
I agree with we do need the official ruling. But looking at Flashback, it looks pretty good that Mist and Blink will interact with it pretty well. Not that it would be overly powerful really. Its the same thing people were saying about Evoke.
No. Really dude. Is there something difficult to understand about the line "Remove it from the game at end of turn or if it would leave play."
The official ruling you're after is RIGHT THERE ON THE CARD. Blink/Mist makes the card...leave play...
Really.
Simple.
Anyways, they made a really cool ability decidedly less cool. It's still good enough to use, if the cards are there, but I think it'l lbe a lot harder to build a whole deck around it. Corpse Connoiseur seems really good, but only if the Unearth creatures are worth it.
They should make something that puts RFGd cards into your graveyard, god damn it.
In some sense. The only good fnord is a dead fnord.
But somehow I don't think that it is what you are looking for. There may be something else, but nothing comes to mind.
It just irritates me that they stopped a good combo because it might make unearth recurable. Two card combos are pretty easy to stop by eliminating one half of the combo. I like to see new cards more viable in older formats it keeps the game constantly changing, it also makes new sets interesting. BTW Ichorid is not too powerful, its fair. its easy for your oponent to plan around it and deal with it.
power level in my opinion is not a reason for not printing a card (or a card the wyay it should be unless its uterly broken). I am personally a fan of restricted lists (not banned) in every format makes the game more dynamic and fun. They should make a card with the intention of restricting it when they release it. It allows more powerful cards in lower quantities which generally provides a balance.
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