I really don't understand why people think the Swans are so good. They die to almost every black removal spell in the set. I don't know what kind of combo you guys are looking for but these guys are just horrible in my opinion. If you're going to play Blue/White play control not a bad combo.
Actually...
You are right, it dies to black removal.
That is what makes it good.
It only dies to black removal =)
I like how the main argument of people who say swan sucks is they think the whole deck revolves around the swan, while this may be the case for some combos (not pointing any fingers here), the majority of decks that want to run swan do not NEED swan to do just fine. Various iterations of red/blue burn-control and red/blue aggro-control want to run the "Big Bird" as an evasion beater w/ counter and burn as a means to not only DISRUPT the opponent, but as a means of card advantage.
Strictly speaking you are analyzing the deck given optimal ADVANTAGE for the decks poor match-ups, while giving optimal DISADVANTAGE to the decks which run the "Big Bird."
Birds is not format defining, but it is a good creature. Can someone for the love of all that is holy post some match results against popular tier 1 Standard decks to shut these nay-sayers up?
Seems like agro is going have a tough time against all that board sweep, huh?
As for 'lulz i countered ur swanz pwndomg u noob' last time i checked Glittering Wish will fetch this nice little card called 'Vexing Shusher' which sits as a four of in sideboard.
Does not matter every card is crap around here until some pro wins a tournament with it than it is the next best thing since sliced bread. Repeat with each set.
This is a good example of the thinking that leads people to think Swans are good. With another card, sure, they can be good. But what if you only draw the other card (which, like Seismic Assault and Fatal Attraction, is probably unplayable on its own) and not the Swans, or the Swans and not the other card? Instant Lose. Just play a good deck with good cards.
I just realized that I should actually be playing up the Swans so that I can dump them quick when their price is inflated, so I'll be leaving now. They're actually great, format-defining even, so I won't let them go for less than a Tarmagoyf a piece, because they're worth it. Really.
Good point. I'll take those horrible Flash and Protean Hulk cards out of my Vintage deck then, and replace them with cards that aren't unplayable without their complement card, like Tarmogoyf and Counterspell.
/sigh, Not this reasoning again. Mogg Fanatic dies to all black removal but it's still one of the best one-drops in standard.Tarmogoyf dies to all black removal but its still the best creature, ever.
Swans is part of a fantastic combo, one that allows you to draw through your deck then Conflagrate your opponent for 20.
EDIT: Not sure if that combo is the best, but its the only one I could think of right now.
Tarmogoyf is number 2, sorry.
Number 1 goes to Sir Bob.. Miles in front - he's outstanding on turn 1 (when Goyf is a 1/2) or turn 17 (when a 5/6 just won't cut it).
3, 4 and 5 probably go to Goblin Welder, Goblin Lackey and Psychatog, in that order, although a case can certainly be made for Golgari Grave-Troll.
Swans + Chain of Plasma is an efficient 2-card I-Win combo to consider in Extended. But as you won't be able to play everything on one turn often, it'll probably end up like Niv-Mizzet & Curiosity - a casual powerhouse that sucks in tournaments.
Good point. I'll take those horrible Flash and Protean Hulk cards out of my Vintage deck then, and replace them with cards that aren't unplayable without their complement card, like Tarmogoyf and Counterspell.
(FFS)
That combo wins the game. There's a significant, significant difference. Show me a 2-card combo with Swans that actually wins the game and then we can start talking about whether it's a viable deck.
That combo wins the game. There's a significant, significant difference. Show me a 2-card combo with Swans that actually wins the game and then we can start talking about whether it's a viable deck.
-E
Uh...wasn't Swans + Chain of Plasma game winning?
Hell, Erratic Explosion + Draco got played competitively, why not Swans + Chain? Cephalid Breakfast operates on Shuko + Cephalid Illusionist (or en-Kor + Illusionist, and you had to resolve both spells, and neither card did anything by itself) and is a very competitive deck. 2 card combos just have too much potential for an "I Win" for people to not to try and exploit them.
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People have been drawing analogs to Vintage combo decks as justification for why this card is good in standard. I won't argue extended - I think a decent deck could be made of Swans/Chains (at least one that should be explored).
Again the key difference between Swans/Chains and Swans + Burn It a Lot is that Swans/Chains wins the game. The other just draws lots of cards - you still have to have a deck that does something other than pyroclasm and sulfurous blast.
Play Swans than play chains on it (2 card combo). Draw almost your whole deck (you need to have a few cards on top otherwise you deck yourself) with repeated chains on the swan. Discard any drawn spirit guides, play out the remaining chrome moxes, rite of flames, manamorphoses. You should have a storm count nearing 10 and at least 6 red mana in the pool. Play 3x grapeshot to deal about 30 damage to the opponent.
There you go, and that finish is made with the assumption that you used up some acceleration/burn in your hand and that some of them could sit in the last 2 cards. The deck is probably capable for dealing even more damage, with stuff like seething songs and playing out more burn spells before the grapeshot but I wanted to show a bit more "conservative" win.
There's a big difference between "Draw out your entire combo deck" and "Draw a bunch of extra cards sometimes".
Right, which just means that Swans doesn't have to be a type 2 card. That didn't stop new cards like Thorn of Amethyst and Street Wraith to start working immediately in older formats, and pimped out versions of those cards (along with Ponder, etc) all fetch a fairly high price.
Maybe some cards just aren't designed for standard, but to say it "sucks" is quite wrong. No card "truly" sucks, they only become bad when put into certain environments. Draco Explosion certainly won't be good when shock and fetches aren't in the formats (where 16 damage can pretty much kill someone straight up). Swans might not be most optimal in standard, but that just means it isn't right for the format.
I am certainly excited to get something to play with that can potentially draw through my deck with just 2 cards. Who cares if it isn't standard/block? Last time I checked, there were 3 other formats offered by Wizards. To say that something is just horrible, and then give the "oh, but I only deal with standard" is shortsighted. Who knows, maybe one day they print something else that combos with Swans and both of those cards will exist in standard at the same time.
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Play Swans than play chains on it (2 card combo). Draw almost your whole deck (you need to have a few cards on top otherwise you deck yourself) with repeated chains on the swan. Discard any drawn spirit guides, play out the remaining chrome moxes, rite of flames, manamorphoses (watch for decking), etc. You should have a storm count nearing 10 and at least 6 red mana in the pool. Play 3x grapeshot to deal about 30 damage to the opponent.
There you go, and that finish is made with the assumption that you used up some acceleration/burn in your hand and that some of them could sit in the last 2 cards. The deck is probably capable for dealing even more damage, with stuff like seething songs and playing out more burn spells before the grapeshot but I wanted to show a bit more "conservative" win.
You don't even need to go through all this. Swans + Chain of Plasma is game on its own; burn the swans until you have 8-10 cards in hand and begin re-directing the Chain of Plasma copies to the dome.
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I don't have any hard numbers on this, but I'm targeted more often than a black guy driving a beat-up sedan with a broken tail-light and no license plate, and Cy's well aware of that.
I don't have any hard numbers on this, but I'm targeted more often than a black guy driving a beat-up sedan with a broken tail-light and no license plate, and Cy's well aware of that.
Right, which just means that Swans doesn't have to be a type 2 card. That didn't stop new cards like Thorn of Amethyst and Street Wraith to start working immediately in older formats, and pimped out versions of those cards (along with Ponder, etc) all fetch a fairly high price.
Maybe some cards just aren't designed for standard, but to say it "sucks" is quite wrong. No card "truly" sucks, they only become bad when put into certain environments. Draco Explosion certainly won't be good when shock and fetches aren't in the formats (where 16 damage can pretty much kill someone straight up). Swans might not be most optimal in standard, but that just means it isn't right for the format.
I am certainly excited to get something to play with that can potentially draw through my deck with just 2 cards. Who cares if it isn't standard/block? Last time I checked, there were 3 other formats offered by Wizards. To say that something is just horrible, and then give the "oh, but I only deal with standard" is shortsighted. Who knows, maybe one day they print something else that combos with Swans and both of those cards will exist in standard at the same time.
Dude, the thread's been about the card's value in Standard constructed Magic. Reiterating something assumed in the terms of the discussion isn't an argument.
1) Swans are harder to kill than most creatures
2) Casting chains is cheap, and leaves you with counter mana open
3) Even if you tapped out, this deck loves Pact of Negation
The Fried Chicken combo is reasonably difficult to disrupt.
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Actually...
You are right, it dies to black removal.
That is what makes it good.
It only dies to black removal =)
Capice?
Tell me the top 3 decks in standard (Warrior Aggro, Reveillark, Faeries) and then tell me which one plays red removal....
Now tell me which ones play black removal/counterspell/bounce....
Good job!
*Edit: Don't talk to me about extended. I know nothing about the format. I've only been around for a yr playing magic. The Plasma Swans may be good. I have no idea. I'm strictly talking standard as you can tell by my comment.
The reason why this card is bad in standard is because it's outclassed by cards like Reveillark. An evasive 4/3 beater that CAN net you cards is not as good as a 4/3 beater that WILL net you two creatures or 4 damage to the face. Reveillark is guarenteed card advantage. Swans not so much. Decks built around Swans, even if they don't depend on Swans, won't be able to beat decks like Reveillark (Life gain with Riftwatcher) and Faerie (counterspell/Scion of Oona stupidity).
Also, on the off chance that you don't have counters/pact to protect the combo, and they have mana open and you're smelling a kill spell, just toss some random burn at the Swan before going off.
If they try to kill the swan in response, respond to the kill spell by going off.
If they don't, then draw a fist full of cards, find a counter/pact, and proceed to go off.
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If God spoke to you, and commanded you to kill your own children, would you do it?
If your answer is "No," then your morality does not come from God's commandments.
If your answer is "Yes," then please, please reconsider.
Note that these type of arguments can bet quite retarded with "I have an answer - I have a counter answer".
If you play the Swan in extended chances are you are playing blue and that color has plenty of ways to counter any removal. Add to it that the swans is actually pretty hard to kill at instant speed: burn only draws the opponent cards. Stuff like Mortify still work but a 3 mana spell is really not that hard to counter and is quite predictable too....
Edit: Sarnathed
The ultimate end of the arguments though is whether the metagame can easily shift to hate such a deck out of the format - in other words, how vulnerable it is. There are at least 3 split second spells that shut the combo down (Sudden Death, Sudden Spoiling, Wipe Away). Add to that that without mana acceleration, the combo goes off at best on turn 5 and it doesn't look very strong.
The ultimate end of the arguments though is whether the metagame can easily shift to hate such a deck out of the format - in other words, how vulnerable it is. There are at least 2 split second spells that shut the combo down (Sudden Death, Sudden Spoiling). Add to that that without mana acceleration, the combo goes off at best on turn 5 and it doesn't look very strong.
-E
Er, Snapback doesn't have split second?
Edit: Wow, ninja edited right as I was replying. Anyways, I don't think the existence of a couple of double black cards that can undercut you is a big deal. All combos have to live with potential hate...many are hosed by the much more commonly played, easily splashed Extirpate, for example.
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If God spoke to you, and commanded you to kill your own children, would you do it?
If your answer is "No," then your morality does not come from God's commandments.
If your answer is "Yes," then please, please reconsider.
In T2 it can be hated out the same way Reveilark can with Extirpate: it would hurt but it would not cripple the deck. There will still be a huge part of it that you would have to deal with, and against that part of the deck those cards seem pretty sub optimal.
In type 2 you hate it out by playing Nameless Inversion, O-Ring, Profane Command, etc. It's easily neutralized by cards that are already played heavily.
i am thinking swans MIGHT have a deck to go in. not sure yet. the chains and swans combo will need plenty of acceleration to race decks like TEPS and dredge. it's also pretty vulnerable to disruption cards like duress and counterbalance decks. It's kind of early to tell. As for standard... blah
In the former those are pretty weak SB options vs everything else so swan must be utterly dominating to be packing those, and even than it is not a surefire win :the deck could very well burn you out without going off with the swan.
In T2 it can be hated out the same way Reveilark can with Extirpate: it would hurt but it would not cripple the deck. There will still be a huge part of it that you would have to deal with, and against that part of the deck those cards seem pretty sub optimal.
Edit: there is good playable acceleration for both formats for this deck: spirit guides, rites. moxes for the extended mind stone for T2
Okay and this is where I'm going to sound like a typical spike but... when you say "It would hurt but not cripple the deck", what deck are you talking about? What viable deck does this slide into to improve? As I said, Reveillark fit into the T2 blink deck, who's been running counter-burn or RW burn? It could very well be that by the time Shadowmoor block's all said and done, those decks are viable, but I don't think they'll become viable BECAUSE of Swans.
Sorry but this combo is still horrible. Good luck getting the mana for Seismic Assault and Swans. You'll have fun doing that I'm sure.
Mogg Fanatic is good cause it gets sacked to deal 1 damage. Tarmogoyf is good ccause its an efficient beater for two mana
Swans on the other hand are a key to a really bad combo deck that can't go off before turn 4. And that's on the good draw. And without the swans the deck is nigh pointless.
Go ahead and lay your swans down on turn 4. Faerie decks will counter it and then do the last points of damage on turn 5. Aggro will beat you down before you can go off. Dragonstorm was a good combo deck. This, on the other hand, sucks. Period
And also the reason D-storm was good was because it went off consistently early. And if it didn't it had a Plan B aka play Hellkite. What does this deck do besides play Seismic or Swans? Try and win with a 4/3 flyer. I dare you
You should really wait until the set is out and the card is tested before arguing about it, until then this argument has nothing solid to back it up.
Saying a card sucks before playing it is like saying Tarmogoyf is horrible because it dies to terror.
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Actually...
You are right, it dies to black removal.
That is what makes it good.
It only dies to black removal =)
Capice?
Strictly speaking you are analyzing the deck given optimal ADVANTAGE for the decks poor match-ups, while giving optimal DISADVANTAGE to the decks which run the "Big Bird."
Birds is not format defining, but it is a good creature. Can someone for the love of all that is holy post some match results against popular tier 1 Standard decks to shut these nay-sayers up?
Oh wait. We're about to enter an agro environment.
Oh wait again. Swans decks play cards like
Pyroclasm
Firesprout
Sulfurous Blast
Seems like agro is going have a tough time against all that board sweep, huh?
As for 'lulz i countered ur swanz pwndomg u noob' last time i checked Glittering Wish will fetch this nice little card called 'Vexing Shusher' which sits as a four of in sideboard.
Sigh. I can't wait to say 'I told you so'.
The sort of card that people try to play and then lose when their opponent draws 8 cards and kills them.
This card is getting seriously overrated, your opponent will actually be happy when you cast this thing...
Sounds about right for the most part.
Good point. I'll take those horrible Flash and Protean Hulk cards out of my Vintage deck then, and replace them with cards that aren't unplayable without their complement card, like Tarmogoyf and Counterspell.
Tarmogoyf is number 2, sorry.
Number 1 goes to Sir Bob.. Miles in front - he's outstanding on turn 1 (when Goyf is a 1/2) or turn 17 (when a 5/6 just won't cut it).
3, 4 and 5 probably go to Goblin Welder, Goblin Lackey and Psychatog, in that order, although a case can certainly be made for Golgari Grave-Troll.
(FFS)
That combo wins the game. There's a significant, significant difference. Show me a 2-card combo with Swans that actually wins the game and then we can start talking about whether it's a viable deck.
-E
Uh...wasn't Swans + Chain of Plasma game winning?
Hell, Erratic Explosion + Draco got played competitively, why not Swans + Chain? Cephalid Breakfast operates on Shuko + Cephalid Illusionist (or en-Kor + Illusionist, and you had to resolve both spells, and neither card did anything by itself) and is a very competitive deck. 2 card combos just have too much potential for an "I Win" for people to not to try and exploit them.
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People have been drawing analogs to Vintage combo decks as justification for why this card is good in standard. I won't argue extended - I think a decent deck could be made of Swans/Chains (at least one that should be explored).
Again the key difference between Swans/Chains and Swans + Burn It a Lot is that Swans/Chains wins the game. The other just draws lots of cards - you still have to have a deck that does something other than pyroclasm and sulfurous blast.
There's a big difference between "Draw out your entire combo deck" and "Draw a bunch of extra cards sometimes".
-E
Maybe some cards just aren't designed for standard, but to say it "sucks" is quite wrong. No card "truly" sucks, they only become bad when put into certain environments. Draco Explosion certainly won't be good when shock and fetches aren't in the formats (where 16 damage can pretty much kill someone straight up). Swans might not be most optimal in standard, but that just means it isn't right for the format.
I am certainly excited to get something to play with that can potentially draw through my deck with just 2 cards. Who cares if it isn't standard/block? Last time I checked, there were 3 other formats offered by Wizards. To say that something is just horrible, and then give the "oh, but I only deal with standard" is shortsighted. Who knows, maybe one day they print something else that combos with Swans and both of those cards will exist in standard at the same time.
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You don't even need to go through all this. Swans + Chain of Plasma is game on its own; burn the swans until you have 8-10 cards in hand and begin re-directing the Chain of Plasma copies to the dome.
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Whoops. You're right; I misread the card.
Reading FTW. >_>
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Dude, the thread's been about the card's value in Standard constructed Magic. Reiterating something assumed in the terms of the discussion isn't an argument.
-E
"In response, I kill it"
Nonsense.
1) Swans are harder to kill than most creatures
2) Casting chains is cheap, and leaves you with counter mana open
3) Even if you tapped out, this deck loves Pact of Negation
The Fried Chicken combo is reasonably difficult to disrupt.
If your answer is "No," then your morality does not come from God's commandments.
If your answer is "Yes," then please, please reconsider.
Tell me the top 3 decks in standard (Warrior Aggro, Reveillark, Faeries) and then tell me which one plays red removal....
Now tell me which ones play black removal/counterspell/bounce....
Good job!
*Edit: Don't talk to me about extended. I know nothing about the format. I've only been around for a yr playing magic. The Plasma Swans may be good. I have no idea. I'm strictly talking standard as you can tell by my comment.
The reason why this card is bad in standard is because it's outclassed by cards like Reveillark. An evasive 4/3 beater that CAN net you cards is not as good as a 4/3 beater that WILL net you two creatures or 4 damage to the face. Reveillark is guarenteed card advantage. Swans not so much. Decks built around Swans, even if they don't depend on Swans, won't be able to beat decks like Reveillark (Life gain with Riftwatcher) and Faerie (counterspell/Scion of Oona stupidity).
If they try to kill the swan in response, respond to the kill spell by going off.
If they don't, then draw a fist full of cards, find a counter/pact, and proceed to go off.
If your answer is "No," then your morality does not come from God's commandments.
If your answer is "Yes," then please, please reconsider.
The ultimate end of the arguments though is whether the metagame can easily shift to hate such a deck out of the format - in other words, how vulnerable it is. There are at least 3 split second spells that shut the combo down (Sudden Death, Sudden Spoiling, Wipe Away). Add to that that without mana acceleration, the combo goes off at best on turn 5 and it doesn't look very strong.
-E
Er, Snapback doesn't have split second?
Edit: Wow, ninja edited right as I was replying. Anyways, I don't think the existence of a couple of double black cards that can undercut you is a big deal. All combos have to live with potential hate...many are hosed by the much more commonly played, easily splashed Extirpate, for example.
If your answer is "No," then your morality does not come from God's commandments.
If your answer is "Yes," then please, please reconsider.
In type 2 you hate it out by playing Nameless Inversion, O-Ring, Profane Command, etc. It's easily neutralized by cards that are already played heavily.
Okay and this is where I'm going to sound like a typical spike but... when you say "It would hurt but not cripple the deck", what deck are you talking about? What viable deck does this slide into to improve? As I said, Reveillark fit into the T2 blink deck, who's been running counter-burn or RW burn? It could very well be that by the time Shadowmoor block's all said and done, those decks are viable, but I don't think they'll become viable BECAUSE of Swans.
This is sounding an awful lot like Dovescape and Brion Stoutarm, guys...
-E
You should really wait until the set is out and the card is tested before arguing about it, until then this argument has nothing solid to back it up.
Saying a card sucks before playing it is like saying Tarmogoyf is horrible because it dies to terror.