I don't think it's the fact that the Kithkin are a new race that hasn't had a sufficient amount of support over several blocks to introduce as a major block theme. Or even, really, any new race. The flamekin, for example, are a new race that is elegant, passionate and beautiful. I doubt anyone would complain if flamekin were continued to be used outside of Lorwyn for the rest of magic's history. Of course, they are really just elementals.
What white needs is something that can be iconically White. It seems like they just kind of looked at White in the sense that it's community-oriented and made... the halfing archetype. But compare this to Elves for example. The Elven archetype is typically as tall as humans, especially beautiful and wise, tend to be immortal or at least long-lived, have an affinity and sometimes resistance to magic, and of course are strongly associated with nature. All of these themes make them a naturally easy race to become iconic in their color - Green. Kithkin at their best are short, unattractive, superstitious, not particularly long-lived, and only real fantasy feature is thoughtweft (though this is excellent, admittedly). What White really wants for an iconic race is another tall, beautiful, and wise race. But that is different from Elves, and distinguishable from humans. I personally prefer the idea of a holy, celestial, light-based race of White creatures. Maybe some supernatural themes along the lines of rapid healing and natural defenses to magic. Something that can evoke respect and awe, which the kithkin don't.
What White really wants for an iconic race is another tall, beautiful, and wise race. But that is different from Elves, and distinguishable from humans. I personally prefer the idea of a holy, celestial, light-based race of White creatures. Maybe some supernatural themes along the lines of rapid healing and natural defenses to magic. Something that can evoke respect and awe, which the kithkin don't.
Uhhh.
You realize you just described angels, right?
Personally, I always liked the aven. Maybe it's just because I started playing Magic during Odyssey block.
I have no particular hatred for the kithkin. In fact, I'm pretty happy that they really did try to differentiate them from hobbits, and I hope there will be more kithkin in the future.
This is the best thread ever. Nothing beats opening up the new card discussion to find people blasting the art of kithkin. Rather than discussing stuff such as sleeper hits and ways to break various cards, we are yelling about some ugly little midgets. I love this thread so much.
Personally, I don't dislike the kithkin art. I don't like it, but I don't hate it. I do feel like they were radically different than how they were portrayed in TS, and its definitely not my favorite art. I think that they should have stayed with the TS style art. However, Wizards probably thought "Its just not a fantasy world without tiny people. What? No; screw dwarves. We need a new race. Something silly sounding that has little to no support outside this block. And it has to be kinda cute in an ugly sort of way." I guess if they had gone with Dwarves, they wouldn't really be able to do giants, since both occupy the R/W color slots. I realize that Dwarves could be W/r and Giants R/w, but still. Besides, kithkin are essentially W/W anyway; they could have just made W dwarves and said "Screw it. No red dwarves." Oh Wizards... You entertain me so...
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As my good friend Jesse put it, "When life gives you lemons, combo break them and get them banned."
He doesn't like lemonade...
Personally, I always liked the aven. Maybe it's just because I started playing Magic during Odyssey block.
I have no particular hatred for the kithkin. In fact, I'm pretty happy that they really did try to differentiate them from hobbits, and I hope there will be more kithkin in the future.
Not really. Angels are big fat 4/4 monstrosities. Elves are rarely even 3/3.
But I probably could have been more specific - white needs an iconic small angelic race to go with its big iconic angelic race.
Personally, I don't dislike the kithkin art. I don't like it, but I don't hate it. I do feel like they were radically different than how they were portrayed in TS, and its definitely not my favorite art. I think that they should have stayed with the TS style art. However, Wizards probably thought "Its just not a fantasy world without tiny people. What? No; screw dwarves. We need a new race. Something silly sounding that has little to no support outside this block. And it has to be kinda cute in an ugly sort of way."
Jolie-laide, perhaps?
Never did like Steve Buscemi. Especially weirded out picturing him as a kithkin.
Birds have never been a white-centric race. Since Homelands they used to be falcons but now they;ve changed it to include Falcons as a bird. Therefore Birds have been in either white or blue, with the one exception.
What White really wants for an iconic race is another tall, beautiful, and wise race. But that is different from Elves, and distinguishable from humans.
Maybe I missed it, but why? Why do they have to be tall, beautiful, and wise? Hell, even elves don't have to be that way (though a short elf would look funny).
I personally prefer the idea of a holy, celestial, light-based race of White creatures. Maybe some supernatural themes along the lines of rapid healing and natural defenses to magic. Something that can evoke respect and awe, which the kithkin don't.
Ew, no. Holy and celestial relate too well to a concept of "good," something that MaRo tried to state was not implicit in the color, just as "evil" is not the base description for Black. White needs a race that cares about community (Kithkin, check), harmony (I'd suggest the thoughtweft), and peace (which isn't quite so much a Kithkin trait, though they don't seem to want to go out and kill like the elves do). Peace is the one that will have the least place in Magic, because Magic is a game about conflict. We don't need mini-angels. Angels are very boring and static, until they go nutso like Radiant apparently did.
MaRo lists a number of words White cares about.
Order Purity Religion Civilization Structure Law Honor Construction Morality Politics Courage Optimism Defense Strategy Chivalry Loyalty Cooperation Military Self-sacrifice Honesty Light Organization Community Medicine
I think the Kithkin fall into a number of those. But I guess I'm one of the few who like the Kithkin. They're amusing, and I like the art with them. More importantly, I like their cards, and do plan on building a Kithkin deck.
Maybe I missed it, but why? Why do they have to be tall, beautiful, and wise? Hell, even elves don't have to be that way (though a short elf would look funny).
Ew, no. Holy and celestial relate too well to a concept of "good," something that MaRo tried to state was not implicit in the color, just as "evil" is not the base description for Black. White needs a race that cares about community (Kithkin, check), harmony (I'd suggest the thoughtweft), and peace (which isn't quite so much a Kithkin trait, though they don't seem to want to go out and kill like the elves do). Peace is the one that will have the least place in Magic, because Magic is a game about conflict. We don't need mini-angels. Angels are very boring and static, until they go nutso like Radiant apparently did.
MaRo lists a number of words White cares about.
I think the Kithkin fall into a number of those. But I guess I'm one of the few who like the Kithkin. They're amusing, and I like the art with them. More importantly, I like their cards, and do plan on building a Kithkin deck.
QFT. Couldn't have better said myself.
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Wow. Four extra cards gives us permission to over-extend a race that has yet to establish itself as a race in white? Ok, so in that case we can expect more Antelopes and Anteaters in Shadowmoor? There's only two, but by that mindset it gives us a definite reason to totally go nuts on the race even though there are no set parametres that sets themselves up as an iconic white race.
Don't be a smartass. There were only 3 Flamekin before Lorwyn block, and I don't hear you complaining about them. The problem with Kithkin (in your eyes) isn't that they aren't iconic enough, it's that they look weird. So spare me the whining.
White is the wienie color, so a small race makes sence. If your small, you need to be quick-on-your-feet, hence they are very militaristic/stategic. Very white indeed. Some of you may not admitted it, but kithkin are one of the most iconic/representative race in all of magic. Compare to merfolk (not in the in-game way, i.e. tap/untap stuff). The only link to blue I can think of is that the are fish people. Their agressive/military aspect is more white than blue (yes military requires brains/thinking [a blue thing], but strategy is very white).
I was just doing some thinking... Multiple races tend to have much variety in the way they are portrayed. For example, compare the Elves from across Magic. Skyshroud Elves, Yavimaya Elves (did they exist...?), Onslaught Elves, Mirrodin Elves, Ravnica Elves (two different kinds here: Selesnya Elves(the name escapes me...) and Golgari Devkarin), Time Spiral Elves, and finally Lorwyn Elves. They are all rather different from one another, yet still classified as "Elves." The same goes for other races, such as Birds, Cats, and Goblins. And what about the Vedalken? They were portrayed much differently in Ravnica than they were in Mirrodin.
What is my point, you may ask? The "white iconic race" known as "Human" has failed to see any variance. All Humans are always the same kind of Human, and it actually gets rather boring. Kithkin are a nice change from the Humans that have dominated for so long as their dull, stereotypical selves. Now I'm not a huge fan of Kithkin, but I do appreciate the straying from the norm for a block or two.
Now, this brings to light another question: Why aren't Humans ever portrayed differently in different stories? One could argue that different races (black, Asian, etc.) could be considered different portrayals, but we don't even see those, or we hardly do. (As an aside, I suppose we saw the Asian-type Humans for the Kamigawa block...which makes me wonder if we're just too used to seeing Humans of different races that we just automatically classify them as 'Human' whereas the other races we already have a distinct concept of what they ought to be like, so any variation is noticed immediately...or is that just me?) I can't think of much in the way of variety for Humans, though. Lorwyn added horns to Elves and still called them Elves, but horns added to Humans would probably classify them as at least Mutants, or perhaps Beasts. But why not just Humans? I urge Wizards to add some variety to Humans. Humans in different planes could be just as different as Elves and Vedalken and Cats from different planes.
But anyway, I guess that's enough of my random thoughts...
I do like kithkin, even if I do think they're ugly. Amrou Kithkin was fine; if they'd kept kithkin more like her, I wouldn't mind.
As for the new iconic status of kithkin, I think that's fine. Thoughtweft is white enough to fit. The kithkin are a very united community that defends itself with amazing tactics. To me, they seem like a fine choice for an iconic white race.
Edit: I have no idea why you haven't gotten an infraction for this yet, NecroBlade.
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Amazing banner by Rivenor and classic avvy by PurpleD
How could he ever get an infraction for being SO right?
About the iconic status:
I agree that white's iconis race should be more elegant, more like angels, only less fat 'n stuff. The problem would be that they might become to similar to the elves. Like elves, only with honor instead of love for nature.
White: ...Honorful? Proud. (angels, humans-soldiers/knights 'n stuff, leonin, kitsune) Blue: Clever(wizards, vedalken), tricky(faeries), exploitive(is that a word?; soratami) Black: Sordid, evil et all(practicly everything black) Red: Aggressive(barbarians, beasts, etc.), unthinking(mainly goblins) Green: Either serene(elves) or wild(orochi, beasts 'n stuff)
My problem, white shouldn't be something to make fun of. And Kithkins are.
White's race shouldn't be a race you should be able to laugh about and live. I don't think I even have to tell you what the next sentence would be.
We DO laugh about Kithkin. They're ridiculous. They're laughable.
If White needs an iconic race, I think it should be Leonin. They look awesome, already have many good creatures, and they are practically the definition of white creatures.
Also, it's okay for goblins to be stupid, funny, or laughable. But white shouldn't be funny.
I mean; look at the guy in my sig. Does he look like someone you'd make fun of? No. If you would, he'd wrath you. (Orginally, he'd send in his flying cat to gain some life by hurting you, but you still wouldn't enjoy)
Yes, some Aunties are male. I've read it in one of magicthegathering.com's articles/faq (don't remember which especificaly).
Don't be a smartass. There were only 3 Flamekin before Lorwyn block, and I don't hear you complaining about them. The problem with Kithkin (in your eyes) isn't that they aren't iconic enough, it's that they look weird. So spare me the whining.
-E
Hah. Accusing me of whining. Here you are going off on a rant saying that "oh, gee, they added four new kithkin. That means we can expand it fulllyyyyyyyy!" without any solid grounds to do such a thing. As mentioned before, Kithkin have yet to establish themselves as a viable race without the overflooding in Lorwyn.
Had they made a few Kithkin here and there every few sets then yes, that would have been grounds for doing such a thing. But as it stands, it felt as though the Kithkin were thrown in with such a total lack of planning that they almost don't fit at all in this theme. Before going all out with Kithkin, I'd have gone with something more prominent, like Cats or Gargoyles. Maybe even Wolvenfolk.
To follow-up on Zaphod's comment, White needs a race that's noble, honourbound and stout. Kithkin do not offer this in their current disposition in Lorwyn.
Mind you, had they kept kithkin the same (or identical in nature) as they did with Amrou Kithkin, Amrou Seekers and Amrou Scouts, then perhaps we would be on the right track. But the current creative made them out to be a race that just doesn't fit Kithkin at all.
For Red, I'd have expected Gnomes to take over the Goblin part. Or even go so far as to make Orcs a more prominent race. Orcs have had a severe lack of representation since Weatherlight and if it weren't for Coldsnap and a couple of shots in Time Spiral, they probably would have been forgotten entirely.
Flamekin are not a race of themselves but merely a special type of a race, Elemental. Had they said Creature - Flamekin, then your comment might be valid. But as it stands, Flamekin are your regular elemental. Elementals have been around since day 1 and therefore have a right to establish themselves as a race that is capable to survive and support one another as a sentient tribe. Kithkin, well, do not. At least not under their current disposition.
'buster
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'buster
HR Analyst. Gamer. Activist | Fearless, and forthright | Aggro-control is a mindset. Elspeth and Jhoira rock my world.
Hah. Accusing me of whining. Here you are going off on a rant saying that "oh, gee, they added four new kithkin. That means we can expand it fulllyyyyyyyy!" without any solid grounds to do such a thing. As mentioned before, Kithkin have yet to establish themselves as a viable race without the overflooding in Lorwyn.
Except that they knew they wanted Kithkin to be the white race in Lorwyn when they developed Time Spiral block. This was stated in Forsythe's feature article when he said: "We wanted the Lorwyn tribes to be "prepopulated" in the Standard environment. To that end, Amrou Scout was made a Kithkin, Coral Trickster was made a Merfolk, and Desolation Giant was added to the "timeshifted" cards. Heartwood Storyteller is a Treefolk. Merfolk Looter is in Tenth Edition. Llanowar Mentor and his cycle of friends all make Lorwyn-relevant tokens. Yes, we were working on "Peanut" that far in advance."
While you may disagree, according to whatever policy they're working on now, having 4 of a race establishes it enough to make it a feature race for a set. Considering that Kithkin fit the environment and fit the flavor of the world, I'd say they did a decent job of it without tipping their hand by overpopulating Kithkin in TSP block. If there were 10 to 20 Kithkin in TSP block, I'd say you would have a point about "overflooding". Considering Lorwyn is a tribal block where creature types matter intimately, if a race is picked to be one of those to be included, of course you're going to see a lot of them. You might as well start whining at the sun tomorrow for being so bright.
Now I could accept as a logical basis that you don't feel that 3-4 of a race is enough to raise it to iconic status, not enough to make it worthy of being THE race for a color in a tribal block, but again, you raised no objections to Flamekin, who had, prior to Lorwyn block, only 3 cards in the history of the game. So obviously you're not speaking from an historical precedent, but an emotional, visceral one. You don't like Kithkin. But rather than just stating that and moving on, you feel the need to try and couch your feelings in a poorly worded argument. No wonder it is easily torn to shreds.
They did "expand more on them earlier". There were 4 Kithkin in Time Spiral block. By Aaron Forsythe's admission, this was on purpose. The reason we are "bombarded" with them now is that the set is tribal, which requires a heavy concentration of races, otherwise the set doesn't work.
<snip>
What unique ability do Vedalken have? Even the Ravnican and Mirrodin Vedalken differ significantly. It's not a stretch to have Dominarian and Lorwyn Kithkin differing as well (especially given how much variance there is between Goblins inter-plane). The main difference is that Kithkin are more humanoid than Goblins are, and we're hardwired to reject things that are similar to being human but are non-human. It's a very basic response.
-E
Well, to awnser your question, an ability to vedalken (in mirrodin at least) is providing mana for artifacts. Nothing else unique.
Unique to kithkin, howerver, to my knowldge, is protection from mana costs. Mistmeadow Skulk has lifelink and protection from converted mana costs 3 or greater. Amoru Kithkin cant be blocked by creatures with CMC (or power or somthing) over 3, and another kithkin in Lorwyn has a similar ability.
Yes, did you ever see The Dark Crystal? It was by Frank Oz and Jim Henson. the gelflings (and a lot of the puppets on that show) remind me of kithkin. they are just sooooooooooo ugly. especially the forge tender and the wizened cenn. I may not make a constructed kithkin deck because of this.
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"Wizards could put $100 bills in packs and people would complain about how they were folded."
Knight of Meadowgrain doesn't looks ugly, nor does Gaddock Teeg...some kithkin just got bad art. I could come up with some pretty ugly humans, merfolk, or any other race from magic too.
BTW-The Dark Crystal is a freaking sweet movie...Skeksis in Shadowmoor anyone?
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"But then are we most in order when we are most out of order."-Jack Cade
"That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may die."
- H.P. Lovecraft
That's because those are not Lorywn Kithkin, they're Amrou Kithkin. Just like Elves or Goblins can have some differences across different planes (ie Mogg, Akki, Boggarts, etc) so can Kithkin.
What we're doing here is akin to taking the text of Moby Dick, locating specific words therein, rearranging them to create a passage from Fight Club, and concluding from this evidence that Tyler Durden is based on Ahab.
Also, it's okay for goblins to be stupid, funny, or laughable. But white shouldn't be funny.
Why? Why is it that Red can be funny but White can't? Why can't all the colors have funny stuff outside of the Un sets? And I haven't gotten the vibe from Kithkin that they're absolutely hilarious, or laughable. Despite what they say, they're a type of halfling. Short =/= funny, despite what all the comedy shows and movies with midgets in them might want you to think.
I mean; look at the guy in my sig. Does he look like someone you'd make fun of? No. If you would, he'd wrath you. (Orginally, he'd send in his flying cat to gain some life by hurting you, but you still wouldn't enjoy)
Would you laugh at Blistering Firecat? Kamahl, Pit Fighter? Rathi Dragon? No. But various Goblins? Yes. None of the colors should be locked into one mindset, be it comedy relief, seriousnes, or what have you.
Maybe I missed it, but why? Why do they have to be tall, beautiful, and wise? Hell, even elves don't have to be that way (though a short elf would look funny).
They don't have to be, but if they are, it helps to make them iconic.
Iconic images are things that appeal to people. Magic in particular is trying to tap into the fantasy imagery that many people want to experience... and using a race of tight-knit, community-based squashed humans is not going to be very successful at that. It might be successful at appealing to some demographic that is looking for something wholesome or cute, but I wouldn't say that's the majority, or even a significant portion of, Magic enthusiasts.
Ew, no. Holy and celestial relate too well to a concept of "good," something that MaRo tried to state was not implicit in the color, just as "evil" is not the base description for Black. White needs a race that cares about community (Kithkin, check), harmony (I'd suggest the thoughtweft), and peace (which isn't quite so much a Kithkin trait, though they don't seem to want to go out and kill like the elves do). Peace is the one that will have the least place in Magic, because Magic is a game about conflict. We don't need mini-angels. Angels are very boring and static, until they go nutso like Radiant apparently did.
Actually, no.
"Holy" and "celestial" don't relate to a moral good in an absolute sense that we see clearly does not correspond to White's philosophy. Rather, they correspond to what White thinks is good. Let's use other colors to exemplify this: blue values gaining knowledge, so a blue race is often clever. Green values nature, so its races live in harmony with nature and dictate their actions according to instinct. In the case of White, being holy would simply mean being the embodiment of what White values; peace, law, altruism, etc. Being holy, or perhaps pious, does not necessary equate to being morally good in the big picture (since White can do evil things as we've seen), but you would be considered morally good by White. White wants people to live ordered lives for hopefully a peaceful existence in the future - the actions taken in line with this ideology might seem pretty fanatical or downright evil, but that just makes it seem more holy in White's view. Good can exist in all colors, as can evil, but White is the color most concerned with morality, being good (even if what it considers to be good is not really), and consequently, holy.
"Celestial" has even less to do with good; but rather the stars and the cosmos (and perhaps in general using the symbolism of "light"). You seem to not understand what these words mean. It seems that you've conflated the fallacy of saying White = good (and therefore Black = evil) with merely using the already present symbols and archetypes in many religions of the world, which White should definitely be all about.
I think you'll find that community, harmony and peace are all quite similar concepts and, actually, not all that interesting in a game about, like you said, conflict. Certainly no more interesting than a celestial type race.
MaRo lists a number of words White cares about.
I think the Kithkin fall into a number of those. But I guess I'm one of the few who like the Kithkin. They're amusing, and I like the art with them. More importantly, I like their cards, and do plan on building a Kithkin deck.
Ok? I didn't say that kithkin weren't White, philosophically. They are. But they aren't something that can be iconically White because they don't really command respect or admiration. In a color that's all about sacred cows, symbols and icons associated with community, White needs its iconic race to display the features that consistently show up in various religions (such as purity, austerity, serenity, wisdom or stoicism to name a few) or forms of mysticism in order that we as humans living in the real world can relate to it.
Why? Why is it that Red can be funny but White can't? Why can't all the colors have funny stuff outside of the Un sets? And I haven't gotten the vibe from Kithkin that they're absolutely hilarious, or laughable. Despite what they say, they're a type of halfling. Short =/= funny, despite what all the comedy shows and movies with midgets in them might want you to think.
Would you laugh at Blistering Firecat? Kamahl, Pit Fighter? Rathi Dragon? No. But various Goblins? Yes. None of the colors should be locked into one mindset, be it comedy relief, seriousnes, or what have you.
The sum and total of red is not comprised by mindless, silly goblins. However, red contains an element to its philosophy that white does not - red wants to have fun. White wants to be serious. That's why it's not flavorful for white to be comical or appear foolish.
Iconic images are things that appeal to people. Magic in particular is trying to tap into the fantasy imagery that many people want to experience... and using a race of tight-knit, community-based squashed humans is not going to be very successful at that.
A couple books about a ring and the subsequent movies would like a word with you out back.
What white needs is something that can be iconically White. It seems like they just kind of looked at White in the sense that it's community-oriented and made... the halfing archetype. But compare this to Elves for example. The Elven archetype is typically as tall as humans, especially beautiful and wise, tend to be immortal or at least long-lived, have an affinity and sometimes resistance to magic, and of course are strongly associated with nature. All of these themes make them a naturally easy race to become iconic in their color - Green. Kithkin at their best are short, unattractive, superstitious, not particularly long-lived, and only real fantasy feature is thoughtweft (though this is excellent, admittedly). What White really wants for an iconic race is another tall, beautiful, and wise race. But that is different from Elves, and distinguishable from humans. I personally prefer the idea of a holy, celestial, light-based race of White creatures. Maybe some supernatural themes along the lines of rapid healing and natural defenses to magic. Something that can evoke respect and awe, which the kithkin don't.
Uhhh.
You realize you just described angels, right?
Personally, I always liked the aven. Maybe it's just because I started playing Magic during Odyssey block.
I have no particular hatred for the kithkin. In fact, I'm pretty happy that they really did try to differentiate them from hobbits, and I hope there will be more kithkin in the future.
Personally, I don't dislike the kithkin art. I don't like it, but I don't hate it. I do feel like they were radically different than how they were portrayed in TS, and its definitely not my favorite art. I think that they should have stayed with the TS style art. However, Wizards probably thought "Its just not a fantasy world without tiny people. What? No; screw dwarves. We need a new race. Something silly sounding that has little to no support outside this block. And it has to be kinda cute in an ugly sort of way." I guess if they had gone with Dwarves, they wouldn't really be able to do giants, since both occupy the R/W color slots. I realize that Dwarves could be W/r and Giants R/w, but still. Besides, kithkin are essentially W/W anyway; they could have just made W dwarves and said "Screw it. No red dwarves." Oh Wizards... You entertain me so...
He doesn't like lemonade...
My tombstone shall read </life>
Not really. Angels are big fat 4/4 monstrosities. Elves are rarely even 3/3.
But I probably could have been more specific - white needs an iconic small angelic race to go with its big iconic angelic race.
Jolie-laide, perhaps?
Never did like Steve Buscemi. Especially weirded out picturing him as a kithkin.
That isn't the case. There are red birds like Airdrop Condor and Black birds too like Aphetto Vulture. Heck, there are even Artifact birds like Clockwork Condor. So that exception isn't the only non-white/non-blue bird.
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I got Soul, but I'm not a Soldier...oh wait [Mono White Soldiers]
Maybe I missed it, but why? Why do they have to be tall, beautiful, and wise? Hell, even elves don't have to be that way (though a short elf would look funny).
Ew, no. Holy and celestial relate too well to a concept of "good," something that MaRo tried to state was not implicit in the color, just as "evil" is not the base description for Black. White needs a race that cares about community (Kithkin, check), harmony (I'd suggest the thoughtweft), and peace (which isn't quite so much a Kithkin trait, though they don't seem to want to go out and kill like the elves do). Peace is the one that will have the least place in Magic, because Magic is a game about conflict. We don't need mini-angels. Angels are very boring and static, until they go nutso like Radiant apparently did.
MaRo lists a number of words White cares about.
I think the Kithkin fall into a number of those. But I guess I'm one of the few who like the Kithkin. They're amusing, and I like the art with them. More importantly, I like their cards, and do plan on building a Kithkin deck.
QFT. Couldn't have better said myself.
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I got Soul, but I'm not a Soldier...oh wait [Mono White Soldiers]
Don't be a smartass. There were only 3 Flamekin before Lorwyn block, and I don't hear you complaining about them. The problem with Kithkin (in your eyes) isn't that they aren't iconic enough, it's that they look weird. So spare me the whining.
-E
Thanks to DarkNightCavalier & Magus of the Sheep from Scuttlemutt Productions for the cool signature and avatar.
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I got Soul, but I'm not a Soldier...oh wait [Mono White Soldiers]
What is my point, you may ask? The "white iconic race" known as "Human" has failed to see any variance. All Humans are always the same kind of Human, and it actually gets rather boring. Kithkin are a nice change from the Humans that have dominated for so long as their dull, stereotypical selves. Now I'm not a huge fan of Kithkin, but I do appreciate the straying from the norm for a block or two.
Now, this brings to light another question: Why aren't Humans ever portrayed differently in different stories? One could argue that different races (black, Asian, etc.) could be considered different portrayals, but we don't even see those, or we hardly do. (As an aside, I suppose we saw the Asian-type Humans for the Kamigawa block...which makes me wonder if we're just too used to seeing Humans of different races that we just automatically classify them as 'Human' whereas the other races we already have a distinct concept of what they ought to be like, so any variation is noticed immediately...or is that just me?) I can't think of much in the way of variety for Humans, though. Lorwyn added horns to Elves and still called them Elves, but horns added to Humans would probably classify them as at least Mutants, or perhaps Beasts. But why not just Humans? I urge Wizards to add some variety to Humans. Humans in different planes could be just as different as Elves and Vedalken and Cats from different planes.
But anyway, I guess that's enough of my random thoughts...
As for the new iconic status of kithkin, I think that's fine. Thoughtweft is white enough to fit. The kithkin are a very united community that defends itself with amazing tactics. To me, they seem like a fine choice for an iconic white race.
Edit: I have no idea why you haven't gotten an infraction for this yet, NecroBlade.
Kithkin laughable? Goblins give more comic relieve (i.e. One of Goblin Grenade's Flavor text, Facevaulter's name, Aunties being male, Squeaking Pie Sneak's name & flavortext).
Thanks to DarkNightCavalier & Magus of the Sheep from Scuttlemutt Productions for the cool signature and avatar.
-Playing-
I got Soul, but I'm not a Soldier...oh wait [Mono White Soldiers]
Cat people FTW!!
Yes, some Aunties are male. I've read it in one of magicthegathering.com's articles/faq (don't remember which especificaly).
Thanks to DarkNightCavalier & Magus of the Sheep from Scuttlemutt Productions for the cool signature and avatar.
-Playing-
I got Soul, but I'm not a Soldier...oh wait [Mono White Soldiers]
Hah. Accusing me of whining. Here you are going off on a rant saying that "oh, gee, they added four new kithkin. That means we can expand it fulllyyyyyyyy!" without any solid grounds to do such a thing. As mentioned before, Kithkin have yet to establish themselves as a viable race without the overflooding in Lorwyn.
Had they made a few Kithkin here and there every few sets then yes, that would have been grounds for doing such a thing. But as it stands, it felt as though the Kithkin were thrown in with such a total lack of planning that they almost don't fit at all in this theme. Before going all out with Kithkin, I'd have gone with something more prominent, like Cats or Gargoyles. Maybe even Wolvenfolk.
To follow-up on Zaphod's comment, White needs a race that's noble, honourbound and stout. Kithkin do not offer this in their current disposition in Lorwyn.
Mind you, had they kept kithkin the same (or identical in nature) as they did with Amrou Kithkin, Amrou Seekers and Amrou Scouts, then perhaps we would be on the right track. But the current creative made them out to be a race that just doesn't fit Kithkin at all.
For Red, I'd have expected Gnomes to take over the Goblin part. Or even go so far as to make Orcs a more prominent race. Orcs have had a severe lack of representation since Weatherlight and if it weren't for Coldsnap and a couple of shots in Time Spiral, they probably would have been forgotten entirely.
Flamekin are not a race of themselves but merely a special type of a race, Elemental. Had they said Creature - Flamekin, then your comment might be valid. But as it stands, Flamekin are your regular elemental. Elementals have been around since day 1 and therefore have a right to establish themselves as a race that is capable to survive and support one another as a sentient tribe. Kithkin, well, do not. At least not under their current disposition.
'buster
HR Analyst. Gamer. Activist | Fearless, and forthright | Aggro-control is a mindset.
Elspeth and Jhoira rock my world.
QUOTED FOR MOTHER FREAKIN' TRUTHZ.
Christ almighty those guys are ugly as sin...but they sure do kick butt. Kind of like another tribe I know... *rolls eyes at gobbos*
peace
^-- And this is exactly why these forums are for whiny little babies who can't deal with the fact that they are wrong. So they go cry to a mod. Lawl.
Except that they knew they wanted Kithkin to be the white race in Lorwyn when they developed Time Spiral block. This was stated in Forsythe's feature article when he said: "We wanted the Lorwyn tribes to be "prepopulated" in the Standard environment. To that end, Amrou Scout was made a Kithkin, Coral Trickster was made a Merfolk, and Desolation Giant was added to the "timeshifted" cards. Heartwood Storyteller is a Treefolk. Merfolk Looter is in Tenth Edition. Llanowar Mentor and his cycle of friends all make Lorwyn-relevant tokens. Yes, we were working on "Peanut" that far in advance."
While you may disagree, according to whatever policy they're working on now, having 4 of a race establishes it enough to make it a feature race for a set. Considering that Kithkin fit the environment and fit the flavor of the world, I'd say they did a decent job of it without tipping their hand by overpopulating Kithkin in TSP block. If there were 10 to 20 Kithkin in TSP block, I'd say you would have a point about "overflooding". Considering Lorwyn is a tribal block where creature types matter intimately, if a race is picked to be one of those to be included, of course you're going to see a lot of them. You might as well start whining at the sun tomorrow for being so bright.
Now I could accept as a logical basis that you don't feel that 3-4 of a race is enough to raise it to iconic status, not enough to make it worthy of being THE race for a color in a tribal block, but again, you raised no objections to Flamekin, who had, prior to Lorwyn block, only 3 cards in the history of the game. So obviously you're not speaking from an historical precedent, but an emotional, visceral one. You don't like Kithkin. But rather than just stating that and moving on, you feel the need to try and couch your feelings in a poorly worded argument. No wonder it is easily torn to shreds.
-E
Well, to awnser your question, an ability to vedalken (in mirrodin at least) is providing mana for artifacts. Nothing else unique.
Unique to kithkin, howerver, to my knowldge, is protection from mana costs. Mistmeadow Skulk has lifelink and protection from converted mana costs 3 or greater. Amoru Kithkin cant be blocked by creatures with CMC (or power or somthing) over 3, and another kithkin in Lorwyn has a similar ability.
Yes, did you ever see The Dark Crystal? It was by Frank Oz and Jim Henson. the gelflings (and a lot of the puppets on that show) remind me of kithkin. they are just sooooooooooo ugly. especially the forge tender and the wizened cenn. I may not make a constructed kithkin deck because of this.
Tribute to Dr. Jeebus
Not a little Sheeple.
BTW-The Dark Crystal is a freaking sweet movie...Skeksis in Shadowmoor anyone?
"That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may die."
- H.P. Lovecraft
I love you.
You can never have too many gargoyles.
Touché.
You have my apologies for starting a good discussion. Infract me all you want, I hardly visit this site any more.
Another sig quote, methinks.
Guildmaster Jarad
Why? Why is it that Red can be funny but White can't? Why can't all the colors have funny stuff outside of the Un sets? And I haven't gotten the vibe from Kithkin that they're absolutely hilarious, or laughable. Despite what they say, they're a type of halfling. Short =/= funny, despite what all the comedy shows and movies with midgets in them might want you to think.
Would you laugh at Blistering Firecat? Kamahl, Pit Fighter? Rathi Dragon? No. But various Goblins? Yes. None of the colors should be locked into one mindset, be it comedy relief, seriousnes, or what have you.
They don't have to be, but if they are, it helps to make them iconic.
Iconic images are things that appeal to people. Magic in particular is trying to tap into the fantasy imagery that many people want to experience... and using a race of tight-knit, community-based squashed humans is not going to be very successful at that. It might be successful at appealing to some demographic that is looking for something wholesome or cute, but I wouldn't say that's the majority, or even a significant portion of, Magic enthusiasts.
Actually, no.
"Holy" and "celestial" don't relate to a moral good in an absolute sense that we see clearly does not correspond to White's philosophy. Rather, they correspond to what White thinks is good. Let's use other colors to exemplify this: blue values gaining knowledge, so a blue race is often clever. Green values nature, so its races live in harmony with nature and dictate their actions according to instinct. In the case of White, being holy would simply mean being the embodiment of what White values; peace, law, altruism, etc. Being holy, or perhaps pious, does not necessary equate to being morally good in the big picture (since White can do evil things as we've seen), but you would be considered morally good by White. White wants people to live ordered lives for hopefully a peaceful existence in the future - the actions taken in line with this ideology might seem pretty fanatical or downright evil, but that just makes it seem more holy in White's view. Good can exist in all colors, as can evil, but White is the color most concerned with morality, being good (even if what it considers to be good is not really), and consequently, holy.
"Celestial" has even less to do with good; but rather the stars and the cosmos (and perhaps in general using the symbolism of "light"). You seem to not understand what these words mean. It seems that you've conflated the fallacy of saying White = good (and therefore Black = evil) with merely using the already present symbols and archetypes in many religions of the world, which White should definitely be all about.
I think you'll find that community, harmony and peace are all quite similar concepts and, actually, not all that interesting in a game about, like you said, conflict. Certainly no more interesting than a celestial type race.
Ok? I didn't say that kithkin weren't White, philosophically. They are. But they aren't something that can be iconically White because they don't really command respect or admiration. In a color that's all about sacred cows, symbols and icons associated with community, White needs its iconic race to display the features that consistently show up in various religions (such as purity, austerity, serenity, wisdom or stoicism to name a few) or forms of mysticism in order that we as humans living in the real world can relate to it.
The sum and total of red is not comprised by mindless, silly goblins. However, red contains an element to its philosophy that white does not - red wants to have fun. White wants to be serious. That's why it's not flavorful for white to be comical or appear foolish.
A couple books about a ring and the subsequent movies would like a word with you out back.
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I think you'll find people were much more interested in the Elves than the hobbits in that regard.