>>>This is posted to discuss mass removal in the new standard, specifically Plague Boiler<<<
Some people dont think Plague Boiler is any good.
Now for analysis.. (hehe like school)
First of all, how soon can it go off?
Depends on how much mana u have (assuming it is G or B mana)
1-2 Mana------cant play it
3-5 Mana-------Upkeep of 2 turns you play it
6-11 Mana--------Upkeep of turn after u play it
12+ Mana----------Turn u play it
Typically, in rock at least ur in the 6-11 range when playing it, which is ideal.
You play boiler.
At end of their next turn add a counter (u now tapped out)
Untap.
Add one for three at upkeep
Add another-BOOM! for standard and a weenie environment=verygood.
However this a lot of mana that needs to be GB
Alternatives:
Wrath of God 2WW Sorcery Destroy all Creatures Wildfire 4RR Sorcery 4 dmg to all creatures, all players sac 4 lands. Final Judgement 4WW Sorcery Remove all creatures from the game Hideous Laughter 2BB Instant All creatures get -2/-2 Tempest of Light 2W Instant Destroy all enchantments
*tell me if u think of others
Basically, in standard its uncontested, so play it!
Extra: Combo for GBw Rock
Senario: In play, Gleancrawler and Loxodon Hierarch, anyother creatures, Plague Boiler with 1 counter, at end of their turn, 3 mana untapped, 1BGGW available
1.Untap
2 Get free counter at upkeep
3 Add counter
4 in response pay WG to regen all ur creatures
5 attack with your stuff
6 at end of turn, Loxodon back to your hand.
Congradulations, u just got a one sided plague boiler and a large unblockable attack.
* this combo alost works by waiting until u get the 3rd counter for free one turn later. u also dont have to have a gleancrawler, if not u just lose the loxodon.
1.Untap
2 Get free counter at upkeep
3 Add counter
4 in response pay WG to regen all ur creatures
5 attack with your stuff
6 at end of turn, Loxodon back to your hand.
Congradulations, u just got a one sided plague boiler and a large unblockable attack.
This doesn't work because regeneration taps all your creatures!!!!!!!!!!!
Senario: In play, Gleancrawler and Loxodon Hierarch, anyother creatures, Plague Boiler with 1 counter, at end of their turn, 3 mana untapped, 1BGGW available
1.Untap
2 Get free counter at upkeep
3 Add counter
4 in response pay WG to regen all ur creatures
5 attack with your stuff
6 at end of turn, Loxodon back to your hand.
Congradulations, u just got a one sided plague boiler and a large unblockable attack.
Actually, this doesn't quite work the way you want it to.
Don't forget when your creatures regenerate, they become tapped and are removed from combat. This means that they will not be able to attack on the turn you blow up your boiler (if you blow it up before combat) - unless you have some way of untapping your creatures.
If you try to attack and *then* blow everything up before blockers, your creatures will be removed from combat.
This doesn't work because regeneration taps all your creatures!!!!!!!!!!!
Keep in mind that when you type in bold, with excessive exclamation points, and have only the single thought, it gives the heavy impression that you're yelling at someone. And you didn't really delve into details, or maybe an alternate option. See Grunge's post above for something a bit more constructive for the forums.
On topic.....
I have also been rather surprised at the response plague boiler has been receiving. I would assume that some sort of mono build could use it even without the counter acceleration to get it go as fast as possible. during those three turns, instead of worrying about countering the stuff that's going to get blown up, counter the stuff that targets the boiler. In the meantime, you can play draw spells to get crazy critter like Meloku and win from there after the reset. While my experience with building/playing good constructed decks is minimal, it's an idea i've have. Comments would be nice.
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It is a piece of crap card. I cracked 3 in packs and tried to play them. They're nearly unplayable even in B/G Rock. It's slow, requires a lot of mana and gets problematic when you have board control, which is what you want to have often with the Rock. Black has crazy creature removal now and green can easily deal with artifacts/enchantments. Then you have Putrefy. You must might see 4 Putrefy/4 Last Gasp in EVERY Rock maindeck. You may also see Naturalize in every sideboard. There is no reason whatsoever to play Boiler. I sold a couple to Mtgfanatic.com for 11 dollars USD. I encourage everyone to do this while they can.
Their prices are already beginning to plummet on Ebay. All the signs that you should sell/trade em while you can. Mass removal artifacts are getting wimpier and wimpier every set. Disk --> Keg --> Stone --> Jank Boiler.
Also, if you hear anyone comparing this to Pernicious Deed, slap them.
It is junk. Seedspark and friends destroy it before it has an effect on the game. In an environment where people are playing main deck artifact and enchantment kill for better cards than plague boiler, you have only a small chance of getting any advantage out of it.
At first sight and theory, it seems good. Until the playtest comes in, I feel terribly owned by casting that junk to stop a bunch of weenies. You either only kill a few weenies using this by casting early, or casting it too late to fully activate the artifact, since the weenies will be going full force as you waste mana on the junk which can't go off yet.
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When Guildpact was handed over from design, it also had seven gold rares per guild,... and that the seventh gold rare in each guild was less important to the set than the Nephilim. So each guild is down a rare in this set.
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i think boiler has a place in non-GB build, like someone mention in Mono-Blue or even Mono Red, Granted it takes 3 turns, but against someone who does not have arty hate in the main or just gets plain unlucky they have to stunt there board position or go balls out. either way its not bad.. I've been tinkering with the idea of it in Mono-blue, it seems so-so in testing thus far. Its not good in GB it seems and other decks usually have better options except for blue so *shrug* who knows..
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I've played it without any regrets. Don't think of it so much as a board sweeper, though. It's good because you don't have to worry about your opponent outracing your big spells. Either an opponent wants to play very aggressively, in which case the Boiler can kill 3-5 of your opponents permanents fairly early on, or else he wants to wait for the Boiler to go away, in which case you get time to build your mana base. It's really good in any deck that wants to stall until its mana curve can catch up to the opponent's.
That said, it's more of an enabler card than anything. Slower strategies that otherwise wouldn't be any good benefit greatly from a card that can keep them alive for 1 or 2 extra turns.
As for the Seed Spark/Naturalize/Putrefy argument, that doesn't stop other cards that are vulnerable to them from seeing play. Would you rather your oppnent played Seed Spark or Sunforger? Them wasting an extra turn to destroy your card is often almost as good as letting it destroy everything. It's not supposed to stay on the board.
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Quote from Aaron Forsythe on Guildpact: Twenty Questions »
When Guildpact was handed over from design, it also had seven gold rares per guild,... and that the seventh gold rare in each guild was less important to the set than the Nephilim. So each guild is down a rare in this set.
Gruul, Izzet and Orzhov. Officially screwed by WOTC.
it costs 2 more than oblivion stone to blow the world up on the same turn it comes down. Standard changes though, this, in my opinion, is a much better card than oblivion stone.
It puts pressure on the opponent and it can cost less mana in the long run. If you get manascrewed you can still activate the boiler by turn 5, or two turns after you play it. you can't pop the stone off until you have 5 mana, and it goes of on the same turn conventionally anyways. This is important because now beatdown and weenie decks have access to a mass destruction that will cost them only 3 mana initially and go off 3 turns(or as said previously, use two turns and it goes off a turn faster).
Lets analayze
Boiler
Casting Cost: 3
Activation Cost: 3*
Pros: puts constant pressure on, costs less overall, can use it on manascrew, can use the plague counters for other cards(combos)
Cons: colored mana*, can blow up in your face
Stone
Casting Cost: 3
Activation Cost: 5
Pros: can save your guys, costs less in the short run, colorless
Cons: costs more overall(5mana vs 3mana)
Overall they go off same turn, boiler is easier to achieve, but need setup boiler doesn't need colored mana, but it helps. I'd say that the stone is generally better, but it if you are skilled enough to play it right the boiler is better, the boiler requires more planning and better deckbuilding, but the stone is just blow up and have a good time.
you can't pop the stone off until you have 5 mana, and it goes of on the same turn conventionally anyways. This is important because now beatdown and weenie decks have access to a mass destruction that will cost them only 3 mana initially and go off 3 turns(or as said previously, use two turns and it goes off a turn faster).
Why would beatdown and weenie decks want mass destruction? Anyways, OStone was used mostly by Mono-Green and Mono-Black decks, which can very easily reach 5 mana by turn 4. It was used by Mono-Green decks to wipe creatures, and used by Mono-Black to wipe artifacts and enchantments. However, it's so easy to run 2-3 colours in the current Standard that you can just splash for Naturalize/Rend Flesh.
Plague Boiler is unneeded because Kagemaro is much more efficient, and there aren't many artifacts used in the current format. And any major enchantment problems can be solved with Naturalize or Tempest of Light if necessary.
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A concealed attack on my intelligence? Improbable!
it is meant for multiplayer in star format it can stall game for you for enough time to find another/ draw into your kill card
ravnica is ridiculous multiplayer edition, hunted creatures in star format = meh, you can give creatures to players in both sides of you because you dont have to kill them and you cant be attacked by them..
in normal 1v1 standard games it is useful if you need long game power, it is'nt good against black hand/Wr weennie/rats but it can ruin the game of mid-range decks that run some not so ridiculously fast creatures.. kudzu grow for example? or some greenish dredge deck could use it to wipe all out then use your freakin fast recover speed to get your creatures back.. only thing that sucks is that it kills bloodbond march =(
monored burn with this? i dunno, id prefer ensnaring bridge over this
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While I personally like it, the market has it roughly at 4. For cards in Standard, playability dictates demand, which would raise its price. So, most of the time, a $4 card isn't very good.
NO its very useless in standard constructed format. Thres so much artifact destruction in standard that its a totally useless card. The popularity of this card is in large part due to misunderstanding how the card works. Once it hits 3 counters it detonates putting another counter on it does not make it trigger again so as soon as that 3rd counter gets on it one of the anti artifact instants will kill it and theres nothing you could do about it. In drafts though its a solid card
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From MaRo
Every rarity gets good cards. That means that some mythic rares will be tournament quality as will some commons, some uncommons and some rares. My promise wasn't that mythic rares wouldn't get good cards but that we wouldn't limit the good cards to only being mythic rare.
Bear this in mind the next time a powerful mythic rare is spoiled
Thanks to chaostheory90 for finding this quiz for me
maybe the value of the card will go up once we can't use pernicious deed in extended, and just as a follow up I don't play extended, so I don't when it leaves, or even if it is still there.
1. plague boiler loves deck that has no permanent (other than land)...
2. It stalls the amount of threat the opponent put in to play...
3. It punishes opps who is overcommitted...
4. It wipes the field clean (sans regenerators)...
5. the boiler loves control deck, it BELONGS there...
what is the current control deck in ravnica?
i can't say answer that, the deck does not exist...
I think the Boilers useful because the stall can play mind games with your opponent. And thats ALWAYS fun ^_^b. But I don't think its worth the money its going for. I might pick a few up from a happless scrub that just doesn't know any better.
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Some people dont think Plague Boiler is any good.
Now for analysis.. (hehe like school)
First of all, how soon can it go off?
Depends on how much mana u have (assuming it is G or B mana)
1-2 Mana------cant play it
3-5 Mana-------Upkeep of 2 turns you play it
6-11 Mana--------Upkeep of turn after u play it
12+ Mana----------Turn u play it
Typically, in rock at least ur in the 6-11 range when playing it, which is ideal.
You play boiler.
At end of their next turn add a counter (u now tapped out)
Untap.
Add one for three at upkeep
Add another-BOOM! for standard and a weenie environment=verygood.
However this a lot of mana that needs to be GB
Alternatives:
Wrath of God 2WW Sorcery Destroy all Creatures
Wildfire 4RR Sorcery 4 dmg to all creatures, all players sac 4 lands.
Final Judgement 4WW Sorcery Remove all creatures from the game
Hideous Laughter 2BB Instant All creatures get -2/-2
Tempest of Light 2W Instant Destroy all enchantments
*tell me if u think of others
Basically, in standard its uncontested, so play it!
Extra: Combo for GBw Rock
Senario: In play, Gleancrawler and Loxodon Hierarch, anyother creatures, Plague Boiler with 1 counter, at end of their turn, 3 mana untapped, 1BGGW available
1.Untap
2 Get free counter at upkeep
3 Add counter
4 in response pay WG to regen all ur creatures
5 attack with your stuff
6 at end of turn, Loxodon back to your hand.
Congradulations, u just got a one sided plague boiler and a large unblockable attack.
* this combo alost works by waiting until u get the 3rd counter for free one turn later. u also dont have to have a gleancrawler, if not u just lose the loxodon.
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Most MUC doesnt play it and plays wildfire instead, check out the competitive t2 forum for some decks.
RW control uses Wrath, Shard, Pheonix, etc. instead.
Another reason to play it or not is your metagame, its only worth it if u've got stuff to blow up, which in tier 1 t2 right now, we definitely do.
The internet is like drugs, it can be alot of fun, but most people on it say really stupid stuff
This doesn't work because regeneration taps all your creatures!!!!!!!!!!!
"A Plague on All Your Houses!" - Thespian's Stage Pox
Actually, this doesn't quite work the way you want it to.
Don't forget when your creatures regenerate, they become tapped and are removed from combat. This means that they will not be able to attack on the turn you blow up your boiler (if you blow it up before combat) - unless you have some way of untapping your creatures.
If you try to attack and *then* blow everything up before blockers, your creatures will be removed from combat.
Have Fun
Grunge
Keep in mind that when you type in bold, with excessive exclamation points, and have only the single thought, it gives the heavy impression that you're yelling at someone. And you didn't really delve into details, or maybe an alternate option. See Grunge's post above for something a bit more constructive for the forums.
On topic.....
I have also been rather surprised at the response plague boiler has been receiving. I would assume that some sort of mono build could use it even without the counter acceleration to get it go as fast as possible. during those three turns, instead of worrying about countering the stuff that's going to get blown up, counter the stuff that targets the boiler. In the meantime, you can play draw spells to get crazy critter like Meloku and win from there after the reset. While my experience with building/playing good constructed decks is minimal, it's an idea i've have. Comments would be nice.
Drop by my Helpdesk if you have any questions/concerns on the Limited forum.
Excited for M13 Limited? What do you think the format will look like? Head over to the limited forum and let us know what you think.
Their prices are already beginning to plummet on Ebay. All the signs that you should sell/trade em while you can. Mass removal artifacts are getting wimpier and wimpier every set. Disk --> Keg --> Stone --> Jank Boiler.
Also, if you hear anyone comparing this to Pernicious Deed, slap them.
Maybe we will get a better Deed next time.
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Gruul, Izzet and Orzhov. Officially screwed by WOTC.
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That said, it's more of an enabler card than anything. Slower strategies that otherwise wouldn't be any good benefit greatly from a card that can keep them alive for 1 or 2 extra turns.
As for the Seed Spark/Naturalize/Putrefy argument, that doesn't stop other cards that are vulnerable to them from seeing play. Would you rather your oppnent played Seed Spark or Sunforger? Them wasting an extra turn to destroy your card is often almost as good as letting it destroy everything. It's not supposed to stay on the board.
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Yeap, my apologies. I meant a similar (but not better) replacement for Pern Deed. :redface:
As for Boiler in Mono Blue, if only Oblivion Stone is still around in Standard. Maybe the rest of the two sets will create some viable choices.
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Gruul, Izzet and Orzhov. Officially screwed by WOTC.
It puts pressure on the opponent and it can cost less mana in the long run. If you get manascrewed you can still activate the boiler by turn 5, or two turns after you play it. you can't pop the stone off until you have 5 mana, and it goes of on the same turn conventionally anyways. This is important because now beatdown and weenie decks have access to a mass destruction that will cost them only 3 mana initially and go off 3 turns(or as said previously, use two turns and it goes off a turn faster).
Lets analayze
Boiler
Casting Cost: 3
Activation Cost: 3*
Pros: puts constant pressure on, costs less overall, can use it on manascrew, can use the plague counters for other cards(combos)
Cons: colored mana*, can blow up in your face
Stone
Casting Cost: 3
Activation Cost: 5
Pros: can save your guys, costs less in the short run, colorless
Cons: costs more overall(5mana vs 3mana)
Overall they go off same turn, boiler is easier to achieve, but need setup boiler doesn't need colored mana, but it helps. I'd say that the stone is generally better, but it if you are skilled enough to play it right the boiler is better, the boiler requires more planning and better deckbuilding, but the stone is just blow up and have a good time.
In school now,sorry, more later...
Why would beatdown and weenie decks want mass destruction? Anyways, OStone was used mostly by Mono-Green and Mono-Black decks, which can very easily reach 5 mana by turn 4. It was used by Mono-Green decks to wipe creatures, and used by Mono-Black to wipe artifacts and enchantments. However, it's so easy to run 2-3 colours in the current Standard that you can just splash for Naturalize/Rend Flesh.
Plague Boiler is unneeded because Kagemaro is much more efficient, and there aren't many artifacts used in the current format. And any major enchantment problems can be solved with Naturalize or Tempest of Light if necessary.
it is meant for multiplayer in star format it can stall game for you for enough time to find another/ draw into your kill card
ravnica is ridiculous multiplayer edition, hunted creatures in star format = meh, you can give creatures to players in both sides of you because you dont have to kill them and you cant be attacked by them..
in normal 1v1 standard games it is useful if you need long game power, it is'nt good against black hand/Wr weennie/rats but it can ruin the game of mid-range decks that run some not so ridiculously fast creatures.. kudzu grow for example? or some greenish dredge deck could use it to wipe all out then use your freakin fast recover speed to get your creatures back.. only thing that sucks is that it kills bloodbond march =(
monored burn with this? i dunno, id prefer ensnaring bridge over this
and acts without effort.
Teaching without verbosity,
producing without possessing,
creating without regard to result,
claiming nothing,
the Sage has nothing to lose.
4 Jittes are easily destroyed by a force of 4 Putrefys and 4 Naturalizes. Same for Sunforger. I don't think there are any decks that use both.
Ah well you should have said so! Still I think Plague Boiler is pretty weak.
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Bear this in mind the next time a powerful mythic rare is spoiled
Thanks to chaostheory90 for finding this quiz for me
2. It stalls the amount of threat the opponent put in to play...
3. It punishes opps who is overcommitted...
4. It wipes the field clean (sans regenerators)...
5. the boiler loves control deck, it BELONGS there...
what is the current control deck in ravnica?
i can't say answer that, the deck does not exist...
House Dimir
Type 2 :
W U Solution.dec
Ravnica Block :
U B Glimpse.dec
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