PTLA Deadguy Red, the one deck where Mogg Conscripts ever shone, played 26 creatures, 16 of which (including Mogg Conscripts) were 1cc and 8 of which were 2cc.
Most red decks in t2 now play, at most, 20 creatures, 4 of which are Arc-Sloggers. Arc-Slogger is just too good not to play in t2, especially since it's your main out against Affinity.
I will be surprised if *any* red decks in t2 play Goblin Cohort. I just don't think a true swarm approach is viable until Affinity rotates out. To stay in the game against Affinity, you have to pack so much removal that it's difficult to play enough creatures to consistently swing with the Cohort.
The possibility exists in Block that the Akki deck will take more of a swarm approach, in which case it could find a home. But Deadguy Red could afford to play only 4 real removal spells (Kindle) plus 4 pingers (Fireslingers) because it had Cursed Scrolls batting cleanup. There's nothing remotely equivalent to Fireslinger or Cursed Scroll in Block.
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Blazing shoal just doesn't make the cut in the deck. With a curve that ends at 3, there'd be nothing worth removing for the shoal. Sure, you can do fun splice tricks if you manage to get a shoal and a glacial ray, but "1R, Discard a Blazing Shoal, Remove Glacial Ray from the game: Deal 2 damage to a target and a creature gets +2/+0" really doesn't seem worthwhile. The ray is useful spliced onto a Lava Spike or Crack the earth, but it is run for being the only 2 cost burn spell, and the most versatile burn spell in the block (along with y's flame which is in here too). Shoal would just be an overpriced, counterproductive, and card-disadvantageous card in a cheap and already rather card-disadvantageous deck. And the deck only does run one legend, and only 3 copies of it. The only other thing I'd want to ditch for an effect would be the genju, and +1/+0 just isnt worth it (plus i only run 3 of those as well).
Something that could warrant inclusion however is the "Akki Blizzard-Herder":
1R, 1/1
When it leaves play, each player sacs a land.
Turn 2 Akki raider, turn three blizzard herder, crack the earth. They sac 2 lands, you sac a God's eye. Your Akki raider gets +3/+0 until end of turn and you get a 1/1 token in the process. Sick.
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Well, sure--in 40 or 60 card decks, but man, you're missing out! 8 card decks are all the rage! :grin2:
If Spirit/Arcane decks see heavy play, expect to use Crackshot.
Crackshot is SB material for the deck. Since against stuff like creatureless shrine and Samurai they tend not to play a lot of spirit arcane. But against decks that do, hes like having copies 4-6 of zo-zu.
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The problem with Shoal is that a) you have to have enough little guys out, or cheap burn to remove blockers, to get one through unblocked and b) you have to have enough higher cc spells to make Shoal worth it when you do get through. There's a a design conflict there.
If you just drop Shoals into a low-cc deck, 2 cards in hand in exchange for 2-3 direct damage, along with an unblocked attacker, is not that exciting ... you'd be better off ditching the Shoals and just playing something like Lava Spike that you can cast at any time regardless of the board situation. And my opinion of Lava Spike is not high except as a Glacial Ray carrier.
I guess testing will show just how important Arcane spells are in the red deck -- with just Crack the Earth and Glacial Ray, you have 8, which I think is fine. It's not like either spell is useless on its own.
I don't think Shoal's going to be the enduring chase rare that others seem to think it is.
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ok... Spirit/Arcane= MAY-B archetypes... but... wow... just... I would say that if the metagame evolved like that... I can't say I woulden't be happy... but don't count on it... CRACKshot is damn fine in draft... (damn splicing evil... so meny headshots...)
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When Brian Tinsman, Set Designer enters the battlefield, ignore all flavor and mechanics of the first two sets in the block. "Ok so what do we have here... gothic horror? Scrap it. Expand the Devine Vs. Demonic duel deck to 244 cards and print it!"
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yes... Big Red vill love ze burrning Shoal of evil... mmm yes... (I need to find a way were my B/G deck dosen't lose 70% to Big Red... worst match up... ever.)
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Brian Tinsman, Set Designer :?mana::snow::snow:
Legendary Creature – Human Designer (MR)
Brian Tinsman, Set Designer can only be cast during the third set of a block.
When Brian Tinsman, Set Designer enters the battlefield, ignore all flavor and mechanics of the first two sets in the block. "Ok so what do we have here... gothic horror? Scrap it. Expand the Devine Vs. Demonic duel deck to 244 cards and print it!"
2/2
I hear rendfleshing the kumano/slogger they just spent 2 cards (with seething) to play is some good. That or waiting till your turn and deathclouding for 2-3, killing their entire side of the board and hand and leaving yours decently well stocked. And I hear Sakura-Tribe elder keeping the early firewalkers at bay is tech. Big Red (with the exception maybe of LD red, which rolls over to affinity) rolls over to B/G.
But back on topic. I suppose Crackshot may not be necessary SB, but it certainly can be useful as something that says "I have a big target on my head. But even taking me out via rend flesh/hideous laughter/horobi's whisper will cost you some life" against spirit/arcane decks. I'm not saying they have to be entirely spirit/arcane, but there are several (possible) decks out there worth playing using spirit/arcanes: Green Spirit Beatdown, Black Aggro-Control Spirit/Arcane, blue spirit skies, etc.
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I love it when people have a go at me and then they want to play with cards like avalanchers and blizzard herders.Come on guys get a grip.Disscussion is good though.
well the blizzard herder comment is justified but in a sligh deck akki avalanchers really shine, you only need 5 land at max and turning any extra land into 2 extra damage to the dome is exactly what you want to do in a sligh deck, if you add in akki raiders it becomes even better.
what i want people in this thread to realize is that the thread is called "sligh in post-BoK CHK Block" and in case you didn't realize sligh is a speed red deck based on a lot of 1 drops, a slightly smaller amount of 2 drops, a small amount of 3/4 drops, a bit of burn, a bit of land D and as few lands as possible. If you're including cards like kumano or blazing shoal you're building a different type of deck namely big red or red beats or whatever you want to call it. Also this is a block thread so arcslogger is a must have in any red deck is not a valid comment.
You won't be scoffing at Blizzard herders when someone drops one and then cracks the earth turn three, taking out two of your lands and swinging for five with the Akki Raider they played last turn and putting a 1/1 spirit token into play. Especially if they follow up on the next turn with a Zo-Zu.
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I love it when people have a go at me and then they want to play with cards like avalanchers and blizzard herders.Come on guys get a grip.Disscussion is good though.
Any Block Sligh list played outside of the 0-2 bracket will have 4 Akki Avalanchers.
Blizzard-Herders are arguable, but Avalanchers? They're a given.
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Yeah the card is truly sick, heck, I'd even play it as a low pick in draft and a medium inclusion in sealed. I remember when it came out my friends and I originally thought you could use the ability endphase of their turn and have the bonus carry over to your turn when you could use it again. It was like, fireblast on legs. Of course, then we found out that wasn't how it worked, but it was great while it lasted. It's still a very powerful card, one of the best one drops in red in a while. Sure, its no Mogg Fanatic, or Jackal Pup, or Grim Lavamancer, but its up there.
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Well, I know this is a Sligh thread, but I think that red still lacks enough oomph to make a quality block constructed deck all on its own.
In the other hand, I believe that Red/Black, Red/Green or Red/Blue could do very, very well...
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I for one don't expect to see too many non-creature spells in theis deck, making the new mogg conscripts a decent 1-drop.
Glacial Ray
Lava Spike
Sac Mountain Splice Spell
Crack The Earth
Genju
That seems to be all the spells you need. 22-23 Land with 15 spells leaves you with 22 creatures. Seems enough for the conscripts to me.
Genju
Flames of the Blood Hand
Yamabushi's Flame
Glacial Ray
Crack the earth
Lava Spike
which is 23 (only running 3 genju). 23 spells + 22 lands = 15 spaces for creatures. So a 1 in 4 chance of drawing a creature spell each turn. So out of your starting 7 cards plus your first turn draw you can expect 2 creatures. If you consider one of those is the cohort, that means that there is only one other creature to have him attack, and it could be as many as 4 turns before you draw anther creature. A 2/2 that attacks once and then does nothing for 3 turns is pretty bad in my book. I'd much rather run something that has synergy with the rest of the deck for my slots: Avalanchers, Zo-Zu (3), Raiders, Blizzard Herders. So yes, this deck is Akki Ponza/Burn I guess, but that's the way I like it.
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Different strokes for different folks i guess. I don't like flames myself, since it isn't arcane and isn't inexpensive. I don't really like Lava Spike either do to the lack of splice a/o spirit craft. My listing is more tempo based, and that's where conscripts shines
4 Glacial Ray
2 Yamabushi's Flame
4 Crack the Earth
3 Genju of the Spires
2 Torrent of Stone
4 God's Eye
19 Mountain
4 Akki Avalanchers
4 Frostling
3 Goblin Cohort
4 Akki Raider
4 Akki Blizzard Herder
3 Zo-Zu
That's my build, for what it's worth. With 22 creatures, Cohort works well for me. Torrent is great for killing South Tree Kodama, and helping me attack through for the kill. It seems our decks are very different, with yours being like Sped Red, with fewer creatures and more control and LD elements, while mine is a standard sligh build, with a heavy focus on curve. Best of luck to you,
Shane
Hm... the only differences I see between our decks is that you have +1 Mountain +3 Cohort +2 Torrent +4 Frostling, And I have +4 Flames of teh Blood Hand +2 Yamabushi's Flame +4 Lava Spike. Other than that the decks look identical. The difference between 22 and 23 lands is probably inconsequential, the real differences here are yours is more anti-creature while mine tries to throw huge ammounts of burn into the face.
Flames of the Blood Hand Vs. Torrent of Stone:
They both provide 4 damage. Flames of the blood hand hits players, torrent of stone hits creatures. The biggest difference is that Torrent is too pricey. At 4, with a splice cost that is nearly impossible to manage with only 8 other arcane spells and 12 other effects that sac your own lands, there is pretty much no situation under which you could cast it. Plus it can't sac the God's eye, which makes it even weaker. Being able to remove a blocker is great, but Flames takes a sizeable chunk out of the opposition's life and can't be stopped. It can also provide card advantage/keep them in death range by trumping their lifegain.
Lava Spike vs. Frostling:
Originally I was all for frostling, back when it could hit creatures and players. Hitting players is vital to this deck, as the board position doesn't matter if they're already dead. And with the overall toughnesses in this block being higher (especially with the inclusion of bushido), it becomes harder to kill things with fanatic-style creatures. And when you can't hit a player, that means his effect goes to waste. Plus Lava Spike is arcane, meaning glacial ray can splice onto it for additional damage, which is always a plus.
Cohort+1 Mountain Vs. Yamabushi's+2 FotBH:
Bascially if it comes down to a situational creature or versatile burn, I'll go with the burn. I know you already run 2, but a full set of four gives you a very good way to deal with pesky samurai or spirits, or launches 3 at the head in a pinch. Cohorts on the other hand, can go turns at a time not attacking and then just rolls over when the opposition drops a Samurai of the pale curtain. And while another land would probably be nice (and I may end up dropping 1-2 more 3 cost burn spells for mountains) I'm going to try for the massive burn strategy right now.
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Um, i play 22 creatures, you play 15. I'd say that's a major difference.
Would you mind not flaming all of my choices Wildfire? I would love hearing the merits of yours, but don't tell me how my cards are bad.
I prefer creatures, you prefer burn. The reason i'm running Torrent is to kill South tree Kodama 4 toughness blockers that stop my creatures in their tracks.
With only 4 splice spells, i don't like Lava Spike at all. I'd rather not waste a card for only 3 damage.
Flames seems inconsquential to me. I don't think anyone runs life gain spells anymore, so there's no CA in my book. Maybe a sideboard card against Shining Shoal, but I really don't like it otherwise.
I'm not sure how you deal 20 damage before running out of cards a/o life with your deck, if you cold please fill me in.
Also, wouldn't more land be better for splice tricks?
Looks like about time for me to bow out of this discussion. Best of luck!
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First off, I wasn't "flaming", I was pointing out why I chose the cards I did over the cards you chose.Flames and Lava spike seem inconsequential at first glance, but when the deck is repeatedly smashing face the extra damage they provide helps greatly to push them into the red zone. Flames also helps to answer the daunting question of Hondon of Cleansing Fire.
As for being able to rack up 20 damage before running out of cards, that seems easier in my build than yours, no offense intended. The slots in which you run situational creatures (Cohort) and creature-only burn (torrent and frostling) are in my build face-aimed burn spells (y's flame, FotBH, spike) which provide the finishing touches after trouncing all over them with disruptive goblins.
Though yes, with my multiple land saccing effects I may want to drop a 3 cost burn spell or two for a couple of extra mountains to be able to do things like splice a ray onto a spike/crack or drop herder and crack at the same time. Though with a Zo-Zu on the board dropping extra lands can be suicidal and this decreases the value of lands in hand significantly. Maybe if I had access to something like Seismic Assault, but no such luck.
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Most red decks in t2 now play, at most, 20 creatures, 4 of which are Arc-Sloggers. Arc-Slogger is just too good not to play in t2, especially since it's your main out against Affinity.
I will be surprised if *any* red decks in t2 play Goblin Cohort. I just don't think a true swarm approach is viable until Affinity rotates out. To stay in the game against Affinity, you have to pack so much removal that it's difficult to play enough creatures to consistently swing with the Cohort.
The possibility exists in Block that the Akki deck will take more of a swarm approach, in which case it could find a home. But Deadguy Red could afford to play only 4 real removal spells (Kindle) plus 4 pingers (Fireslingers) because it had Cursed Scrolls batting cleanup. There's nothing remotely equivalent to Fireslinger or Cursed Scroll in Block.
Mountain
Raging Goblin
Blazing Shoal
Myojin of Infinite Rage
Blazing Shoal
Myojin of Infinite Rage
Any 7th card
Something that could warrant inclusion however is the "Akki Blizzard-Herder":
1R, 1/1
When it leaves play, each player sacs a land.
Turn 2 Akki raider, turn three blizzard herder, crack the earth. They sac 2 lands, you sac a God's eye. Your Akki raider gets +3/+0 until end of turn and you get a 1/1 token in the process. Sick.
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If Spirit/Arcane decks see heavy play, expect to use Crackshot.
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If you just drop Shoals into a low-cc deck, 2 cards in hand in exchange for 2-3 direct damage, along with an unblocked attacker, is not that exciting ... you'd be better off ditching the Shoals and just playing something like Lava Spike that you can cast at any time regardless of the board situation. And my opinion of Lava Spike is not high except as a Glacial Ray carrier.
I guess testing will show just how important Arcane spells are in the red deck -- with just Crack the Earth and Glacial Ray, you have 8, which I think is fine. It's not like either spell is useless on its own.
I don't think Shoal's going to be the enduring chase rare that others seem to think it is.
Legendary Creature – Human Designer (MR)
Brian Tinsman, Set Designer can only be cast during the third set of a block.
When Brian Tinsman, Set Designer enters the battlefield, ignore all flavor and mechanics of the first two sets in the block.
"Ok so what do we have here... gothic horror? Scrap it. Expand the Devine Vs. Demonic duel deck to 244 cards and print it!"
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Legendary Creature – Human Designer (MR)
Brian Tinsman, Set Designer can only be cast during the third set of a block.
When Brian Tinsman, Set Designer enters the battlefield, ignore all flavor and mechanics of the first two sets in the block.
"Ok so what do we have here... gothic horror? Scrap it. Expand the Devine Vs. Demonic duel deck to 244 cards and print it!"
2/2
But back on topic. I suppose Crackshot may not be necessary SB, but it certainly can be useful as something that says "I have a big target on my head. But even taking me out via rend flesh/hideous laughter/horobi's whisper will cost you some life" against spirit/arcane decks. I'm not saying they have to be entirely spirit/arcane, but there are several (possible) decks out there worth playing using spirit/arcanes: Green Spirit Beatdown, Black Aggro-Control Spirit/Arcane, blue spirit skies, etc.
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well the blizzard herder comment is justified but in a sligh deck akki avalanchers really shine, you only need 5 land at max and turning any extra land into 2 extra damage to the dome is exactly what you want to do in a sligh deck, if you add in akki raiders it becomes even better.
what i want people in this thread to realize is that the thread is called "sligh in post-BoK CHK Block" and in case you didn't realize sligh is a speed red deck based on a lot of 1 drops, a slightly smaller amount of 2 drops, a small amount of 3/4 drops, a bit of burn, a bit of land D and as few lands as possible. If you're including cards like kumano or blazing shoal you're building a different type of deck namely big red or red beats or whatever you want to call it. Also this is a block thread so arcslogger is a must have in any red deck is not a valid comment.
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Any Block Sligh list played outside of the 0-2 bracket will have 4 Akki Avalanchers.
Blizzard-Herders are arguable, but Avalanchers? They're a given.
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In the other hand, I believe that Red/Black, Red/Green or Red/Blue could do very, very well...
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IMO ther eis MORE than enoughj to make a quality mono red sligh deck in block.
as for red/blue...its very good loaded with arcane and splice
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Glacial Ray
Lava Spike
Sac Mountain Splice Spell
Crack The Earth
Genju
That seems to be all the spells you need. 22-23 Land with 15 spells leaves you with 22 creatures. Seems enough for the conscripts to me.
Genju
Flames of the Blood Hand
Yamabushi's Flame
Glacial Ray
Crack the earth
Lava Spike
which is 23 (only running 3 genju). 23 spells + 22 lands = 15 spaces for creatures. So a 1 in 4 chance of drawing a creature spell each turn. So out of your starting 7 cards plus your first turn draw you can expect 2 creatures. If you consider one of those is the cohort, that means that there is only one other creature to have him attack, and it could be as many as 4 turns before you draw anther creature. A 2/2 that attacks once and then does nothing for 3 turns is pretty bad in my book. I'd much rather run something that has synergy with the rest of the deck for my slots: Avalanchers, Zo-Zu (3), Raiders, Blizzard Herders. So yes, this deck is Akki Ponza/Burn I guess, but that's the way I like it.
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4 Glacial Ray
2 Yamabushi's Flame
4 Crack the Earth
3 Genju of the Spires
2 Torrent of Stone
4 God's Eye
19 Mountain
4 Akki Avalanchers
4 Frostling
3 Goblin Cohort
4 Akki Raider
4 Akki Blizzard Herder
3 Zo-Zu
That's my build, for what it's worth. With 22 creatures, Cohort works well for me. Torrent is great for killing South Tree Kodama, and helping me attack through for the kill. It seems our decks are very different, with yours being like Sped Red, with fewer creatures and more control and LD elements, while mine is a standard sligh build, with a heavy focus on curve. Best of luck to you,
Shane
Flames of the Blood Hand Vs. Torrent of Stone:
They both provide 4 damage. Flames of the blood hand hits players, torrent of stone hits creatures. The biggest difference is that Torrent is too pricey. At 4, with a splice cost that is nearly impossible to manage with only 8 other arcane spells and 12 other effects that sac your own lands, there is pretty much no situation under which you could cast it. Plus it can't sac the God's eye, which makes it even weaker. Being able to remove a blocker is great, but Flames takes a sizeable chunk out of the opposition's life and can't be stopped. It can also provide card advantage/keep them in death range by trumping their lifegain.
Lava Spike vs. Frostling:
Originally I was all for frostling, back when it could hit creatures and players. Hitting players is vital to this deck, as the board position doesn't matter if they're already dead. And with the overall toughnesses in this block being higher (especially with the inclusion of bushido), it becomes harder to kill things with fanatic-style creatures. And when you can't hit a player, that means his effect goes to waste. Plus Lava Spike is arcane, meaning glacial ray can splice onto it for additional damage, which is always a plus.
Cohort+1 Mountain Vs. Yamabushi's+2 FotBH:
Bascially if it comes down to a situational creature or versatile burn, I'll go with the burn. I know you already run 2, but a full set of four gives you a very good way to deal with pesky samurai or spirits, or launches 3 at the head in a pinch. Cohorts on the other hand, can go turns at a time not attacking and then just rolls over when the opposition drops a Samurai of the pale curtain. And while another land would probably be nice (and I may end up dropping 1-2 more 3 cost burn spells for mountains) I'm going to try for the massive burn strategy right now.
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Would you mind not flaming all of my choices Wildfire? I would love hearing the merits of yours, but don't tell me how my cards are bad.
I prefer creatures, you prefer burn. The reason i'm running Torrent is to kill South tree Kodama 4 toughness blockers that stop my creatures in their tracks.
With only 4 splice spells, i don't like Lava Spike at all. I'd rather not waste a card for only 3 damage.
Flames seems inconsquential to me. I don't think anyone runs life gain spells anymore, so there's no CA in my book. Maybe a sideboard card against Shining Shoal, but I really don't like it otherwise.
I'm not sure how you deal 20 damage before running out of cards a/o life with your deck, if you cold please fill me in.
Also, wouldn't more land be better for splice tricks?
As for being able to rack up 20 damage before running out of cards, that seems easier in my build than yours, no offense intended. The slots in which you run situational creatures (Cohort) and creature-only burn (torrent and frostling) are in my build face-aimed burn spells (y's flame, FotBH, spike) which provide the finishing touches after trouncing all over them with disruptive goblins.
Though yes, with my multiple land saccing effects I may want to drop a 3 cost burn spell or two for a couple of extra mountains to be able to do things like splice a ray onto a spike/crack or drop herder and crack at the same time. Though with a Zo-Zu on the board dropping extra lands can be suicidal and this decreases the value of lands in hand significantly. Maybe if I had access to something like Seismic Assault, but no such luck.
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