OK firstly, this is my first time posting, be easy on me. Secondly, i apologise profusely if somebody has had this idea and i just didn't take long enough to find it.
OK, on to the idea.
Ninjutsu returns an unblocked attacker to hand to put the ninja into play, we know this now. The idea i had was, why does the attacker need to leave without dealing damage first? If you have , say, a Kitsume Blademaster attacking turn 4, let first strike damage go on the stack, then use ninjutsu, the ninja will still come in and deal it's own damage as per usual. Sounds like a pretty solid combat phase on turn 4.
It is just an idea, probably one that everyone thought as obvious, but wondering what everyone thinks of it?
I don't think you can work the stack that way. I believe all damage is done at once so when you shifted the ninja in it would instead do no damage and not trigger its affect.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
RnD during Time Spiral:
Rosewater: "Color Pie, WTF is that, If I want Black to be able to wrath, counter and have green creatures then I will damnit!"
Random RnD guy: "RED AKORMA! FTW!"
Gleemax: "Rosewater has broken out of my mind control!"
RnD after 2008:
MaRo: Hmm how do we fix the problems of pricing with cards like Tarmogoyf and Thoughtsieze
Random RnD Guy: OO lets make a new RED RARITY SYMBOL!
MARO: OMGWTFBBQ! Thats a great idea, we'll call it Mythic Rarity!
Gleemax: NOT AGAIN! CELEB
Hey, not a bad idea. It's something that had passed through my mind but only fleetingly. My favorite use of ninjistu though has to be returning a creature like ball lightning after it deals damage.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My Moderator Helpdesk
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish EDH Cube
Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!
I had not noticed that, very nice. Bigest problem for constructed though is that first strike creatures are very white and ninjutsu is not. This means that it prob wont be an amazing trick in constructed, though I could see it coming in very usefull in a W/U or W/B limited deck.
I'm hoping for a rat with ninjutsu :1mana::symb: that has a cmc to cast. This would be very playable in constucted . . . why? . . . because I think 3rd turn Patron of the Nezumi would be fairly good, even against affinity.
EDIT:
Quote from paranoid »
It simply doesn't work. I can't really explain it since I don't know where it says so in the rulebook but I do know that it doesn't work... Sadly because it would've been sweet...
It does work, because the creature is a different creature it will work. What doesn't work is when you give a creature first stike, let it do its damage, remove first strike and expect it to do the damage again.
the ball lightening is the best trick i have seen yet, but its rather anoying as it costs RRRU/BX depending on the ninja used, which makes it rather tough and ugly.
It simply doesn't work. I can't really explain it since I don't know where it says so in the rulebook but I do know that it doesn't work... Sadly because it would've been sweet...
It works just fine w/ first strike creatures. This is because first strike damage goes on the stack. You then can respond (w/ ninjutsu). Then it resolves despite the fact that the original creature is gone. Then the "normal strike" damage is put on the stack for every creature that hasn't done damage yet (such as the ninja that was just brought in).... the ninja gets to deal damage as well as the first strike creature that left.
This does not work for a non-first/double strike creature (whether or not the ninja has first-strike doesn't matter).
At least unless the official ninjutsu rules bring ins something really weird exceptions.
Well when I said ball lightning I meant any creature of that type. Spark elemental is quite good for this, as no one really wants to lose a creature blocking him only to take trample anyways. Plus it only costs R. So you could technically go turn two spark elemental, after damage gate it for the mist shinobi, turn three spark elemental, after/before damage gate it for ninja of the deep hours.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My Moderator Helpdesk
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish EDH Cube
Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!
Basicly when it comes to limited (sealed/draft) ninjas are best as a combination combat trick + card advantage engine. Esentially if your opponent tries to off an unblocked attacker you can get 3 for 1 card advantage (counter their card, get the damage effect of the ninja, and have the ninja on the board). Throat slitter is one of the best for limited, as it destroys things.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My Moderator Helpdesk
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish EDH Cube
Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!
Expect John Carter to discuss Ninjutsu rules in tomorrow's column. I assume all of these questions will be answered.
Hopefully, He'll post the comprehensive rules for Ninjutsu.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Mafia MVP Harry Potter Mafia!
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
The reason people are thinking FS doesnt work because of previous examples like attacking with an equipment like dachi and then shattering after first strike damage is on the stack to deal regular damage.
However ninjas change something in the fact they are not treated as replacing the attacking creature, but as a totally new entity that is already attacking. This means yes you can cause FS damage with the 1st creature and regular with the ninja.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Online trading... its like trading in real life except you dont need pants"
- Me, Nov 20th 2003
yes, and the same can be said with a double-striker as well...
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Brian Tinsman, Set Designer :?mana::snow::snow:
Legendary Creature – Human Designer (MR)
Brian Tinsman, Set Designer can only be cast during the third set of a block.
When Brian Tinsman, Set Designer enters the battlefield, ignore all flavor and mechanics of the first two sets in the block. "Ok so what do we have here... gothic horror? Scrap it. Expand the Devine Vs. Demonic duel deck to 244 cards and print it!"
2/2
Soratami Mirror-Guard has nice synergy with Ninjas (making creatures unblockable and all.) It can even make Witness unblockable so she can return to your hand when you ninjitsu. But that seems a little convoluted.
I see mono-blue ninjas+soratami or mono-black ninjas+rats as most likely
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm a mathematics postdoc researching evolution and complex systems. Learn about these ideas here!
We have an answer to the Ninjutsu question! Yes, we can puff in a Ninja after First Strike resolves. Joy!
This gives U/W Weenies an extra edge in viability. Everyone stroke extraordinarily long imaginary beards, then hmm and hawww reflectively!
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If there was a way to get Magic for free, do you really think I'd have spent so much time sacrificing children to my dark gods? For cards, I mean. Obviously there'd still be sacrifices. A hobby's a hobby.
for all the geniuses out there this works
and for those who were right good job
agure, the still wind...
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Asking people to remove quotes in their signatures is tyranny! If I can't say something just because someone's feelings are hurt then no one would ever be able to say anything! Political correctness is stupid.
This is interesting...so, I wonder, can I do this?
Attack with Ninja of the Deep Hours equipped with Nodachi
No Blocks
4 First Strike Damage, I draw a card
Pay 2UU, Ninjutsu out Higure, the Still Wind
Pay R, tap Shinka, the Bloodsoaked Keep to give Higure First Strike
3 First Strike Damage, I search for Mistblade Shinobi
Pay U, Ninjutsu out Mistblade Shinobi
1 Damage, return a creature to their hand
A nice little 3-hit combo. Or would it not be possible because the first strike step has already ended by the time Higure comes out? Someone let me know about this, please.
yes first strike damage is only done once, so the higure would deal damage, but you would not be able to search out another ninja and nijutsu it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Formerly corn hulio.
Hopefully i will have a swelling of pride sometime soon..........
If you dont get that, look at my username, and if you still dont get it, than your to young to have an account on here without your parents permission, YOU ARE A BAD LITTLE CHILD!!!!
Guys, WotC said themselves that it works. They addressed it all with Saturday School. Quoted from the official website so you all stop saying it doesn't work:
Q: I was wondering for what period of time does a creature count as an "unblocked attacker?" Does this classification begin during the declare blockers step or following it? Does it end once the creature deals it's combat damage or at the end of the combat phase? Regarding the ninjutsu ability, will it be possible to return an "unblocked attacker" to hand after first strike damage is on the stack? If so, will the ninja still do damage when regular combat damage goes on the stack? --Michael L.
A: A creature is unblocked from the time blockers are declared until the combat phase ends (or it otherwise leaves combat). This includes the declare blockers, combat damage, and end of combat steps.
Returning a first strike creature after first strike is on the stack will allow the first striker to deal combat damage and the ninja will deal its damage as normal during the remaining combat damage step.
*Extra* Yes, this means giving Higure, the Still Wind first strike means you can first strike with Higure, resolve his “search for a Ninja” ability, and ninjutsu that Ninja out via an unblocked creature (such as Higure) to deal damage.
I'd recommend that at the prerelease you kill attackers before you declare blockers (or Ninja tricks will be abound).
Thanks for your quick replies and (generally) the time you took to read my post. I wonder if there will be any other blue ninjas besides the four that have already been previewed...I doubt it, but that would be nice...
OK, on to the idea.
Ninjutsu returns an unblocked attacker to hand to put the ninja into play, we know this now. The idea i had was, why does the attacker need to leave without dealing damage first? If you have , say, a Kitsume Blademaster attacking turn 4, let first strike damage go on the stack, then use ninjutsu, the ninja will still come in and deal it's own damage as per usual. Sounds like a pretty solid combat phase on turn 4.
It is just an idea, probably one that everyone thought as obvious, but wondering what everyone thinks of it?
Al
Ps. Nice forums guys.
Rosewater: "Color Pie, WTF is that, If I want Black to be able to wrath, counter and have green creatures then I will damnit!"
Random RnD guy: "RED AKORMA! FTW!"
Gleemax: "Rosewater has broken out of my mind control!"
RnD after 2008:
MaRo: Hmm how do we fix the problems of pricing with cards like Tarmogoyf and Thoughtsieze
Random RnD Guy: OO lets make a new RED RARITY SYMBOL!
MARO: OMGWTFBBQ! Thats a great idea, we'll call it Mythic Rarity!
Gleemax: NOT AGAIN!
CELEB
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish
EDH Cube
Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!
I'm hoping for a rat with ninjutsu :1mana::symb: that has a cmc to cast. This would be very playable in constucted . . . why? . . . because I think 3rd turn Patron of the Nezumi would be fairly good, even against affinity.
EDIT:
It does work, because the creature is a different creature it will work. What doesn't work is when you give a creature first stike, let it do its damage, remove first strike and expect it to do the damage again.
battle is its own purpose. You don’t
ask why a plague spreads or a field
burns. Don’t ask why I fight.
It works just fine w/ first strike creatures. This is because first strike damage goes on the stack. You then can respond (w/ ninjutsu). Then it resolves despite the fact that the original creature is gone. Then the "normal strike" damage is put on the stack for every creature that hasn't done damage yet (such as the ninja that was just brought in).... the ninja gets to deal damage as well as the first strike creature that left.
This does not work for a non-first/double strike creature (whether or not the ninja has first-strike doesn't matter).
At least unless the official ninjutsu rules bring ins something really weird exceptions.
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish
EDH Cube
Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!
Ninja's, First strikers, etc etc. Trying to think about the new cards a little before i attend my first paper pre release.
Al
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=2045
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish
EDH Cube
Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!
Hopefully, He'll post the comprehensive rules for Ninjutsu.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
However ninjas change something in the fact they are not treated as replacing the attacking creature, but as a totally new entity that is already attacking. This means yes you can cause FS damage with the 1st creature and regular with the ninja.
- Me, Nov 20th 2003
Legendary Creature – Human Designer (MR)
Brian Tinsman, Set Designer can only be cast during the third set of a block.
When Brian Tinsman, Set Designer enters the battlefield, ignore all flavor and mechanics of the first two sets in the block.
"Ok so what do we have here... gothic horror? Scrap it. Expand the Devine Vs. Demonic duel deck to 244 cards and print it!"
2/2
I see mono-blue ninjas+soratami or mono-black ninjas+rats as most likely
This gives U/W Weenies an extra edge in viability. Everyone stroke extraordinarily long imaginary beards, then hmm and hawww reflectively!
for all the geniuses out there this works
and for those who were right good job
agure, the still wind...
Attack with Ninja of the Deep Hours equipped with Nodachi
No Blocks
4 First Strike Damage, I draw a card
Pay 2UU, Ninjutsu out Higure, the Still Wind
Pay R, tap Shinka, the Bloodsoaked Keep to give Higure First Strike
3 First Strike Damage, I search for Mistblade Shinobi
Pay U, Ninjutsu out Mistblade Shinobi
1 Damage, return a creature to their hand
A nice little 3-hit combo. Or would it not be possible because the first strike step has already ended by the time Higure comes out? Someone let me know about this, please.
森内葵
祇園精舎の鐘の聲、
諸行無常の響あり。
娑羅雙樹の花の色、
盛者必衰のことわりをあらはす。
おごれる人も久しからず、
唯春の夜の夢のごとし。
たけき者も遂にほろびぬ、
偏に風の前の塵に同じ。
Hopefully i will have a swelling of pride sometime soon..........
If you dont get that, look at my username, and if you still dont get it, than your to young to have an account on here without your parents permission, YOU ARE A BAD LITTLE CHILD!!!!
森内葵
祇園精舎の鐘の聲、
諸行無常の響あり。
娑羅雙樹の花の色、
盛者必衰のことわりをあらはす。
おごれる人も久しからず、
唯春の夜の夢のごとし。
たけき者も遂にほろびぬ、
偏に風の前の塵に同じ。
Ahh...I'm illiterate today. Sorry about that spazzing.
No, you can't keep the loop going, because once first strike damage resolves, it won't happen again.
森内葵
祇園精舎の鐘の聲、
諸行無常の響あり。
娑羅雙樹の花の色、
盛者必衰のことわりをあらはす。
おごれる人も久しからず、
唯春の夜の夢のごとし。
たけき者も遂にほろびぬ、
偏に風の前の塵に同じ。