oh yeah and big red can deal with the soilshaper+eradicate combo too... although itll cost em a burn spell... oh well, its worth losing a burn spell to save all your lands right?
oh yeah and big red can deal with the soilshaper+eradicate combo too... although itll cost em a burn spell...
Well, with the mighty Slogger down, it would cost at most the measly price of 20 library cards.
Of course, for 10 you could off the soilshaper first...:D
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I think the problem for TnN will be that Eradicate, Quash, Extraction, Sowing Salt and even occasionally Splinter are a problem for it, and because these spells span 4 colors, it will give weapons to nearly every contending deck. Tooth will not die, but if it doesn't pick up some new stuff from Betrayers, it will suffer. I could definitely see it splashing blue in the future to survive.
If anyone ran Quash, Cranial Extraction, Sowing Salt, and Eradicate maindeck against tooth and nail, they'd have no room left for a win condition
personally, i think that shaman-nail is the way to go, with sachi and patron of the orochi, and lightning greaves and Kira, Great Glass-Spinner against Eradicate.
I was actually testing shaman tooth and nail. It is slightly worse then regular but I guess you could also splash other colors more easily (using orochi leafcaller)
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2th and Nail is a fun deck to play. I liked Elf and Nail I like Vernal Bloom 2th I like 12 Post and Urza's 2th. The good thing about Tooth as Cranial Extraction players found out, it can win without tooth and nail. It can win without cloudpost or Urzatron. So far the deck is built to do well against affinity (and I don't agree with the person that said 2th loses to affinity because it doesn't most of the time.) I like Black/Green 2th with Vampires and Dragons and an extraction of my own, but UG w/ Rude Awakening will be good too. Boseiju is out there in most 2th Sides already if not maindecked. I don't see Quash/Sowing salt doing much since 2th usually accelerates mana faster than a deck playing Sowing salt and can Boseiju protect against Quash. The Black /Green tooth can even Cranial Extraction Sowing Salt (a sort of Meddling Mage attack against the Red deck.)
I like Tooth and Nail. I hope it's around for a while. I hope it's good in extended. Even if it isn't I'll probably still play it.,,,
Hmmmm. But I wouldn't mind playing a red green version of Tooth and Nail with Sowing Salt and Plow under and Reap and Sows plus Sundering Titan. that might be a fun approach to it and give it some burn against specific decktypes.
Holy cow sowing salt resolving with an urztatron targeted will spell destruction for TnN. Making 8 other cards in the deck a liability is going to HURT.
Maybe BoK will have some mana accell to SB against sowing salt.
I hope it does happen though, I'd love to be able to get some DCs and TnNs cheaper.
I myself am a TnN player, and the only card I see stopping tooth is Sowing Salt. However, It only really stops the slighty faster mono G urzatron version. It will hurt the Cloudpost one but not as much as say Extraction did.
And RG freshmaker, the 3rd Tier one deck IMO, can easily use sowing salt, so it will be used.
T&N isn't going away compleatly, if sowing salt is the only thing that could hurt it, then watch out for red decks, but by the time the opponet can play it, you may have used T&N (it requires 4 mana)
1. There is one Tier 1 deck right now: Affinity. I have talked to people that play Urza Tooth, 12Post Tooth and Shaman Tooth and they ALL agree that Tooth is no longer tier 1. WW, Tooth, Big Red, BG Cloud and RG Freshmaker make up tier 2 (not necessarily in that order).
2. For the third time, Sowing Salt is a LOT more potent weapon against Tooth than Cranial Extraction. Taking out a spell is one thing, but taking away the ability to pay for the spell is much worse.
3. Hokori barely affects Tooth. Ok, so if they don't get turn-4 TNN, they have to wait till around turn 7 to untap all the lands they need for it. They'll still have STE's, Solemns, and maybe Sachi/Leafcaller to block, and if they have Sachi, they have mana too. WW's best weapon against Tooth is Worship, especially against the builds that don't run Naturalize. (Now they just need a way to keep O-Stone off the board)
1. There is one Tier 1 deck right now: Affinity. I have talked to people that play Urza Tooth, 12Post Tooth and Shaman Tooth and they ALL agree that Tooth is no longer tier 1. WW, Tooth, Big Red, BG Cloud and RG Freshmaker make up tier 2 (not necessarily in that order).
2. For the third time, Sowing Salt is a LOT more potent weapon against Tooth than Cranial Extraction. Taking out a spell is one thing, but taking away the ability to pay for the spell is much worse.
3. Hokori barely affects Tooth. Ok, so if they don't get turn-4 TNN, they have to wait till around turn 7 to untap all the lands they need for it. They'll still have STE's, Solemns, and maybe Sachi/Leafcaller to block, and if they have Sachi, they have mana too. WW's best weapon against Tooth is Worship, especially against the builds that don't run Naturalize. (Now they just need a way to keep O-Stone off the board)
Well IMO, Tier one consists of three decks, that have a sort of rock,paper, scissors effect on eachother. Tooth < RG <(sometimes)< Affinity < Tooth.
Yes Sowing salt is stronger, but only against Urzatron landbases. I know The ratio of tron to posts is 7:3 however, that doesn't mean tooth won't change.
The reprinting of the Eradicate cycle in BoK certainly seems at first glance quite ominous for Tooth and Nail. After all, Tooth is fundamentally a combo deck, the goal of which is to amass 7GG as quickly as humanly possible and then do something really broken with it. Thus removing from the deck any piece of that combo, whether the mana or the namesake card itself, is incredibly attractive to those of us who dislike facing down 11/11 trample indestructibles on turn 4. Nevertheless, R&D will have to go alot farther than Eradicate & Co. to hose Tooth or even create a sizeable disturbance in its match-ups. The reason is primarily one of context. Let us consider:
In order to do any good, the new Betrayers cards must be inserted into a good deck; simply running around with a 4 color "Tooth Destroying Wonder" isn't going to win you a lot of games. In the current T2 environment, there are several Tier 1 or 2 decks playable at the tournament level.
The first, of course, is Affinity. Anyone who says that their deck beats ravager "all the time" is either delusional or at best playing against sub-par affinity players. Nevertheless, Tooth with a suite of artifact hate and platinum angel wins with a fair degree of consistency. Furthermore, this match-up will barely change with the printing of Betrayers; Ravager is hardly going to slow itself down by siding into sowing salt when it could just kill you absurdly fast.
That having been said, there are only 2 decks that consistently kill Tooth in the current metagame: KCI and R/G land destruction. Ponza is, at least against Tooth, strictly worse than R/G due to its lack of Witnesses and Plow Under, a difference which is usually sufficient to allow a T&N victory. Blue-anything has a fundamental problem with Tooth in that, due to Boseju, its win condition is uncounterable. Black, of course, has Extraction, but this has not slowed T&N down significantly due to, as has been afore said, the later deck's ability to drop a huge threat (e.g. Sundering Titan) even without its namesake card.
Thus the problem with the new cards becomes evident; MB or B/G, even with the addition of Eradicate, isn't that much better against Tooth; Eradicate is only good against resolved threats, and anyone who thinks they're going to be casting that after a titan or two has been dropped is likely to be sorely disappointed. Quash faces the same problem as any other counter, and thus won't really change the match-up severely; Tooth players will simply play around counters the same way they always have, then cast Tooth off a Boseju. Finally, Sowing Salt, the best of the cycle against Tooth, will by necessity go into R/G, a deck which already has a favorable match-up against Tooth*. Furthermore, the addition of even more LD doesn't prevent the Tooth player from, say, siding into green beatdown (possibly with the addition of Iwamori after Betrayers) and simply killing you before you play the Slogger. Finally, KCI faces the same general situation as Affinity and would find it difficult to splash for any double colored spell even if it was worth the consistency loss.
Therefore, Tooth and Nail is not doomed, nor will it even suffer with much consistency in the new T2. The only possibility I see for a significant "screw Tooth" format is if someone were to construct a Tier 1 or 2 B/R deck capable of beating Affinity consistently, surviving Plow Unders from green decks, and shutting down Tooth before a Titan can resolve. Its theoretically possible of course, but I have yet to see anything like a workable execution.
*Or Ponza/BigRed/RDW, of course, but the same arguement applies; Tooth has a number of sideboardable outs, and running Sowing Salt in the main is unlikely since it, well, isn't good against any other matchup.
Well, once again, I run in the defense of 3 color-control and its close cousin, B/G Cloud. I've seen these decks destroy affinity in a most cruel fashion, either with the ultra-focused version featuring 4 Clouds and 4 Kokusho, or with the janky version played by the Washington State Champ. I actually play an overhaul on the later deck in FNM, and boy have I disintegrated affinity!!
...Though I might agree with AlatarIstarion in the fact that about half of them have been subpar affinity players, the deck itself is so powerful that mediocre builds AND disastrous sideboards still manage pull out victories, I remember quite clearly a couple Affinity players sacrificing their ravagers and puting counters around when my Horobi hit the floor.:banghead:
What this cycle signals for me is that there are decks that are becoming increasingly difficult to play (Affinity and T&N) and decks that are becoming increasingly easy to assemble and win with (Big red and Death Cloud). In my game place, playing Affinity has become so stressful that almost nobody is playing it -and I can't blame them, who would like to sit down and hold a barrage of hatred, both in cards and attitude, towards their deck? And T&N players were already having fits with Cranial extraction, LD and briberies.
One last thing: Sowing Salt is not necessarily dead in non-tooth matches, it deals with one of the most annoying nonbasics (Blinkmoth Nexus), it takes the Boseijus out of the counter-weary decks (specially useful if Obliterate-March becomes top tier), it takes artifact lands in large clumps (if the ravager ain't there, that is ) and in the very extreme, shrugs off the indestructible citadel.
Does that mean it should be maindeck? Probably not, but it sure sounds good in sideboards.
In fact, I believe the only card in the cycle that could go maindeck is Eradicate
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I will conceed that Tooth will never die in standard without the banning of the the card Tooth and Nail, but I do think that people are taking the huge amount of hate simultaneously entering the metagame too lightly. Of course, nobody will run maindeck Tooth hate, mostly because those slots are reserved for the far more ineffective but mandatory attempts to bash ravager, but if it is unable to play games 2 and 3 due to powerful sideboard techs, it will be weakened significantly. And if any Tooth deck I ever play runs maindeck Buseijus, I will laugh very hard as it sits around as a wasted draw that deals them lots of unnecessary damage and doesn't produce green.
T&N will have a much harder time surviving but I dont think the reprint will kill it, just hurt it alot..
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Yes, it will die. A good deck for about 6 months though. Pretty soon we will forget about it, but then some one will play it and no one will expect it and they will all lose.
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I really don't understand this type of conclusion:
i do believe that T&N decks will be doomed if the reprints come. so now i have to dispose of my T&N deck!!!
Yes, it will die.
It seems to me to be panic of a rather unsubstantiated nature. Now, you may be right and i may be wrong (see above post regarding my thoughts on Tooth after BoK), but if you think tooth will die, tell me why! Many of the arguements in this thread appear akin to the following logic:
FACT: Oxidize is really good artifact destruction!
FACT: Affinity is an artifact-heavy deck
CONCLUSION: Affinity scoops to oxidize
See how this logic is flawed? The same thing applies to Tooth and these reprints
Good reasoning, and I do agree with you somewhat, but its putting it on the edge... tooth is more hurt by the reprints then ravager is by oxidise..
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Actually, I would maintain that the only reprint which hurts Tooth more than oxidize hurts affinity is Sowing Salt. Extraction is already legal, yet tooth lives; Quash isn't particularilly good when Boseju is in play; and Eradicate is only helpful after they cast a tooth and nail, and casting spells after 2x Titan or Titan/Kiki-jiki resolves is somewhat difficult. Especially when they do it on turn four. And as far as Sowing Salt is concerned, it has to (obviously) go into a red deck, a matchup already difficult for Tooth (RG-Land Destruction or Ponza, that is), thereby affecting the metagame very little (i.e., Tooth still beats the decks it beats now and has a tough time against the decks it often loses to now). And if that doesn't convince you tooth-skeptics, i leave you with a quotation from earlier in this thread:
Quote from ButteBlues19 »
Don't expect Tooth and Nail to die because of a couple of 4 casting-cost sorceries that are nigh-to-unplayable thanks to the tempo we're forced to play at because of Affinity.
If everything went by the "If a hoser's printed, a deck will die." rule, Affinity would have died with March of the Machines and Hum of the Radix.
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Well, with the mighty Slogger down, it would cost at most the measly price of 20 library cards.
Of course, for 10 you could off the soilshaper first...:D
"When you show up to the Mirrodin Besieged Prerelease, you'll be asked to choose a faction: Mirran, Phyrexian, or Jaded A-Hole" Aaron Forsythe, on Twitter
Everything changes, nothing remains without a change - Buddha
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personally, i think that shaman-nail is the way to go, with sachi and patron of the orochi, and lightning greaves and Kira, Great Glass-Spinner against Eradicate.
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I like Tooth and Nail. I hope it's around for a while. I hope it's good in extended. Even if it isn't I'll probably still play it.,,,
Hmmmm. But I wouldn't mind playing a red green version of Tooth and Nail with Sowing Salt and Plow under and Reap and Sows plus Sundering Titan. that might be a fun approach to it and give it some burn against specific decktypes.
Maybe BoK will have some mana accell to SB against sowing salt.
I hope it does happen though, I'd love to be able to get some DCs and TnNs cheaper.
--Fingers Crossed Spikey
And RG freshmaker, the 3rd Tier one deck IMO, can easily use sowing salt, so it will be used.
2. For the third time, Sowing Salt is a LOT more potent weapon against Tooth than Cranial Extraction. Taking out a spell is one thing, but taking away the ability to pay for the spell is much worse.
3. Hokori barely affects Tooth. Ok, so if they don't get turn-4 TNN, they have to wait till around turn 7 to untap all the lands they need for it. They'll still have STE's, Solemns, and maybe Sachi/Leafcaller to block, and if they have Sachi, they have mana too. WW's best weapon against Tooth is Worship, especially against the builds that don't run Naturalize. (Now they just need a way to keep O-Stone off the board)
Well IMO, Tier one consists of three decks, that have a sort of rock,paper, scissors effect on eachother. Tooth < RG <(sometimes)< Affinity < Tooth.
Yes Sowing salt is stronger, but only against Urzatron landbases. I know The ratio of tron to posts is 7:3 however, that doesn't mean tooth won't change.
I agree with your final statement 100%.
In order to do any good, the new Betrayers cards must be inserted into a good deck; simply running around with a 4 color "Tooth Destroying Wonder" isn't going to win you a lot of games. In the current T2 environment, there are several Tier 1 or 2 decks playable at the tournament level.
The first, of course, is Affinity. Anyone who says that their deck beats ravager "all the time" is either delusional or at best playing against sub-par affinity players. Nevertheless, Tooth with a suite of artifact hate and platinum angel wins with a fair degree of consistency. Furthermore, this match-up will barely change with the printing of Betrayers; Ravager is hardly going to slow itself down by siding into sowing salt when it could just kill you absurdly fast.
That having been said, there are only 2 decks that consistently kill Tooth in the current metagame: KCI and R/G land destruction. Ponza is, at least against Tooth, strictly worse than R/G due to its lack of Witnesses and Plow Under, a difference which is usually sufficient to allow a T&N victory. Blue-anything has a fundamental problem with Tooth in that, due to Boseju, its win condition is uncounterable. Black, of course, has Extraction, but this has not slowed T&N down significantly due to, as has been afore said, the later deck's ability to drop a huge threat (e.g. Sundering Titan) even without its namesake card.
Thus the problem with the new cards becomes evident; MB or B/G, even with the addition of Eradicate, isn't that much better against Tooth; Eradicate is only good against resolved threats, and anyone who thinks they're going to be casting that after a titan or two has been dropped is likely to be sorely disappointed. Quash faces the same problem as any other counter, and thus won't really change the match-up severely; Tooth players will simply play around counters the same way they always have, then cast Tooth off a Boseju. Finally, Sowing Salt, the best of the cycle against Tooth, will by necessity go into R/G, a deck which already has a favorable match-up against Tooth*. Furthermore, the addition of even more LD doesn't prevent the Tooth player from, say, siding into green beatdown (possibly with the addition of Iwamori after Betrayers) and simply killing you before you play the Slogger. Finally, KCI faces the same general situation as Affinity and would find it difficult to splash for any double colored spell even if it was worth the consistency loss.
Therefore, Tooth and Nail is not doomed, nor will it even suffer with much consistency in the new T2. The only possibility I see for a significant "screw Tooth" format is if someone were to construct a Tier 1 or 2 B/R deck capable of beating Affinity consistently, surviving Plow Unders from green decks, and shutting down Tooth before a Titan can resolve. Its theoretically possible of course, but I have yet to see anything like a workable execution.
*Or Ponza/BigRed/RDW, of course, but the same arguement applies; Tooth has a number of sideboardable outs, and running Sowing Salt in the main is unlikely since it, well, isn't good against any other matchup.
...Though I might agree with AlatarIstarion in the fact that about half of them have been subpar affinity players, the deck itself is so powerful that mediocre builds AND disastrous sideboards still manage pull out victories, I remember quite clearly a couple Affinity players sacrificing their ravagers and puting counters around when my Horobi hit the floor.:banghead:
What this cycle signals for me is that there are decks that are becoming increasingly difficult to play (Affinity and T&N) and decks that are becoming increasingly easy to assemble and win with (Big red and Death Cloud). In my game place, playing Affinity has become so stressful that almost nobody is playing it -and I can't blame them, who would like to sit down and hold a barrage of hatred, both in cards and attitude, towards their deck? And T&N players were already having fits with Cranial extraction, LD and briberies.
One last thing: Sowing Salt is not necessarily dead in non-tooth matches, it deals with one of the most annoying nonbasics (Blinkmoth Nexus), it takes the Boseijus out of the counter-weary decks (specially useful if Obliterate-March becomes top tier), it takes artifact lands in large clumps (if the ravager ain't there, that is ) and in the very extreme, shrugs off the indestructible citadel.
Does that mean it should be maindeck? Probably not, but it sure sounds good in sideboards.
In fact, I believe the only card in the cycle that could go maindeck is Eradicate
"When you show up to the Mirrodin Besieged Prerelease, you'll be asked to choose a faction: Mirran, Phyrexian, or Jaded A-Hole" Aaron Forsythe, on Twitter
Everything changes, nothing remains without a change - Buddha
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HHEHEHEHE I wish.
It seems to me to be panic of a rather unsubstantiated nature. Now, you may be right and i may be wrong (see above post regarding my thoughts on Tooth after BoK), but if you think tooth will die, tell me why! Many of the arguements in this thread appear akin to the following logic:
FACT: Oxidize is really good artifact destruction!
FACT: Affinity is an artifact-heavy deck
CONCLUSION: Affinity scoops to oxidize
See how this logic is flawed? The same thing applies to Tooth and these reprints
[thread=41221][my extendo sig][/thread] [thread=56664][moderator helpdesk][/thread] [Pen and Paper Inn]
Just add me on msn if you have any questions or just want to talk