I wouldnt call Surveil a card advantage mechanic. You still have the same exact number of cards at the end of the day, especially if you don't even want to mill them.
I wouldnt call Surveil a card advantage mechanic. You still have the same exact number of cards at the end of the day, especially if you don't even want to mill them.
And yet Surveil and Scry are considered card advantage not due to quantity but due to quality - by filtering away cards you don't want right now, it helps you get to the cards you do need. Already have enough land? Look at the top and toss it aside if it's a land, getting you closer to a threat or removal.
People generally look at each scry and surveil as about half a card draw, so if you activate this twice, it should give you card advantage by not drawing a dead card.
I wouldnt call Surveil a card advantage mechanic. You still have the same exact number of cards at the end of the day, especially if you don't even want to mill them.
And yet Surveil and Scry are considered card advantage not due to quantity but due to quality - by filtering away cards you don't want right now, it helps you get to the cards you do need. Already have enough land? Look at the top and toss it aside if it's a land, getting you closer to a threat or removal.
People generally look at each scry and surveil as about half a card draw, so if you activate this twice, it should give you card advantage by not drawing a dead card.
You are confusing card advantage with card filtering and even then it barely does that, since with a "draw then discard" effect, you always filter deep down the deck, while most of the cases you don't even want to put on grave or bottom the card, and each time you don't do that you effectively never did any form of card advantage in the first place. Scry or Surveil is MUCH less valuable than "draw half card"....most of the times is just "you can look at top of your deck" and do literally nothing else.
It's good enough that pros use tap lands of all things to get a surveil in here and there. Tap lands man! lol! Sounds pretty advantageous to me if it's worth it even with that tradeoff
There's a reason they keep printing wild guess variants and they're solid playables in limited. Being able to chuck lands you don't need has always been good.
As for this it's one mana more for a sinister starfish with 3 extra defense. I think it's still only fringe playable though. And ineligible for pauper, alas.
You are confusing card advantage with card filtering and even then it barely does that, since with a "draw then discard" effect, you always filter deep down the deck, while most of the cases you don't even want to put on grave or bottom the card, and each time you don't do that you effectively never did any form of card advantage in the first place. Scry or Surveil is MUCH less valuable than "draw half card"....most of the times is just "you can look at top of your deck" and do literally nothing else.
You are conflating card advantage with card draw only. Card advantage comes in many shapes and forms.
-Draw - The most obvious, increased volume of cards. More draw gives you more options.
-Discard - If you spend one card to take away two of your opponent's (Mind Rot), you have generated advantage.
-Impulse draw - Temporary, but it provides more options for a given turn and digs you deeper into your deck.
-Looting/Rummaging - While often net neutral in sheer volume, the advantage comes by filtering out cards you need less for cards you need more. Advantage through quality.
-Scry/Surveil - Much like Looting/Rummaging, this filters the cards that will end up in your hand, and if you use it right, it improves the quality of your actual draws.
-Removal - Board wipes generate advantage when they destroy only one of your creatures but many of your opponent's. Spot removal can also generate card advantage if it kills 2+ target creatures or a creature bearing auras.
-Recursion - Turns your graveyard into an extension of your hand, offering advantage of options.
So yes, Surveil is a form of card advantage, provided you actually use it to filter and not just peek. It becomes even better advantage in a recursion deck, but that is not required to generate advantage.
You are conflating card advantage with card draw only. Card advantage comes in many shapes and forms.
Sure, but at the end you must have more cards than your opponent or more cards than before. Thats why discard or mass removals are also a form of card advantage. If you end up with the same amount of cards you didnt make card advantage but card parity. If you end up using multiple resource to obtain less cards, its card disadvantage. Scry/Surveil is card parity at best but in no way is card advantage. You are NOT having more cards than before, by using the ability, even if its end up that you got better cards.
You are conflating card advantage with card draw only.
Respectfully, I think you're the one who has the term (in its widely understood definition) a little skewed.
Card advantage is something that gives you access to more cards than the opponent. That could be from card draw (Quick Study, Elvish Visionary), or it could be from one card trading for multiple cards (Mind Rot, Wrath of God, Annihilate). Or as you mention, removing something with an aura on it.
But it does not traditionally include card selection from scry/surveil or from rummaging/looting. You could argue in-graveyard abilities like flashback and disturb challenge this, since they essentially act like a card-in-hand while in the graveyard. But at least by the traditional definition, selection isn't card advantage even if they offer you a card-based advantage. Just ask Toofer:
That said, it's just a semantic difference. We all know surveil is good, and quite a bit better than scry because the graveyard is more accessible than the library.
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People generally look at each scry and surveil as about half a card draw, so if you activate this twice, it should give you card advantage by not drawing a dead card.
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You are confusing card advantage with card filtering and even then it barely does that, since with a "draw then discard" effect, you always filter deep down the deck, while most of the cases you don't even want to put on grave or bottom the card, and each time you don't do that you effectively never did any form of card advantage in the first place. Scry or Surveil is MUCH less valuable than "draw half card"....most of the times is just "you can look at top of your deck" and do literally nothing else.
I've heard "virtual card advantage" used for things that technically aren't, but feel like it.
As for this it's one mana more for a sinister starfish with 3 extra defense. I think it's still only fringe playable though. And ineligible for pauper, alas.
-Draw - The most obvious, increased volume of cards. More draw gives you more options.
-Discard - If you spend one card to take away two of your opponent's (Mind Rot), you have generated advantage.
-Impulse draw - Temporary, but it provides more options for a given turn and digs you deeper into your deck.
-Looting/Rummaging - While often net neutral in sheer volume, the advantage comes by filtering out cards you need less for cards you need more. Advantage through quality.
-Scry/Surveil - Much like Looting/Rummaging, this filters the cards that will end up in your hand, and if you use it right, it improves the quality of your actual draws.
-Removal - Board wipes generate advantage when they destroy only one of your creatures but many of your opponent's. Spot removal can also generate card advantage if it kills 2+ target creatures or a creature bearing auras.
-Recursion - Turns your graveyard into an extension of your hand, offering advantage of options.
So yes, Surveil is a form of card advantage, provided you actually use it to filter and not just peek. It becomes even better advantage in a recursion deck, but that is not required to generate advantage.
Agreed.
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Sure, but at the end you must have more cards than your opponent or more cards than before. Thats why discard or mass removals are also a form of card advantage. If you end up with the same amount of cards you didnt make card advantage but card parity. If you end up using multiple resource to obtain less cards, its card disadvantage. Scry/Surveil is card parity at best but in no way is card advantage. You are NOT having more cards than before, by using the ability, even if its end up that you got better cards.
Respectfully, I think you're the one who has the term (in its widely understood definition) a little skewed.
Card advantage is something that gives you access to more cards than the opponent. That could be from card draw (Quick Study, Elvish Visionary), or it could be from one card trading for multiple cards (Mind Rot, Wrath of God, Annihilate). Or as you mention, removing something with an aura on it.
But it does not traditionally include card selection from scry/surveil or from rummaging/looting. You could argue in-graveyard abilities like flashback and disturb challenge this, since they essentially act like a card-in-hand while in the graveyard. But at least by the traditional definition, selection isn't card advantage even if they offer you a card-based advantage. Just ask Toofer:
That said, it's just a semantic difference. We all know surveil is good, and quite a bit better than scry because the graveyard is more accessible than the library.
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