What if they do both, as they seem to be for several characters?
I'm not having a problem to both have Nazguls in Wraith and Specter versions. But it's kinda worrying that MaRo listed Wraith but not Specter in his teaser of creature types. Hope to be wrong and not be a bad signal.
five different card types get the legendary supertype
So, we have 9 traditional card types: Land, Creature, Artifact, Enchantment, Planeswalker, Instant, Sorceries, Tribal and Battles.
We know that WotC said that no planeswalkers will be on the set, so we remove this.
It's also extremely unlikely we got more legendary sorceries or instant, they were received very poorly from the players and plays bad gameplay wise.
tribal is even much more unlikely than that.
That leave us with creature, land, artifact, enchantment and battle. Now while there's no surprise and we're actually 100% sure to have legendaries to the first 4 card types, this could be the first time we see a Legendary Battle. That sound fitting extremely well for LoTR setting, even the typeline itself sounds right and it's very probably the battle of the "Return of the King" part of the book.
Mark Rosewater has indicated this is very unlikely:
Hi Mark, A week ago or so you said that we shouldn't expect to see any new Battle cards in the immediate future of upcoming sets as you are being conservative with Battles and slow rolling them out. Was that comment specific to premier sets or in general should we also not expect to see any new Battles in immediate upcoming supplemental sets as well?
Two facts you need to know:
1) I said we wanted to see how Battles were received by the public before putting them in other sets.
2) We work two years ahead.
So we are very likely getting a new legendary instant or sorcery. I think that makes sense given legendary instants and sorceries were unpopular but they could still be brought back as a one-of, especially given the rules now define legendary instants and sorceries that way and the flavour and flashiness of doing a legendary instant or sorcery is going to be tempting to want to do more.
During the early 00s, there were six card types in conventional Magic: land, creature, instant, sorcery, artifact, and enchantment. With planeswalkers absent from LTR, battles still waiting to see how they do in MOM, and tribal retired, should we assume the six early-00s card types are the only card types in LTR?
We didn’t make a new one if that’s what you’re asking. No planeswalkers, no battles.
Ok, this confirms it now for sure, there will be a legendary instant or sorcery.
If Nazguls aren't called anywhere by Tolkien works "wraiths" I don't see where's the problem to do them as Specters.
Does the name Ringwraiths ring a bell? ;P
Ok that's fair. But now search on scryfall or gatherer any random Wraith and any random Specter and tell what visually is closer to them
Tricky question here, it's Dread Rider, which is a spirit!
The original Bog Wraith art is also quite close, but lacks an ominous steed.
Generally, the better way to distinguish the various black apparitions is mechanical. Shades have a pump ability, specters fly and can make you discard cards when they deal combat damage, wraiths have swampwalk and everything else is a spirit.
If they are going to depict the Nazguls during the battle of Gondor, they should be Specters since they were literally riding flying creatures in that moment. Discarding or messing with people hands seems also fitting flavorfully with them.
I think in that case, they might be exactly where the Specter/Wraith line is for Wizards, and we just get creatures with both types. Question is if it says Wraith Specter or Specter Wraith.
Not to muddle the wraith argument too much but aren’t the specters the riders and the beast combined in the same way an archon is the rider and the beast? I think it’d make more sense for the wraith argument since the Ringwraiths are cognitively separate from their foul beasts.
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They will be wraiths since that was they are called in the source material and thats what Wizards will go by even if it doesn't fit their version of wraiths. We saw similar things happening with demons and devils with DnD,in magic demons are the corruptors and will make deals with mortals for power, while devil are chaotic and cause destruction and mayhem, where as in DnD its reversed with devils being lawful evil deal makers and demons being chaotic evil and just causing mayhem. Even if the devils in Dnd are akin to demons in magic, they ended up with the devil type since thats what the source material called them.
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During the early 00s, there were six card types in conventional Magic: land, creature, instant, sorcery, artifact, and enchantment. With planeswalkers absent from LTR, battles still waiting to see how they do in MOM, and tribal retired, should we assume the six early-00s card types are the only card types in LTR?
We didn’t make a new one if that’s what you’re asking. No planeswalkers, no battles.
Ok, this confirms it now for sure, there will be a legendary instant or sorcery.
Maro has always been tricky with his his answers. He says
1) no planeswalkers
2) no battles)
3) no new types
he very specifically does not rule out Tribal, and I think he has said it's not impossible to see it in a Horizons set in particular, and this goes right into Modern. he has talked a few times about the difficulty of legendary instants and sorceries. I could see a legendary Tribal card. something tied to ents or such.
I'm not saying it's super likely, just that it's no less likely than the other two, and his wording seems to be very careful
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During the early 00s, there were six card types in conventional Magic: land, creature, instant, sorcery, artifact, and enchantment. With planeswalkers absent from LTR, battles still waiting to see how they do in MOM, and tribal retired, should we assume the six early-00s card types are the only card types in LTR?
We didn’t make a new one if that’s what you’re asking. No planeswalkers, no battles.
Ok, this confirms it now for sure, there will be a legendary instant or sorcery.
Maro has always been tricky with his his answers. He says
1) no planeswalkers
2) no battles)
3) no new types
he very specifically does not rule out Tribal, and I think he has said it's not impossible to see it in a Horizons set in particular, and this goes right into Modern. he has talked a few times about the difficulty of legendary instants and sorceries. I could see a legendary Tribal card. something tied to ents or such.
I'm not saying it's super likely, just that it's no less likely than the other two, and his wording seems to be very careful
Since the teasers say "a lot of one-of “creature type matters” cards", I would infer there will be several of them.
Galadrial seems to be elf tribal, Sauron may be orcs, Eowyn may be humans, etc....
Goblin ringleader or other cycles wouldn't be unusual either, neither would a Kindred Summons spell for specific creature types.
pucatrade
big receipts
alpha mox emerald
beta time walk
4 goyfs received
3 liliana of the veil
4 karn liberated
3 force of will
4 grove of the burnwillows
snapcaster mage
3 horizon canopy
2 full art damnation
During the early 00s, there were six card types in conventional Magic: land, creature, instant, sorcery, artifact, and enchantment. With planeswalkers absent from LTR, battles still waiting to see how they do in MOM, and tribal retired, should we assume the six early-00s card types are the only card types in LTR?
We didn’t make a new one if that’s what you’re asking. No planeswalkers, no battles.
Ok, this confirms it now for sure, there will be a legendary instant or sorcery.
Maro has always been tricky with his his answers. He says
1) no planeswalkers
2) no battles)
3) no new types
he very specifically does not rule out Tribal, and I think he has said it's not impossible to see it in a Horizons set in particular, and this goes right into Modern. he has talked a few times about the difficulty of legendary instants and sorceries. I could see a legendary Tribal card. something tied to ents or such.
I'm not saying it's super likely, just that it's no less likely than the other two, and his wording seems to be very careful
Since the teasers say "a lot of one-of “creature type matters” cards", I would infer there will be several of them.
Galadrial seems to be elf tribal, Sauron may be orcs, Eowyn may be humans, etc....
Goblin ringleader or other cycles wouldn't be unusual either, neither would a Kindred Summons spell for specific creature types.
would tribal count as a mechanic?
if it does I suppose it could be a culprit to the other mechanic that he fought for the tooth and nail to bring back since it first premiered
During the early 00s, there were six card types in conventional Magic: land, creature, instant, sorcery, artifact, and enchantment. With planeswalkers absent from LTR, battles still waiting to see how they do in MOM, and tribal retired, should we assume the six early-00s card types are the only card types in LTR?
We didn’t make a new one if that’s what you’re asking. No planeswalkers, no battles.
Ok, this confirms it now for sure, there will be a legendary instant or sorcery.
Maro has always been tricky with his his answers. He says
1) no planeswalkers
2) no battles)
3) no new types
he very specifically does not rule out Tribal, and I think he has said it's not impossible to see it in a Horizons set in particular, and this goes right into Modern. he has talked a few times about the difficulty of legendary instants and sorceries. I could see a legendary Tribal card. something tied to ents or such.
I'm not saying it's super likely, just that it's no less likely than the other two, and his wording seems to be very careful
OK, I still think the last 2 are instant and sorcery rather than enchantment and tribal, but I was thinking about whether there's a noncreature legendary permanent that has a strong enough association with a creature type to make them consider making it tribal and... Grond does kinda want to be a wolf.
During the early 00s, there were six card types in conventional Magic: land, creature, instant, sorcery, artifact, and enchantment. With planeswalkers absent from LTR, battles still waiting to see how they do in MOM, and tribal retired, should we assume the six early-00s card types are the only card types in LTR?
We didn’t make a new one if that’s what you’re asking. No planeswalkers, no battles.
Ok, this confirms it now for sure, there will be a legendary instant or sorcery.
Maro has always been tricky with his his answers. He says
1) no planeswalkers
2) no battles)
3) no new types
he very specifically does not rule out Tribal, and I think he has said it's not impossible to see it in a Horizons set in particular, and this goes right into Modern. he has talked a few times about the difficulty of legendary instants and sorceries. I could see a legendary Tribal card. something tied to ents or such.
I'm not saying it's super likely, just that it's no less likely than the other two, and his wording seems to be very careful
Since the teasers say "a lot of one-of “creature type matters” cards", I would infer there will be several of them.
Galadrial seems to be elf tribal, Sauron may be orcs, Eowyn may be humans, etc....
Goblin ringleader or other cycles wouldn't be unusual either, neither would a Kindred Summons spell for specific creature types.
would tribal count as a mechanic?
if it does I suppose it could be a culprit to the other mechanic that he fought for the tooth and nail to bring back since it first premiered
pucatrade
big receipts
alpha mox emerald
beta time walk
4 goyfs received
3 liliana of the veil
4 karn liberated
3 force of will
4 grove of the burnwillows
snapcaster mage
3 horizon canopy
2 full art damnation
Ok, this confirms it now for sure, there will be a legendary instant or sorcery.
Maro has always been tricky with his his answers. He says
1) no planeswalkers
2) no battles)
3) no new types
he very specifically does not rule out Tribal, and I think he has said it's not impossible to see it in a Horizons set in particular, and this goes right into Modern. he has talked a few times about the difficulty of legendary instants and sorceries. I could see a legendary Tribal card. something tied to ents or such.
I'm not saying it's super likely, just that it's no less likely than the other two, and his wording seems to be very careful
Since the teasers say "a lot of one-of “creature type matters” cards", I would infer there will be several of them.
Galadrial seems to be elf tribal, Sauron may be orcs, Eowyn may be humans, etc....
Goblin ringleader or other cycles wouldn't be unusual either, neither would a Kindred Summons spell for specific creature types.
would tribal count as a mechanic?
if it does I suppose it could be a culprit to the other mechanic that he fought for the tooth and nail to bring back since it first premiered
I don't think we will necessarily get any goblin reprints. Goblin is mostly used in the Hobbit novel and was mostly used when the Hobbit wasn't connected to the rest of the legendarium and I think most other uses of the term goblin is meant to talk about a smaller bread of Orc IIRC so my point is that if there are goblins it should probably be goblin orc.
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Embrace the dark you call a home,
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A legacy of lies,
A familiar disguise
Sing with me a song of conquest and fate
The black pillar cracks beneath its weight
Night breaks through the day, hard as a stone
Lost in thoughts all alone
The difference betweem Specter and Wraith is like the difference between Knight and Soldier -- Specters are mounted.
Wraith isn't even worth to be a creature type. There's exactly six wraiths of 25.000+ cards in all 30 years of Magic History. https://scryfall.com/search?as=grid&order=name&q=type:wraith (game:paper)
If your distinction is true they all can be errated as Spirits as well.
I really hope the "Wraith Noble" aren't really the Nazguls (which are mounted) or that would be infuriating.
that’s because in lord of the rings there’s the Ringwraiths aka nazgûls
During the early 00s, there were six card types in conventional Magic: land, creature, instant, sorcery, artifact, and enchantment. With planeswalkers absent from LTR, battles still waiting to see how they do in MOM, and tribal retired, should we assume the six early-00s card types are the only card types in LTR?
We didn’t make a new one if that’s what you’re asking. No planeswalkers, no battles.
Ok, this confirms it now for sure, there will be a legendary instant or sorcery.
Maro has always been tricky with his his answers. He says
1) no planeswalkers
2) no battles)
3) no new types
he very specifically does not rule out Tribal, and I think he has said it's not impossible to see it in a Horizons set in particular, and this goes right into Modern. he has talked a few times about the difficulty of legendary instants and sorceries. I could see a legendary Tribal card. something tied to ents or such.
I'm not saying it's super likely, just that it's no less likely than the other two, and his wording seems to be very careful
Seems pretty unlikely to me. Tribal is a cardtype but it only goes alongside other cardtypes, and with 'five different cardtypes' feels more like we should expect legendaries that aren't just multitype- like if the only legendary artifacts and enchantments were also creatures that would be weird. Plus, tribal seems more unlikely to show up than legendary spells. The whole problem with tribal WotC has said is that it's weird if it only shows up a little bit whereas legendary instants and sorceries could easily show up as a couple odd cards in a set. And how heavy will the tribal support be here, even outside of the tribal type?
I doubt it.
During the early 00s, there were six card types in conventional Magic: land, creature, instant, sorcery, artifact, and enchantment. With planeswalkers absent from LTR, battles still waiting to see how they do in MOM, and tribal retired, should we assume the six early-00s card types are the only card types in LTR?
We didn’t make a new one if that’s what you’re asking. No planeswalkers, no battles.
Ok, this confirms it now for sure, there will be a legendary instant or sorcery.
Maro has always been tricky with his his answers. He says
1) no planeswalkers
2) no battles)
3) no new types
he very specifically does not rule out Tribal, and I think he has said it's not impossible to see it in a Horizons set in particular, and this goes right into Modern. he has talked a few times about the difficulty of legendary instants and sorceries. I could see a legendary Tribal card. something tied to ents or such.
I'm not saying it's super likely, just that it's no less likely than the other two, and his wording seems to be very careful
Seems pretty unlikely to me. Tribal is a cardtype but it only goes alongside other cardtypes, and with 'five different cardtypes' feels more like we should expect legendaries that aren't just multitype- like if the only legendary artifacts and enchantments were also creatures that would be weird. Plus, tribal seems more unlikely to show up than legendary spells. The whole problem with tribal WotC has said is that it's weird if it only shows up a little bit whereas legendary instants and sorceries could easily show up as a couple odd cards in a set. And how heavy will the tribal support be here, even outside of the tribal type?
I doubt it.
It's entirely possible that it's instants/sorceries, that phrasing just makes it feel like a trick, the person asking him was wrong, tribal was used on one card in MH2, it's not retired in the same way banding is. I feel like they didn't like how legendary sorceries played in the past. My biggest thing is just how well each one fits. if I'm a designer and you tell me I'm allowed to use tribal in this set, I can come up with 20 cards very easily, all super thematic to Tolkien's creations. If you tell me I have to have one legendary instant or sorcery and make it flavorfully worth making legendary, i struggle. the breaking of the bridge in Moria? breaking Saruman's staff? that's a big thing about those books, there's a very limited number of times where overt magic like what this game shows as instants or sorceries pops up, most of the 'magic' was much more subtle than that.
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It's entirely possible that it's instants/sorceries, that phrasing just makes it feel like a trick, the person asking him was wrong, tribal was used on one card in MH2, it's not retired in the same way banding is. I feel like they didn't like how legendary sorceries played in the past. My biggest thing is just how well each one fits. if I'm a designer and you tell me I'm allowed to use tribal in this set, I can come up with 20 cards very easily, all super thematic to Tolkien's creations. If you tell me I have to have one legendary instant or sorcery and make it flavorfully worth making legendary, i struggle. the breaking of the bridge in Moria? breaking Saruman's staff? that's a big thing about those books, there's a very limited number of times where overt magic like what this game shows as instants or sorceries pops up, most of the 'magic' was much more subtle than that.
But you got it backwards. Nobody was tasked with making a tribal type card or a legendary instant/sorcery. They just made the set and found one of them useful. In a set with many legendary cards, but creature type mattering on multiple occasions just as "one of", I suspect the set is better suited to support the legendary instant/sorcery cards.
And maybe it's just a single occurrence like "Forging the One Ring" - a spell that makes creatively sense as legendary since it not only depicts a singular big story event, but also something done by a single "legendary creature": Sauron. Though I could see any number of storyline events getting such a treatment if they are to singular and not part of a multi-step narrative that would go on a Saga.
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Planar Chaos was not a mistake neither was it random. You might want to look at it again.
[thread=239793][Game] Level Up - Creature[/thread]
I second what SecretInfiltrator said, same kind of thing I was thinking. We know there will be a bit of a legendary theme and it would be easy to include a legendary spell for a bit of extra flair. Tribal just seems much more of an uncertain commitment for me to believe that we are going to see it just because it could be one of the cardtypes to get a legendary. It all seems like a stretch just to justify why it might be the fifth cardtype.
why did they do ink-trender (RGWU) again? make 4-color legends of the other 4-color combinations
Hmm, yeah, I expected a continuation of what seemed to be a slowly emerging 4 color legendary cycle. Maybe they're trying to correct for Omnath's power level? Or not counting UB?
I'm not having a problem to both have Nazguls in Wraith and Specter versions. But it's kinda worrying that MaRo listed Wraith but not Specter in his teaser of creature types. Hope to be wrong and not be a bad signal.
Mark Rosewater has indicated this is very unlikely:
So we are very likely getting a new legendary instant or sorcery. I think that makes sense given legendary instants and sorceries were unpopular but they could still be brought back as a one-of, especially given the rules now define legendary instants and sorceries that way and the flavour and flashiness of doing a legendary instant or sorcery is going to be tempting to want to do more.
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I think this is amass, but with non-zombies
Wraith Noble has to be the undead king, no?
Remember, though, the big spider that bit Tolkien had nothing whatsoever to do with him creating Shelob.
Also, I am really liking the look of those Sauron and Galadriel commanders. Playing to type very well, I think.
Kill them all
Ok, this confirms it now for sure, there will be a legendary instant or sorcery.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
My guess would be Spirit Noble is the king of the dead and Wraith Noble is the Witch King
Gaze upon an empty, white throne
A legacy of lies,
A familiar disguise
Sing with me a song of conquest and fate
The black pillar cracks beneath its weight
Night breaks through the day, hard as a stone
Lost in thoughts all alone
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Maro has always been tricky with his his answers. He says
1) no planeswalkers
2) no battles)
3) no new types
he very specifically does not rule out Tribal, and I think he has said it's not impossible to see it in a Horizons set in particular, and this goes right into Modern. he has talked a few times about the difficulty of legendary instants and sorceries. I could see a legendary Tribal card. something tied to ents or such.
I'm not saying it's super likely, just that it's no less likely than the other two, and his wording seems to be very careful
Since the teasers say "a lot of one-of “creature type matters” cards", I would infer there will be several of them.
Galadrial seems to be elf tribal, Sauron may be orcs, Eowyn may be humans, etc....
Goblin ringleader or other cycles wouldn't be unusual either, neither would a Kindred Summons spell for specific creature types.
pucatrade
big receipts
alpha mox emerald
beta time walk
4 goyfs received
3 liliana of the veil
4 karn liberated
3 force of will
4 grove of the burnwillows
snapcaster mage
3 horizon canopy
2 full art damnation
would tribal count as a mechanic?
if it does I suppose it could be a culprit to the other mechanic that he fought for the tooth and nail to bring back since it first premiered
OK, I still think the last 2 are instant and sorcery rather than enchantment and tribal, but I was thinking about whether there's a noncreature legendary permanent that has a strong enough association with a creature type to make them consider making it tribal and... Grond does kinda want to be a wolf.
Probably not but the envoys goblin ringleader or flamestick courier mechanic could be possible.
pucatrade
big receipts
alpha mox emerald
beta time walk
4 goyfs received
3 liliana of the veil
4 karn liberated
3 force of will
4 grove of the burnwillows
snapcaster mage
3 horizon canopy
2 full art damnation
I don't think we will necessarily get any goblin reprints. Goblin is mostly used in the Hobbit novel and was mostly used when the Hobbit wasn't connected to the rest of the legendarium and I think most other uses of the term goblin is meant to talk about a smaller bread of Orc IIRC so my point is that if there are goblins it should probably be goblin orc.
Gaze upon an empty, white throne
A legacy of lies,
A familiar disguise
Sing with me a song of conquest and fate
The black pillar cracks beneath its weight
Night breaks through the day, hard as a stone
Lost in thoughts all alone
that’s because in lord of the rings there’s the Ringwraiths aka nazgûls
Seems pretty unlikely to me. Tribal is a cardtype but it only goes alongside other cardtypes, and with 'five different cardtypes' feels more like we should expect legendaries that aren't just multitype- like if the only legendary artifacts and enchantments were also creatures that would be weird. Plus, tribal seems more unlikely to show up than legendary spells. The whole problem with tribal WotC has said is that it's weird if it only shows up a little bit whereas legendary instants and sorceries could easily show up as a couple odd cards in a set. And how heavy will the tribal support be here, even outside of the tribal type?
I doubt it.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
It's entirely possible that it's instants/sorceries, that phrasing just makes it feel like a trick, the person asking him was wrong, tribal was used on one card in MH2, it's not retired in the same way banding is. I feel like they didn't like how legendary sorceries played in the past. My biggest thing is just how well each one fits. if I'm a designer and you tell me I'm allowed to use tribal in this set, I can come up with 20 cards very easily, all super thematic to Tolkien's creations. If you tell me I have to have one legendary instant or sorcery and make it flavorfully worth making legendary, i struggle. the breaking of the bridge in Moria? breaking Saruman's staff? that's a big thing about those books, there's a very limited number of times where overt magic like what this game shows as instants or sorceries pops up, most of the 'magic' was much more subtle than that.
But you got it backwards. Nobody was tasked with making a tribal type card or a legendary instant/sorcery. They just made the set and found one of them useful. In a set with many legendary cards, but creature type mattering on multiple occasions just as "one of", I suspect the set is better suited to support the legendary instant/sorcery cards.
And maybe it's just a single occurrence like "Forging the One Ring" - a spell that makes creatively sense as legendary since it not only depicts a singular big story event, but also something done by a single "legendary creature": Sauron. Though I could see any number of storyline events getting such a treatment if they are to singular and not part of a multi-step narrative that would go on a Saga.
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
Factions: Sleeping
Remnants: Valheim
Legendary Journey: Heroes & Planeswalkers
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Legends: The Elder Dragons
Read up on Red Flags & NWO
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
why did they do ink-trender (RGWU) again? make 4-color legends of the other 4-color combinations
Oh some what mistake on WOTC part because they forgot something maro put this teaser
so this Aragorn likely counters matter 4-color legend and potentially a kathril, aspect Warper alternate of losing B for adding UR (ability counters)
Hmm, yeah, I expected a continuation of what seemed to be a slowly emerging 4 color legendary cycle. Maybe they're trying to correct for Omnath's power level? Or not counting UB?
I feel like that's still entirely possible, or did Maro specify only one?