MTG Salvation

Quote from lookingupanddown »

Because they don't control it, and Commander inherently does not need the LGS. The format began as friends getting together somewhere else to avoid the usual Magic player grind. If anything, between that and online selling/trading over the pandemic, Commander doesn't inherently need the LGS to work. Hell, sometimes Commander gets worse at an LGS.

Why do you feel Commander gets worse at the LGS?
Sure, there are spectators hovering over, and occasionally you have a loud and obnoxious opponent who thinks their deck is the best, doesn't understand how certain cards work, or makes excuses whenever they lose, but isn't meeting new people and playing against a more diverse field of opponents (however obtuse) part of the fun? If you're always playing in someone's living room with the same few friends and decks, there's a confirmation bias element, and it's difficult to accurately gauge the strength of the decks as there are many commanders, synergies, and combos you're never competing against within that closed metagame.


As for the Standard extension, I'm a glass half-full kinda guy, so I see this as a good thing, if only circumstantially, because very few of us got to enjoy those sets which were going to rotate out upon their initial release due to the pandemic, which stifled live play and made many of us apprehensive to go back right away even once restrictions were lifted. Admittedly though, I've always been more of a Limited and Commander player. Not only does this change let people enjoy those cards from Innistrad, Kamigawa, and New Capenna for longer to make up for that time/opportunity loss, more sets in Standard will allow more deck archetypes to be viable, if not competitive, which keeps the secondary market stronger, or at least healthier and more balanced. There will be a greater pool of synergies and combos to choose from, counterbalanced by more efficient removal cards to keep threats in check, and everyone will have a more reliable and consistent mana base simply by virtue of there being more rare lands in the format at a time, which will lead to us seeing more 3+ color decks than previously. Essentially, the whole format is powered up, while offering greater diversity and unpredictability regarding what decks you may go up against. Regardless, I'll be testing out my brews for this new Standard on Arena before sleeving anything up physically to bring to the LGS, which I think will be the case for most players as the next sets rotate in.

Quote from buffntuff »

I think it's great to have a local gaming store and etc but this is a capitalist country and if you can't run a business profitably then you should not be in business. LGS's need to offer a value proposition to its customers, the customers don't need to be guilted into virtue signaling their money to a business. Wizards of the coast shouldn't be guilted into virtue signal supporting game stores. That's woke antifa thinking. Profits don't care about your feelings.

Customers don't NEED to be put in a position where they feel guilty into virtue signaling their money to a company like Wizards of the Coast / Hasbro. I get that. But going to a different Paper Trading Card Game / Collectible Card Game like Flesh and Blood or Sorcery where their Intellectual Properties (IPs) are just as incredibly weak as Magic: The Gathering isn't really going to hold up long term when it ONLY caters to the older aging demographic of disenfranchised Magic: The Gathering players and collectors who were originally cultured into the game 10, 20, to 30 years ago as opposed to younger generations of players having no real interest in it to due severe lack of cross promotion, advertising, and marketing on the companies' end and to some extent LGS owners and employees. They'd much rather invest in a new card game based on a more popular Intellectual Property (IP).

It also doesn't help when a lot of these Local Game Stores (LGSs) like mine in particular prioritize Magic, Yu-Gi-Oh!, and Pokémon TCG more as opposed to these other competing Paper Trading Card Games / Collectible Card Games. Sadly most of the responsibility is left to the playgroups trying to help grow their respective Paper Trading Card Game / Collectible Card Game at their locals rather than Local Game Stores (LGSs) themselves. They can put in just as much effort as these playgroups by actually implementing Organized Play, Tournament Organizers, and Judge Programs as well as getting sealed product and card singles in for these particular Paper Trading Card Games / Collectible Card Games. Unfortunately Local Game Stores (LGSs) don't want to do that because they just want to push whatever they feel is the most comfortable for them as opposed to what their community wants.

I think commander can absolutely get worse at a game store, at least in my experience. It all comes down to the people you're playing with.

Quote from Simto »

I think commander can absolutely get worse at a game store, at least in my experience. It all comes down to the people you're playing with.

Guess that would explain why Wizards of the Coast / Hasbro and the EDH Rules Committee are so deeply afraid of cEDH especially in terms of design philosophy as well. After the mistake that was Opposition Agent, Hullbreacher, and Jeweled Lotus in Commander Legends Wizards of the Coast / Hasbro were like, "Never again! But we'll reprint Jeweled Lotus one last time in Commander Masters..."

Quote from Mystic_X »

As for the Standard extension, I'm a glass half-full kinda guy, so I see this as a good thing, if only circumstantially, because very few of us got to enjoy those sets which were going to rotate out upon their initial release due to the pandemic, which stifled live play and made many of us apprehensive to go back right away even once restrictions were lifted. Admittedly though, I've always been more of a Limited and Commander player. Not only does this change let people enjoy those cards from Innistrad, Kamigawa, and New Capenna for longer to make up for that time/opportunity loss, more sets in Standard will allow more deck archetypes to be viable, if not competitive, which keeps the secondary market stronger, or at least healthier and more balanced. There will be a greater pool of synergies and combos to choose from, counterbalanced by more efficient removal cards to keep threats in check, and everyone will have a more reliable and consistent mana base simply by virtue of there being more rare lands in the format at a time, which will lead to us seeing more 3+ color decks than previously. Essentially, the whole format is powered up, while offering greater diversity and unpredictability regarding what decks you may go up against. Regardless, I'll be testing out my brews for this new Standard on Arena before sleeving anything up physically to bring to the LGS, which I think will be the case for most players as the next sets rotate in.

Yeah, I don't think there's anything inherently bad about the change.

We probably won't see a big spike in 3 color, though. Current standard is already at a point where 3 color decks are picking and choosing the dual lands they play and standard has more 3 color decks than pioneer.

I imagine the first couple years might bring a little wonkiness, and probably a few bans as things enter standard together that weren't supposed to, but once it's being designed for, I don't see why this wouldn't be a healthy format operating at a similar power level entry point to current standard with another year to play with cards in Standard. Power level will be a little higher, but not so high as to scare off a new player and it sounds like part of the plan is to seed more decks in sets, so that thing you think of when you open a pack and see some cool cards on a theme will work more often.

If the meta feels stale after Wilds of Eldraine releases, banning Fable of the Mirror-Breaker, Bloodtithe Harvester and Thalia, Guardian of Thraben will completely change the meta without a full rotation.

Why has this thread devolved into talking about Commander?

Back to Standard please. (Yes I know there is little interest in it on this site as it may as well be renamed mtgcommandernation.)

Hey WotC how about banning Fable of the Mirror Breaker now? So we don't have to suffer through it for a whole more year.

What If the best way to save Paper Standard in Magic is through individual card rotation instead of set rotation like in Yu-Gi-Oh!'s Advanced Format? As far as I recall Wizards of the Coast / Hasbro have already been experimenting with this idea online If my knowledge serves me correctly. That way there's less feel bads whenever sets get rotated out as the only individual cards getting rotated out are problematic cards where as they can also rotate in specific cards that are no longer a problem within said metagame. Perhaps there won't be as much power creep by rotating out and rotating in individual cards within the metagame as opposed to rotating out entire sets that causes players to lose more money than the card singles they've purchased. It might not be a one-size fits all solution but it's a start. I know Yu-Gi-Oh! gets a bad rep from the Magic community but I honestly think that Konami has really been stepping up their game since 2011 where Yu-Gi-Oh! was at a real low point with Cardfight!! Vanguard and Kaijudo exploding onto the scene as an end result. Kaijudo got scrapped because Wizards of the Coast / Hasbro's budget wasn't big enough to support it and Magic where as Cardfight!! Vanguard died because Bushiroad is too big of a company to even care.

Yu-Gi-Oh! now has their own online client with Master Duel that's very similar to Arena for Magic yet they don't know how to capitalize on it in a way that helps get more new players at Local Game Stores (LGSs) which you would think Konami would've done a much better job on since they're better at cross promotion, marketing, and advertising than Wizards of the Coast / Hasbro given that they're relying on other Intellectual Properties (IPs) to help prop up Magic through Universes Beyond because of how weak Magic is in terms of it's own story and lore. I was a former Yu-Gi-Oh! player at one point before I got into Magic 21 years ago and despite how more complex Yu-Gi-Oh! has gotten I do feel as though Konami has been making better business decisions than Wizards of the Coast / Hasbro, heck they didn't even charge an absurd fee for their 25th Anniversary Product compared to Magic 30 which is saying A LOT. I wish I could say the same for Pokémon TCG which is currently going through it's own struggles at this point. Their rules and protocol have gotten far too strict because of the pandemic and they only seem to be making things worse instead of better.

Quote from motleyslayer »

I feel this chnge makes people feel better about investing in standard staples that don't see play anywhere else, as they can play them longer. I'm interested to see if they'll be more aggressive with banning problematic cards.

I was having a conversation with friends a few months ago how I wish they'd have a rotating format that didn't rotate as fast as standard but I guess changing standard could be fun too

You'd think they'd be just as aggressive with banning problematic cards in Modern with how expensive the format is where mana bases cost a fortune as opposed to Pioneer where Fetches are banned.

Quote from Card Slinger J »

You'd think they'd be just as aggressive with banning problematic cards in Modern with how expensive the format is where mana bases cost a fortune as opposed to Pioneer where Fetches are banned.

Enemy fetchlands are surprisingly at relatively affordable levels for the first time in a long time, ranging from $15-20 compared to the $30-80 they used to run. Allied fetchlands are still are in the $25-40 range but they're one Masters set away from dropping as well.

https://mtgrocks.com/mtg-fetch-land-drops-below-10-for-the-first-time-ever/

Truefully commander masters could be the set that reprints the ally fetchlanda

Quote from lookingupanddown »

Quote from Card Slinger J »

What If the best way to save Paper Standard in Magic is through individual card rotation instead of set rotation like in Yu-Gi-Oh!'s Advanced Format? As far as I recall Wizards of the Coast / Hasbro have already been experimenting with this idea online If my knowledge serves me correctly. That way there's less feel bads whenever sets get rotated out as the only individual cards getting rotated out are problematic cards where as they can also rotate in specific cards that are no longer a problem within said metagame. Perhaps there won't be as much power creep by rotating out and rotating in individual cards within the metagame as opposed to rotating out entire sets that causes players to lose more money than the card singles they've purchased. It might not be a one-size fits all solution but it's a start. I know Yu-Gi-Oh! gets a bad rep from the Magic community but I honestly think that Konami has really been stepping up their game since 2011 where Yu-Gi-Oh! was at a real low point with Cardfight!! Vanguard and Kaijudo exploding onto the scene as an end result. Kaijudo got scrapped because Wizards of the Coast / Hasbro's budget wasn't big enough to support it and Magic where as Cardfight!! Vanguard died because Bushiroad is too big of a company to even care.

Yu-Gi-Oh! now has their own online client with Master Duel that's very similar to Arena for Magic yet they don't know how to capitalize on it in a way that helps get more new players at Local Game Stores (LGSs) which you would think Konami would've done a much better job on since they're better at cross promotion, marketing, and advertising than Wizards of the Coast / Hasbro given that they're relying on other Intellectual Properties (IPs) to help prop up Magic through Universes Beyond because of how weak Magic is in terms of it's own story and lore. I was a former Yu-Gi-Oh! player at one point before I got into Magic 21 years ago and despite how more complex Yu-Gi-Oh! has gotten I do feel as though Konami has been making better business decisions than Wizards of the Coast / Hasbro, heck they didn't even charge an absurd fee for their 25th Anniversary Product compared to Magic 30 which is saying A LOT. I wish I could say the same for Pokémon TCG which is currently going through it's own struggles at this point. Their rules and protocol have gotten far too strict because of the pandemic and they only seem to be making things worse instead of better.

Konami's business method with Yugioh is still offsetting later prints of chase cards with new, more powercreeped chase cards. Konami does not care about non-archetype-based flavor or card balance as much as they care about the manga and anime the game is feeding into. It's why Master Duel is approaching its first tier zero deck a year and a half after release with Tearlaments. Overall, not something worth emulating outside of maybe the card market.

Maybe instead of emulating Yu-Gi-Oh! to make Standard work in Magic again they could emulate how Standard works in the Pokémon TCG where they remove four or more sets directly following the World Championships taking place. In other words it seems as though Pokémon TCG's Standard rotation is much stricter than in Magic where you now only have three years before a set rotates. That could explain why people seem to collect Pokémon TCG cards rather than actually play the game In-Person at their Local Game Store (LGS). THAT and their COVID-19 Protocols even at this current stage of the pandemic seem to be actively turning more people away from playing the game In-Person at LGSs. Pokémon TCG is mostly targeted to young kids and teenagers even though young adults in the Masters division still make up the vast majority of players.

With Magic, Wizards of the Coast / Hasbro feels there's no need to implement these types of protocols for their Paper Standard format since young adults are their target audience even though everyone's already jumped ship to Arena and Commander. It also doesn't help that entry fees for competitive events have gone up dramatically for the Pokémon TCG where Paper Standard in Magic is still $5 per entry at locals unless you're playing Arena at home. Wizards of the Coast / Hasbro seems hellbent (no pun intended) on trying to outsource In-Person Events for Paper Magic from Local Game Stores (LGSs) directly toward Conventions with much bigger floor space and overhead because they don't want to piss off D&D groups taking up one floor at an LGS while another playgroup wants to use up another floor just to play their said card game with the last floor being reserved JUST to host a kid's birthday party.

Quote from Card Slinger J »

Quote from motleyslayer »

I feel this chnge makes people feel better about investing in standard staples that don't see play anywhere else, as they can play them longer. I'm interested to see if they'll be more aggressive with banning problematic cards.

I was having a conversation with friends a few months ago how I wish they'd have a rotating format that didn't rotate as fast as standard but I guess changing standard could be fun too

You'd think they'd be just as aggressive with banning problematic cards in Modern with how expensive the format is where mana bases cost a fortune as opposed to Pioneer where Fetches are banned.

They don't care about modern

I'd be surprised if Fable of the Mirror-Breaker survives past September. The real question for me is which black cards join it in banland. There's calls for banning Cut Down, Invoke Despair and Sheoldred, the Apocalypse. At least one of those has to go. There are also speculations of one of the major players in the monowhite decks getting a ban, but I'm not too worried about them.

Yep Sheoldred needs to go as well. I would also suggest Wandering Emperor from the white decks although I utterly hate Brutal Cathar as well. Midrange and Control are out of control in Standard right now. Bans are needed SOON.

That reminds me. Can Wizards of the Coast / Hasbro legally keep problematic cards unbanned in Standard for a long period of time solely for the sake of making monetary profits through sealed product because in case you didn't know these problematic cards can indeed carry entire sets with them by making up at least one or two thirds of the Expected Value (EV) of the set. This could all be avoided If Wizards of the Coast / Hasbro actually took the time to playtest the cards before release leading to less emergency bans and less players having to pay more money to rebuild new Paper Standard decks from scratch since they can't find functional replacements for cards getting emergency banned that they've already spent too much money on. Unfortunately Wizards of the Coast / Hasbro's ENTIRE workforce has already been cut by 15% so good luck on finding playtesters who aren't bound by Paper Magic's strict release schedule for new products.

I'm guessing nobody remembers how unfun Teferi, Time Raveler was to play against back when he was Standard legal. A card that was LITERALLY designed by Mark Rosewater himself to prevent ANY form of player interaction and he actually thought that it was a fun idea when everyone else was against it. Remember how everyone got so annoyed by Oko, Thief of Crowns and Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath in Paper Standard and Wizards of the Coast / Hasbro chose not to ban them immediately so that they could secure the EV on those Throne of Eldraine and Theros Beyond Death boxes? Same thing with Sheoldred, the Apocalypse in Paper Standard to prop up the price on Dominaria United boxes where they can now put most of the Expected Value (EV) directly into Commander Pre-Cons because THAT'S what sells right now. The Ikoria Commander Pre-Cons are a good example of this where they can artificially inflate the price and choose to reprint later.

Quote from Simto »

They don't care about modern

That's because Wizards of the Coast / Hasbro won't allow us to have a non-rotating format anymore outside of Commander. They just won't. Standard sets have to have cards like Oko, Thief of Crowns or Omnath, Locus of Creation where they HAVE to break another format. That's why any set that goes into Modern has to have cards at the same power level as Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer that would bust it in Modern and become MUST HAVE'S. The formats that were made specifically to escape set rotations like Commander, Wizards of the Coast / Hasbro is forcing set rotations into almost ALL of them. They are forcing obsolescence on you. Wizards of the Coast / Hasbro is arrogant enough to think that they can control every format that everybody plays and force you to keep buying their products. It's insane.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Card restrictions would be a good choice for some cards over outright bans as well. They have the means to enforce this but they never do. Shows they literally don't do anything until there is a big enough outcry from the community to ban something. Certain cards hit a set threshold percentage of play in tournaments and it should trigger a restriction or ban, really that simple.

I see Reckoner Bankbuster at 61% of decks played on Goldfish right now. A perfect card for a restriction. Its boring seeing this card over and over every game. Its the new Looter Scooter of a few years ago.

I'm not so sure about banning Sheoldred, there's plenty of answers against her, basically any non-damage based removal and even Red can answer her using Rebel Salvo, she is however, extremely unfun to play against so the game may be better off without her.Cut Down is just a very good removal spell comparable to Fatal Push, which didn't break the format back then. Invoke Despair on the other hand is a bigger problem, the only way to prevent that card from wrecking you is play either Blue or White and pray you have a counterspell or a Surge of Salvation in hand. Reckoner Bankbuster is ubiquitous but it's mercifully slow at least, and it's worth mentioning that non-Rakdos decks may not even play it

Sheoldred is another card that could be put on restriction to one copy. Not strong enough for an outright ban, but "unfun" or OP enough in many decks to be restricted to one copy.

The only formats that actually do receive restrictions over bans are Legacy and Vintage which are out of most players' price range yet for some reason they don't feel the need to enforce this for other formats with the exception of Commander since it's Singleton in which can only be answered with bans.

Yes and it shows their utter indecisiveness and indifference to actually nuturing Standard, Pioneer and Modern by not doing so.

Makes little difference anyway, they have stupidly announced they are only going to have a "yearly" ban right after rotation. (Rotation in itself is its own ban you dunderheads at WotC) Then 3 weeks after a set releases they will have a potential ban from that set.

Oh yeah that will solve it. They are clueless, absolutely clueless.

Quote from Card Slinger J »

The only formats that actually do receive restrictions over bans are Legacy and Vintage which are out of most players' price range yet for some reason they don't feel the need to enforce this for other formats with the exception of Commander since it's Singleton in which can only be answered with bans.

Since when Legacy restrict cards over bans? Vintage is literally the only format that does that.

Quote from Evil Never Dies »

Quote from Card Slinger J »

The only formats that actually do receive restrictions over bans are Legacy and Vintage which are out of most players' price range yet for some reason they don't feel the need to enforce this for other formats with the exception of Commander since it's Singleton in which can only be answered with bans.

Since when Legacy restrict cards over bans? Vintage is literally the only format that does that.

Yeah I forgot.

So looks like a ban coming on the 29th.

At the absolute BARE MINIMUM these 3 should go... (Many more are needed)

Bankbuster
Fable
Invoke Despair

That is the bare minimum. So without any restrictions these others would be healthy to the format to be cut (Would love to see these restricted and not banned but WotC is too dumb to do the right thing)

Sheoldred
Wandering Emperor
Brutal Cathar
Leyline Binding
Atraxa
Graveyard Trespasser
Wedding Announcement

The problem here seems to be that WoTC has too many formats to support. Back in the "old days", when Standard was THE entry point to MTG, you had Standard (Type 2), Vintage (Type 1), and Extended (Type 1.X). Type 1.5 (Legacy) wasn't really a thing up until the last 16-19 years give or take. That was it. So sets were then catered to the Standard dynamic more than it is now with, what, Modern, EDH, Explorer, Pioneer, Pauper, limited...that's a lot of formats to create content for.

So unless you want an even bigger deluge of specialty products, standard isn't going to be getting the attention it deserves so long as other money-earning formats exist.