Lord of the woke rings I guess. Wizards hasn't learned that woke is a failing market strategy. Just look at recent Disney failures.
Disney's live action movies or even MCU's decline has nothing to do with woke and more to do with Disney forgetting they actually have to put in some effort when making movies and the MCU following a formula far too much. There's no woke here, and even that vernacular is stupid at best. Honestly, when looking at the card I hand waved it away due to it being underpowered rather than anything more than one iota about a change in skin color. It doesn't matter.
As someone that only likes LotR, and not a super fan, I don't see the reason why Aragorn has to be changed, but honestly I really couldn't care past a bit of curiosity as to the reason for it. I'm not going to buy anything from this, which is a shame as I'll miss the dice from the bundles, as I don't like UB, and a character's skin color changing matters so very little that even my own curiosity is barely a blip on the radar.
I think Aragorn and Arwen is probably a human elf noble. Also, while it would be in character for Gollum to refer to your opponent as "it" I suspect that would be avoided.
I think Aragorn and Arwen is probably a human elf noble. Also, while it would be in character for Gollum to refer to your opponent as "it" I suspect that would be avoided.
I was going to ask about that. I wonder why it's High Elf instead of Elf, definitely feels like it should be Human Elf Noble. Is High Elf that much a distinction on LotR that it has to be on the card? I just thought all the LotR elves were just.....elves.
I think Aragorn and Arwen is probably a human elf noble. Also, while it would be in character for Gollum to refer to your opponent as "it" I suspect that would be avoided.
I was going to ask about that. I wonder why it's High Elf instead of Elf, definitely feels like it should be Human Elf Noble. Is High Elf that much a distinction on LotR that it has to be on the card? I just thought all the LotR elves were just.....elves.
More like "high elf" doesn't make much sense here, unless they're going for more strictly D&D-like creature typing.
First off, I don't recall "high elves" being used as a descriptor in LotR; and if it was used, it'd probably be referring to the Vanyar, who were also called Light-elves or 'the Fair.' Galadriel is the most well known of them. But Arwen is descended from the Noldor, who tend to be more humble after having produced Elven history's greatest embarrassment (Fëanor).
Maybe they're going to start calling the Noldor high-elves now? I dunno.
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I think Aragorn and Arwen is probably a human elf noble. Also, while it would be in character for Gollum to refer to your opponent as "it" I suspect that would be avoided.
I was going to ask about that. I wonder why it's High Elf instead of Elf, definitely feels like it should be Human Elf Noble. Is High Elf that much a distinction on LotR that it has to be on the card? I just thought all the LotR elves were just.....elves.
Tolkien's elves can be sorted into two groups - Calaquendi and Moriquendi, Light (or High) Elves and Dark Elves. The division is not based on moral stances or some kind of elemental affiliation but rather experience. The Calaquendi were the elves who heeded the summons of the Valar to the Undying Lands and saw the light of the two trees Telperion and Laurelin, while the Moriquendi remained in Middle Earth.
Do actual people actually care that they made Aragorn black? Because I feel like it's just the internet thinking it's supposed to care about that. They could make the entire cast black, and it wouldn't contradict the lore one bit. All it contradicts is head-canon and movie-parallel.
But the complaint that the card is boring is legitimate. And Frodo's "the ring tempts you" annoys me greatly. WRITE THE DAMN RULES ON THE CARD!! I don't touch initiative, monarch, dungeon, or day/night, and I won't touch this either.
Do actual people actually care that they made Aragorn black?
Apparently. Which I think is pretty stupid.
Yes, it's a deliberate departure from the book, wherein he's described as pale, but a) That's just called artistic license; b) It still looks better than the Bakshi movie*; and c) It's really not that big a deal. I'm far more concerned with whether the card is good. Which it does seem to be!
Besides, they could have made much, much dumber creative decisions - like inventing characters whole-cloth to fill out the legend count for the set, or similar. (Looking at you, Peter Jackson.)
*=I do still love the Bakshi movie. It was rare he took a project that seriously. The visuals just don't hold up very well with time.
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Do actual people actually care that they made Aragorn black?
Yes, some people who care both for Magic the Gathering (THE Trading Card Game par excellence) and Lord of the Rings (one of the last, if not the last true and exemplar modern product of a particularly European -specifically Germanic and Norse- sensibility and heritage), care that their favorite game represents their most beloved cultural product well.
When it comes to Tolkien, I think people should realize that a big section of the fans don't just see his works as "generic fantasy world". They see a manifestation of a culture they identify with. Just like the Japanese would see Ruruoni Kenshin or other Samurai/Yokai/etc stories. Everyone is entitled to feel pride for their culture. Does that mean that nobody else can enjoy Samurai anime or LOTR? Of course not, but that doesn't mean people are obligated to take well the inclusion of external ethnicities (for commercial reasons, at that) in your traditional/mythological/historical setting. Case in point: Dragon Ball Evolution. Heck, even Rings of Power to an extent.
I think I've learned to treat Magic cards like baseball cards: keep 'em in a binder in numerical order, don't play with 'em, try to finish the set and just keep my head down.
The problem I have with WoTC doing what they did with Aragorn for "reasons" is that it sets up a situation where if anyone disagrees with it on either the lore holding true to Tolkien or even just the stupidity of it, they will be called names that have nothing to do with their opinion. The only thing that comes of it is controversy and a desire to divide people.
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But the complaint that the card is boring is legitimate. And Frodo's "the ring tempts you" annoys me greatly. WRITE THE DAMN RULES ON THE CARD!! I don't touch initiative, monarch, dungeon, or day/night, and I won't touch this either.
I think it’s most likely going to be something closer to poisons relationship with corrupted. Effects are going to tempt you with the ring which will be tracked like poison counters without actually dying to it and you’ll have effects based off how much the ring has tempted you like how corrupted cares about how many poison counters. That’s at least my theory. I don’t think it’ll work like monarch initiative or dungeons.
My gripe is more with that they’re using halflings instead of hobbits lol I know even in lotr they used them interchangeably but I think halflings are more a dnd thing. I guess if you want to make a halfling tribal deck you have more options lol.
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Embrace the dark you call a home,
Gaze upon an empty, white throne
A legacy of lies,
A familiar disguise
Sing with me a song of conquest and fate
The black pillar cracks beneath its weight
Night breaks through the day, hard as a stone
Lost in thoughts all alone
I for one find that Aragon is the only character of the 4 on these three cards that doesn't just strike me as off. Gollum just doesn't illicit the image I had of him when I read the books. When I saw the movie (after reading the book), that gollum meshed with my vision and became my new mental picture - this looks - concentration camp old lady to me - so much so it causes a physical discomfort - a well drawn card, but unsettling. I almost feel this looks more zombie than corrupted hobbit.
Arwen is a bigger miss to me - the face is just off to me - she doesn't have elven features to me - hard lines where they should be soft and soft where they should be strong. Arwen gives me the vibe of a 40 year old human actress that had plastic surgery. Still attractive but something is off with her and doesn't mesh with any elf depicted in MTG or LoTR and definitely not the ageless beauty that most of us associate with Tolkien elves.
Finally, Frodo - he is making an up yours motion and they just removed the middle finger. Tell me I'm not wrong. You're welcome.
Here before people get mad because Aragorn is black.
Considering we've known for over 6 months, your "here before" comment seems like needless race-baiting.
As for the leaks, these cards in no way increase or decrease my apathy toward this set. I love Lord of the Rings. I love Magic: The Gathering. I don't feel the overwhelming desire to mash them together, and I haven't been fond of Universes Beyond. If there are cards that mechanically work in my decks, I'll run them, but I certainly don't plan to buy any cards just because WOTC paid a license to print some other IP I enjoy. I wish WOTC would gain some confidence in their own brand and quit diluting it.
Do actual people actually care that they made Aragorn black?
Yes, some people who care both for Magic the Gathering (THE Trading Card Game par excellence) and Lord of the Rings (one of the last, if not the last true and exemplar modern product of a particularly European -specifically Germanic and Norse- sensibility and heritage), care that their favorite game represents their most beloved cultural product well.
When it comes to Tolkien, I think people should realize that a big section of the fans don't just see his works as "generic fantasy world". They see a manifestation of a culture they identify with. Just like the Japanese would see Ruruoni Kenshin or other Samurai/Yokai/etc stories. Everyone is entitled to feel pride for their culture. Does that mean that nobody else can enjoy Samurai anime or LOTR? Of course not, but that doesn't mean people are obligated to take well the inclusion of external ethnicities (for commercial reasons, at that) in your traditional/mythological/historical setting. Case in point: Dragon Ball Evolution. Heck, even Rings of Power to an extent.
Alright, putting aside the reasons for why WotC did this, this whole 'LotR is basically a manifestation of the culture of a certain ethnicity and how they see the world, and therefore external ethnicities should have no place in it' is... Let's just say, a very special kind of interpretation in and of itself. I love LotR, and yeah, Tolkien imagined it to be along the lines of Beowulf, a form of ancient myth for the British people, which he thought they were lacking. Notice that it was specifically british people. Nothing about skin tone or something, though Tolkien obviously couldn't escape the Zeitgeist of his time entirely (his description of Orcs as looking like 'the least lovely looking mongole types' in one of his letters and the fact that ALL people of color appearing in LotR are on the side of evil are good indicators of that). So what exactly is the ethnicity you mean whose 'cultural manifestation' LotR supposedly is, and what exactly does skin color change about the story? We can discuss all day long what Tolkien believed, but my point is that unless you follow his myth-making almost religiously (in which case yes, as a british person you could maybe become upset about this, since the 3rd age Numenorans can be interpreted as expies of you, just like the Hobbits are), this change means nothing. This is not a historic story, this is not changing historic people's ethnicities. There is no cultural baggage that would influence LotR if there were black Numenorans (or elves or whatever) into another direction, unless you believe some weird stereotypes. So... Is the change necessary? Not really. Is it a disgrace to LotR? No. It is pretty much a stylistic choice.
Oh and most legends and myths of cultures across the world are surprisingly diverse, the Japanese for example have stories of Yasuke, the first foreign, black Samurai (16th century). So no, that's not as monolithic as you think it is either. I understand and actually might agree that it is a corporate driven decision by WotC, but this kind of discussion always veers into the strangest directions.
Switching back to the cards, Aragorn and Arwen are interesting in GW, and Gollum's flavor is on point in my opinion.
My gripe is more with that they’re using halflings instead of hobbits lol I know even in lotr they used them interchangeably but I think halflings are mor a dnd thing. I guess if you want to make a halfling tribal deck you have more options lol.[/quote] i further gripe they arent kithkin, but i want kithkin and halflings to be the same tribe
Let's keep discussions about the cards, set, etc. and keep it civil. No more conspiracy theories or any other nonsense. Art is interesting strictly because it's a look into someone else's interpretation. If you like it, great; if not that's okay, too, but say so and let it go.
Do actual people actually care that they made Aragorn black? Because I feel like it's just the internet thinking it's supposed to care about that. They could make the entire cast black, and it wouldn't contradict the lore one bit. All it contradicts is head-canon and movie-parallel.
But the complaint that the card is boring is legitimate. And Frodo's "the ring tempts you" annoys me greatly. WRITE THE DAMN RULES ON THE CARD!! I don't touch initiative, monarch, dungeon, or day/night, and I won't touch this either.
It would be nice if WOTC printed an extra card with these new mechanics on them. They include promotional cards for arena, so they could just as easily have the new rules like "the ring tempts you".
I wouldn't be surprised if they made some of the fellowship with partner for other members of the fellowship.
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The only trouble is is that lore wise kithkin are very different from halflings and hobbits. On Lorwyn they’re bonded psychically to one another. There may be a chance for some kithkin in March of the machine as artwork shows the phyrexians battling lorwyn elves maybe down the road we’ll have a commander or lord that cares about both and you can play halflings and kithkin together.
My gripe is more with that they’re using halflings instead of hobbits lol I know even in lotr they used them interchangeably but I think halflings are mor a dnd thing. I guess if you want to make a halfling tribal deck you have more options lol.
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Embrace the dark you call a home,
Gaze upon an empty, white throne
A legacy of lies,
A familiar disguise
Sing with me a song of conquest and fate
The black pillar cracks beneath its weight
Night breaks through the day, hard as a stone
Lost in thoughts all alone
Do actual people actually care that they made Aragorn black?
Yes, some people who care both for Magic the Gathering (THE Trading Card Game par excellence) and Lord of the Rings (one of the last, if not the last true and exemplar modern product of a particularly European -specifically Germanic and Norse- sensibility and heritage), care that their favorite game represents their most beloved cultural product well.
When it comes to Tolkien, I think people should realize that a big section of the fans don't just see his works as "generic fantasy world". They see a manifestation of a culture they identify with. Just like the Japanese would see Ruruoni Kenshin or other Samurai/Yokai/etc stories. Everyone is entitled to feel pride for their culture. Does that mean that nobody else can enjoy Samurai anime or LOTR? Of course not, but that doesn't mean people are obligated to take well the inclusion of external ethnicities (for commercial reasons, at that) in your traditional/mythological/historical setting. Case in point: Dragon Ball Evolution. Heck, even Rings of Power to an extent.
100% agree with all of this. Plus there is inherent double standard. Imagine the outrage if they made a savannah/African style plane and then had a tribe of white skinned red haired people? This wokeness for no reason but wokeness needs to stop. And no this has nothing to do with artistic license.
100% agree with all of this. Plus there is inherent double standard. Imagine the outrage if they made a savannah/African style plane and then had a tribe of white skinned red haired people? This wokeness for no reason but wokeness needs to stop. And no this has nothing to do with artistic license.
There was an African block. One of the nations of Jamuraa is light skinned. I do not recall anyone whining like this about it.
People did, however, whine about such topics as: dark-skinned knights on Eldraine, the mere idea of non-white people on Kaldheim, dark-skinned people on Innistrad (in midnight Hunt, even though they were depicted in the original too). I feel like there's some kind of pattern to the whining, if only I could put my finger on it...
The way people is cheated by corporations amuse me. Do you really believe Aragorn's being black is because WoTC is fair, anti-racist and kind? yeah sure.
Aragorn is black because it will sell cards. That's the wwhole point.
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Disney's live action movies or even MCU's decline has nothing to do with woke and more to do with Disney forgetting they actually have to put in some effort when making movies and the MCU following a formula far too much. There's no woke here, and even that vernacular is stupid at best. Honestly, when looking at the card I hand waved it away due to it being underpowered rather than anything more than one iota about a change in skin color. It doesn't matter.
As someone that only likes LotR, and not a super fan, I don't see the reason why Aragorn has to be changed, but honestly I really couldn't care past a bit of curiosity as to the reason for it. I'm not going to buy anything from this, which is a shame as I'll miss the dice from the bundles, as I don't like UB, and a character's skin color changing matters so very little that even my own curiosity is barely a blip on the radar.
I was going to ask about that. I wonder why it's High Elf instead of Elf, definitely feels like it should be Human Elf Noble. Is High Elf that much a distinction on LotR that it has to be on the card? I just thought all the LotR elves were just.....elves.
More like "high elf" doesn't make much sense here, unless they're going for more strictly D&D-like creature typing.
First off, I don't recall "high elves" being used as a descriptor in LotR; and if it was used, it'd probably be referring to the Vanyar, who were also called Light-elves or 'the Fair.' Galadriel is the most well known of them. But Arwen is descended from the Noldor, who tend to be more humble after having produced Elven history's greatest embarrassment (Fëanor).
Maybe they're going to start calling the Noldor high-elves now? I dunno.
Tolkien's elves can be sorted into two groups - Calaquendi and Moriquendi, Light (or High) Elves and Dark Elves. The division is not based on moral stances or some kind of elemental affiliation but rather experience. The Calaquendi were the elves who heeded the summons of the Valar to the Undying Lands and saw the light of the two trees Telperion and Laurelin, while the Moriquendi remained in Middle Earth.
But the complaint that the card is boring is legitimate. And Frodo's "the ring tempts you" annoys me greatly. WRITE THE DAMN RULES ON THE CARD!! I don't touch initiative, monarch, dungeon, or day/night, and I won't touch this either.
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Apparently. Which I think is pretty stupid.
Yes, it's a deliberate departure from the book, wherein he's described as pale, but a) That's just called artistic license; b) It still looks better than the Bakshi movie*; and c) It's really not that big a deal. I'm far more concerned with whether the card is good. Which it does seem to be!
Besides, they could have made much, much dumber creative decisions - like inventing characters whole-cloth to fill out the legend count for the set, or similar. (Looking at you, Peter Jackson.)
*=I do still love the Bakshi movie. It was rare he took a project that seriously. The visuals just don't hold up very well with time.
Yes, some people who care both for Magic the Gathering (THE Trading Card Game par excellence) and Lord of the Rings (one of the last, if not the last true and exemplar modern product of a particularly European -specifically Germanic and Norse- sensibility and heritage), care that their favorite game represents their most beloved cultural product well.
When it comes to Tolkien, I think people should realize that a big section of the fans don't just see his works as "generic fantasy world". They see a manifestation of a culture they identify with. Just like the Japanese would see Ruruoni Kenshin or other Samurai/Yokai/etc stories. Everyone is entitled to feel pride for their culture. Does that mean that nobody else can enjoy Samurai anime or LOTR? Of course not, but that doesn't mean people are obligated to take well the inclusion of external ethnicities (for commercial reasons, at that) in your traditional/mythological/historical setting. Case in point: Dragon Ball Evolution. Heck, even Rings of Power to an extent.
Been on this forum for 10++ years
Playing since '94
I think it’s most likely going to be something closer to poisons relationship with corrupted. Effects are going to tempt you with the ring which will be tracked like poison counters without actually dying to it and you’ll have effects based off how much the ring has tempted you like how corrupted cares about how many poison counters. That’s at least my theory. I don’t think it’ll work like monarch initiative or dungeons.
My gripe is more with that they’re using halflings instead of hobbits lol I know even in lotr they used them interchangeably but I think halflings are more a dnd thing. I guess if you want to make a halfling tribal deck you have more options lol.
Gaze upon an empty, white throne
A legacy of lies,
A familiar disguise
Sing with me a song of conquest and fate
The black pillar cracks beneath its weight
Night breaks through the day, hard as a stone
Lost in thoughts all alone
Arwen is a bigger miss to me - the face is just off to me - she doesn't have elven features to me - hard lines where they should be soft and soft where they should be strong. Arwen gives me the vibe of a 40 year old human actress that had plastic surgery. Still attractive but something is off with her and doesn't mesh with any elf depicted in MTG or LoTR and definitely not the ageless beauty that most of us associate with Tolkien elves.
Finally, Frodo - he is making an up yours motion and they just removed the middle finger. Tell me I'm not wrong. You're welcome.
As for the leaks, these cards in no way increase or decrease my apathy toward this set. I love Lord of the Rings. I love Magic: The Gathering. I don't feel the overwhelming desire to mash them together, and I haven't been fond of Universes Beyond. If there are cards that mechanically work in my decks, I'll run them, but I certainly don't plan to buy any cards just because WOTC paid a license to print some other IP I enjoy. I wish WOTC would gain some confidence in their own brand and quit diluting it.
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Alright, putting aside the reasons for why WotC did this, this whole 'LotR is basically a manifestation of the culture of a certain ethnicity and how they see the world, and therefore external ethnicities should have no place in it' is... Let's just say, a very special kind of interpretation in and of itself. I love LotR, and yeah, Tolkien imagined it to be along the lines of Beowulf, a form of ancient myth for the British people, which he thought they were lacking. Notice that it was specifically british people. Nothing about skin tone or something, though Tolkien obviously couldn't escape the Zeitgeist of his time entirely (his description of Orcs as looking like 'the least lovely looking mongole types' in one of his letters and the fact that ALL people of color appearing in LotR are on the side of evil are good indicators of that). So what exactly is the ethnicity you mean whose 'cultural manifestation' LotR supposedly is, and what exactly does skin color change about the story? We can discuss all day long what Tolkien believed, but my point is that unless you follow his myth-making almost religiously (in which case yes, as a british person you could maybe become upset about this, since the 3rd age Numenorans can be interpreted as expies of you, just like the Hobbits are), this change means nothing. This is not a historic story, this is not changing historic people's ethnicities. There is no cultural baggage that would influence LotR if there were black Numenorans (or elves or whatever) into another direction, unless you believe some weird stereotypes. So... Is the change necessary? Not really. Is it a disgrace to LotR? No. It is pretty much a stylistic choice.
Oh and most legends and myths of cultures across the world are surprisingly diverse, the Japanese for example have stories of Yasuke, the first foreign, black Samurai (16th century). So no, that's not as monolithic as you think it is either. I understand and actually might agree that it is a corporate driven decision by WotC, but this kind of discussion always veers into the strangest directions.
Switching back to the cards, Aragorn and Arwen are interesting in GW, and Gollum's flavor is on point in my opinion.
My gripe is more with that they’re using halflings instead of hobbits lol I know even in lotr they used them interchangeably but I think halflings are mor a dnd thing. I guess if you want to make a halfling tribal deck you have more options lol.[/quote] i further gripe they arent kithkin, but i want kithkin and halflings to be the same tribe
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StaffIt would be nice if WOTC printed an extra card with these new mechanics on them. They include promotional cards for arena, so they could just as easily have the new rules like "the ring tempts you".
I wouldn't be surprised if they made some of the fellowship with partner for other members of the fellowship.
pucatrade
big receipts
alpha mox emerald
beta time walk
4 goyfs received
3 liliana of the veil
4 karn liberated
3 force of will
4 grove of the burnwillows
snapcaster mage
3 horizon canopy
2 full art damnation
Four words: Bands with other Halflings.
Gaze upon an empty, white throne
A legacy of lies,
A familiar disguise
Sing with me a song of conquest and fate
The black pillar cracks beneath its weight
Night breaks through the day, hard as a stone
Lost in thoughts all alone
100% agree with all of this. Plus there is inherent double standard. Imagine the outrage if they made a savannah/African style plane and then had a tribe of white skinned red haired people? This wokeness for no reason but wokeness needs to stop. And no this has nothing to do with artistic license.
There was an African block. One of the nations of Jamuraa is light skinned. I do not recall anyone whining like this about it.
People did, however, whine about such topics as: dark-skinned knights on Eldraine, the mere idea of non-white people on Kaldheim, dark-skinned people on Innistrad (in midnight Hunt, even though they were depicted in the original too). I feel like there's some kind of pattern to the whining, if only I could put my finger on it...
Aragorn is black because it will sell cards. That's the wwhole point.
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You lose the game.