Ya'll are massively overthinking this. WotC wants to compleat legends for the stakes/shock factor. But they also want to make said legends recognizable, especially since the set can't focus on a handful of legends but has to provide a bit of a panorama view, thus each legend will end up as close to their original appearance as possible.
Besides, WotC has been on the record of claiming that 'Retcons are good, actually'.
My two cents (keep the change). I do like this version of Heliod. My only gripe is that he's not Commander (AS a Commander) playable. This is hardly breaking new ground. This card is great for the 99, but I don't see him bringing a whole lot to the table that justifies creating a whole new deck. For those who are like me who are running 200+ commander decks, it really takes something unique to want to build around. For anyone who is still building decks with waaayyy less than I have (stating a number here is irrelevant), this could be a decent option for a blue/white enchantment deck. I would just suggest playing w/ a lot of cards w/ flash and to take advantage of the cost reduction and I'd play w/ a lot of group card draw to keep your opponent casting spells. Maybe then go group huggish/pillow fort.
Now I've got myself thinking... Maybe I'll toy around w/ an idea of pillow fort & flash. Hmmmm...
For anyone who is still building decks with waaayyy less than I have (stating a number here is irrelevant), this could be a decent option for a blue/white enchantment deck. I would just suggest playing w/ a lot of cards w/ flash and to take advantage of the cost reduction and I'd play w/ a lot of group card draw to keep your opponent casting spells. Maybe then go group huggish/pillow fort.
Why do you suggest playing with a lot of cards that have flash, when one of the abilities of the commander literally just gives all your spells flash anyway?
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Planar Chaos was not a mistake neither was it random. You might want to look at it again.
[thread=239793][Game] Level Up - Creature[/thread]
My gripe is that he has no form of indestructible, and is always a creature, breaking two traditions of Theros gods. I wish they had given him even a hard to attain conditional indestructible, like "as long as you control 10 or more enchantments."
My gripe is that he has no form of indestructible, and is always a creature, breaking two traditions of Theros gods. I wish they had given him even a hard to attain conditional indestructible, like "as long as you control 10 or more enchantments."
Or, if they make use of DFCs in the first place, why not have his front face be a plain enchantment and he only turns into an enchantment creature on his backface.*
Even flavourwise it would make sense because based on the story Heliod should start out still imprisoned in the underworld.
*They probably didn't do it for commander but honestly, just make a rule that any DFC with a legendary creature on one side is legal as a commander and you're done.
I think the spear is a new spear that looks like the old one, the followers assume he has it so he does.
Correct. The issue with this though, is why devotion didn't re-form Thassa's Bident, then? She's depicted on all statues and even her constellations as having a red coral Bident, so why is it an iron fishing spear? For consistency, it should work for both gods, not only Heliod. The only way I see them justifying it is the followers having seen Thassa's bident vanish, and know that Purphoros forged her a new spear. But again, Heliod's shattered in front of them as well, so why does his spear return and not hers?
Also, Heliod always being a creature and lacking indestructible is awkward, but he's not really intended to be a depiction of the Theros pantheon with this card, but represent the corruption of Phyrexia across Theros.
I just resent he cannot return gods to the hand. I'm still going to play his front face in Kestia. I can't stand Phyrexia's aesthetic or corruption, but there's no denying that the front-face Jason Engle constellation art of Heliod is gorgeous, and the effect is still useful for me in that Theros-themed deck.
I think the spear is a new spear that looks like the old one, the followers assume he has it so he does.
Wasn't the whole reason Heliod's spear broke in the first place that Elspeth went around telling people it was fake and the Shadowspear was the real one? Not out of the question that people could be convinced that it was replaced or something, but its presence wouldn't necessarily be the default assumption.
For anyone who is still building decks with waaayyy less than I have (stating a number here is irrelevant), this could be a decent option for a blue/white enchantment deck. I would just suggest playing w/ a lot of cards w/ flash and to take advantage of the cost reduction and I'd play w/ a lot of group card draw to keep your opponent casting spells. Maybe then go group huggish/pillow fort.
Why do you suggest playing with a lot of cards that have flash, when one of the abilities of the commander literally just gives all your spells flash anyway?
Because your Commander will not always be out on the field. If you are playing a deck heavy on the flash keyword, then there's a very good chance you are also playing other cards that combo and synergize w/ flash. Never ever, EVER, let your Commander me your linchpin. If it's taken out of the equation and you do not have an opportunity to play him, your deck, it's them(s), its synergies, its combos need to still be able to happen. If ONE brick is holding your wall up your wall and it's removed, the wall will come a tumbling down.
For anyone who is still building decks with waaayyy less than I have (stating a number here is irrelevant), this could be a decent option for a blue/white enchantment deck. I would just suggest playing w/ a lot of cards w/ flash and to take advantage of the cost reduction and I'd play w/ a lot of group card draw to keep your opponent casting spells. Maybe then go group huggish/pillow fort.
Why do you suggest playing with a lot of cards that have flash, when one of the abilities of the commander literally just gives all your spells flash anyway?
Because your Commander will not always be out on the field. If you are playing a deck heavy on the flash keyword, then there's a very good chance you are also playing other cards that combo and synergize w/ flash. Never ever, EVER, let your Commander me your linchpin. If it's taken out of the equation and you do not have an opportunity to play him, your deck, it's them(s), its synergies, its combos need to still be able to happen. If ONE brick is holding your wall up your wall and it's removed, the wall will come a tumbling down.
That's just Commander Deck Building 101.
The deck building guru, nay god, hath spoken. All hail their supreme wisdom. Nary a soul here be capable of building a deck without such divine insight to guide them. Praise be to thee, yay!
For anyone who is still building decks with waaayyy less than I have (stating a number here is irrelevant), this could be a decent option for a blue/white enchantment deck. I would just suggest playing w/ a lot of cards w/ flash and to take advantage of the cost reduction and I'd play w/ a lot of group card draw to keep your opponent casting spells. Maybe then go group huggish/pillow fort.
Why do you suggest playing with a lot of cards that have flash, when one of the abilities of the commander literally just gives all your spells flash anyway?
Because your Commander will not always be out on the field. If you are playing a deck heavy on the flash keyword, then there's a very good chance you are also playing other cards that combo and synergize w/ flash. Never ever, EVER, let your Commander me your linchpin. If it's taken out of the equation and you do not have an opportunity to play him, your deck, it's them(s), its synergies, its combos need to still be able to happen. If ONE brick is holding your wall up your wall and it's removed, the wall will come a tumbling down.
That's just Commander Deck Building 101.
The deck building guru, nay god, hath spoken. All hail their supreme wisdom. Nary a soul here be capable of building a deck without such divine insight to guide them. Praise be to thee, yay!
If ONE brick is holding your wall up your wall and it's removed, the wall will come a tumbling down.
Back in the Combo Winter, I once had an older player ask me, "Now what happens when I manage to hit you with a Lobotomy and get rid of it?"
The best decks* are the ones that can adapt to what happens during the course of a game; it's been true since the start, and it's gonna stay that way for a long time.
*=Besides the ones that are just Swamps and Relentless Rats.
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Cheeseburger, french fries, chocolate shake, somebody's mind I's about to take!
Back in the Combo Winter, I once had an older player ask me, "Now what happens when I manage to hit you with a Lobotomy and get rid of it?"
...and did you laugh in their face and kill them with a combination of Urza's Saga cards? Lobotomy didn't exactly hold the fort against combo or prevent like 10 cards from being banned over a 3 month period.
I think your point re: decks adapting and not being overly reliant on a single card (even if it's your commander) is still true, but "lobotomy vs. combo winter" is a wild counterexample.
Back in the Combo Winter, I once had an older player ask me, "Now what happens when I manage to hit you with a Lobotomy and get rid of it?"
...and did you laugh in their face and kill them with a combination of Urza's Saga cards? Lobotomy didn't exactly hold the fort against combo or prevent like 10 cards from being banned over a 3 month period.
I think your point re: decks adapting and not being overly reliant on a single card (even if it's your commander) is still true, but "lobotomy vs. combo winter" is a wild counterexample.
The standard environment at the time had nothing to do with it, really. I was just a 13-14yo kid playing a godawful janky deck at the LGS, and the older guy was someone nice enough to give me advice after sitting down and playing a couple games. I had pulled a BoP out of a pack and was talking about making a 5-color deck based around it, and I'd just played against (read: gotten utterly thrashed by) his U/B shadow deck. I suppose my mind goes straight to 'Combo Winter' because he was one of the guys I knew who ran a Tolarian Academy deck and my brain still connects the two.
Also, just remembered I was going to say earlier in the thread: yes, making Heliod a creature all the time and not giving him indestructible is completely breaking with the tradition for Theros gods. But the card is a Theros god who has been broken, in utter violation of tradition, so it rather makes sense from a flavor POV. (Besides which, I think the lack of indestructible is a trade for the ability to drop a Farewell, Vanquish the Horde, etc. in response to him being removed)
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Besides, WotC has been on the record of claiming that 'Retcons are good, actually'.
Now I've got myself thinking... Maybe I'll toy around w/ an idea of pillow fort & flash. Hmmmm...
Why do you suggest playing with a lot of cards that have flash, when one of the abilities of the commander literally just gives all your spells flash anyway?
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
Factions: Sleeping
Remnants: Valheim
Legendary Journey: Heroes & Planeswalkers
Saga: Shards of Rabiah
Legends: The Elder Dragons
Read up on Red Flags & NWO
Or, if they make use of DFCs in the first place, why not have his front face be a plain enchantment and he only turns into an enchantment creature on his backface.*
Even flavourwise it would make sense because based on the story Heliod should start out still imprisoned in the underworld.
*They probably didn't do it for commander but honestly, just make a rule that any DFC with a legendary creature on one side is legal as a commander and you're done.
Also, Heliod always being a creature and lacking indestructible is awkward, but he's not really intended to be a depiction of the Theros pantheon with this card, but represent the corruption of Phyrexia across Theros.
I just resent he cannot return gods to the hand. I'm still going to play his front face in Kestia. I can't stand Phyrexia's aesthetic or corruption, but there's no denying that the front-face Jason Engle constellation art of Heliod is gorgeous, and the effect is still useful for me in that Theros-themed deck.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
Wasn't the whole reason Heliod's spear broke in the first place that Elspeth went around telling people it was fake and the Shadowspear was the real one? Not out of the question that people could be convinced that it was replaced or something, but its presence wouldn't necessarily be the default assumption.
Because your Commander will not always be out on the field. If you are playing a deck heavy on the flash keyword, then there's a very good chance you are also playing other cards that combo and synergize w/ flash. Never ever, EVER, let your Commander me your linchpin. If it's taken out of the equation and you do not have an opportunity to play him, your deck, it's them(s), its synergies, its combos need to still be able to happen. If ONE brick is holding your wall up your wall and it's removed, the wall will come a tumbling down.
That's just Commander Deck Building 101.
The deck building guru, nay god, hath spoken. All hail their supreme wisdom. Nary a soul here be capable of building a deck without such divine insight to guide them. Praise be to thee, yay!
Thank you for the prestige.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQiUJlRa0N8
Back in the Combo Winter, I once had an older player ask me, "Now what happens when I manage to hit you with a Lobotomy and get rid of it?"
The best decks* are the ones that can adapt to what happens during the course of a game; it's been true since the start, and it's gonna stay that way for a long time.
*=Besides the ones that are just Swamps and Relentless Rats.
...and did you laugh in their face and kill them with a combination of Urza's Saga cards? Lobotomy didn't exactly hold the fort against combo or prevent like 10 cards from being banned over a 3 month period.
I think your point re: decks adapting and not being overly reliant on a single card (even if it's your commander) is still true, but "lobotomy vs. combo winter" is a wild counterexample.
The standard environment at the time had nothing to do with it, really. I was just a 13-14yo kid playing a godawful janky deck at the LGS, and the older guy was someone nice enough to give me advice after sitting down and playing a couple games. I had pulled a BoP out of a pack and was talking about making a 5-color deck based around it, and I'd just played against (read: gotten utterly thrashed by) his U/B shadow deck. I suppose my mind goes straight to 'Combo Winter' because he was one of the guys I knew who ran a Tolarian Academy deck and my brain still connects the two.
Also, just remembered I was going to say earlier in the thread: yes, making Heliod a creature all the time and not giving him indestructible is completely breaking with the tradition for Theros gods. But the card is a Theros god who has been broken, in utter violation of tradition, so it rather makes sense from a flavor POV. (Besides which, I think the lack of indestructible is a trade for the ability to drop a Farewell, Vanquish the Horde, etc. in response to him being removed)