Making this thread mostly to decompress the leaks thread, although that might not be necessary because most of the discussion is done by this point. Still, lots of new design space on Kaya here: hexproof, shared scry, that Clone but 1/1 flying Spirit, and a plus ability that feels like it belongs on a Sorin.
I can't help but feel her whole package is strong and neat, but then that 7 mana cost kinda kills it. Probably not be a problem for control decks. You establish control play this and ride the card advantage to the finish line.
I hope the alternate art version of here is not as ugly ... (just like the Kaldheim one was awful, but the full art was nice).
Effect is strong, especially with hexproof, the only way this really dies is due to combat damage (or very few mass removal that kills planeswalkers).
So if you can stabilize with blockers, not really much that will happen and you just bleed the opponent out.
7 mana is still an awful lot, so hard to justify this in any constructed format as the cost is absolutely not competitive with todays undercosted threats.
"and a plus ability that feels like it belongs on a Sorin."
- What? That identical ability appears literally on her first card ever printed. Even her Oath and the ultimate of Orzhov Usurper it's all about drain life. Sure, Sorin also gets drain life effects but never in the form of a pseudo-extort. This ability can't be more Kaya-ish as it gets.
While true, tbf almost everytime I play Kaya, Ghost Assassin in the card shop at least 1 person in the game says they've never heard of the card.
I like this card. I'm definitely going to try it as a one-off in my Orzhov control shell I'm currently playing in Standard. I appreciate the hexproof, and her protection ability lets you get any abilities the card had on a 1/1 flier.
Just out of curiosity, what would happen if Kaya used her -3 on something like Dress Down?
The players get in a big argument about what happens. I'd look at the official rulings on Humility (regarding it's interaction with Opalescence). Short answer: yes it loses its abilities, but no that doesn't make it gain them again.
Just out of curiosity, what would happen if Kaya used her -3 on something like Dress Down?
The players get in a big argument about what happens. I'd look at the official rulings on Humility (regarding it's interaction with Opalescence). Short answer: yes it loses its abilities, but no that doesn't make it gain them again.
Those examples are multiple permanents interacting with each other, though, using timestamp rules.
This would be a single "creature" on the battlefield with its own ability to shut off all creature abilities, not influenced by other permanents. Would that not change how the rules would approach it?
Just out of curiosity, what would happen if Kaya used her -3 on something like Dress Down?
The players get in a big argument about what happens. I'd look at the official rulings on Humility (regarding it's interaction with Opalescence). Short answer: yes it loses its abilities, but no that doesn't make it gain them again.
Those examples are multiple permanents interacting with each other, though, using timestamp rules.
This would be a single "creature" on the battlefield with its own ability to shut off all creature abilities, not influenced by other permanents. Would that not change how the rules would approach it?
The timestamp stuff is mostly to determine what their power/toughness is, which doesn't come into play here. The important part is that when it goes through and checks for creatures, finds creatures and removes their abilities, the game does not then go back, realize that ability is gone and stop them from being creatures, thereby giving the ability back. With Dress Down, the game goes through, removes the abilities because it's a creature, but doesn't then go check again to realize that because the creature has no abilities, they shouldn't have been removed.
Here's the Comprehensive Rules section that deals with dependency loops:
"613.8 b An effect dependent on one or more other effects waits to apply until just after all of those effects have been applied. If multiple dependent effects would apply simultaneously in this way, they’re applied in timestamp order relative to each other. If several dependent effects form a dependency loop, then this rule is ignored and the effects in the dependency loop are applied in timestamp order."
In this case, of course, it's not several effects, it's just the one effect dependent on itself, but the concept should still apply - because it would form a loop, instead it is just applied in the normal place it would be instead of waiting for itself to be applied before it can be applied and thereby breaking the game.
There is also a ruling on Dress Down itself addressing what happens if it gets animated, which is similar, but does not go into as much detail as the Humility/Opalescence rulings: "If an effect causes Dress Down to become a creature, it will lose its own abilities along with all other creatures. This includes the triggered ability that causes it to be sacrificed at the beginning of the end step."
-
View User Profile
-
View Posts
-
Send Message
Spoiler EditorMaking this thread mostly to decompress the leaks thread, although that might not be necessary because most of the discussion is done by this point. Still, lots of new design space on Kaya here: hexproof, shared scry, that Clone but 1/1 flying Spirit, and a plus ability that feels like it belongs on a Sorin.
Source: @wizards_magic (Twitter)
Effect is strong, especially with hexproof, the only way this really dies is due to combat damage (or very few mass removal that kills planeswalkers).
So if you can stabilize with blockers, not really much that will happen and you just bleed the opponent out.
7 mana is still an awful lot, so hard to justify this in any constructed format as the cost is absolutely not competitive with todays undercosted threats.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
-
View User Profile
-
View Posts
-
Send Message
StaffWhile true, tbf almost everytime I play Kaya, Ghost Assassin in the card shop at least 1 person in the game says they've never heard of the card.
I like this card. I'm definitely going to try it as a one-off in my Orzhov control shell I'm currently playing in Standard. I appreciate the hexproof, and her protection ability lets you get any abilities the card had on a 1/1 flier.
The players get in a big argument about what happens. I'd look at the official rulings on Humility (regarding it's interaction with Opalescence). Short answer: yes it loses its abilities, but no that doesn't make it gain them again.
Those examples are multiple permanents interacting with each other, though, using timestamp rules.
This would be a single "creature" on the battlefield with its own ability to shut off all creature abilities, not influenced by other permanents. Would that not change how the rules would approach it?
The timestamp stuff is mostly to determine what their power/toughness is, which doesn't come into play here. The important part is that when it goes through and checks for creatures, finds creatures and removes their abilities, the game does not then go back, realize that ability is gone and stop them from being creatures, thereby giving the ability back. With Dress Down, the game goes through, removes the abilities because it's a creature, but doesn't then go check again to realize that because the creature has no abilities, they shouldn't have been removed.
Here's the Comprehensive Rules section that deals with dependency loops:
"613.8 b An effect dependent on one or more other effects waits to apply until just after all of those effects have been applied. If multiple dependent effects would apply simultaneously in this way, they’re applied in timestamp order relative to each other. If several dependent effects form a dependency loop, then this rule is ignored and the effects in the dependency loop are applied in timestamp order."
In this case, of course, it's not several effects, it's just the one effect dependent on itself, but the concept should still apply - because it would form a loop, instead it is just applied in the normal place it would be instead of waiting for itself to be applied before it can be applied and thereby breaking the game.
There is also a ruling on Dress Down itself addressing what happens if it gets animated, which is similar, but does not go into as much detail as the Humility/Opalescence rulings: "If an effect causes Dress Down to become a creature, it will lose its own abilities along with all other creatures. This includes the triggered ability that causes it to be sacrificed at the beginning of the end step."
I mean, I believe that's one of the main reasons the cards costs seven whole mana. Not easy to get out.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice