Obviously, attention deficit and burnout sees this gets put on the table. It's not an impossible change but the primary thing to consider is:
The change is lossy and not as actioned packed.
You will lose flavor with a bland monotone term that creates a container for the aspect. The change will need to be as open-source and action packed as to retain the flare of fantasy surrounding the event.
Losing force majeure is always bad for the game. Losing dynamic of interaction is bad.
Most of the arguments I've seen against this all sound like what I've heard of the reactions to keywording haste (from that line of text players at the time called celerity).
We've seen a similar thing happen with "die" and "create" and those have worked out great imo and help the game be a bit less wordy. Maybe not keyword it "Arrive- ~effect~" but more like "when this creature arrives -effect-", "whenever a creature arrives ~effect~". Maybe to call back it to older magic can be "Summoned".
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“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
So… there are two main ways to do this:
1. Create a new keyword that means “when this card enters the battlefield”
2. Creating a new action word like mill, essentially replacing the words “enters the battlefield” with “arrives” everywhere in the game.
I personally support the second way. It saves space on cards without turning it into the most popular keyword in the game. It would also let us save space within other abilities as well (Landfall could read “whenever a land arrives under your control,” for example).
So… there are two main ways to do this:
1. Create a new keyword that means “when this card enters the battlefield”
2. Creating a new action word like mill, essentially replacing the words “enters the battlefield” with “arrives” everywhere in the game.
I personally support the second way. It saves space on cards without turning it into the most popular keyword in the game. It would also let us save space within other abilities as well (Landfall could read “whenever a land arrives under your control,” for example).
So… there are two main ways to do this:
1. Create a new keyword that means “when this card enters the battlefield”
2. Creating a new action word like mill, essentially replacing the words “enters the battlefield” with “arrives” everywhere in the game.
I personally support the second way. It saves space on cards without turning it into the most popular keyword in the game. It would also let us save space within other abilities as well (Landfall could read “whenever a land arrives under your control,” for example).
In this case all you'd need to do it axe the word "battlefield" from the trigger, because "enter" is used exclusively for, well, entering the battlefield. cards don't enter the exile or the graveyard. They get put there.
I'd use a single ability word, like "Initialize — Draw a card", "Initialize — You gain 4 life". I'm not sure if that would work with things that grant other permanents ETB abilities or care about them entering, though (things like Reckless Fireweaver).
So… there are two main ways to do this:
1. Create a new keyword that means “when this card enters the battlefield”
2. Creating a new action word like mill, essentially replacing the words “enters the battlefield” with “arrives” everywhere in the game.
I personally support the second way. It saves space on cards without turning it into the most popular keyword in the game. It would also let us save space within other abilities as well (Landfall could read “whenever a land arrives under your control,” for example).
Well said. One thing I want to add in favor of the second version: It is really easy to not to immediately pick up on it, but the wording actually suggested up there obfuscates the nature of the ability as triggered - no more "when", "whenever" or "at".
The one thing I don't understand is how we got to the point to use "arrive" or "Arrives" for it though. We already have a perfectly fine word: enter. It's not like we use it in any other context than "enter the battlefield". The most straightforward change is to just remove the two redundant words "the battlefield" and save space with almost the exact same wording - minimal change.
If you really need more text from ETB abilities specifically, how about stopping the use of cardnames and always use "this" in contexts where there is no ambiguity "When Acererak the Archlich enters the battlefield" becomes "When this enters" and you get to keep the signal word for triggered abilities: when.
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Planar Chaos was not a mistake neither was it random. You might want to look at it again.
[thread=239793][Game] Level Up - Creature[/thread]
Players will figure it out. They would figure out Arrive or whatever one word keyword is used anyway.
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
So… there are two main ways to do this:
1. Create a new keyword that means “when this card enters the battlefield”
2. Creating a new action word like mill, essentially replacing the words “enters the battlefield” with “arrives” everywhere in the game.
I personally support the second way. It saves space on cards without turning it into the most popular keyword in the game. It would also let us save space within other abilities as well (Landfall could read “whenever a land arrives under your control,” for example).
Agreed. I think second way is better as it still uses the “when” template for triggered abilities.
I don't like "Arrives - effect" It's inflexible (can't be used for other things entering, can't be used for things that enter "with" or "as" something) and lacks symmetry with "dies."
"Arrives," "enters" or another intuitive word is fine, but I do not want "ETB" or something else that doesn't directly evoke what's actually happening.
So… there are two main ways to do this:
1. Create a new keyword that means “when this card enters the battlefield”
2. Creating a new action word like mill, essentially replacing the words “enters the battlefield” with “arrives” everywhere in the game.
I personally support the second way. It saves space on cards without turning it into the most popular keyword in the game. It would also let us save space within other abilities as well (Landfall could read “whenever a land arrives under your control,” for example).
In this case all you'd need to do it axe the word "battlefield" from the trigger, because "enter" is used exclusively for, well, entering the battlefield. cards don't enter the exile or the graveyard. They get put there.
We've seen this wording supported with Sagas already without ill result. Enters is shorter than any proposed replacements, and would make older printings of cards easily translatable to wider audiences. It seems like the most elegant solution.
I've thought about this a lot in the past (I'm a technical writer), and I landed on:
When this arrives, ...
When this dies, ...
When this leaves, ...
It only requires knowing that arrives/leaves refers to the battlefield, while dies refers to graveyard, which I think is intuitive enough. It matches the grammatical usage of dies/leaves in effects like 'whenever a creature dies/arrives/leaves, etc', and it is a bit more action-y sounding than 'enters the battlefield'.
While 'dies' is very flavorful, 'perish' would work for non-creatures too.
It's a shame that summoned/buried can't be used, they are the best choices imho.
Summoned is a great term, but it's lossy compared to "enters the battlefield". The entire change there compared to "comes into play/leaves play" was that "enters the battlefield" is more dynamic and adds fantasy to the action. Same can be said for "dies".
The problem with Summon/Summoned is that this is the term they should have given to "create" because that term is very lossy, bland, and monotone.
As a replacement for "enters the battlefield", it's just not as dynamic as it wants to be. You'd be surprised at how much retention it gives to the game when you're forcing players through action-based terminology like this. It breeds mental interaction. The more lossy a term is, the less interaction it breeds, and the less 3 dimensional (and more 2 dimensional) the gaming experience becomes.
Personally, I think that this problem only exists truly for people who toil over the term hundreds of times in short periods of time (creators of cards).
To save oneself the discomfort of redundancy (burnout), it's easy to consider a cheap bailout for yourself; especially if you're unaware at just what dynamics are at hand here—or what the action-based event holds here.
See this is where core sets come in handy. They are excellent venues to (re)introduce (newer) players to these terms by having a plethora of reminder text so that it isn't needed in the more "expert" level sets. Shortening rules text is always a good goal to have to minimalize excessive wordiness (pre-5th edition), so long as it doesn't confuse the base more than it intended.
I still say appears is better. Enchantments don't casually arrive on the field. Unless they are sentient enchantments
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'buster
HR Analyst. Gamer. Activist | Fearless, and forthright | Aggro-control is a mindset. Elspeth and Jhoira rock my world.
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Obviously, attention deficit and burnout sees this gets put on the table. It's not an impossible change but the primary thing to consider is:
The change is lossy and not as actioned packed.
You will lose flavor with a bland monotone term that creates a container for the aspect. The change will need to be as open-source and action packed as to retain the flare of fantasy surrounding the event.
Losing force majeure is always bad for the game. Losing dynamic of interaction is bad.
Changing unblockable and indestructible are both great examples of this currently in motion.
Neither of them carry the same gravity that they used to have. The uniqueness and grandeur. The dynamic of existence and interaction.
Those both need a rollback and this may only be the same if the action word doesn't match every essential spec.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
1. Create a new keyword that means “when this card enters the battlefield”
2. Creating a new action word like mill, essentially replacing the words “enters the battlefield” with “arrives” everywhere in the game.
I personally support the second way. It saves space on cards without turning it into the most popular keyword in the game. It would also let us save space within other abilities as well (Landfall could read “whenever a land arrives under your control,” for example).
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
This makes perfect sense to me.
In this case all you'd need to do it axe the word "battlefield" from the trigger, because "enter" is used exclusively for, well, entering the battlefield. cards don't enter the exile or the graveyard. They get put there.
Well said. One thing I want to add in favor of the second version: It is really easy to not to immediately pick up on it, but the wording actually suggested up there obfuscates the nature of the ability as triggered - no more "when", "whenever" or "at".
The one thing I don't understand is how we got to the point to use "arrive" or "Arrives" for it though. We already have a perfectly fine word: enter. It's not like we use it in any other context than "enter the battlefield". The most straightforward change is to just remove the two redundant words "the battlefield" and save space with almost the exact same wording - minimal change.
If you really need more text from ETB abilities specifically, how about stopping the use of cardnames and always use "this" in contexts where there is no ambiguity "When Acererak the Archlich enters the battlefield" becomes "When this enters" and you get to keep the signal word for triggered abilities: when.
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
Factions: Sleeping
Remnants: Valheim
Legendary Journey: Heroes & Planeswalkers
Saga: Shards of Rabiah
Legends: The Elder Dragons
Read up on Red Flags & NWO
Players will figure it out. They would figure out Arrive or whatever one word keyword is used anyway.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
It carries the same flavor, is less wordy, and is easy to understand.
"On entrance, draw a card." etc.
(I can see a similar argument being made to change "When CARDNAME dies," to "At death.")
Agreed. I think second way is better as it still uses the “when” template for triggered abilities.
Arrives or simply “enters” is ok.
"When this creature appears from exile..."
HR Analyst. Gamer. Activist | Fearless, and forthright | Aggro-control is a mindset.
Elspeth and Jhoira rock my world.
"Arrives," "enters" or another intuitive word is fine, but I do not want "ETB" or something else that doesn't directly evoke what's actually happening.
I used to be a demigod, but now I'm an omnimage
Or how about “appears”
The
ykeyword should be "dramaticentrance"🔧
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
Factions: Sleeping
Remnants: Valheim
Legendary Journey: Heroes & Planeswalkers
Saga: Shards of Rabiah
Legends: The Elder Dragons
Read up on Red Flags & NWO
HR Analyst. Gamer. Activist | Fearless, and forthright | Aggro-control is a mindset.
Elspeth and Jhoira rock my world.
We've seen this wording supported with Sagas already without ill result. Enters is shorter than any proposed replacements, and would make older printings of cards easily translatable to wider audiences. It seems like the most elegant solution.
It only requires knowing that arrives/leaves refers to the battlefield, while dies refers to graveyard, which I think is intuitive enough. It matches the grammatical usage of dies/leaves in effects like 'whenever a creature dies/arrives/leaves, etc', and it is a bit more action-y sounding than 'enters the battlefield'.
While 'dies' is very flavorful, 'perish' would work for non-creatures too.
It's a shame that summoned/buried can't be used, they are the best choices imho.
The problem with Summon/Summoned is that this is the term they should have given to "create" because that term is very lossy, bland, and monotone.
As a replacement for "enters the battlefield", it's just not as dynamic as it wants to be. You'd be surprised at how much retention it gives to the game when you're forcing players through action-based terminology like this. It breeds mental interaction. The more lossy a term is, the less interaction it breeds, and the less 3 dimensional (and more 2 dimensional) the gaming experience becomes.
Personally, I think that this problem only exists truly for people who toil over the term hundreds of times in short periods of time (creators of cards).
To save oneself the discomfort of redundancy (burnout), it's easy to consider a cheap bailout for yourself; especially if you're unaware at just what dynamics are at hand here—or what the action-based event holds here.
I still say appears is better. Enchantments don't casually arrive on the field. Unless they are sentient enchantments
HR Analyst. Gamer. Activist | Fearless, and forthright | Aggro-control is a mindset.
Elspeth and Jhoira rock my world.