all resonate with me due to their fierce femininity.
'buster
I like the diversity of depictions of female characters. They range from super butch to super fem, and are always shown as fully capable. Bird Maiden was always a great favorite of mine from childhood. And original Cuombajj Witches as well. That was quite an image when I was young.
But male characters are less diverse in their depictions. There's a lot of "RAAAAARRRRGH! Sweaty man with muscles and sword!" Lots of gruff men with scraggly beards, and grouchy wizards. It's nice to see a Humble Defector, or a Hazduhr the Abbot, or the guy who made friends with a dinosaur on Forbidden Friendship. Ya know, dudes who aren't hulking wads of testostrone. I really love Hans Eriksson (speaking of bears).
But there are a few dudes that set off the ol' gaydar. Sorry, Beloved Princess. Your Charming Prince's interests lie elsewhere. And there's something about that Echo Mage.
I mostly wanted to point out succumb to temptation because I feel like it somehow went under the radar as a very homoerotic card. I don't remember people talking about it a lot at the time.
Nonetheless, my favorite art tends to be for stylistic reasons rather than for excellent character depictions.
But, god forbid is we actually give also visibility and sign of inclusivity of people that are actually hated and discriminated for just being born in a certain way (like LGBT or BIPOC people)? I know it sounds absurd but it's almost like that all this discrimination and resentment against those minorities could actually confirm and self-explains why those same minorities are target of discrimination and resentment in society for still (too) many people. What a curious coincidence huh?
Its a silly April Fools joke, people took it as the joke it is.
In the lefty (as in left-handed) art they didnt do sexual implicit content, they followed a proper "left handed" art gimmick.
Here they pull the sexualized art, which gets critique ALL THE TIME, not just now.
And right here, its not even a tremendous BAD reception or critique in this thread.
Its Pandering for donations and a group of people that are easily rallied like is clearly visible.
And some people get triggered by literally nothing to a serious degree thats not healthy for them.
----
So its important to not give in to the seeming urge to direct insults, as a bunch of people do here.
Its fine if people like this product with a passion, and its fine if people critique it for whatever reason, and its fine as long as that is discussed in a reasonable polite manner (as it easily slips in politics in these topics, while its not related to any politics at all, its this product, its artwork and the pandering for donations, which has certain political implications, but thats not a topic to discuss in this forum).
If companies create specialty products for donations for cancer research, is that pandering?
'buster
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'buster
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Its a silly April Fools joke, people took it as the joke it is.
In the lefty (as in left-handed) art they didnt do sexual implicit content, they followed a proper "left handed" art gimmick.
Dude, you're completely missing the point. This Is not about sex. Just look what hell of a thread was the "Black is Magic" in this same site and had nothing to do with any sexualization of sorta. Even that other guy which I screenshotted the reply has zero argument about sex while complaining this thread.
With that "it was just a silly april fool joke" (and not even that is so accurate or relevant since those left-handed art were real cards to spend real money and legal in tournaments exactly as those ones), you are confirming exactly my point. That minorities are ok as long as they are just something to joke about and they do not questioning the status quo (since almost nobody today seriously discriminate and hate left-handed people). But guess what, each time the LGBT or BIPOC people get ANY representation at all, there's always, always people like Warforged Canuck that has to start a *****storm. Against people that not only are not still fully accepted in many western countries, but that are even killed for the law, or tortured, or imprisoned in many nations of the world for just being LGBT and nothing else. And that western culture did the same exact thing for millennia, since christianity was the main and only dominant religion allowed. And do you think you can scrap away millennia of death, tortures, blood and repression in just few decades of this last years of history? This thread itself is the -umpteenth- evidence that this ancient, rooted cultural discrimination and hate is still very real and very hard to die.
all resonate with me due to their fierce femininity.
'buster
I like the diversity of depictions of female characters. They range from super butch to super fem, and are always shown as fully capable. Bird Maiden was always a great favorite of mine from childhood. And Cuombajj Witches as well. That was quite an image when I was young.
But male characters are less diverse in their depictions. There's a lot of "RAAAAARRRRGH! Sweaty man with muscles and sword!" Lots of gruff men with scraggly beards, and grouchy wizards. It's nice to see a Humble Defector, or a Hazduhr the Abbot, or the guy who made friends with a dinosaur on Forbidden Friendship. Ya know, dudes who aren't hulking wads of testostrone. I really love Hans Eriksson (speaking of bears).
But there are a few dudes that set off the ol' gaydar. Sorry, Beloved Princess. Your Charming Prince's interests lie elsewhere. And there's something about that Echo Mage.
I mostly wanted to point out succumb to temptation because I feel like it somehow went under the radar as a very homoerotic card. I don't remember people talking about it a lot at the time.
Nonetheless, my favorite art tends to be for stylistic reasons rather than for excellent character depictions.
I think it would have been interesting to see the story of succumb to temptation whether it is meant to be erotic or not. It is leaving a lot of details out. Vampires in general are erotic in nature which can sometimes be a bad thing lol. I think during the 90s most male characters were old men in Mtg. We’re getting a variety of depictions now which is good. My husbando art though is sorin the mirthless lol. I love that art so much lol.
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Embrace the dark you call a home,
Gaze upon an empty, white throne
A legacy of lies,
A familiar disguise
Sing with me a song of conquest and fate
The black pillar cracks beneath its weight
Night breaks through the day, hard as a stone
Lost in thoughts all alone
Its a silly April Fools joke, people took it as the joke it is.
In the lefty (as in left-handed) art they didnt do sexual implicit content, they followed a proper "left handed" art gimmick.
Dude, you're completely missing the point. This Is not about sex. Just look what hell of a thread was the "Black is Magic" in this same site and had nothing to do with any sexualization of sorta. Even that other guy which I screenshotted the reply has zero argument about sex while complaining this thread.
With that "it was just a silly april fool joke" (and not even that is so accurate or relevant since those left-handed art were real cards to spend real money and legal in tournaments exactly as those ones), you are confirming exactly my point. That minorities are ok as long as they are just something to joke about and they do not questioning the status quo (since almost nobody today seriously discriminate and hate left-handed people). But guess what, each time the LGBT or BIPOC people get ANY representation at all, there's always, always people like Warforged Canuck that has to start a *****storm. Against people that not only are not still fully accepted in many western countries, but that are even killed for the law, or tortured, or imprisoned in many nation of the world for just being LGBT and nothing else. And that western culture did the same exact thing for millennia, since christianity was the main and only dominant religion allowed. And do you think you can scrap away millennia of death, tortures, blood and repression in just few decades of this last years of history? This thread itself is the -umpteenth- evidence that this ancient, rooted cultural discrimination and hate is still very real and very hard to die.
To touch on this, it's important to highlight the contrast.
Left-handed people, whether in jest or seriously, do not need to be perceived in a sexual manner. But the LGBTQ community is about love and romance between people. So it will most likely have to be perceived in a sexual/romantic manner to some degree.
The contrast and scope is very different from a left-handed, or even a Black is Magic, product catered to those particular groups.
EDIT: If we're going on about sexualization in MTG, check out Soothing Balm. We know where that guy wanted to direct Orim's hand to.
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I'm a little confused by your argument here. Earlier it seemed you were suggesting that the art is overtly sexual like the Chandra/Liliana art, which most people seemed to strongly disagree with. And now you're pointing to this four year old Blogatog post which, if anything, seems to hurt your argument.
If Wizards is making a conscious effort to move away from art that would make a subset of players feel uncomfortable and they are printing a card with this art, then it seems to me that suggests they don't believe this art would make people feel uncomfortable. Likely because they don't see it as overtly sexual.
Their are people for and against it. I want WotC to have at least some kind of consistency in their art-policy and not flip/flop around, depending on what they want to pander to.
The kind of quality control that goes into Secret Lair is a lot less (so artists get more "freedom" to decide, they probably dont censor it as much as they do on Magic cards, and a lot of them are censored in the process of making them, its a lot of cleavage thats covered up on art, and some changes for other markets, like China that dont want human skulls, so they often avoid that from the get go, rather than making new art just for the chinese language version of the card, which they otherwise often did as well).
Consistency is the matter at hand.
The mark post makes clear that they wanted to drastically reduce potential sexual depictions on card art, as they got complains.
Here they abandoned that, and they already get the heat for it (clearly not as much in this thread, but there are vocal people about it that welcome the pandering, and nobody insults them and they are fine to like the product, as are people to critique the product).
I think I understand what you're saying, but it seems like your argument is still stemming from your opinion that the art is overtly sexual. Again, I feel that the fact the art is being printed shows that Wizards does not view it as problematic artwork. And while you may see a lack of consistency in WotC policies and decisions, I think it might be more accurate to say that WotC's decisions are not consistent with your values and opinions.
I'm not too sure if I understand what you're suggesting with Gathering Throng. Are you saying that Wizards should have covered-up the two men in the background for the official version of the art in the same manner that they covered up the cleavage? If so, I feel as though these are very different examples. While I would argue that breasts and cleavage are not inherently sexual, I do understand that the broader view of society is that they are so I can at least understand the logic behind the censorship. Conversely, I do not see anything sexual about the two men in the background of Bearscape; whether it be in my own views or the views of society at large. Intimate? Sure. Romantic? Probably. But sexual seems like a stretch to me. Granted, that's just my opinion, and your opinion differs. But again, the fact that it's being printed suggests that WotC's opinion is closer to mine.
The mark post makes clear that they wanted to drastically reduce potential sexual depictions on card art, as they got complains.
Here they abandoned that, and they already get the heat for it (clearly not as much in this thread, but there are vocal people about it that welcome the pandering, and nobody insults them and they are fine to like the product, as are people to critique the product).
Bolded the key difference in your post between what this Secret Lair depicts and what was asked in that post. Cheesecake is the overt sexualization of a person. This Secret Lair is about sexuality (and other aspects of the LGBTQIA+ community). That is not the same.
Bearscape and arguably most of the art, is romantic in nature, not sexual. Some may find the depictions attractive, but that is the case for literally all art.
I'm legitimately curious, did you ever have problems with Enthralling Victor, Captivating Crew, or Tenacious Underdog? Or because they tie into the power fantasy aspect of male art, did you even notice? Because those would have been better examples of what you were trying to say re: cheesecake and Magic art.
I'd still disagree (for a lot of complicated reasons concerning the differences in power structures and the history of media in nerd spaces) but it would be a more nuanced argument we could actually dig into.
Here is the one thing I will give you. You are correct in that lots of people are much weirder about topless women than topless men.
If companies create specialty products for donations for cancer research, is that pandering?
'buster
Yes.
Cancer especially is used to pander to people emotions to them relate to a product as they lost a relative to cancer (most likely), or have it themselves at some point.
Donations are not bad, everyone can do that at all times, to whatever cause they want to, and its most honorable to do so without sprouting about it in public (its already a tax deduction and all of that, so there are incentives anyway).
While something like cancer is basically something almost anybody can somehow relate to, other topics become loaded with political baggage (like someone would support certain war efforts with donations, would be quite questionable).
Dude, you're completely missing the point. This Is not about sex. Just look what hell of a thread was the "Black is Magic" in this same site and had nothing to do with any sexualization of sorta. Even that other guy which I screenshotted the reply has zero argument about sex while complaining this thread.
...
You get crazy off-topic.
Like seriously, this should not have any political meaning, no religious meaning or anything involving that stuff.
Its all about the product, and the pandering of WotC for the agenda at hand, which is very openly political loaded (which regularly triggers this kind of threads, but thats probably what WotC wants to archive anyway).
To you want to argue its not pandering ? Then how so.
Its a silly April Fools joke, people took it as the joke it is.
In the lefty (as in left-handed) art they didnt do sexual implicit content, they followed a proper "left handed" art gimmick.
Dude, you're completely missing the point. This Is not about sex. Just look what hell of a thread was the "Black is Magic" in this same site and had nothing to do with any sexualization of sorta. Even that other guy which I screenshotted the reply has zero argument about sex while complaining this thread.
With that "it was just a silly april fool joke" (and not even that is so accurate or relevant since those left-handed art were real cards to spend real money and legal in tournaments exactly as those ones), you are confirming exactly my point. That minorities are ok as long as they are just something to joke about and they do not questioning the status quo (since almost nobody today seriously discriminate and hate left-handed people). But guess what, each time the LGBT or BIPOC people get ANY representation at all, there's always, always people like Warforged Canuck that has to start a *****storm. Against people that not only are not still fully accepted in many western countries, but that are even killed for the law, or tortured, or imprisoned in many nation of the world for just being LGBT and nothing else. And that western culture did the same exact thing for millennia, since christianity was the main and only dominant religion allowed. And do you think you can scrap away millennia of death, tortures, blood and repression in just few decades of this last years of history? This thread itself is the -umpteenth- evidence that this ancient, rooted cultural discrimination and hate is still very real and very hard to die.
To touch on this, it's important to highlight the contrast.
Left-handed people, whether in jest or seriously, do not need to be perceived in a sexual manner. But the LGBTQ community is about love and romance between people. So it will most likely have to be perceived in a sexual/romantic manner to some degree.
The contrast and scope is very different from a left-handed, or even a Black is Magic, product catered to those particular groups.
EDIT: If we're going on about sexualization in MTG, check out Soothing Balm. We know where that guy wanted to direct Orim's hand to.
'buster
My point was simply to prove that if you irrationally don't like something (perhaps not even on a conscious level, but because of how you were educated), anything is an excuse to try to rationalize that discomfort : is too sexual, is a cash-grab move, there's no free speech even if there's no real reason to be against, and so on.
I'm a little confused by your argument here. Earlier it seemed you were suggesting that the art is overtly sexual like the Chandra/Liliana art, which most people seemed to strongly disagree with. And now you're pointing to this four year old Blogatog post which, if anything, seems to hurt your argument.
If Wizards is making a conscious effort to move away from art that would make a subset of players feel uncomfortable and they are printing a card with this art, then it seems to me that suggests they don't believe this art would make people feel uncomfortable. Likely because they don't see it as overtly sexual.
Their are people for and against it. I want WotC to have at least some kind of consistency in their art-policy and not flip/flop around, depending on what they want to pander to.
The kind of quality control that goes into Secret Lair is a lot less (so artists get more "freedom" to decide, they probably dont censor it as much as they do on Magic cards, and a lot of them are censored in the process of making them, its a lot of cleavage thats covered up on art, and some changes for other markets, like China that dont want human skulls, so they often avoid that from the get go, rather than making new art just for the chinese language version of the card, which they otherwise often did as well).
Consistency is the matter at hand.
The mark post makes clear that they wanted to drastically reduce potential sexual depictions on card art, as they got complains.
Here they abandoned that, and they already get the heat for it (clearly not as much in this thread, but there are vocal people about it that welcome the pandering, and nobody insults them and they are fine to like the product, as are people to critique the product).
The post also came out before they released the Secret Lair series to the game. So that is a moot point.
The art looks to be the same. You can still see part of the cleavage. This is a set where the setting mimics the 1920s, a decade of fierce sexual liberation. Each set has its unique aesthetic. The style fits with the theme. I doubt it will be the same in Dominaria United or The Brothers' War.
Wedding InvitationWedding Announcement, among others, has a clear display of cleavage and it's not even part of this aesthetic. These are in standard-issue sets too. Does anyone else see that? Yeah? Ok cool.
Wedding Invitation, among others, has a clear display of cleavage and it's not even part of this aesthetic. These are in standard-issue sets too. Does anyone else see that? Yeah? Ok cool.
Which underlines my point that they are not consistent (while i would argue the cleave is indeed so mild, that you can barely see anything anyway).
If they censor it on some arts and seemingly randomly not on others, why or what is their consistency at that ?
(And thats in the same set even)
The specific of censoring seems to be, if the female breast in shape is visible, they cover it up.
If its just visible from the top cleavage, it "can" stay, but not always will.
Its a silly April Fools joke, people took it as the joke it is.
In the lefty (as in left-handed) art they didnt do sexual implicit content, they followed a proper "left handed" art gimmick.
Dude, you're completely missing the point. This Is not about sex. Just look what hell of a thread was the "Black is Magic" in this same site and had nothing to do with any sexualization of sorta. Even that other guy which I screenshotted the reply has zero argument about sex while complaining this thread.
With that "it was just a silly april fool joke" (and not even that is so accurate or relevant since those left-handed art were real cards to spend real money and legal in tournaments exactly as those ones), you are confirming exactly my point. That minorities are ok as long as they are just something to joke about and they do not questioning the status quo (since almost nobody today seriously discriminate and hate left-handed people). But guess what, each time the LGBT or BIPOC people get ANY representation at all, there's always, always people like Warforged Canuck that has to start a *****storm. Against people that not only are not still fully accepted in many western countries, but that are even killed for the law, or tortured, or imprisoned in many nation of the world for just being LGBT and nothing else. And that western culture did the same exact thing for millennia, since christianity was the main and only dominant religion allowed. And do you think you can scrap away millennia of death, tortures, blood and repression in just few decades of this last years of history? This thread itself is the -umpteenth- evidence that this ancient, rooted cultural discrimination and hate is still very real and very hard to die.
To touch on this, it's important to highlight the contrast.
Left-handed people, whether in jest or seriously, do not need to be perceived in a sexual manner. But the LGBTQ community is about love and romance between people. So it will most likely have to be perceived in a sexual/romantic manner to some degree.
The contrast and scope is very different from a left-handed, or even a Black is Magic, product catered to those particular groups.
EDIT: If we're going on about sexualization in MTG, check out Soothing Balm. We know where that guy wanted to direct Orim's hand to.
'buster
My point was simply to prove that if you irrationally don't like something (perhaps not even on a conscious level, but because of how you were educated), anything is an excuse to try to rationalize that discomfort : is too sexual, is a cash-grab move, there's no free speech even if there's no real reason to be against, and so on.
If it's about a particular agenda, then explain what that agenda is and why it matters to you in this sense.
If you've been paying attention to the conversation majority of the folks here are in favour of this product. There are a handful of standouts--yourself, Simto, Warforged Canuck, to name a few--who are vehemently critical of this particular product based on the reasons you gave in your spiel (too sexual, is a cash-grab, etc), even if it's for a relevant cause that may be outside of your comfort zone.
Let's learn to accept that there are different people with different needs/interests and companies recognizing that is not necessarily a bad thing.
'buster
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'buster
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If it's about a particular agenda, then explain what that agenda is and why it matters to you in this sense.
If you've been paying attention to the conversation majority of the folks here are in favour of this product. There are a handful of standouts--yourself, Simto, Warforged Canuck, to name a few--who are vehemently critical of this particular product based on the reasons you gave in your spiel (too sexual, is a cash-grab, etc), even if it's for a relevant cause that may be outside of your comfort zone.
Let's learn to accept that there are different people with different needs/interests and companies recognizing that is not necessarily a bad thing.
'buster
I dont want any politically charged agenda in my card game.
Quite simple.
I dont want any of the characters to display any sexual preference, its a fantasy game that does not need sexually charged anything.
I also dont want any display of Religious anything in the game (they had real world references on the very early cards, and removed that, nobody cries about it, thats what people wanted anyway, more fantasy in the fantasy game).
But no matter what, they must be consistent (not pick something and show that, while censoring something else, which makes it pandering again, and its basically guaranteed to leave something left out, intentionally or not).
If you've been paying attention to the conversation majority of the folks here are in favour of this product.
Maybe because people go on instant attack mode if somebody doesn't like it? And it's not exactly fun to argue about something where people won't change their mind on either side anyway? People here are just generally louder about that sort of thing too? Also see somebody here is calling for the abortion of people who don't like it. I mean, calm down lol, it's just a card game at the end of the day.
But I say who cares anyway. If you like it, then you're free to buy it. If you don't, then you're free to not buy it too.
I dont want any politically charged agenda in my card game.
Quite simple.
I dont want any of the characters to display any sexual preference, its a fantasy game that does not need sexually charged anything.
I also dont want any display of Religious anything in the game (they had real world references on the very early cards, and removed that, nobody cries about it, thats what people wanted anyway, more fantasy in the fantasy game).
But no matter what, they must be consistent (not pick something and show that, while censoring something else, which makes it pandering again, and its basically guaranteed to leave something left out, intentionally or not).
The existence of LGBTQIA+ people is not an agenda. And it's only political because people with power are trying to erase us from existence.
If you want a game that doesn't have any political elements to it, I suggest Tic-Tac-Toe.
If you've been paying attention to the conversation majority of the folks here are in favour of this product. There are a handful of standouts--yourself,
I think you did a little mess with the replies and you weren't actually talking about me
Lol oh no, I've actually supported your comments throughout this whole conversation. As alluded to earlier, I'm part of the LGBT community too, so I'm super in favour of this type of product.
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I dont want any politically charged agenda in my card game.
Quite simple.
I dont want any of the characters to display any sexual preference, its a fantasy game that does not need sexually charged anything.
See, I'm a bisexual man, and I know when I'm dating cis women, it's not 'politically charged'. But when I date cis men, or trans or non-binary people, suddenly it is somehow. But that's not about me and my partners, that's the rest of the world's expectations and assumptions.
I'm not convinced that having every character be genderless, asexual and aromantic would actually make it a better game. The characters in Ludo or Monopoly are those things, but even something as abstract as Chess comes with some gender role baggage.
If you treat Magic's characters like pieces of cardboard or purely game pieces, you lose some of this game. And whether they're straight or queer, I prefer my characters to be able to express and embody a full range of the human experience and human emotions - including sex and romance.
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"Did you think to kill me? There's no flesh and blood within this cloak to kill. There is only an idea. Ideas are bulletproof." - V, V for Vendetta. Alan Moore
If you've been paying attention to the conversation majority of the folks here are in favour of this product.
Maybe because people go on instant attack mode if somebody doesn't like it? And it's not exactly fun to argue about something where people won't change their mind on either side anyway? People here are just generally louder about that sort of thing too? Also see somebody here is calling for the abortion of people who don't like it. I mean, calm down lol, it's just a card game at the end of the day.
But I say who cares anyway. If you like it, then you're free to buy it. If you don't, then you're free to not buy it too.
Nobody is calling for anyone to be aborted, you centrist ****.
If you treat Magic's characters like pieces of cardboard or purely game pieces, you lose some of this game. And whether they're straight or queer, I prefer my characters to be able to express and embody a full range of the human experience and human emotions - including sex and romance.
Which comes at the cost that some people will not like it, and other will, and get vocal about it.
The game itself doesnt even need it, as thats exactly what all the kind of fan-fiction was made for, pushing sexualized content into the realm of games and fantasy characters that would not have it. (I mean, there are fan-fictions about the Monopoly men, you certainly find it, if you want to)
So it does not come at a loss if the game does not put a sexualize preference on every character, it doesnt add or remove anything positive, while it clearly does upset some people to a degree that it bothers them, and its avoidable to simply not have it, so it does not bother them, and anybody that wants that kind of information is free to make it their personalized fan-fiction to give any character whatever sexual attraction they might want (so leaving that out leaves room for fanatasy as well, as some might be upset that a specific character is not gay, as they wanted him or her to be gay, and others might be upset that their favourite waifu is not straight, so theres that as well).
----
For artwork in specific WotC made the decision to turn back the female cleavage on cards, as artists liked to draw the nice too look at cleavage, but they took the negative responses from some people as a motivation to turn it down from then on.
Magic certainly changed a bunch of these notches over its time, some art is declared racist / sexist and outright banned, which made them just even more sought after cards for other kinds of collectors that dont mind these issues as much as the agenda driven approach that WotC is going (as there is plenty of cards to inject some problematic idea into, and its not consistent what they banned and plenty of people disagree with the reasoning for specific cards as well, so that entire thing died out quickly too, its not a big deal anymore, as cards like Earthbind are still famously around, which arguably shouldnt be the case, but then it opens up the entire sand bag of what sexualized pictures should all be banned, which might drive the numbers in the hundreds or more).
I dont want any of the characters to display any sexual preference, its a fantasy game that does not need sexually charged anything.
Setting aside your seeming to conflate sexual preference and sexualization, saying you "dont want any of the characters to display any sexual preference" means you also don't want any male/female relationships portrayed either, because heterosexual is a sexual preference just like any other except statistically that its more common.
So no Jace and Liliana
No Gerrard and Hanna
No Elspeth and Daxos
No Olivia and Edgar
Would the game actually be better if the only human condition explored in the cards and fiction was fighting?
If you treat Magic's characters like pieces of cardboard or purely game pieces, you lose some of this game. And whether they're straight or queer, I prefer my characters to be able to express and embody a full range of the human experience and human emotions - including sex and romance.
Which comes at the cost that some people will not like it, and other will, and get vocal about it.
The game itself doesnt even need it, as thats exactly what all the kind of fan-fiction was made for, pushing sexualized content into the realm of games and fantasy characters that would not have it. (I mean, there are fan-fictions about the Monopoly men, you certainly find it, if you want to)
So it does not come at a loss if the game does not put a sexualize preference on every character, it doesnt add or remove anything positive, while it clearly does upset some people to a degree that it bothers them, and its avoidable to simply not have it, so it does not bother them, and anybody that wants that kind of information is free to make it their personalized fan-fiction to give any character whatever sexual attraction they might want (so leaving that out leaves room for fanatasy as well, as some might be upset that a specific character is not gay, as they wanted him or her to be gay, and others might be upset that their favourite waifu is not straight, so theres that as well).
----
For artwork in specific WotC made the decision to turn back the female cleavage on cards, as artists liked to draw the nice too look at cleavage, but they took the negative responses from some people as a motivation to turn it down from then on.
Magic certainly changed a bunch of these notches over its time, some art is declared racist / sexist and outright banned, which made them just even more sought after cards for other kinds of collectors that dont mind these issues as much as the agenda driven approach that WotC is going (as there is plenty of cards to inject some problematic idea into, and its not consistent what they banned and plenty of people disagree with the reasoning for specific cards as well, so that entire thing died out quickly too, its not a big deal anymore, as cards like Earthbind are still famously around, which arguably shouldnt be the case, but then it opens up the entire sand bag of what sexualized pictures should all be banned, which might drive the numbers in the hundreds or more).
Why does it take you so many words to say "I don't understand what consistency, sexuality, and sex are."? Just do human intelligence a favor and shut the **** up already. We get it, you're big mad about being a worthless piece of *****. Sorry that your dying demographic isn't being exclusively pandered to in a world of safe spaces that protect you from -checks notes- other people existing.
Why does it take you so many words to say "I don't understand what consistency, sexuality, and sex are."? Just do human intelligence a favor and shut the **** up already. We get it, you're big mad about being a worthless piece of *****. Sorry that your dying demographic isn't being exclusively pandered to in a world of safe spaces that protect you from -checks notes- other people existing.
You can choose to press the ignore button if you dont want to have a reasonable dialogue, but your mindless rambling of insults and nonsense leads nowhere other than spam.
If you treat Magic's characters like pieces of cardboard or purely game pieces, you lose some of this game. And whether they're straight or queer, I prefer my characters to be able to express and embody a full range of the human experience and human emotions - including sex and romance.
Which comes at the cost that some people will not like it, and other will, and get vocal about it.
The game itself doesnt even need it, as thats exactly what all the kind of fan-fiction was made for, pushing sexualized content into the realm of games and fantasy characters that would not have it. (I mean, there are fan-fictions about the Monopoly men, you certainly find it, if you want to)
I mean, I guess Magic doesn't 'need it', exactly. But I personally find Magic's flavour a compelling part of the game. I don't think you're really advocating this, but for the proper 'blank slate' you need to remove gender and sex, sexuality, race, and any other kind of humanly-identifiable characteristic from every card, and the game is then 'red 2/1 amorphous blob' vs 'green 2/2 amorphous blob'. That's possible, but I don't find it a compelling vision for Magic's future.
The fact is, most media (this card game included) treats certain things as the default: maleness, cisness, whiteness and, yes, straightness. So not making characters' sexuality explicit means they're straight. And people can write fanfic, sure, but I speak from personal experience when I say it's a hell of a lot nicer when the people making the media I enjoy include some representation rather than making me and my friends do the work for them. Straight people get that whenever a character's sexuality is unaddressed or ambiguous. Queer people only get it when it's explicit.
"Did you think to kill me? There's no flesh and blood within this cloak to kill. There is only an idea. Ideas are bulletproof." - V, V for Vendetta. Alan Moore
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I like the diversity of depictions of female characters. They range from super butch to super fem, and are always shown as fully capable. Bird Maiden was always a great favorite of mine from childhood. And original Cuombajj Witches as well. That was quite an image when I was young.
But male characters are less diverse in their depictions. There's a lot of "RAAAAARRRRGH! Sweaty man with muscles and sword!" Lots of gruff men with scraggly beards, and grouchy wizards. It's nice to see a Humble Defector, or a Hazduhr the Abbot, or the guy who made friends with a dinosaur on Forbidden Friendship. Ya know, dudes who aren't hulking wads of testostrone. I really love Hans Eriksson (speaking of bears).
But there are a few dudes that set off the ol' gaydar. Sorry, Beloved Princess. Your Charming Prince's interests lie elsewhere. And there's something about that Echo Mage.
I mostly wanted to point out succumb to temptation because I feel like it somehow went under the radar as a very homoerotic card. I don't remember people talking about it a lot at the time.
Nonetheless, my favorite art tends to be for stylistic reasons rather than for excellent character depictions.
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If companies create specialty products for donations for cancer research, is that pandering?
'buster
HR Analyst. Gamer. Activist | Fearless, and forthright | Aggro-control is a mindset.
Elspeth and Jhoira rock my world.
Dude, you're completely missing the point. This Is not about sex. Just look what hell of a thread was the "Black is Magic" in this same site and had nothing to do with any sexualization of sorta. Even that other guy which I screenshotted the reply has zero argument about sex while complaining this thread.
With that "it was just a silly april fool joke" (and not even that is so accurate or relevant since those left-handed art were real cards to spend real money and legal in tournaments exactly as those ones), you are confirming exactly my point. That minorities are ok as long as they are just something to joke about and they do not questioning the status quo (since almost nobody today seriously discriminate and hate left-handed people). But guess what, each time the LGBT or BIPOC people get ANY representation at all, there's always, always people like Warforged Canuck that has to start a *****storm. Against people that not only are not still fully accepted in many western countries, but that are even killed for the law, or tortured, or imprisoned in many nations of the world for just being LGBT and nothing else. And that western culture did the same exact thing for millennia, since christianity was the main and only dominant religion allowed. And do you think you can scrap away millennia of death, tortures, blood and repression in just few decades of this last years of history? This thread itself is the -umpteenth- evidence that this ancient, rooted cultural discrimination and hate is still very real and very hard to die.
I think it would have been interesting to see the story of succumb to temptation whether it is meant to be erotic or not. It is leaving a lot of details out. Vampires in general are erotic in nature which can sometimes be a bad thing lol. I think during the 90s most male characters were old men in Mtg. We’re getting a variety of depictions now which is good. My husbando art though is sorin the mirthless lol. I love that art so much lol.
Gaze upon an empty, white throne
A legacy of lies,
A familiar disguise
Sing with me a song of conquest and fate
The black pillar cracks beneath its weight
Night breaks through the day, hard as a stone
Lost in thoughts all alone
To touch on this, it's important to highlight the contrast.
Left-handed people, whether in jest or seriously, do not need to be perceived in a sexual manner. But the LGBTQ community is about love and romance between people. So it will most likely have to be perceived in a sexual/romantic manner to some degree.
The contrast and scope is very different from a left-handed, or even a Black is Magic, product catered to those particular groups.
EDIT: If we're going on about sexualization in MTG, check out Soothing Balm. We know where that guy wanted to direct Orim's hand to.
'buster
HR Analyst. Gamer. Activist | Fearless, and forthright | Aggro-control is a mindset.
Elspeth and Jhoira rock my world.
I think I understand what you're saying, but it seems like your argument is still stemming from your opinion that the art is overtly sexual. Again, I feel that the fact the art is being printed shows that Wizards does not view it as problematic artwork. And while you may see a lack of consistency in WotC policies and decisions, I think it might be more accurate to say that WotC's decisions are not consistent with your values and opinions.
I'm not too sure if I understand what you're suggesting with Gathering Throng. Are you saying that Wizards should have covered-up the two men in the background for the official version of the art in the same manner that they covered up the cleavage? If so, I feel as though these are very different examples. While I would argue that breasts and cleavage are not inherently sexual, I do understand that the broader view of society is that they are so I can at least understand the logic behind the censorship. Conversely, I do not see anything sexual about the two men in the background of Bearscape; whether it be in my own views or the views of society at large. Intimate? Sure. Romantic? Probably. But sexual seems like a stretch to me. Granted, that's just my opinion, and your opinion differs. But again, the fact that it's being printed suggests that WotC's opinion is closer to mine.
Bolded the key difference in your post between what this Secret Lair depicts and what was asked in that post. Cheesecake is the overt sexualization of a person. This Secret Lair is about sexuality (and other aspects of the LGBTQIA+ community). That is not the same.
Bearscape and arguably most of the art, is romantic in nature, not sexual. Some may find the depictions attractive, but that is the case for literally all art.
I'm legitimately curious, did you ever have problems with Enthralling Victor, Captivating Crew, or Tenacious Underdog? Or because they tie into the power fantasy aspect of male art, did you even notice? Because those would have been better examples of what you were trying to say re: cheesecake and Magic art.
I'd still disagree (for a lot of complicated reasons concerning the differences in power structures and the history of media in nerd spaces) but it would be a more nuanced argument we could actually dig into.
Here is the one thing I will give you. You are correct in that lots of people are much weirder about topless women than topless men.
Yes.
Cancer especially is used to pander to people emotions to them relate to a product as they lost a relative to cancer (most likely), or have it themselves at some point.
Donations are not bad, everyone can do that at all times, to whatever cause they want to, and its most honorable to do so without sprouting about it in public (its already a tax deduction and all of that, so there are incentives anyway).
While something like cancer is basically something almost anybody can somehow relate to, other topics become loaded with political baggage (like someone would support certain war efforts with donations, would be quite questionable).
----
You get crazy off-topic.
Like seriously, this should not have any political meaning, no religious meaning or anything involving that stuff.
Its all about the product, and the pandering of WotC for the agenda at hand, which is very openly political loaded (which regularly triggers this kind of threads, but thats probably what WotC wants to archive anyway).
To you want to argue its not pandering ? Then how so.
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My point was simply to prove that if you irrationally don't like something (perhaps not even on a conscious level, but because of how you were educated), anything is an excuse to try to rationalize that discomfort : is too sexual, is a cash-grab move, there's no free speech even if there's no real reason to be against, and so on.
The post also came out before they released the Secret Lair series to the game. So that is a moot point.
The art looks to be the same. You can still see part of the cleavage. This is a set where the setting mimics the 1920s, a decade of fierce sexual liberation. Each set has its unique aesthetic. The style fits with the theme. I doubt it will be the same in Dominaria United or The Brothers' War.
Also,
all say what up. I see cleavage there.
Wedding InvitationWedding Announcement, among others, has a clear display of cleavage and it's not even part of this aesthetic. These are in standard-issue sets too. Does anyone else see that? Yeah? Ok cool.'buster
HR Analyst. Gamer. Activist | Fearless, and forthright | Aggro-control is a mindset.
Elspeth and Jhoira rock my world.
I don't think Wedding Invitation is the card you meant to put down. I think you meant Wedding Announcement/Wedding Festivities.
I mean, it has cleavage in the traditional sense, but not in the way we're talking about now. ; p
Gathering Throng , art got the "usual" cover up of female cleavage.
Original version:
https://www.artstation.com/artwork/4X3Qz8
Which underlines my point that they are not consistent (while i would argue the cleave is indeed so mild, that you can barely see anything anyway).
If they censor it on some arts and seemingly randomly not on others, why or what is their consistency at that ?
(And thats in the same set even)
The specific of censoring seems to be, if the female breast in shape is visible, they cover it up.
If its just visible from the top cleavage, it "can" stay, but not always will.
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I used to be a demigod, but now I'm an omnimage
If it's about a particular agenda, then explain what that agenda is and why it matters to you in this sense.
If you've been paying attention to the conversation majority of the folks here are in favour of this product. There are a handful of standouts--yourself, Simto, Warforged Canuck, to name a few--who are vehemently critical of this particular product based on the reasons you gave in your spiel (too sexual, is a cash-grab, etc), even if it's for a relevant cause that may be outside of your comfort zone.
Let's learn to accept that there are different people with different needs/interests and companies recognizing that is not necessarily a bad thing.
'buster
HR Analyst. Gamer. Activist | Fearless, and forthright | Aggro-control is a mindset.
Elspeth and Jhoira rock my world.
I dont want any politically charged agenda in my card game.
Quite simple.
I dont want any of the characters to display any sexual preference, its a fantasy game that does not need sexually charged anything.
I also dont want any display of Religious anything in the game (they had real world references on the very early cards, and removed that, nobody cries about it, thats what people wanted anyway, more fantasy in the fantasy game).
But no matter what, they must be consistent (not pick something and show that, while censoring something else, which makes it pandering again, and its basically guaranteed to leave something left out, intentionally or not).
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
Maybe because people go on instant attack mode if somebody doesn't like it? And it's not exactly fun to argue about something where people won't change their mind on either side anyway? People here are just generally louder about that sort of thing too? Also see somebody here is calling for the abortion of people who don't like it. I mean, calm down lol, it's just a card game at the end of the day.
But I say who cares anyway. If you like it, then you're free to buy it. If you don't, then you're free to not buy it too.
The existence of LGBTQIA+ people is not an agenda. And it's only political because people with power are trying to erase us from existence.
If you want a game that doesn't have any political elements to it, I suggest Tic-Tac-Toe.
Lol oh no, I've actually supported your comments throughout this whole conversation. As alluded to earlier, I'm part of the LGBT community too, so I'm super in favour of this type of product.
'buster
HR Analyst. Gamer. Activist | Fearless, and forthright | Aggro-control is a mindset.
Elspeth and Jhoira rock my world.
See, I'm a bisexual man, and I know when I'm dating cis women, it's not 'politically charged'. But when I date cis men, or trans or non-binary people, suddenly it is somehow. But that's not about me and my partners, that's the rest of the world's expectations and assumptions.
I'm not convinced that having every character be genderless, asexual and aromantic would actually make it a better game. The characters in Ludo or Monopoly are those things, but even something as abstract as Chess comes with some gender role baggage.
If you treat Magic's characters like pieces of cardboard or purely game pieces, you lose some of this game. And whether they're straight or queer, I prefer my characters to be able to express and embody a full range of the human experience and human emotions - including sex and romance.
Nobody is calling for anyone to be aborted, you centrist ****.
Which comes at the cost that some people will not like it, and other will, and get vocal about it.
The game itself doesnt even need it, as thats exactly what all the kind of fan-fiction was made for, pushing sexualized content into the realm of games and fantasy characters that would not have it. (I mean, there are fan-fictions about the Monopoly men, you certainly find it, if you want to)
So it does not come at a loss if the game does not put a sexualize preference on every character, it doesnt add or remove anything positive, while it clearly does upset some people to a degree that it bothers them, and its avoidable to simply not have it, so it does not bother them, and anybody that wants that kind of information is free to make it their personalized fan-fiction to give any character whatever sexual attraction they might want (so leaving that out leaves room for fanatasy as well, as some might be upset that a specific character is not gay, as they wanted him or her to be gay, and others might be upset that their favourite waifu is not straight, so theres that as well).
----
For artwork in specific WotC made the decision to turn back the female cleavage on cards, as artists liked to draw the nice too look at cleavage, but they took the negative responses from some people as a motivation to turn it down from then on.
Magic certainly changed a bunch of these notches over its time, some art is declared racist / sexist and outright banned, which made them just even more sought after cards for other kinds of collectors that dont mind these issues as much as the agenda driven approach that WotC is going (as there is plenty of cards to inject some problematic idea into, and its not consistent what they banned and plenty of people disagree with the reasoning for specific cards as well, so that entire thing died out quickly too, its not a big deal anymore, as cards like Earthbind are still famously around, which arguably shouldnt be the case, but then it opens up the entire sand bag of what sexualized pictures should all be banned, which might drive the numbers in the hundreds or more).
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
Setting aside your seeming to conflate sexual preference and sexualization, saying you "dont want any of the characters to display any sexual preference" means you also don't want any male/female relationships portrayed either, because heterosexual is a sexual preference just like any other except statistically that its more common.
So no Jace and Liliana
No Gerrard and Hanna
No Elspeth and Daxos
No Olivia and Edgar
Would the game actually be better if the only human condition explored in the cards and fiction was fighting?
Why does it take you so many words to say "I don't understand what consistency, sexuality, and sex are."? Just do human intelligence a favor and shut the **** up already. We get it, you're big mad about being a worthless piece of *****. Sorry that your dying demographic isn't being exclusively pandered to in a world of safe spaces that protect you from -checks notes- other people existing.
You can choose to press the ignore button if you dont want to have a reasonable dialogue, but your mindless rambling of insults and nonsense leads nowhere other than spam.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
I mean, I guess Magic doesn't 'need it', exactly. But I personally find Magic's flavour a compelling part of the game. I don't think you're really advocating this, but for the proper 'blank slate' you need to remove gender and sex, sexuality, race, and any other kind of humanly-identifiable characteristic from every card, and the game is then 'red 2/1 amorphous blob' vs 'green 2/2 amorphous blob'. That's possible, but I don't find it a compelling vision for Magic's future.
The fact is, most media (this card game included) treats certain things as the default: maleness, cisness, whiteness and, yes, straightness. So not making characters' sexuality explicit means they're straight. And people can write fanfic, sure, but I speak from personal experience when I say it's a hell of a lot nicer when the people making the media I enjoy include some representation rather than making me and my friends do the work for them. Straight people get that whenever a character's sexuality is unaddressed or ambiguous. Queer people only get it when it's explicit.