Well, one benefit of making Gandalf a planeswalker is that they can't accidentally make them a Human Wizard. I know some people who would give them their piece of mind about that.
Honestly I would be floored if they did "Angel Wizard"
Well, one benefit of making Gandalf a planeswalker is that they can't accidentally make them a Human Wizard. I know some people who would give them their piece of mind about that.
Honestly I would be floored if they did "Angel Wizard"
It’s more accurate than human wizard at least lol. Though I think they should be able to label him as Maiar wizard or just wizard. I think it depends on how the contracts work. Most licensing (if not all) are only allowed to use the actual texts of the lord of the rings and the hobbit and don’t have access to things talked about in the simirilian and other first and second age stuff without consent from the Tolkien estate. I don’t think the term is used so there is a chance he will just be a wizard lol
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Embrace the dark you call a home,
Gaze upon an empty, white throne
A legacy of lies,
A familiar disguise
Sing with me a song of conquest and fate
The black pillar cracks beneath its weight
Night breaks through the day, hard as a stone
Lost in thoughts all alone
Well, one benefit of making Gandalf a planeswalker is that they can't accidentally make them a Human Wizard. I know some people who would give them their piece of mind about that.
Honestly I would be floored if they did "Angel Wizard"
It’s more accurate than human wizard at least lol. Though I think they should be able to label him as Maiar wizard or just wizard. I think it depends on how the contracts work. Most licensing (if not all) are only allowed to use the actual texts of the lord of the rings and the hobbit and don’t have access to things talked about in the simirilian and other first and second age stuff without consent from the Tolkien estate. I don’t think the term is used so there is a chance he will just be a wizard lol
I'm thinking Spirit Wizard, especially for Gandalf the White.
Thinking about it, it makes sense for Sauron and Gandalf to get to be planeswalkers if any LotR characters get to be. And once you think about Maiar this way, then it is a pretty reasonable line to draw. You can throw in Saruman as well and you would have a 1-to-1 mapping of Maia to planeswalker.
I could see WotC going a different route to get more chances for color coverage or have a balance less tilted towards the antagonists, but any occurrence within that system would be satisfying. There are no planeswalkers outside the MtG-verse, but if you had to pick a group of beings as planeswalkers in the LotR setting the Maiar are as good as you are going to get.
I'm thinking Spirit Wizard, especially for Gandalf the White.
But would they put in just Gandalf the White? Gandalf the Grey is the more iconic version.
---
Okay, so I notice we're getting a bit off-topic. But to bring the two topics together, I see this latest planeswalker as an indicator that we might not get quite such a neat system, and we might very well see any member of the fellowship getting that treatment. I wouldn't like it, but I won't complain about it before it happens.
While I'm not thrilled about the pick for a planeswalker card, I can see the allure. Having an associated named animal companion really lends itself to exploration of a unique design space and they have made some use of that here. In a universe where we get this character (pair) on a planeswalker card, the card is executed well. I don't know enough about the source setting to speculate a lot on which further characters might get planeswalker cards. Is there any word on the time period of the setting? Could we get a Jon Irenicus card? Or are we going to see more focus on the recent storyline?
Either way I expect plenty of legendary creatures and a cycle of planeswalkers picked more due to name recognition than anything else.
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Planar Chaos was not a mistake neither was it random. You might want to look at it again.
[thread=239793][Game] Level Up - Creature[/thread]
Sorry to bump this but I just followed up on the dnd day thing and it looks like minsc is on the cover of spelljammer, so that dude /is/ a planeswalker now. Of the astral plane. it was weird enough when they put him in ravenloft but I guess he's a mascot now.
Sorry to bump this but I just followed up on the dnd day thing and it looks like minsc is on the cover of spelljammer, so that dude /is/ a planeswalker now. Of the astral plane. it was weird enough when they put him in ravenloft but I guess he's a mascot now.
Again, D&D is very different to MTG in terms of planeswalking. Doesn't mean he has a 'Spark' he just needs to find virtually any Spellcaster (arcane or divine) with 7th level spells and a tuning fork to travel between planes.
To "planeswalk" you dont need to be a "planeswalker" , but in MTG a "planeswalker" has a very specific meaning , including a Spark.
So mixing the different lores is already bad, but to make random creatures into MTG planeswalker is just a "gimmick", as we already have so many planeswalkers in Magic (which are supposed to be super rare) , that the entire concept is out the window anyway.
To "planeswalk" you dont need to be a "planeswalker" , but in MTG a "planeswalker" has a very specific meaning , including a Spark.
So mixing the different lores is already bad, but to make random creatures into MTG planeswalker is just a "gimmick", as we already have so many planeswalkers in Magic (which are supposed to be super rare) , that the entire concept is out the window anyway.
I mean yeah, but in the dnd mtg crossovers they're pretty specific: they're characters who cross planes, which in dnd are things like the 9 hells, the feywild, the shadowlands, and in the case of minsc now, the astral plane.
I mean the way people play dnd it feels like "oh just find a level 13 wizard" or you know a GM wants to do some fun stuff in the feywilds but really it's actually quite rare, and that's why all the planeswalkers in AFR are gods or a step down from them.
And I'm all for eliminating the profit motive and collectivizing wizards of the coast so that they can solely make decisions based on what they think would be creatively fulfilling rather than what they need to do to bring their shareholders value, but that's a conversation I'm pretty sure you're not that interested in.
[quote from="buffntuff »" url="/forums/magic-fundamentals/the-rumor-mill/825912-clb-minsc-and-boo-planeswalker-battlebond-duals?comment=35"]Magic is way more subtle in middle earth than it is in the magic the gathering multiverse. I wouldn’t expect him to teleport himself down.
well
remember that Gandalf is a wizard
not a sorcerer
if he did·t prepare that spell that day
well
To "planeswalk" you dont need to be a "planeswalker" , but in MTG a "planeswalker" has a very specific meaning , including a Spark.
So mixing the different lores is already bad, but to make random creatures into MTG planeswalker is just a "gimmick", as we already have so many planeswalkers in Magic (which are supposed to be super rare) , that the entire concept is out the window anyway.
I mean yeah, but in the dnd mtg crossovers they're pretty specific: they're characters who cross planes, which in dnd are things like the 9 hells, the feywild, the shadowlands, and in the case of minsc now, the astral plane.
I mean the way people play dnd it feels like "oh just find a level 13 wizard" or you know a GM wants to do some fun stuff in the feywilds but really it's actually quite rare, and that's why all the planeswalkers in AFR are gods or a step down from them.
Minsc has also been to Hell.
And you don't need to be high level to travel between planes if you know where stuff like Fey & Shadow crossings are (people enters these accidently even), outer planes are harder, but portals do exist, as do Horizon Walkers.
puh-leaze , Minsk spent a ******* luxury cruise in hell for nine whole ******* days i did longer than that with a lance in my side in a hospital here on Terra
also which Hell(Phyrexia("Baator") , Carceri , Acheron , Gehenna , etc) are you referring to Ka
To "planeswalk" you dont need to be a "planeswalker" , but in MTG a "planeswalker" has a very specific meaning , including a Spark.
So mixing the different lores is already bad, but to make random creatures into MTG planeswalker is just a "gimmick", as we already have so many planeswalkers in Magic (which are supposed to be super rare) , that the entire concept is out the window anyway.
I mean yeah, but in the dnd mtg crossovers they're pretty specific: they're characters who cross planes, which in dnd are things like the 9 hells, the feywild, the shadowlands, and in the case of minsc now, the astral plane.
I mean the way people play dnd it feels like "oh just find a level 13 wizard" or you know a GM wants to do some fun stuff in the feywilds but really it's actually quite rare, and that's why all the planeswalkers in AFR are gods or a step down from them.
Minsc has also been to Hell.
And you don't need to be high level to travel between planes if you know where stuff like Fey & Shadow crossings are (people enters these accidently even), outer planes are harder, but portals do exist, as do Horizon Walkers.
I mean right but all that is pretty rare stuff, guarded secrets by archdruids and secret clerics of shar and whatever. The vast majority of the population of the forgotten realms only reads about that stuff in books. Even horizon walkers don't get detect portal until level 3, which puts them in the 99th percentile for sapient beings. I've had this conversation a bunch of times, specifically concerning 'create food and water' which is a 3rd level spell level 5 clerics can have, so you would think that this would be a post-scarcity kind of world and starvation just wouldn't exist but actually a level five cleric is like an archbishop and there are maybe 200 of them in the entire world at any given time.
To "planeswalk" you dont need to be a "planeswalker" , but in MTG a "planeswalker" has a very specific meaning , including a Spark.
So mixing the different lores is already bad, but to make random creatures into MTG planeswalker is just a "gimmick", as we already have so many planeswalkers in Magic (which are supposed to be super rare) , that the entire concept is out the window anyway.
I mean yeah, but in the dnd mtg crossovers they're pretty specific: they're characters who cross planes, which in dnd are things like the 9 hells, the feywild, the shadowlands, and in the case of minsc now, the astral plane.
I mean the way people play dnd it feels like "oh just find a level 13 wizard" or you know a GM wants to do some fun stuff in the feywilds but really it's actually quite rare, and that's why all the planeswalkers in AFR are gods or a step down from them.
Minsc has also been to Hell.
And you don't need to be high level to travel between planes if you know where stuff like Fey & Shadow crossings are (people enters these accidently even), outer planes are harder, but portals do exist, as do Horizon Walkers.
I mean right but all that is pretty rare stuff, guarded secrets by archdruids and secret clerics of shar and whatever. The vast majority of the population of the forgotten realms only reads about that stuff in books. Even horizon walkers don't get detect portal until level 3, which puts them in the 99th percentile for sapient beings. I've had this conversation a bunch of times, specifically concerning 'create food and water' which is a 3rd level spell level 5 clerics can have, so you would think that this would be a post-scarcity kind of world and starvation just wouldn't exist but actually a level five cleric is like an archbishop and there are maybe 200 of them in the entire world at any given time.
Not sure where you're getting your information from but that's just not true - the Realms is an extremely high fantasy setting, there are massively powerful characters and entities everywhere. Level 5 is relatively minor and would be easy to find a priest with 3rd level spells in any town or city. 5th edition put a 20 cap on levels for player characters but there is no such power cap for the powerful beings in Faerun and beyond, right up to the Gods themselves who sit around level 40-50 (source: Faiths & Pantheons official supplement).
Also if you think Create Food & Water poses a problem, what about a few hundred Druids (even level 1) casting Goodberry multiple times a day? Hunger solved. Though I don't ever recall reading hunger being an issue in the Realms, populations are fairly low in a resource-abundant world. The pressing issues are constant monster attacks and cataclysmic events on a egular basis I would imagine.
As to your other point about Planeswalkers, of the 4 from AFR only Bahamut is a minor deity - of the rest Mordenkainen is from Greyhawk, Gary Gygax targetted him around a level 12 Wizard but that was many years ago so we can assume he's at least levelled up to use Planeshift. Zariel is a Greater Devil from Avernus so stands to reason he has the ability. The one who is most akin to Minsc therefore would be Ellywick Tumblestrum, a new character, but defined as a bard. Bards do not have access to Planeshift (Clerics, Druids & Wiza/Sorc only) therefore she too will be reliant on others to planeswalk.
I mean right but all that is pretty rare stuff, guarded secrets by archdruids and secret clerics of shar and whatever. The vast majority of the population of the forgotten realms only reads about that stuff in books. Even horizon walkers don't get detect portal until level 3, which puts them in the 99th percentile for sapient beings. I've had this conversation a bunch of times, specifically concerning 'create food and water' which is a 3rd level spell level 5 clerics can have, so you would think that this would be a post-scarcity kind of world and starvation just wouldn't exist but actually a level five cleric is like an archbishop and there are maybe 200 of them in the entire world at any given time.
Not sure where you're getting your information from but that's just not true - the Realms is an extremely high fantasy setting, there are massively powerful characters and entities everywhere. Level 5 is relatively minor and would be easy to find a priest with 3rd level spells in any town or city. 5th edition put a 20 cap on levels for player characters but there is no such power cap for the powerful beings in Faerun and beyond, right up to the Gods themselves who sit around level 40-50 (source: Faiths & Pantheons official supplement).
Also if you think Create Food & Water poses a problem, what about a few hundred Druids (even level 1) casting Goodberry multiple times a day? Hunger solved. Though I don't ever recall reading hunger being an issue in the Realms, populations are fairly low in a resource-abundant world. The pressing issues are constant monster attacks and cataclysmic events on a egular basis I would imagine.
As to your other point about Planeswalkers, of the 4 from AFR only Bahamut is a minor deity - of the rest Mordenkainen is from Greyhawk, Gary Gygax targetted him around a level 12 Wizard but that was many years ago so we can assume he's at least levelled up to use Planeshift. Zariel is a Greater Devil from Avernus so stands to reason he has the ability. The one who is most akin to Minsc therefore would be Ellywick Tumblestrum, a new character, but defined as a bard. Bards do not have access to Planeshift (Clerics, Druids & Wiza/Sorc only) therefore she too will be reliant on others to planeswalk.
Goodberry is a busted spell tbh but also it only covers food, not water. But more to my point was that if there's no resource scarcity in your dnd setting then there's no material way for society to be unequally arranged or essentially feudalist in most settings, or else you have to come up with some explanation why some people work as serfs and other people are kings if all they need to do is take a druid level or form a community around some folks who take cleric levels and just spend all day creating food and water, let alone things like stoneshaping or magical healing. The only way it works is if these abilities are actually rare.
So consequently even in the forgotten realms the vast majority of the population is level 0, i.e. no class levels. While more powerful people are "everywhere" that's more of a case of your party running into them to make for a good story. Folks have been talking about this forever. Even if you expect a real small population of a million people on faerun or something like that (baldur's gate alone is stated to be around 100k people) the 200 or so (really probably less) named super powerful characters represent .0002% of the population. If you're just swinging a sword around you're far more likely to hit "dirt farmer number 5" than "General Atomos of the New Korellean Army, a level 6 fighter." Honestly people quibble on the specifics and you can get lost in the bbs weeds real easily by searching "average level of person on faerun", but level 5 has never been "relatively minor."
Technically gods don't have class levels, they just have various feats and stuff. Even in the earlier editions of dnd that go past level 20 by that point you don't really gain hitpoints or levels, just boons and benefits.
Ellywick's background is such that she's "the greatest bard in the multiverse" thanks to a deck of many things wish, but also specifically she's the main guide npc in their recent feywild book that came out around the same time as afr. You might say "wow she was made up to sell this book" but yes, that is all of these characters, and the feywild is another plane. Apparently she's also not from forgotten realms at all, but some other unknown world on the material plane. Her lute does magic idk. Probably has an amulet of the planes.
Mordenkainen lives in a tower that travels between the planes.
Goodberry is a busted spell tbh but also it only covers food, not water. But more to my point was that if there's no resource scarcity in your dnd setting then there's no material way for society to be unequally arranged or essentially feudalist in most settings, or else you have to come up with some explanation why some people work as serfs and other people are kings if all they need to do is take a druid level or form a community around some folks who take cleric levels and just spend all day creating food and water, let alone things like stoneshaping or magical healing. The only way it works is if these abilities are actually rare.
there will always always always be people whom accumulate power for its own sake
Even if you expect a real small population of a million people on faerun or something like that (baldur's gate alone is stated to be around 100k people) the 200 or so (really probably less) named super powerful characters represent .0002% of the population.
well that·s the thing in Pop 1000 there·s only gonna be like four people that can traverse the planes
at Pop 1,000,000,000 there·s gonna be 200,000 people that can traverse the planes that·s basically the entire city of Sigil
Technically gods don't have class levels, they just have various feats and stuff. Even in the earlier editions of dnd that go past level 20 by that point you don't really gain hitpoints or levels, just boons and benefits.
hm i remember reading that dieties were equivalent to level 40 or 50 characters
Goodberry is a busted spell tbh but also it only covers food, not water. But more to my point was that if there's no resource scarcity in your dnd setting then there's no material way for society to be unequally arranged or essentially feudalist in most settings, or else you have to come up with some explanation why some people work as serfs and other people are kings if all they need to do is take a druid level or form a community around some folks who take cleric levels and just spend all day creating food and water, let alone things like stoneshaping or magical healing. The only way it works is if these abilities are actually rare.
I disagree, Fantasy does not operate like the real world in this regard. Yes there is magic which can do wonderous things, this is either a) innate from birth, b) provided by a deity or patron or c) learned over many years, so you're correct that not everyone could just take a level in Druid and cast Goodberry. However the reason people still gather together in feudal systems is because with this amazing magic comes a host of terrible threats. People accept the rule of Kings and Lords because they are the ones that can keep them safe.
So consequently even in the forgotten realms the vast majority of the population is level 0, i.e. no class levels. While more powerful people are "everywhere" that's more of a case of your party running into them to make for a good story. Folks have been talking about this forever. Even if you expect a real small population of a million people on faerun or something like that (baldur's gate alone is stated to be around 100k people) the 200 or so (really probably less) named super powerful characters represent .0002% of the population. If you're just swinging a sword around you're far more likely to hit "dirt farmer number 5" than "General Atomos of the New Korellean Army, a level 6 fighter." Honestly people quibble on the specifics and you can get lost in the bbs weeds real easily by searching "average level of person on faerun", but level 5 has never been "relatively minor."
The largest city in the Realms, Waterdeep with approximately 2 million in the 15th century, and other large cities/towns all exist because people naturally flock together to keep safe. I'm not debating there are a lot of level 0 'serfs' and yes within these 2 million there will be those in poverty, as in any city, but you really think of those 2 million, a total of 4 people would count as powerful? It's high fantasy, there is power hidden in every nook and cranny and there are multiple high level clerics in every temple. Paying to bring people back from the dead is common, who is casting Raise Dead and Resurrection if the Highest priest is only level 5?
If you lower the fantasy in your own games then good for you, but that's not canon.
Technically gods don't have class levels, they just have various feats and stuff. Even in the earlier editions of dnd that go past level 20 by that point you don't really gain hitpoints or levels, just boons and benefits.
The last time they went through and gave stats to the full pantheon (3.5) they absolutely had levels. You mentioned Selune as an example: Wizard 20/Cleric 20/Bard 9 CR - I have the book here in front of me. If they redid God stats in 5th they'd probably just give them a CR but I doubt they'll bother, they're shifting focus to other settings.
Ellywick's background is such that she's "the greatest bard in the multiverse" thanks to a deck of many things wish, but also specifically she's the main guide npc in their recent feywild book that came out around the same time as afr. You might say "wow she was made up to sell this book" but yes, that is all of these characters, and the feywild is another plane. Apparently she's also not from forgotten realms at all, but some other unknown world on the material plane. Her lute does magic idk. Probably has an amulet of the planes.
Mordenkainen lives in a tower that travels between the planes.
Lolth is absolutely a god.
I forgot Lolth and it's actually the only one I bothered getting! Regardless my point stands - Ellywick could be a level 30 bard, she still wouldn't have the innate ability to Planeswalk. She'd need a spell scroll, help from someone else or an artefact as you say - so by that logic why can't Minsc be a Planeswalker? There is no need for a spark, he's survived Sarevok & Jon Irenicus and has plenty of loot & powerful allies from it, so in this universe there's nothing stopping him.
Don't get me wrong I can't stand the character, he's like the bad joke that WotC still think everyone finds funny - there's so many better characters from the games: Edwin, Korgan, Anomen, Haer'Dalis - even Jan. Regardless there is no reason why he can't be a Planeswalker just like anyone else with the friends/means.
Goodberry is a busted spell tbh but also it only covers food, not water. But more to my point was that if there's no resource scarcity in your dnd setting then there's no material way for society to be unequally arranged or essentially feudalist in most settings, or else you have to come up with some explanation why some people work as serfs and other people are kings if all they need to do is take a druid level or form a community around some folks who take cleric levels and just spend all day creating food and water, let alone things like stoneshaping or magical healing. The only way it works is if these abilities are actually rare.
I disagree, Fantasy does not operate like the real world in this regard. Yes there is magic which can do wonderous things, this is either a) innate from birth, b) provided by a deity or patron or c) learned over many years, so you're correct that not everyone could just take a level in Druid and cast Goodberry. However the reason people still gather together in feudal systems is because with this amazing magic comes a host of terrible threats. People accept the rule of Kings and Lords because they are the ones that can keep them safe.
So consequently even in the forgotten realms the vast majority of the population is level 0, i.e. no class levels. While more powerful people are "everywhere" that's more of a case of your party running into them to make for a good story. Folks have been talking about this forever. Even if you expect a real small population of a million people on faerun or something like that (baldur's gate alone is stated to be around 100k people) the 200 or so (really probably less) named super powerful characters represent .0002% of the population. If you're just swinging a sword around you're far more likely to hit "dirt farmer number 5" than "General Atomos of the New Korellean Army, a level 6 fighter." Honestly people quibble on the specifics and you can get lost in the bbs weeds real easily by searching "average level of person on faerun", but level 5 has never been "relatively minor."
The largest city in the Realms, Waterdeep with approximately 2 million in the 15th century, and other large cities/towns all exist because people naturally flock together to keep safe. I'm not debating there are a lot of level 0 'serfs' and yes within these 2 million there will be those in poverty, as in any city, but you really think of those 2 million, a total of 4 people would count as powerful? It's high fantasy, there is power hidden in every nook and cranny and there are multiple high level clerics in every temple. Paying to bring people back from the dead is common, who is casting Raise Dead and Resurrection if the Highest priest is only level 5?
If you lower the fantasy in your own games then good for you, but that's not canon.
Technically gods don't have class levels, they just have various feats and stuff. Even in the earlier editions of dnd that go past level 20 by that point you don't really gain hitpoints or levels, just boons and benefits.
The last time they went through and gave stats to the full pantheon (3.5) they absolutely had levels. You mentioned Selune as an example: Wizard 20/Cleric 20/Bard 9 CR - I have the book here in front of me. If they redid God stats in 5th they'd probably just give them a CR but I doubt they'll bother, they're shifting focus to other settings.
Ellywick's background is such that she's "the greatest bard in the multiverse" thanks to a deck of many things wish, but also specifically she's the main guide npc in their recent feywild book that came out around the same time as afr. You might say "wow she was made up to sell this book" but yes, that is all of these characters, and the feywild is another plane. Apparently she's also not from forgotten realms at all, but some other unknown world on the material plane. Her lute does magic idk. Probably has an amulet of the planes.
Mordenkainen lives in a tower that travels between the planes.
Lolth is absolutely a god.
I forgot Lolth and it's actually the only one I bothered getting! Regardless my point stands - Ellywick could be a level 30 bard, she still wouldn't have the innate ability to Planeswalk. She'd need a spell scroll, help from someone else or an artefact as you say - so by that logic why can't Minsc be a Planeswalker? There is no need for a spark, he's survived Sarevok & Jon Irenicus and has plenty of loot & powerful allies from it, so in this universe there's nothing stopping him.
Don't get me wrong I can't stand the character, he's like the bad joke that WotC still think everyone finds funny - there's so many better characters from the games: Edwin, Korgan, Anomen, Haer'Dalis - even Jan. Regardless there is no reason why he can't be a Planeswalker just like anyone else with the friends/means.
The characters in Baldur's Gate series tend to encapsulate the types of players found at many tables. In my 25+ years of DMing, there isn't always a Kagan, or a Viconia, or a Jan, or a Hexxat, but there is always, always a Minsc, for better or worse. He's just highly resonant with how and why many people play D&D.
People accept the rule of Kings and Lords because they are the ones that can keep them safe.
That doesn't really track. What you would see in that case is a series of warlords and conquerors and succession would only happen through violence, no princes or royal lines. Every adventuring party that solves a quest would be a tremendous political threat to the existing structure and every town would be organized around and in service to the folks most capable of dealing violence.
You have to understand that the reason we have kings here on normal planet earth is due to the accumulation of wealth. One guy happens to have a farm and a family to run it that's big enough to feed a lot of other guys and he says "hey I'll feed you but you have to build me a house" and eventually it turns into "you have to build me a house or these guys I feed will beat you up." Some patrilineal lines and politically enforced monogamy to guarantee transfers of wealth later you have a bunch of people who are convinced that some people "own" the land and everyone else is just living on it, mainly because if you disagree they kill you.
Wealth here is defined as the power to survive, i.e. food, shelter, medicines, and so on. Gold and gems and so on aren't valuable in itself, they're just a representational medium of exchange for the aforementioned security from the elements. Without resource scarcity, if everyone can just take a druid level by bonking some goblins on the head and feeling in touch with nature about it, it becomes a lot harder to say "you have to build me a house." The closest you're going to get is a society based on "you have to build me a house or I'll let the bugbears get you" but that is not a stable or lasting society.
Assuming bugbears getting you isn't an instant or guaranteed consequence (or say you bonked enough goblins on the head that bugbears can't get you) you're far more likely to see a society that is based on free association with at best ad-hoc consensually elected leaders. You build someone a house because you like them or they're going to give you some magic trinket you're interested in or something along those lines.
It is for this reason that feudal campaign settings require some kind of resource scarcity or a rarity of skill to make any sense, or else the DM starts having to answer difficult questions about social structure, namely "why does anyone listen to the lord?" And if the answer is "because displacer beasts in the wild will get them" there are several followup questions about how that works too like "why don't they just kill all the displacer beasts" or "if there are still displacer beasts out there that the lord hasn't killed, what good are they exactly?" or "If we the party kill the displacer beasts and guarantee the safety of the people then aren't we the lords now?".
It's a lot easier to just say "yeah in order to continue to be alive they need to grow a lot of food and the lord owns this land so if they want to grow food on this land they have to get the lord's permission or the lord will kill them and to get the lord's permission they have to do stuff for the lord. Monsters are an extraneous threat compared to the kingsguard busting down your door for refusing to pay taxes."
Seriously though google it you are a dissenting voice in the estimations of a bunch of DMs.
You mentioned Selune as an example: Wizard 20/Cleric 20/Bard 9 CR - I have the book here in front of me
Those are the stats for an Avatar of Selune, not Selune. I was pretty sure faith and pantheons was clear on that.
Anyway I did a bunch more reading for ellywick and apparently she straight up introduces herself as a planeswalker and confirms herself not to be from oerth (and again she's extremely magical and does all kinds of spells, I'm not sure what sort of bard you're imagining. There's no stat block for her yet either.) so I think she's actually a character from mtg planeswalked into dnd. I don't know how I feel about that exactly but you know what why not, it's weird to be running two entirely different worlds that both have multiverses that don't run into each other somehow.
I think it's fine that minsc is a planeswalker, the whole point I was saying here is he's now been depicted in three different planes. He's a lil mascot guy everyone loves him. He's clearly getting around. Swords, not words.
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Honestly I would be floored if they did "Angel Wizard"
It’s more accurate than human wizard at least lol. Though I think they should be able to label him as Maiar wizard or just wizard. I think it depends on how the contracts work. Most licensing (if not all) are only allowed to use the actual texts of the lord of the rings and the hobbit and don’t have access to things talked about in the simirilian and other first and second age stuff without consent from the Tolkien estate. I don’t think the term is used so there is a chance he will just be a wizard lol
Gaze upon an empty, white throne
A legacy of lies,
A familiar disguise
Sing with me a song of conquest and fate
The black pillar cracks beneath its weight
Night breaks through the day, hard as a stone
Lost in thoughts all alone
I'm thinking Spirit Wizard, especially for Gandalf the White.
I could see WotC going a different route to get more chances for color coverage or have a balance less tilted towards the antagonists, but any occurrence within that system would be satisfying. There are no planeswalkers outside the MtG-verse, but if you had to pick a group of beings as planeswalkers in the LotR setting the Maiar are as good as you are going to get.
But would they put in just Gandalf the White? Gandalf the Grey is the more iconic version.
---
Okay, so I notice we're getting a bit off-topic. But to bring the two topics together, I see this latest planeswalker as an indicator that we might not get quite such a neat system, and we might very well see any member of the fellowship getting that treatment. I wouldn't like it, but I won't complain about it before it happens.
While I'm not thrilled about the pick for a planeswalker card, I can see the allure. Having an associated named animal companion really lends itself to exploration of a unique design space and they have made some use of that here. In a universe where we get this character (pair) on a planeswalker card, the card is executed well. I don't know enough about the source setting to speculate a lot on which further characters might get planeswalker cards. Is there any word on the time period of the setting? Could we get a Jon Irenicus card? Or are we going to see more focus on the recent storyline?
Either way I expect plenty of legendary creatures and a cycle of planeswalkers picked more due to name recognition than anything else.
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
Factions: Sleeping
Remnants: Valheim
Legendary Journey: Heroes & Planeswalkers
Saga: Shards of Rabiah
Legends: The Elder Dragons
Read up on Red Flags & NWO
Fear the wrath of Minsc and Boo!
Sorry to bump this but I just followed up on the dnd day thing and it looks like minsc is on the cover of spelljammer, so that dude /is/ a planeswalker now. Of the astral plane. it was weird enough when they put him in ravenloft but I guess he's a mascot now.
Again, D&D is very different to MTG in terms of planeswalking. Doesn't mean he has a 'Spark' he just needs to find virtually any Spellcaster (arcane or divine) with 7th level spells and a tuning fork to travel between planes.
So mixing the different lores is already bad, but to make random creatures into MTG planeswalker is just a "gimmick", as we already have so many planeswalkers in Magic (which are supposed to be super rare) , that the entire concept is out the window anyway.
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I mean yeah, but in the dnd mtg crossovers they're pretty specific: they're characters who cross planes, which in dnd are things like the 9 hells, the feywild, the shadowlands, and in the case of minsc now, the astral plane.
I mean the way people play dnd it feels like "oh just find a level 13 wizard" or you know a GM wants to do some fun stuff in the feywilds but really it's actually quite rare, and that's why all the planeswalkers in AFR are gods or a step down from them.
i·m interested in that
let·s talk about that
well
remember that Gandalf is a wizard
not a sorcerer
if he did·t prepare that spell that day
well
-Irini Sengir
Minsc has also been to Hell.
And you don't need to be high level to travel between planes if you know where stuff like Fey & Shadow crossings are (people enters these accidently even), outer planes are harder, but portals do exist, as do Horizon Walkers.
also which Hell(Phyrexia("Baator") , Carceri , Acheron , Gehenna , etc) are you referring to Ka
-Irini Sengir
Though if anything, just Legendary Creature - Wizard.
Or perhaps... Demi-God Wizard?
I mean right but all that is pretty rare stuff, guarded secrets by archdruids and secret clerics of shar and whatever. The vast majority of the population of the forgotten realms only reads about that stuff in books. Even horizon walkers don't get detect portal until level 3, which puts them in the 99th percentile for sapient beings. I've had this conversation a bunch of times, specifically concerning 'create food and water' which is a 3rd level spell level 5 clerics can have, so you would think that this would be a post-scarcity kind of world and starvation just wouldn't exist but actually a level five cleric is like an archbishop and there are maybe 200 of them in the entire world at any given time.
Not sure where you're getting your information from but that's just not true - the Realms is an extremely high fantasy setting, there are massively powerful characters and entities everywhere. Level 5 is relatively minor and would be easy to find a priest with 3rd level spells in any town or city. 5th edition put a 20 cap on levels for player characters but there is no such power cap for the powerful beings in Faerun and beyond, right up to the Gods themselves who sit around level 40-50 (source: Faiths & Pantheons official supplement).
Also if you think Create Food & Water poses a problem, what about a few hundred Druids (even level 1) casting Goodberry multiple times a day? Hunger solved. Though I don't ever recall reading hunger being an issue in the Realms, populations are fairly low in a resource-abundant world. The pressing issues are constant monster attacks and cataclysmic events on a egular basis I would imagine.
As to your other point about Planeswalkers, of the 4 from AFR only Bahamut is a minor deity - of the rest Mordenkainen is from Greyhawk, Gary Gygax targetted him around a level 12 Wizard but that was many years ago so we can assume he's at least levelled up to use Planeshift. Zariel is a Greater Devil from Avernus so stands to reason he has the ability. The one who is most akin to Minsc therefore would be Ellywick Tumblestrum, a new character, but defined as a bard. Bards do not have access to Planeshift (Clerics, Druids & Wiza/Sorc only) therefore she too will be reliant on others to planeswalk.
She hums an eerie tune .
-Irini Sengir
Goodberry is a busted spell tbh but also it only covers food, not water. But more to my point was that if there's no resource scarcity in your dnd setting then there's no material way for society to be unequally arranged or essentially feudalist in most settings, or else you have to come up with some explanation why some people work as serfs and other people are kings if all they need to do is take a druid level or form a community around some folks who take cleric levels and just spend all day creating food and water, let alone things like stoneshaping or magical healing. The only way it works is if these abilities are actually rare.
So consequently even in the forgotten realms the vast majority of the population is level 0, i.e. no class levels. While more powerful people are "everywhere" that's more of a case of your party running into them to make for a good story. Folks have been talking about this forever. Even if you expect a real small population of a million people on faerun or something like that (baldur's gate alone is stated to be around 100k people) the 200 or so (really probably less) named super powerful characters represent .0002% of the population. If you're just swinging a sword around you're far more likely to hit "dirt farmer number 5" than "General Atomos of the New Korellean Army, a level 6 fighter." Honestly people quibble on the specifics and you can get lost in the bbs weeds real easily by searching "average level of person on faerun", but level 5 has never been "relatively minor."
Technically gods don't have class levels, they just have various feats and stuff. Even in the earlier editions of dnd that go past level 20 by that point you don't really gain hitpoints or levels, just boons and benefits.
Ellywick's background is such that she's "the greatest bard in the multiverse" thanks to a deck of many things wish, but also specifically she's the main guide npc in their recent feywild book that came out around the same time as afr. You might say "wow she was made up to sell this book" but yes, that is all of these characters, and the feywild is another plane. Apparently she's also not from forgotten realms at all, but some other unknown world on the material plane. Her lute does magic idk. Probably has an amulet of the planes.
Mordenkainen lives in a tower that travels between the planes.
Lolth is absolutely a god.
at Pop 1,000,000,000 there·s gonna be 200,000 people that can traverse the planes that·s basically the entire city of Sigil hm i remember reading that dieties were equivalent to level 40 or 50 characters
-Irini Sengir
I disagree, Fantasy does not operate like the real world in this regard. Yes there is magic which can do wonderous things, this is either a) innate from birth, b) provided by a deity or patron or c) learned over many years, so you're correct that not everyone could just take a level in Druid and cast Goodberry. However the reason people still gather together in feudal systems is because with this amazing magic comes a host of terrible threats. People accept the rule of Kings and Lords because they are the ones that can keep them safe.
The largest city in the Realms, Waterdeep with approximately 2 million in the 15th century, and other large cities/towns all exist because people naturally flock together to keep safe. I'm not debating there are a lot of level 0 'serfs' and yes within these 2 million there will be those in poverty, as in any city, but you really think of those 2 million, a total of 4 people would count as powerful? It's high fantasy, there is power hidden in every nook and cranny and there are multiple high level clerics in every temple. Paying to bring people back from the dead is common, who is casting Raise Dead and Resurrection if the Highest priest is only level 5?
If you lower the fantasy in your own games then good for you, but that's not canon.
The last time they went through and gave stats to the full pantheon (3.5) they absolutely had levels. You mentioned Selune as an example: Wizard 20/Cleric 20/Bard 9 CR - I have the book here in front of me. If they redid God stats in 5th they'd probably just give them a CR but I doubt they'll bother, they're shifting focus to other settings.
I forgot Lolth and it's actually the only one I bothered getting! Regardless my point stands - Ellywick could be a level 30 bard, she still wouldn't have the innate ability to Planeswalk. She'd need a spell scroll, help from someone else or an artefact as you say - so by that logic why can't Minsc be a Planeswalker? There is no need for a spark, he's survived Sarevok & Jon Irenicus and has plenty of loot & powerful allies from it, so in this universe there's nothing stopping him.
Don't get me wrong I can't stand the character, he's like the bad joke that WotC still think everyone finds funny - there's so many better characters from the games: Edwin, Korgan, Anomen, Haer'Dalis - even Jan. Regardless there is no reason why he can't be a Planeswalker just like anyone else with the friends/means.
just rollin· right along
whew am i glad we caught that bug now and not in like five years
-Irini Sengir
Its a giant miniature space hamster after all.
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The characters in Baldur's Gate series tend to encapsulate the types of players found at many tables. In my 25+ years of DMing, there isn't always a Kagan, or a Viconia, or a Jan, or a Hexxat, but there is always, always a Minsc, for better or worse. He's just highly resonant with how and why many people play D&D.
now wouldn·t it
-Irini Sengir
That doesn't really track. What you would see in that case is a series of warlords and conquerors and succession would only happen through violence, no princes or royal lines. Every adventuring party that solves a quest would be a tremendous political threat to the existing structure and every town would be organized around and in service to the folks most capable of dealing violence.
You have to understand that the reason we have kings here on normal planet earth is due to the accumulation of wealth. One guy happens to have a farm and a family to run it that's big enough to feed a lot of other guys and he says "hey I'll feed you but you have to build me a house" and eventually it turns into "you have to build me a house or these guys I feed will beat you up." Some patrilineal lines and politically enforced monogamy to guarantee transfers of wealth later you have a bunch of people who are convinced that some people "own" the land and everyone else is just living on it, mainly because if you disagree they kill you.
Wealth here is defined as the power to survive, i.e. food, shelter, medicines, and so on. Gold and gems and so on aren't valuable in itself, they're just a representational medium of exchange for the aforementioned security from the elements. Without resource scarcity, if everyone can just take a druid level by bonking some goblins on the head and feeling in touch with nature about it, it becomes a lot harder to say "you have to build me a house." The closest you're going to get is a society based on "you have to build me a house or I'll let the bugbears get you" but that is not a stable or lasting society.
Assuming bugbears getting you isn't an instant or guaranteed consequence (or say you bonked enough goblins on the head that bugbears can't get you) you're far more likely to see a society that is based on free association with at best ad-hoc consensually elected leaders. You build someone a house because you like them or they're going to give you some magic trinket you're interested in or something along those lines.
It is for this reason that feudal campaign settings require some kind of resource scarcity or a rarity of skill to make any sense, or else the DM starts having to answer difficult questions about social structure, namely "why does anyone listen to the lord?" And if the answer is "because displacer beasts in the wild will get them" there are several followup questions about how that works too like "why don't they just kill all the displacer beasts" or "if there are still displacer beasts out there that the lord hasn't killed, what good are they exactly?" or "If we the party kill the displacer beasts and guarantee the safety of the people then aren't we the lords now?".
It's a lot easier to just say "yeah in order to continue to be alive they need to grow a lot of food and the lord owns this land so if they want to grow food on this land they have to get the lord's permission or the lord will kill them and to get the lord's permission they have to do stuff for the lord. Monsters are an extraneous threat compared to the kingsguard busting down your door for refusing to pay taxes."
Seriously though google it you are a dissenting voice in the estimations of a bunch of DMs.
Those are the stats for an Avatar of Selune, not Selune. I was pretty sure faith and pantheons was clear on that.
Anyway I did a bunch more reading for ellywick and apparently she straight up introduces herself as a planeswalker and confirms herself not to be from oerth (and again she's extremely magical and does all kinds of spells, I'm not sure what sort of bard you're imagining. There's no stat block for her yet either.) so I think she's actually a character from mtg planeswalked into dnd. I don't know how I feel about that exactly but you know what why not, it's weird to be running two entirely different worlds that both have multiverses that don't run into each other somehow.
I think it's fine that minsc is a planeswalker, the whole point I was saying here is he's now been depicted in three different planes. He's a lil mascot guy everyone loves him. He's clearly getting around. Swords, not words.