What demon? All the crime families have new flavourful legends that are alive.
Based on one of the key arts from the set
I’ve been wrong before. I also complained about C18 not featuring Serra and it turned out to have Arixmethes. Which we all know I adored. I’d like to be wrong about Ob killing a new character but we’ll see.
So you're complaining about something you've just assumed based on little evidence.
Right.
Well, something confirmed in the key art of the set. Visual evidence is rather compelling.
Nothing is confirmed in the art. He does seem to have beat up a guy in one of the arts. Sure. But we don't know that that is Xander in that art, in fact I suspect it's not they look a little different (there may be a number of similar-looking demons in the crime family, like Xander's immediate family even, would make sense having literal family drama here), and also they may well not be dead.
Do try not to jump to conclusions.
I'm reminded of Kaldheim where everyone was having a fit over snow not being in the set and Kaya killing Vorniclex. Those sure turned out right and no looked like an ass for not waiting to see how everything turned out before assuming what was gonna happen.
Admitting mistakes? On the internet? Who does that?
Eh I'd like people wait to see what a set/story is fully before trying to make snap judgements. It looks likely Ob kills Xander but we don't know that for sure nor what the context of what happens. Similar with people seeing during Ixalan Jace as gonna erase Vraska and being unhappy until they saw it part of a plan to make Vraska a secret double agent.
Also
You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue
“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
He looks like some suffering Jesus in a renaissance painting. The clothes on old Ob are pretty ugly though. It's a representation of the key tension in the set's flavor: it's supposed to be a fantasy game representing tropes that are very un-fantasy.
What's not fantasy about noir? Or... Suits I guess since you didn't specify what trope. Or, frankly, renaissance paintings of jesus, what's not fantasy about those?
He looks like some suffering Jesus in a renaissance painting. The clothes on old Ob are pretty ugly though. It's a representation of the key tension in the set's flavor: it's supposed to be a fantasy game representing tropes that are very un-fantasy.
What's not fantasy about noir? Or... Suits I guess since you didn't specify what trope. Or, frankly, renaissance paintings of jesus, what's not fantasy about those?
Jesus Christ is not fantasy. Show some respect. Defending a card game only to insult one of the leading worldwide faiths?
I personally don't mind the noir or advanced technology aspects in fantasy. I just don't like the implications of that key art, in which Planeswalkers override flavorful legends in the lore. It's a recurring theme that makes them feel hollow and cheap, with no obstacles or challenges. I felt the same about Tibalt defeating a god on Kaldheim, in their own domain and on their own turf. At the end of the day, it's my opinion. I don't require approval to state it. I've been critical of this ever since Gideon's surral stalled an Eldrazi titan.
He looks like some suffering Jesus in a renaissance painting. The clothes on old Ob are pretty ugly though. It's a representation of the key tension in the set's flavor: it's supposed to be a fantasy game representing tropes that are very un-fantasy.
How is it un-fantasy? It's a dramatic piece that's almost Louvre calibre that actually makes it appear MORE fantasy. It enriches the genre and it's very well done.
'buster
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'buster
HR Analyst. Gamer. Activist | Fearless, and forthright | Aggro-control is a mindset. Elspeth and Jhoira rock my world.
He looks like some suffering Jesus in a renaissance painting. The clothes on old Ob are pretty ugly though. It's a representation of the key tension in the set's flavor: it's supposed to be a fantasy game representing tropes that are very un-fantasy.
What's not fantasy about noir? Or... Suits I guess since you didn't specify what trope. Or, frankly, renaissance paintings of jesus, what's not fantasy about those?
Jesus Christ is not fantasy. Show some respect. Defending a card game only to insult one of the leading worldwide faiths?
I personally don't mind the noir or advanced technology aspects in fantasy. I just don't like the implications of that key art, in which Planeswalkers override flavorful legends in the lore. It's a recurring theme that makes them feel hollow and cheap, with no obstacles or challenges. I felt the same about Tibalt defeating a god on Kaldheim, in their own domain and on their own turf. At the end of the day, it's my opinion. I don't require approval to state it. I've been critical of this ever since Gideon's surral stalled an Eldrazi titan.
Does one need your approval to state that an ancient magical carpenter is in fantasy territory, or are your opinions the only ones that lack a permission requirement?
Is fantasy something that is inherently disrespectful? Am I supposed to pretend that I believe for your sake? Are you claiming that renaissance paintings of Jesus are biblically accurate instead of fantasy interpretations?
Very confusing hypocrisy,but ultimately not surprising considering the source.
Jesus Christ is not fantasy. Show some respect. Defending a card game only to insult one of the leading worldwide faiths?
Talking animals, resurrections, grand magical people that rule universal forces, and more definitely are all parts of fantasy. I'm not trying to insult, and I apologize if it comes out that way, but faith or not you can't look at those aspects and say "that's reality."
Jesus Christ is not fantasy. Show some respect. Defending a card game only to insult one of the leading worldwide faiths?
Talking animals, resurrections, grand magical people that rule universal forces, and more definitely are all parts of fantasy. I'm not trying to insult, and I apologize if it comes out that way, but faith or not you can't look at those aspects and say "that's reality."
While the New Testament may not be a reliable historical source, "fantasy" is certainly not the correct word. By its nature as a work of religious importance, it would more accurately be classified a "myth," but I'd suggest "religious text" as the most diplomatic terminology. Call it political correctness if you want, but there's no need to deliberately choose the terminology that will piss people off.
Buuut, that's way off topic and I would guess that that is indeed Xander in that image, but the image doesn't really indicate Xander's death. It would be questionable art direction to include another character who looks and dresses just like the crime boss, unless it's some kind of Comedy of Errors.
The guy Ob Nixilis is holding has a full beard, as opposed to the chinstrap depicted in (what is presumably) Xander's art. Additionally, he lacks the claws, golden ornamentation, and is wearing a completely different coat. It's possible for art of the same character to look different between cards, but given that the Ob Nixilis art looks like it's going to be his card art, I think the dude is just there for imagery's sake.
And it is definitely referencing Christian art, with the body's posing very akin to the Pietà, The Deposition, or The Dead Christ Mourned. This seems like the simplest way to get something similar to the Baptism scene from The Godfather, which is probably where a lot of the tone is going to be pulled from.
Edit: The "dead" guy is also missing the "central" horns.
I personally don't mind the noir or advanced technology aspects in fantasy. I just don't like the implications of that key art, in which Planeswalkers override flavorful legends in the lore. It's a recurring theme that makes them feel hollow and cheap, with no obstacles or challenges. I felt the same about Tibalt defeating a god on Kaldheim, in their own domain and on their own turf. At the end of the day, it's my opinion. I don't require approval to state it. I've been critical of this ever since Gideon's surral stalled an Eldrazi titan.
Demon-on-demon violence where the former oldwalker wins? Of all the recent examples of planeswalkers winning, this might be the most acceptable.
The guy Ob Nixilis is holding has a full beard, as opposed to the chinstrap depicted in (what is presumably) Xander's art. Additionally, he lacks the claws, golden ornamentation, and is wearing a completely different coat. It's possible for art of the same character to look different between cards, but given that the Ob Nixilis art looks like it's going to be his card art, I think the dude is just there for imagery's sake.
And it is definitely referencing Christian art, with the body's posing very akin to the Pietà, The Deposition, or The Dead Christ Mourned. This seems like the simplest way to get something similar to the Baptism scene from The Godfather, which is probably where a lot of the tone is going to be pulled from.
Edit: The "dead" guy is also missing the "central" horns.
Could be a relative and/or a very bad way for Don Xander to fake his death.
Jesus Christ is not fantasy. Show some respect. Defending a card game only to insult one of the leading worldwide faiths?
Talking animals, resurrections, grand magical people that rule universal forces, and more definitely are all parts of fantasy. I'm not trying to insult, and I apologize if it comes out that way, but faith or not you can't look at those aspects and say "that's reality."
Faith is the requisite to believing it was reality. You're welcome to lack that, if you wish, but don't fault or insult those of us who don't.
I personally don't mind the noir or advanced technology aspects in fantasy. I just don't like the implications of that key art, in which Planeswalkers override flavorful legends in the lore. It's a recurring theme that makes them feel hollow and cheap, with no obstacles or challenges. I felt the same about Tibalt defeating a god on Kaldheim, in their own domain and on their own turf. At the end of the day, it's my opinion. I don't require approval to state it. I've been critical of this ever since Gideon's surral stalled an Eldrazi titan.
Demon-on-demon violence where the former oldwalker wins? Of all the recent examples of planeswalkers winning, this might be the most acceptable.
That's probably valid. I'm sensitive to it after a long list of examples that were not.
Religion? Politics? Nothing is too irrelevant to start arguments about on a Magic: the Gathering website for some. There are appropriate forums to argue that Christian mythology is real but I'm pretty sure this isn't one of them.
It looks like Xander to me in the pic of Ob and the demon. Whether he's dead or not is unknown. I'd like to see Xander be alive and get to know him instead of just being cannon fodder that's immediately dead before he matters. We'll see what happens.
The guy Ob Nixilis is holding has a full beard, as opposed to the chinstrap depicted in (what is presumably) Xander's art. Additionally, he lacks the claws, golden ornamentation, and is wearing a completely different coat. It's possible for art of the same character to look different between cards, but given that the Ob Nixilis art looks like it's going to be his card art, I think the dude is just there for imagery's sake.
And it is definitely referencing Christian art, with the body's posing very akin to the Pietà, The Deposition, or The Dead Christ Mourned. This seems like the simplest way to get something similar to the Baptism scene from The Godfather, which is probably where a lot of the tone is going to be pulled from.
Edit: The "dead" guy is also missing the "central" horns.
I think the horn you can see behind the big one is the left middle one. The facial hair and the fingernails are different, but I think the coat is the same and he's got the necklace. Gotta remember it was two artists given the same reference material. Who knows if the concept art was super clear about how long his nails were and precisely how far up his lip his facial hair extends.
The necklace on the dead guy is just a diamond shape, not cut in any capacity like the one Xander is wearing (Though due to size, I'm willing to buy that's just for simplicity sake). But he is missing the gold collar that Xander is wearing. The coat has similarities but isn't the same. Xander's is two-tone, with the fur around his neck being attached to a shawl like segment of the coat, while the dead guy's is monochromatic on the outside with just a fur lining around the collar.
And yes, I remember it was two artists given the same reference material. I said as much in my post ; p ("It's possible for art of the same character to look different between cards...")
I'm not quite seeing the issue with Ob Nixilis beating this one demon, important or not, down. We don't really know how important this character is outside of being a leader, nor do we know how long they have ruled or how powerful they are. Yes, Magic still may not have shed the Gatewatch anime sturdiness and some of the other absolutely dumb plot armor, but this seems really early to start worrying about this when we know next to nothing of the person he beats.
Faith is the requisite to believing it was reality. You're welcome to lack that, if you wish, but don't fault or insult those of us who don't.
Neat, but this has nothing to do belief, but instead calling various aspects for what they are, and they are absolutely fantasy. Doesn't matter if they are in faith, book, or card game if you see magical things/places/animals doing magical things then it is by very fact fantasy. If you choose to believe in those aspects that's great, good for you and I won't stop you, but if someone calls it for what it is and you get upset by that then that's a you problem.
He looks like some suffering Jesus in a renaissance painting. The clothes on old Ob are pretty ugly though. It's a representation of the key tension in the set's flavor: it's supposed to be a fantasy game representing tropes that are very un-fantasy.
What's not fantasy about noir? Or... Suits I guess since you didn't specify what trope. Or, frankly, renaissance paintings of jesus, what's not fantasy about those?
To clarify, I love the renaissance style. I think the depiction of the fallen demon is just divine.
What I meant is indeed that noir is pretty far apart from fantasy. It's a direct reflection of the 20th century, and indeed a specific moment in the 20th century. It's a film genre for one thing. And one that stresses realism. Fantasy tropes can be applied to any setting, but sometimes it clashes more than others. Heck we're getting fantasy in space in unfinity, so it's not that crazy. But the tension is still there.
But yeah, I think the pinstripe suits that are also armor and made for demons are pretty ugly, and I don't really like the aesthetic. That's an art direction critique, not a critique on the art. And it's just an opinion.
Did I start people going on about religion or something? I was just talking about renaissance painting style which clearly influenced this image. This isn't the place for that kind of discussion, and no disrespect was intended. If anything I was complimenting the artist on a figure with exceptional anatomical detail and expression of character which harkens to a renaissance painting. And commenting that I think elements of the art direction clash with the better aspects of the image. Ob is ugly, and the other demon (Xander or not) is rendered beautifully.
What I meant is indeed that noir is pretty far apart from fantasy. It's a direct reflection of the 20th century, and indeed a specific moment in the 20th century. It's a film genre for one thing. And one that stresses realism. Fantasy tropes can be applied to any setting, but sometimes it clashes more than others. Heck we're getting fantasy in space in unfinity, so it's not that crazy. But the tension is still there.
Fantasy as a genre is weird in that really it doesn't have much rules or tropes to it except "does this setting have paranormal/supernatural/magical elements that are a core feature?". I get what you mean in it not being what we think of traditional fantasy but i don't think it really clashes, just hasn't been that mainstream compared to the more Tolkien fantasy we see.
“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
I want to clarify: I have no problem with christianity, but renaissance paintings of jesus were very much in the realm of fanfic and open to the broad interpretation of the many many Italians painting him, whether it was putting him and others in contemporary clothing, depicting him as pale and northern, or depicting the events of his life in impressionistic ways. Folks were imagining a very different jesus than the jesus that was in the bible.
What I meant is indeed that noir is pretty far apart from fantasy. It's a direct reflection of the 20th century, and indeed a specific moment in the 20th century. It's a film genre for one thing. And one that stresses realism. Fantasy tropes can be applied to any setting, but sometimes it clashes more than others. Heck we're getting fantasy in space in unfinity, so it's not that crazy. But the tension is still there.
I mean I think noir is more of a directorial/plot style that is usually applied to crime mysteries, I'm not sure there's anything realist about it. They do tend to be cyncial and have a poor opinion of the moral failings of mankind if that's what you're thinking of. But also noir always has some elements of the fantastical, since the plots operate on an extreme level of coincidence and mystery. Some of the better noir stuff acknowledges the supernatural, whether it's divine intervention or pure luck.
I don't think plot details or even genre are necessarily any particular thing. I would say the movie Brick, about a modernish high school drug deal, Who Framed Roger Rabbit, about cartoon people, and the first couple of dresden files books all qualify as noir.
I'm curious if these SL cometic changes list cards are only going to be in New Capenna set boosters or other boosters going forward as well, like CLB set boosters list cards?
I'm curious if these SL cometic changes list cards are only going to be in New Capenna set boosters or other boosters going forward as well, like CLB set boosters list cards?
They said "as long as players are still interested in opening them," which probably means at least 2 sets just because it would take that long to get feedback.
Nothing is confirmed in the art. He does seem to have beat up a guy in one of the arts. Sure. But we don't know that that is Xander in that art, in fact I suspect it's not they look a little different (there may be a number of similar-looking demons in the crime family, like Xander's immediate family even, would make sense having literal family drama here), and also they may well not be dead.
Do try not to jump to conclusions.
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Eh I'd like people wait to see what a set/story is fully before trying to make snap judgements. It looks likely Ob kills Xander but we don't know that for sure nor what the context of what happens. Similar with people seeing during Ixalan Jace as gonna erase Vraska and being unhappy until they saw it part of a plan to make Vraska a secret double agent.
Also
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
What's not fantasy about noir? Or... Suits I guess since you didn't specify what trope. Or, frankly, renaissance paintings of jesus, what's not fantasy about those?
I personally don't mind the noir or advanced technology aspects in fantasy. I just don't like the implications of that key art, in which Planeswalkers override flavorful legends in the lore. It's a recurring theme that makes them feel hollow and cheap, with no obstacles or challenges. I felt the same about Tibalt defeating a god on Kaldheim, in their own domain and on their own turf. At the end of the day, it's my opinion. I don't require approval to state it. I've been critical of this ever since Gideon's surral stalled an Eldrazi titan.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
How is it un-fantasy? It's a dramatic piece that's almost Louvre calibre that actually makes it appear MORE fantasy. It enriches the genre and it's very well done.
'buster
HR Analyst. Gamer. Activist | Fearless, and forthright | Aggro-control is a mindset.
Elspeth and Jhoira rock my world.
Does one need your approval to state that an ancient magical carpenter is in fantasy territory, or are your opinions the only ones that lack a permission requirement?
Is fantasy something that is inherently disrespectful? Am I supposed to pretend that I believe for your sake? Are you claiming that renaissance paintings of Jesus are biblically accurate instead of fantasy interpretations?
Very confusing hypocrisy,but ultimately not surprising considering the source.
Talking animals, resurrections, grand magical people that rule universal forces, and more definitely are all parts of fantasy. I'm not trying to insult, and I apologize if it comes out that way, but faith or not you can't look at those aspects and say "that's reality."
While the New Testament may not be a reliable historical source, "fantasy" is certainly not the correct word. By its nature as a work of religious importance, it would more accurately be classified a "myth," but I'd suggest "religious text" as the most diplomatic terminology. Call it political correctness if you want, but there's no need to deliberately choose the terminology that will piss people off.
Buuut, that's way off topic and I would guess that that is indeed Xander in that image, but the image doesn't really indicate Xander's death. It would be questionable art direction to include another character who looks and dresses just like the crime boss, unless it's some kind of Comedy of Errors.
The guy Ob Nixilis is holding has a full beard, as opposed to the chinstrap depicted in (what is presumably) Xander's art. Additionally, he lacks the claws, golden ornamentation, and is wearing a completely different coat. It's possible for art of the same character to look different between cards, but given that the Ob Nixilis art looks like it's going to be his card art, I think the dude is just there for imagery's sake.
And it is definitely referencing Christian art, with the body's posing very akin to the Pietà, The Deposition, or The Dead Christ Mourned. This seems like the simplest way to get something similar to the Baptism scene from The Godfather, which is probably where a lot of the tone is going to be pulled from.
Edit: The "dead" guy is also missing the "central" horns.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
It looks like Xander to me in the pic of Ob and the demon. Whether he's dead or not is unknown. I'd like to see Xander be alive and get to know him instead of just being cannon fodder that's immediately dead before he matters. We'll see what happens.
I think the horn you can see behind the big one is the left middle one. The facial hair and the fingernails are different, but I think the coat is the same and he's got the necklace. Gotta remember it was two artists given the same reference material. Who knows if the concept art was super clear about how long his nails were and precisely how far up his lip his facial hair extends.
And yes, I remember it was two artists given the same reference material. I said as much in my post ; p ("It's possible for art of the same character to look different between cards...")
Neat, but this has nothing to do belief, but instead calling various aspects for what they are, and they are absolutely fantasy. Doesn't matter if they are in faith, book, or card game if you see magical things/places/animals doing magical things then it is by very fact fantasy. If you choose to believe in those aspects that's great, good for you and I won't stop you, but if someone calls it for what it is and you get upset by that then that's a you problem.
What I meant is indeed that noir is pretty far apart from fantasy. It's a direct reflection of the 20th century, and indeed a specific moment in the 20th century. It's a film genre for one thing. And one that stresses realism. Fantasy tropes can be applied to any setting, but sometimes it clashes more than others. Heck we're getting fantasy in space in unfinity, so it's not that crazy. But the tension is still there.
But yeah, I think the pinstripe suits that are also armor and made for demons are pretty ugly, and I don't really like the aesthetic. That's an art direction critique, not a critique on the art. And it's just an opinion.
Did I start people going on about religion or something? I was just talking about renaissance painting style which clearly influenced this image. This isn't the place for that kind of discussion, and no disrespect was intended. If anything I was complimenting the artist on a figure with exceptional anatomical detail and expression of character which harkens to a renaissance painting. And commenting that I think elements of the art direction clash with the better aspects of the image. Ob is ugly, and the other demon (Xander or not) is rendered beautifully.
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Fantastic Noir is a thing so its really not that unheard of;
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FantasticNoir
Fantasy as a genre is weird in that really it doesn't have much rules or tropes to it except "does this setting have paranormal/supernatural/magical elements that are a core feature?". I get what you mean in it not being what we think of traditional fantasy but i don't think it really clashes, just hasn't been that mainstream compared to the more Tolkien fantasy we see.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
I mean I think noir is more of a directorial/plot style that is usually applied to crime mysteries, I'm not sure there's anything realist about it. They do tend to be cyncial and have a poor opinion of the moral failings of mankind if that's what you're thinking of. But also noir always has some elements of the fantastical, since the plots operate on an extreme level of coincidence and mystery. Some of the better noir stuff acknowledges the supernatural, whether it's divine intervention or pure luck.
I don't think plot details or even genre are necessarily any particular thing. I would say the movie Brick, about a modernish high school drug deal, Who Framed Roger Rabbit, about cartoon people, and the first couple of dresden files books all qualify as noir.
They said "as long as players are still interested in opening them," which probably means at least 2 sets just because it would take that long to get feedback.
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/secret-lair-universes-beyond-update-2021-06-07