I think emrakul is immune to being compleated I feel she will eventually leave and go resurrect ulamog and kozilek (or reincarnations) and the 3 of them destroy the phyrexians
and honest truth besides Urabrask I don't think it will just be him who throws a wrench at their plans and betray them.
I’m starting to highly consider tezzeret betrays them and not for his selfish reasons
If you look on further inspection of the epilogue by choice of words in the story tezzeret was looking extremely unconfortable looking at tamiyo as a phyrexian.
he may have been watching from a distance jin gitaxias ripping out nearly every bit of flesh and replacing with robotic parts (which is compleating her) he probably never knew phyrexians do this horrendous thing and probably didn't know what type of stuff they do to people
So the shorten version he may be saying in his head “what have I done.”
I'm growing sick of Tez as a recurring also-ran second fiddle villain - each iteration of him has been interesting but it is feeling very repetitive at this point. Who will his new boss be next? It's becoming hard to take him seriously.
I'm thinking it would be very fitting story-wise for the Phyrexians to turn on him once he's outlived his usefulness - which might be extremely soon, now that they have Tamiyo. I would expect them to start to experiment on him, maybe turn him into the next version of their compleated planeswalkers or something else. Or just dissect him for parts. An all-black "zombie Tezz" would be neat.
It would be interesting if Tamiyo's link to Emrakul ends up being the Phyrexian's undoing.
Also, I wonder if her being compleated is related to the repercussions of the scroll she was forced to recite on Innistrad to seal Emrakul (which originally lead to the fall of a plane)
... which may all be part of Emrakul's plan for Phyrexia after all...
As a Jace fanboy, I've read the Ari Marmell novel more times than Jace has seen printings and can tell you that he's definitely a complex character. I can totally get the Jace fatigue, especially since his se ond printing saw EXTENSIVE play across multiple formats and continues to be a high value card for that reason. I actually want to see more of Jace because I currently have a Jace Tribal deck that I would love to have more options for. But that said, I definitely have to say that the lore is there for Jace, he's not just some poster child that's been paraded around the front of Magic for years. I actually liked the tidbit about Jace's face tattoos having been done by Domri Rade when he first planeswalked to Ravnica after he Vegetabled Alhammaret on Vryn, to remind him of his home plane that he could never return to and then he mind-wiped himself.
But yeah, just had to stick this out here for my boy Jace.
Super minor thing, but it wasn't Domri Rade, just a Gruul Shaman. Domri probably wasn't even alive when Jace got his tattoos.
I will have to defer to you. I have perused the stories and can't find the instance I was thinking of. Memory is funny like that. Either WotC used Domri as a reference image and Id assumed or I misread where it talked about Jace as a Teenager as though the Gruul Shaman was the Teenager, fitting Domri's description. Either way, I appear to be incorrect on this. Kudos!
I think she is high value, but also I think she's probably the character most likely to avoid even coming near phyrexians.
I think the entire point of PW compleation going forward is that PWs can no longer keep away from Phyrexia. If Phyrexians want Nissa, they're going to go after her. She can't really avoid them, particularly in her case, because she won't abandon Zendikar.
So first of all, with the Emerakul and Phyrexia stuff let's remember that if that does happen, we could lose Innistrad as we know it in the process. And so, I have to ask, would WOTC sacrifice one of their Golden Geese for this?
Story wise, Planeswalkers being turned needs to be fleshed out and properly handled as it has the potential to create new serious plot holes.
Also again this relies on the writers but even in old school Phyrexians there were individuals that were unique and interesting beyond just being phyrexian. For example there was Belbe, a Phyrexian who not only fell in love with a human but also became curious of her origins and eventually saved the father of the person that had been used to create her even to her own detriment. And even after her death, her lover after being completed himself retrieved a memento to remember her by.
So, Tamiyo could still retain a lot of what makes her, her. Hopefully the writers take the time to acknowledge this and not write phyrexians like they are a flipping Borg rip off that only have "completion" on their minds.
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Never forget whose grace and favor led to your success and always give your thanks, otherwise you might be doomed to loose it.
I'm not terribly pissed it was Tamiyo, I just hope they don't resolve it in a boring way.
AKA: OH Gideon comes back for 5 minutes to save her! Praise Jesus!
Or: Turns out Lilliana's powers now work on phyrexians! For reasons!
Or: And then Kaya offed her offscreen because we had no idea where our writing was going!
I'm mostly irritated by the Compleation mechanic not applying to all of her colored mana costs. Yes, it would potentially put her at -1 loyalty. I'm sure there's some shenanigans in game already to handle that. Paying 2 life for 2 less counters and her being 1 mana cheaper really isn't much of a discount.
I do agree there would have been better characters to do this to though, or at least a little build up with a "Previously Unknown Walker" who is compleated.
The only problem with your suggestion of a previously unknown waller being Compleated would be that noone would care beyond the "oh, that happened." The fact that it's happening to a character that we've had around, that has helped the Gatewatch with Plane-shattering problems now succumb to one of the most ancient evils the Blind Eternities has had matters more. And if you take their current cast of Walkers on Kamigawa, Tamiyo is the one that makes the most sense.
Yeah but now we're going back to the shock value. Here's an idea: Use it to bring back Venser. We get the return of a loved character, brought back to life by good old undead phyrexian shenanigans, and the shock of "oh no phyrexians have walkers!" still sticks.
Or, lets power up a phyrexian! When Glissa planeswalks into the room, we all know stuff just got real.
(please pass on any "that character is dead!" arguments, these are Phyrexians we're talking about here)
The fact that Tamiyo is tied to Kamigawa is about as relevant as the fact that Nicol Bolas is tied to Kamigawa. "Tied to Kamigawa" and "caring" is a matter of good writing something MTG as a whole has been lacking for nearly a decade.
The further more irritating element to me is that it they really wanted IMPACT, they could have hit Jace, or Liliana, or Chandra or Ajani, but that would mean MASSIVE changes for what is basically less of a character and more of a product. Tamiyo was picked because she's important enough to matter, but not important enough to make a real impact on the story. Which again, goes back to my point about bad writing. This is a product decision and nothing more.
Which is, again, why I'm not terribly irritated over the choice. Its not bad for story reasons, current MTG story is the pits. It's just kinda lame for marketing reasons. Like when Gideon sacrified himself for Lilly. The MTG marketing guys know Lilly has more marketing sway, so she lived. Ultimately Tamiyo getting compleated isn't really going to make a difference one way or the other.
The further more irritating element to me is that it they really wanted IMPACT, they could have hit Jace, or Liliana, or Chandra or Ajani, but that would mean MASSIVE changes for what is basically less of a character and more of a product. Tamiyo was picked because she's important enough to matter, but not important enough to make a real impact on the story. Which again, goes back to my point about bad writing. This is a product decision and nothing more.
Which is, again, why I'm not terribly irritated over the choice. Its not bad for story reasons, current MTG story is the pits. It's just kinda lame for marketing reasons. Like when Gideon sacrified himself for Lilly. The MTG marketing guys know Lilly has more marketing sway, so she lived. Ultimately Tamiyo getting compleated isn't really going to make a difference one way or the other.
Pretty much my thoughts right here. If they really wanted a big twist with a lot of impact, they should have chosen Jace or any other of the "main cast" PWs and maybe build it up over a longer period of time. But that would've meant losing one of their marketing poster characters - so they went with the niche character beloved by a small minority of players to make it feel like they just did something big. It's a cop-out, really.
Pretty much the only meaning Tamiyo's compleation has is that other, more important characters are now at risk of becoming phyrexianized as well - but they won't. This story development lacks impact beyond the initial shock value, bascially just functioning as an in-universe "Phyrexia is coming back, yo" teaser.
The further more irritating element to me is that it they really wanted IMPACT, they could have hit Jace, or Liliana, or Chandra or Ajani, but that would mean MASSIVE changes for what is basically less of a character and more of a product. Tamiyo was picked because she's important enough to matter, but not important enough to make a real impact on the story. Which again, goes back to my point about bad writing. This is a product decision and nothing more.
Which is, again, why I'm not terribly irritated over the choice. Its not bad for story reasons, current MTG story is the pits. It's just kinda lame for marketing reasons. Like when Gideon sacrified himself for Lilly. The MTG marketing guys know Lilly has more marketing sway, so she lived. Ultimately Tamiyo getting compleated isn't really going to make a difference one way or the other.
Pretty much my thoughts right here. If they really wanted a big twist with a lot of impact, they should have chosen Jace or any other of the "main cast" PWs and maybe build it up over a longer period of time. But that would've meant losing one of their marketing poster characters - so they went with the niche character beloved by a small minority of players to make it feel like they just did something big. It's a cop-out, really.
Pretty much the only meaning Tamiyo's compleation has is that other, more important characters are now at risk of becoming phyrexianized as well - but they won't. This story development lacks impact beyond the initial shock value, bascially just functioning as an in-universe "Phyrexia is coming back, yo" teaser.
Yep, and thats really the worst of it. Compleated b-list characters could make for an interesting turn since we've got this more "free thought but evil" Neo-Phyrexia, how do they affect Phyrexia, how does that alter its approaches and goals, how do the power-plays pan out? Maybe Tezzy finally gets his butt kicked out of the Phyrexia circle by Evil Tamiyo who actually ya know, moves Phyrexia in an interesting direction. Maybe she subverts Jin as the Blue Praetor.
But....most likely not. By compleating a b-lister all it really does is raise the stakes for the main crew and now they need to "get serious" about Phyrexia (which, ya know, everyone who knew two licks about Phyrexia told them). Lets not even get into the bad writing tropes of how it's often a female character and how so very often female characters are thrown into the meat grinder to motivate male leads.
And so help me if this gets turned into a Tezzy redemption arc I swear I might just burn my decks.
I'm not terribly pissed it was Tamiyo, I just hope they don't resolve it in a boring way.
AKA: OH Gideon comes back for 5 minutes to save her! Praise Jesus!
Or: Turns out Lilliana's powers now work on phyrexians! For reasons!
Or: And then Kaya offed her offscreen because we had no idea where our writing was going!
I'm mostly irritated by the Compleation mechanic not applying to all of her colored mana costs. Yes, it would potentially put her at -1 loyalty. I'm sure there's some shenanigans in game already to handle that. Paying 2 life for 2 less counters and her being 1 mana cheaper really isn't much of a discount.
I do agree there would have been better characters to do this to though, or at least a little build up with a "Previously Unknown Walker" who is compleated.
The only problem with your suggestion of a previously unknown waller being Compleated would be that noone would care beyond the "oh, that happened." The fact that it's happening to a character that we've had around, that has helped the Gatewatch with Plane-shattering problems now succumb to one of the most ancient evils the Blind Eternities has had matters more. And if you take their current cast of Walkers on Kamigawa, Tamiyo is the one that makes the most sense.
Yeah but now we're going back to the shock value. Here's an idea: Use it to bring back Venser. We get the return of a loved character, brought back to life by good old undead phyrexian shenanigans, and the shock of "oh no phyrexians have walkers!" still sticks.
Except Venser's corpse doesn't have his spark (Karn has it) and isn't even on New Phyrexia anymore.
I just wish it was a different PW. Although Jace is my favorite, I always felt Tamiyo was a close second to being the most interesting. Perhaps the most interesting. She had a lot going for her as a character, enough that many, myself included, were hoping just to see her in the set, let alone the story. But this is not how I wanted the latter case to come about
"Remember the legendary creatures leading the guilds? Half of them get killed of to get replaced by planeswalkers." wasn't that popular a move that I want them to repeat it in every power structure we have, to be honest.
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Planar Chaos was not a mistake neither was it random. You might want to look at it again.
[thread=239793][Game] Level Up - Creature[/thread]
"Remember the legendary creatures leading the guilds? Half of them get killed of to get replaced by planeswalkers." wasn't that popular a move that I want them to repeat it in every power structure we have, to be honest.
My point is just "Do something interesting and meaningful with this." The specific examples were just off-the-cuff thoughts on where it could go.
Shock value alone doesn't count for much.
Except Venser's corpse doesn't have his spark (Karn has it) and isn't even on New Phyrexia anymore.
Okay so...lets say clone secret agent (Phyrexians have done this before), with someone else's spark(some unnamed walker we don't care about). Everyone is all OMG Venser is back like whaaaa???? and then ya know, turns out to be a secret sleeper phyrexian.
I'm not saying these are the greatest ideas, only that now that MTG has opened up the gates to "phyrexians with souls" and therefore "phyrexian walkers" there's a lot of room to play with this beyond "oh they killed someone we kinda care about but noone who will really change the product sales."
"Remember the legendary creatures leading the guilds? Half of them get killed of to get replaced by planeswalkers." wasn't that popular a move that I want them to repeat it in every power structure we have, to be honest.
My point is just "Do something interesting and meaningful with this." The specific examples were just off-the-cuff thoughts on where it could go.
Shock value alone doesn't count for much.
Except Venser's corpse doesn't have his spark (Karn has it) and isn't even on New Phyrexia anymore.
Okay so...lets say clone secret agent (Phyrexians have done this before), with someone else's spark(some unnamed walker we don't care about). Everyone is all OMG Venser is back like whaaaa???? and then ya know, turns out to be a secret sleeper phyrexian.
I'm not saying these are the greatest ideas, only that now that MTG has opened up the gates to "phyrexians with souls" and therefore "phyrexian walkers" there's a lot of room to play with this beyond "oh they killed someone we kinda care about but no one who will really change the product sales."
I don't think "killing someone who might affect product sales" is "good" writing.
Here's what I think affects this more than "product sales:" the phyrexian storyline is still not built up. We're clearly not getting a phyrexia set this year, and I wouldn't be shocked at the pace they're going with it that we don't see it until 2024. What we are getting is a kamigawa set, and we do have a prominent planeswalker from kamigawa. So to move the story forward and as they've been ramping up the involvement of phyrexia (from tezzeret doing some stuff on kaladesh to a bit of oil on ixalan to whatever was going on in kaldheim to now) on other planes she ended up as the first victim. There's no one else on kamigawa who has any kind of background and we're fresh off a set where the gatewatch were called in to go help fight some stuff.
They've also basically backgrounded the old gatewatch. Jace is no longer the poster boy for magic and hasn't been since ixalan, Gideon is dead, liliana is pretending to be a different person, Nissa is off edgelording Zendikar, Chandra is just showing up in stuff for unclear reasons all the time. While I do think the gatewatch will be involved at some point, war of the spark was supposed to be their big Avengers (2012) moment and it landed with a wet thud, so the "main cast" of magic has moved around quite a lot. We're getting a ton of new planeswalkers in the story while going through plot arcs for folks like Elspeth or Teferi or Kaya who were never really part of that big main five.
That said the next person to be compleated is definitely gonna be Chandra and folks are going to be /so/ mad about it.
Just some more random thoughts...they kind of had to do this didn't they? There were no stakes for a final battle...Karn and co just show up with their big bomb and peace out...now there's a rescue mission involved too...and almost certainly more than one, as they created a new keyword for Compleated walkers.
[quote from="Rainbow Sun »" url="/forums/magic-fundamentals/the-rumor-mill/825225-neo-phyrexian-tamiyo?comment=89"]
I don't think "killing someone who might affect product sales" is "good" writing.
Here's what I think affects this more than "product sales:" the phyrexian storyline is still not built up. We're clearly not getting a phyrexia set this year, and I wouldn't be shocked at the pace they're going with it that we don't see it until 2024. What we are getting is a kamigawa set, and we do have a prominent planeswalker from kamigawa. So to move the story forward and as they've been ramping up the involvement of phyrexia (from tezzeret doing some stuff on kaladesh to a bit of oil on ixalan to whatever was going on in kaldheim to now) on other plains she ended up as the first victim. There's no one else on kamigawa who has any kind of background and we're fresh off a set where the gatewatch were called in to go help fight some stuff.
…
I agree, it seems like they are establishing a pattern with Vorinclex in Kaldheim and Jin-Gitaxias in Kamigawa where every winter/early spring set will have a surprise praetor or some other reference to New Phyrexia. Which probably means that the actual return to New Phyrexia (or new phyrexia doing a full-on invasion of a different plane) is a few years off.
If I had to guess, the upcoming Brothers’ War set is being done more or less because WotC wants to return to the first storyline where Phyrexia was introduced to introduce new players to the phyrexians and lay the groundwork for Phyrexia’s return as the game’s central villain.
If I had to guess, the upcoming Brothers’ War set is being done more or less because WotC wants to return to the first storyline where Phyrexia was introduced to introduce new players to the phyrexians and lay the groundwork for Phyrexia’s return as the game’s central villain.
Iirc they also said originally the Brother War was slotted to be released in 2023 to go along with magic 30th anniversary and while tad early its being used to herald what they got planned for in 2023.
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Yeah, she's my favorite too, and while it wouldn't surprise me if they killed her off or worse in an ignoble way, it would be extremely infuriating since they already got Tamiyo.
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I'm growing sick of Tez as a recurring also-ran second fiddle villain - each iteration of him has been interesting but it is feeling very repetitive at this point. Who will his new boss be next? It's becoming hard to take him seriously.
I'm thinking it would be very fitting story-wise for the Phyrexians to turn on him once he's outlived his usefulness - which might be extremely soon, now that they have Tamiyo. I would expect them to start to experiment on him, maybe turn him into the next version of their compleated planeswalkers or something else. Or just dissect him for parts. An all-black "zombie Tezz" would be neat.
Also, I wonder if her being compleated is related to the repercussions of the scroll she was forced to recite on Innistrad to seal Emrakul (which originally lead to the fall of a plane)
... which may all be part of Emrakul's plan for Phyrexia after all...
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
I will have to defer to you. I have perused the stories and can't find the instance I was thinking of. Memory is funny like that. Either WotC used Domri as a reference image and Id assumed or I misread where it talked about Jace as a Teenager as though the Gruul Shaman was the Teenager, fitting Domri's description. Either way, I appear to be incorrect on this. Kudos!
I think the entire point of PW compleation going forward is that PWs can no longer keep away from Phyrexia. If Phyrexians want Nissa, they're going to go after her. She can't really avoid them, particularly in her case, because she won't abandon Zendikar.
Story wise, Planeswalkers being turned needs to be fleshed out and properly handled as it has the potential to create new serious plot holes.
Also again this relies on the writers but even in old school Phyrexians there were individuals that were unique and interesting beyond just being phyrexian. For example there was Belbe, a Phyrexian who not only fell in love with a human but also became curious of her origins and eventually saved the father of the person that had been used to create her even to her own detriment. And even after her death, her lover after being completed himself retrieved a memento to remember her by.
So, Tamiyo could still retain a lot of what makes her, her. Hopefully the writers take the time to acknowledge this and not write phyrexians like they are a flipping Borg rip off that only have "completion" on their minds.
Yeah but now we're going back to the shock value. Here's an idea: Use it to bring back Venser. We get the return of a loved character, brought back to life by good old undead phyrexian shenanigans, and the shock of "oh no phyrexians have walkers!" still sticks.
Or, lets power up a phyrexian! When Glissa planeswalks into the room, we all know stuff just got real.
(please pass on any "that character is dead!" arguments, these are Phyrexians we're talking about here)
The fact that Tamiyo is tied to Kamigawa is about as relevant as the fact that Nicol Bolas is tied to Kamigawa. "Tied to Kamigawa" and "caring" is a matter of good writing something MTG as a whole has been lacking for nearly a decade.
The further more irritating element to me is that it they really wanted IMPACT, they could have hit Jace, or Liliana, or Chandra or Ajani, but that would mean MASSIVE changes for what is basically less of a character and more of a product. Tamiyo was picked because she's important enough to matter, but not important enough to make a real impact on the story. Which again, goes back to my point about bad writing. This is a product decision and nothing more.
Which is, again, why I'm not terribly irritated over the choice. Its not bad for story reasons, current MTG story is the pits. It's just kinda lame for marketing reasons. Like when Gideon sacrified himself for Lilly. The MTG marketing guys know Lilly has more marketing sway, so she lived. Ultimately Tamiyo getting compleated isn't really going to make a difference one way or the other.
Pretty much the only meaning Tamiyo's compleation has is that other, more important characters are now at risk of becoming phyrexianized as well - but they won't. This story development lacks impact beyond the initial shock value, bascially just functioning as an in-universe "Phyrexia is coming back, yo" teaser.
Yep, and thats really the worst of it. Compleated b-list characters could make for an interesting turn since we've got this more "free thought but evil" Neo-Phyrexia, how do they affect Phyrexia, how does that alter its approaches and goals, how do the power-plays pan out? Maybe Tezzy finally gets his butt kicked out of the Phyrexia circle by Evil Tamiyo who actually ya know, moves Phyrexia in an interesting direction. Maybe she subverts Jin as the Blue Praetor.
But....most likely not. By compleating a b-lister all it really does is raise the stakes for the main crew and now they need to "get serious" about Phyrexia (which, ya know, everyone who knew two licks about Phyrexia told them). Lets not even get into the bad writing tropes of how it's often a female character and how so very often female characters are thrown into the meat grinder to motivate male leads.
And so help me if this gets turned into a Tezzy redemption arc I swear I might just burn my decks.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
Bringing back a character that has died a meaningful death, is not exactly as shocking as affecting a character during their spotlight episode.
It's reducing the impact of death.
"Remember the legendary creatures leading the guilds? Half of them get killed of to get replaced by planeswalkers." wasn't that popular a move that I want them to repeat it in every power structure we have, to be honest.
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
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My point is just "Do something interesting and meaningful with this." The specific examples were just off-the-cuff thoughts on where it could go.
Shock value alone doesn't count for much.
Okay so...lets say clone secret agent (Phyrexians have done this before), with someone else's spark(some unnamed walker we don't care about). Everyone is all OMG Venser is back like whaaaa???? and then ya know, turns out to be a secret sleeper phyrexian.
I'm not saying these are the greatest ideas, only that now that MTG has opened up the gates to "phyrexians with souls" and therefore "phyrexian walkers" there's a lot of room to play with this beyond "oh they killed someone we kinda care about but noone who will really change the product sales."
I don't think "killing someone who might affect product sales" is "good" writing.
Here's what I think affects this more than "product sales:" the phyrexian storyline is still not built up. We're clearly not getting a phyrexia set this year, and I wouldn't be shocked at the pace they're going with it that we don't see it until 2024. What we are getting is a kamigawa set, and we do have a prominent planeswalker from kamigawa. So to move the story forward and as they've been ramping up the involvement of phyrexia (from tezzeret doing some stuff on kaladesh to a bit of oil on ixalan to whatever was going on in kaldheim to now) on other planes she ended up as the first victim. There's no one else on kamigawa who has any kind of background and we're fresh off a set where the gatewatch were called in to go help fight some stuff.
They've also basically backgrounded the old gatewatch. Jace is no longer the poster boy for magic and hasn't been since ixalan, Gideon is dead, liliana is pretending to be a different person, Nissa is off edgelording Zendikar, Chandra is just showing up in stuff for unclear reasons all the time. While I do think the gatewatch will be involved at some point, war of the spark was supposed to be their big Avengers (2012) moment and it landed with a wet thud, so the "main cast" of magic has moved around quite a lot. We're getting a ton of new planeswalkers in the story while going through plot arcs for folks like Elspeth or Teferi or Kaya who were never really part of that big main five.
That said the next person to be compleated is definitely gonna be Chandra and folks are going to be /so/ mad about it.
I agree, it seems like they are establishing a pattern with Vorinclex in Kaldheim and Jin-Gitaxias in Kamigawa where every winter/early spring set will have a surprise praetor or some other reference to New Phyrexia. Which probably means that the actual return to New Phyrexia (or new phyrexia doing a full-on invasion of a different plane) is a few years off.
If I had to guess, the upcoming Brothers’ War set is being done more or less because WotC wants to return to the first storyline where Phyrexia was introduced to introduce new players to the phyrexians and lay the groundwork for Phyrexia’s return as the game’s central villain.
Iirc they also said originally the Brother War was slotted to be released in 2023 to go along with magic 30th anniversary and while tad early its being used to herald what they got planned for in 2023.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Yeah, she's my favorite too, and while it wouldn't surprise me if they killed her off or worse in an ignoble way, it would be extremely infuriating since they already got Tamiyo.