I think the biggest problem that people have, specifically with the DJ art, is that Magical technology is fine, as long as it can be distinguished from scientific technology.
Take for instance 'Warmachine' (from privateer press), the way magic is represented as the power source for its casters looks fantasy as the magic has a specific design away from a scientific look (though its hard to see on the Warmachines themselves, but its a steam punk setting).
Here in this DJ image, the 'monitors' look to clean so its very hard to tell if its generated from magic or science and therefore if you placed the art next to a cyber punk image, you would think it was a regular science based cyber punk image.
If the 'monitors' looked a bit more rough or sigiled (or had some kind of shamantic/ritural connected look (possibly with scrolls or crystal etc)), then it would give it a bit more of a fantasy look.
Imagine if magic was drawn from devises that looked like old fashioned Japanese lanterns, then with a few of those hanging about with some swirls coming from them, it gives a bit more fantasy feel.
I can understand why people dont like this image but i can see where people are okay with it. Myself i fall just slightly on the unhappy side of it.
I think it's pretty much all some form of extravagant decoration.
But we see the exoskeleton is on the turntable, so it's doing.....something, but it's super unclear as to why which at that point just makes this a case of "just throw some tech in the art, who cares?"
I think the biggest problem that people have, specifically with the DJ art, is that Magical technology is fine, as long as it can be distinguished from scientific technology.
Take for instance 'Warmachine' (from privateer press), the way magic is represented as the power source for its casters looks fantasy as the magic has a specific design away from a scientific look (though its hard to see on the Warmachines themselves, but its a steam punk setting).
Here in this DJ image, the 'monitors' look to clean so its very hard to tell if its generated from magic or science and therefore if you placed the art next to a cyber punk image, you would think it was a regular science based cyber punk image.
If the 'monitors' looked a bit more rough or sigiled (or had some kind of shamantic/ritural connected look (possibly with scrolls or crystal etc)), then it would give it a bit more of a fantasy look.
Imagine if magic was drawn from devises that looked like old fashioned Japanese lanterns, then with a few of those hanging about with some swirls coming from them, it gives a bit more fantasy feel.
I can understand why people dont like this image but i can see where people are okay with it. Myself i fall just slightly on the unhappy side of it.
~Funk Pirate
As I previously mentioned, I somewhat understand this, but again, it doesn't explain why science can't be part of fantasy too and why technology going beyond gas lanterns and crossbows in a fantasy world HAS to incorporate magic and fantastic trappings to be "fantasy" enough. Why not have a world like Kamigawa now,in which both science developed while Magic is still part of everyday life, but without Magic necessarily being a component of the technology? Does electricity not work the same way there as it has to in our world? The presence of lightning storms seems to indicate otherwise.
So it seems that the people of Kamigawa, perhaps still under the impression of the Kami war, turned towards understanding the fundamental forces of nature directly instead of by proxy through the Kami, discovered steam power and later electricity (perhaps strengthening both via magic, who knows at this point)and ultimately underwent an industrial and later a computer revolution. But the Kami are still present, magicians channeling them still exist, and there is obvious influence both on the Kami and on the technology without either being interconnected (well until recently). The world also urbanized and jobs like DJs and informaticians (I guess) came into being. Why is this not a legitimate fantasy world?
Ultimately it seems to go against the gut-feeling of a lot of people, and I guess a similar reaction was given to Kaladesh (industry through magical resource, but other fantasy elements downplayed) and Ravnica (highly urbanized, but industry entirely controlled and done via magic and mages). I just hope this third possibility (industry and magic parallel to each other), which is pretty damn rare in fantasy is looked upon a bit warmer once we know more about the set.
But then why? In Dune lasers are rarely used anyway because of their interactions with the shield technology, and the focus is firmly on massive political plots and/or non-urban regions. But no one can tell me that DJs (or an equivalent job) don't exist at all in the Dune universe. So it must be instead the focus on it that feels wrong. This set is about cyberpunk though, a very deeply urban genre, as well as about the dichotomy of tradition vs progress. So the focus on something so urban and modern as a DJ doesn't strike me as odd or unfitting, but simply following through on that theme, same goes for motor bikes, computer, cyborgs (which most people would find extremely out of place in fantasy settings, but they were part of MtG since its beginning basically)... The line still feels arbitrary. In a multiverse with endless possibilities, where invasive cyborg viruses can potentially battle against lovecraftian horrors, where space-faring civilisations encounter almost almighty wizards from other planes of existence a DJ is somehow too much? Oh well, I will probably not get a satisfying answer to this. As long as it doesn't contradict anything, and doesn't feel totally out of place (which it would on say Ravnica or Ixalan but not on a cyberpunk world) I fail to see the problem. Stupid and childish are subjective terms here (especially since we so far only have the artwork without any background explanation).
Obviously finding it chidish is totally subjective, but still remains the fact that it feels out of place, like if it was taken from another game or from another visual/narrative univers and put into MTG. I think it's a matter of internal coherence in building a visual and conceptual style for a certain game/universe. If we take a character from the WOW universe, lets say a knight, and we put it into an high fantasy plane like bant or eldraine, it still feels out of place even if it is a kinght within a world made of castles, dragons and kings. To sum it up i think that partially is a subjective matter and partially not, and it's not a matter of technology is a matter of fitting or not into a brand that has some peculiar traits that distiguish it from others. Imho, a flying warship or a robot fits into MTG, while an airplane or a moto doesn't.
But then why? In Dune lasers are rarely used anyway because of their interactions with the shield technology, and the focus is firmly on massive political plots and/or non-urban regions. But no one can tell me that DJs (or an equivalent job) don't exist at all in the Dune universe. So it must be instead the focus on it that feels wrong. This set is about cyberpunk though, a very deeply urban genre, as well as about the dichotomy of tradition vs progress. So the focus on something so urban and modern as a DJ doesn't strike me as odd or unfitting, but simply following through on that theme, same goes for motor bikes, computer, cyborgs (which most people would find extremely out of place in fantasy settings, but they were part of MtG since its beginning basically)... The line still feels arbitrary. In a multiverse with endless possibilities, where invasive cyborg viruses can potentially battle against lovecraftian horrors, where space-faring civilisations encounter almost almighty wizards from other planes of existence a DJ is somehow too much? Oh well, I will probably not get a satisfying answer to this. As long as it doesn't contradict anything, and doesn't feel totally out of place (which it would on say Ravnica or Ixalan but not on a cyberpunk world) I fail to see the problem. Stupid and childish are subjective terms here (especially since we so far only have the artwork without any background explanation).
Obviously finding it chidish is totally subjective, but still remains the fact that it feels out of place, like if it was taken from another game or from another visual/narrative univers and put into MTG. I think it's a matter of internal coherence in building a visual and conceptual style for a certain game/universe. If we take a character from the WOW universe, lets say a knight, and we put it into an high fantasy plane like bant or eldraine, it still feels out of place even if it is a kinght within a world made of castles, dragons and kings. To sum it up i think that partially is a subjective matter and partially not, and it's not a matter of technology is a matter of fitting or not into a brand that has some peculiar traits that distiguish it from others. Imho, a flying warship or a robot fits into MTG, while an airplane or a moto doesn't.
It might not fit into Eldraine or Bant, but if the WoW universe suddenly became a plane in the multiverse (ignoring its own multiversal cosmology for now), the style would simply be the way it is distinct from other worlds. Goblins from Kylem would look totally out of place on Mirrodin too. Kaladesh technology would stand out on Ravnica (and it did visually when Dovin Baan introduced Thopters to the Azorius). Pretty much everyone on original Mirrodin would stand out on any of the other planes we have seen so far, perhapos with the exception of Esper (and even there the styles would be clashing). I came to MtG specifically because of this kind of variety. Each plane can be entirely different from each other (with the obvious exception of the five mana colors system), including in style. Perhaps that's why I don't get where the fundamental problem lies. The execution on the other hand is another matter, but I will withhold my judgement on that until we get more information.
But then why? In Dune lasers are rarely used anyway because of their interactions with the shield technology, and the focus is firmly on massive political plots and/or non-urban regions. But no one can tell me that DJs (or an equivalent job) don't exist at all in the Dune universe. So it must be instead the focus on it that feels wrong. This set is about cyberpunk though, a very deeply urban genre, as well as about the dichotomy of tradition vs progress. So the focus on something so urban and modern as a DJ doesn't strike me as odd or unfitting, but simply following through on that theme, same goes for motor bikes, computer, cyborgs (which most people would find extremely out of place in fantasy settings, but they were part of MtG since its beginning basically)... The line still feels arbitrary. In a multiverse with endless possibilities, where invasive cyborg viruses can potentially battle against lovecraftian horrors, where space-faring civilisations encounter almost almighty wizards from other planes of existence a DJ is somehow too much? Oh well, I will probably not get a satisfying answer to this. As long as it doesn't contradict anything, and doesn't feel totally out of place (which it would on say Ravnica or Ixalan but not on a cyberpunk world) I fail to see the problem. Stupid and childish are subjective terms here (especially since we so far only have the artwork without any background explanation).
Obviously finding it chidish is totally subjective, but still remains the fact that it feels out of place, like if it was taken from another game or from another visual/narrative univers and put into MTG. I think it's a matter of internal coherence in building a visual and conceptual style for a certain game/universe. If we take a character from the WOW universe, lets say a knight, and we put it into an high fantasy plane like bant or eldraine, it still feels out of place even if it is a kinght within a world made of castles, dragons and kings. To sum it up i think that partially is a subjective matter and partially not, and it's not a matter of technology is a matter of fitting or not into a brand that has some peculiar traits that distiguish it from others. Imho, a flying warship or a robot fits into MTG, while an airplane or a moto doesn't.
It might not fit into Eldraine or Bant, but if the WoW universe suddenly became a plane in the multiverse (ignoring its own multiversal cosmology for now), the style would simply be the way it is distinct from other worlds. Goblins from Kylem would look totally out of place on Mirrodin too. Kaladesh technology would stand out on Ravnica (and it did visually when Dovin Baan introduced Thopters to the Azorius). Pretty much everyone on original Mirrodin would stand out on any of the other planes we have seen so far, perhapos with the exception of Esper (and even there the styles would be clashing). I came to MtG specifically because of this kind of variety. Each plane can be entirely different from each other (with the obvious exception of the five mana colors system), including in style. Perhaps that's why I don't get where the fundamental problem lies. The execution on the other hand is another matter, but I will withhold my judgement on that until we get more information.
you can try to analyze it all you want, you can try to justify it all you want, but at the end of the day for some of us its just too modern and out of place with what magic has defined itself as for the past 30 years. much like seeing rick wield lucille. the artist did a wonderful job, but the concept is just too "not magic" for a lot of people and analysis won't change that.
But then why? In Dune lasers are rarely used anyway because of their interactions with the shield technology, and the focus is firmly on massive political plots and/or non-urban regions. But no one can tell me that DJs (or an equivalent job) don't exist at all in the Dune universe. So it must be instead the focus on it that feels wrong. This set is about cyberpunk though, a very deeply urban genre, as well as about the dichotomy of tradition vs progress. So the focus on something so urban and modern as a DJ doesn't strike me as odd or unfitting, but simply following through on that theme, same goes for motor bikes, computer, cyborgs (which most people would find extremely out of place in fantasy settings, but they were part of MtG since its beginning basically)... The line still feels arbitrary. In a multiverse with endless possibilities, where invasive cyborg viruses can potentially battle against lovecraftian horrors, where space-faring civilisations encounter almost almighty wizards from other planes of existence a DJ is somehow too much? Oh well, I will probably not get a satisfying answer to this. As long as it doesn't contradict anything, and doesn't feel totally out of place (which it would on say Ravnica or Ixalan but not on a cyberpunk world) I fail to see the problem. Stupid and childish are subjective terms here (especially since we so far only have the artwork without any background explanation).
Obviously finding it chidish is totally subjective, but still remains the fact that it feels out of place, like if it was taken from another game or from another visual/narrative univers and put into MTG. I think it's a matter of internal coherence in building a visual and conceptual style for a certain game/universe. If we take a character from the WOW universe, lets say a knight, and we put it into an high fantasy plane like bant or eldraine, it still feels out of place even if it is a kinght within a world made of castles, dragons and kings. To sum it up i think that partially is a subjective matter and partially not, and it's not a matter of technology is a matter of fitting or not into a brand that has some peculiar traits that distiguish it from others. Imho, a flying warship or a robot fits into MTG, while an airplane or a moto doesn't.
It might not fit into Eldraine or Bant, but if the WoW universe suddenly became a plane in the multiverse (ignoring its own multiversal cosmology for now), the style would simply be the way it is distinct from other worlds. Goblins from Kylem would look totally out of place on Mirrodin too. Kaladesh technology would stand out on Ravnica (and it did visually when Dovin Baan introduced Thopters to the Azorius). Pretty much everyone on original Mirrodin would stand out on any of the other planes we have seen so far, perhapos with the exception of Esper (and even there the styles would be clashing). I came to MtG specifically because of this kind of variety. Each plane can be entirely different from each other (with the obvious exception of the five mana colors system), including in style. Perhaps that's why I don't get where the fundamental problem lies. The execution on the other hand is another matter, but I will withhold my judgement on that until we get more information.
you can try to analyze it all you want, you can try to justify it all you want, but at the end of the day for some of us its just too modern and out of place with what magic has defined itself as for the past 30 years. much like seeing rick wield lucille. the artist did a wonderful job, but the concept is just too "not magic" for a lot of people and analysis won't change that.
Well I am not trying to analyse that feeling away, that would be foolhardy. I was just pointing out why I don't quite get that viewpoint (and no, the Universe Beyond cards are an entirely different matter so that is comparing apples with oranges) and wanted to present a different one as well as ask where the (from my point of view) arbitrary distinction of "only this level of modernity and technology is ok" comes from and whether there are actual arguments for it. If it is simply about it not feeling alright on an irrational level or because of personal preconceptions then that's also fine.
I think it's pretty much all some form of extravagant decoration.
But we see the exoskeleton is on the turntable, so it's doing.....something, but it's super unclear as to why which at that point just makes this a case of "just throw some tech in the art, who cares?"
The worst bit is the rope work holding it together... That just screams somebody said "It's high tech, but still samurai look!" at a board meeting. It's so dumb. Seriously some of the worst/dumbest art I've seen in Magic ever.
But it's just one card, and they do make tons of other amazing looking cards.
I think it's pretty much all some form of extravagant decoration.
But we see the exoskeleton is on the turntable, so it's doing.....something, but it's super unclear as to why which at that point just makes this a case of "just throw some tech in the art, who cares?"
The worst bit is the rope work holding it together... That just screams somebody said "It's high tech, but still samurai look!" at a board meeting. It's so dumb. Seriously some of the worst/dumbest art I've seen in Magic ever.
But it's just one card, and they do make tons of other amazing looking cards.
yes! this! i've been thinking this ever since it was spoiled. super high tech magical dj, but hey lets slap a chord of rope on them as a belt because we're a fantasy game with scifi elements and we need to remind people of that. its dumb as ****. like they can design a ******* mix table but not a belt buckle? its like they knew it didn't fit with whats been established for magic so they had to tack something on.
yeah magic has had mechs (the 9 titans) yeah its got body horror scifi (phyrexia) and sure kaladesh has all sorts of vehicles like trains and airships, but they've still always maintained an air of fantasy. cobbled together parts, fantasy elements, no computers or modern real world tech, that sort of thing, and now we just get a straight up dj with whats clearly computer screens. its dumb and i don't like it, no matter how far out of their way someone goes to justify it, to try and make it make sense. it doesn't matter, to me it will always be as jarring as sitting down across from someone who slaps down glen, or rick, or some other real world type card or cross ip thing. there is a certain atmosphere and style that has been established for the past 30 years, and this art feels way more like league of legends than magic the gathering.
for that, i don't like it and never will.
edit: heck thinking more about it i probably wouldn't have cared at all that it was a dj spinning fat beats or whatever the kids say these days if they had just not made it look like computer screens, and instead of a human made it a goblin, or a moonfolk, or some other species native to kamigawa that isn't a human. that would've been okay, that would've fit with the magic aesthetic... but nope!
So this is what the first reaction to The Brother's War is going to look like.
The Brother's War takes place in the past. I think we're safe. But yes, if it has elves with hover boards, it would get the same reaction from me.
The Brother's War is covered in mechsuits, and that's somehow fine?
How many people with mech suits do you see in your everyday life? They're still quite removed from our current reality, which is why they're more readily acceptable as "sci fi-ish fantasy" or "magitech." A DJ? You can go to the club right now (well, maybe not ... right now) and see one. The reason for why we haven't seen DJs up until now is the same reason for why Wizards doesn't do realistic-looking guns. It's not that difficult of a concept to grasp. They're too close to mundane modern life, which is why some people are feeling a disconnect.
I don‘t know where the problem is with mixing science fiction and fantasy. This was already done often in the past:
- Shadowrun takes place in a futuristic cyberpunk world in which the ‚old magic‘ came back.
- Buffy had with ‚Adam‘ a cyber-enhanced demon/vampire hybrid as the big bad in season 4
- A lot of superhero stories have a mix of sci-fi and fantasy (=> e.g. in the Marvel Cinematic Universe)
- The Wolfenstein games contain occult forces and cyber-enhanced supersoldiers
- ‚Sword and Planet‘ like Masters of the Universe
Honestly said: the High Fantasy standards as de facto established by Lord of the Rings 70 years ago became too dominant from my side of view.
Ultimately it seems to go against the gut-feeling of a lot of people, and I guess a similar reaction was given to Kaladesh (industry through magical resource, but other fantasy elements downplayed) and Ravnica (highly urbanized, but industry entirely controlled and done via magic and mages). I just hope this third possibility (industry and magic parallel to each other), which is pretty damn rare in fantasy is looked upon a bit warmer once we know more about the set.
I wonder if its because this style of fantasy is most often written for young adult audiences? Integration between our world and another has long been a troupe to help younger people engage with fantasy (Narnia, Garth Nix work, Darren Shan, Phillip Pullman, Twilight, I could go on) which perhaps makes us instinctively think any modern day fantasy setting is intrinsically childish, even if it isn't. Certainly I felt that way when I read the Rivers of London books even though they are definitely aimed at an adult audience!
I don‘t know where the problem is with mixing science fiction and fantasy. This was already done often in the past:
- Shadowrun takes place in a futuristic cyberpunk world in which the ‚old magic‘ came back.
- Buffy had with ‚Adam‘ a cyber-enhanced demon/vampire hybrid as the big bad in season 4
- A lot of superhero stories have a mix of sci-fi and fantasy (=> e.g. in the Marvel Cinematic Universe)
- The Wolfenstein games contain occult forces and cyber-enhanced supersoldiers
- ‚Sword and Planet‘ like Masters of the Universe
Honestly said: the High Fantasy standards as de facto established by Lord of the Rings 70 years ago became too dominant from my side of view.
Actually most MTG's settings/planes aren't based on standard high-fantasy a la LOTR (that are, in reality, quite rare between MTG's planes). Dominaria, Phyrexia, Mirrodin, Kaladesh, Ravnica, Esper, Vryn (from the little we've seen of it), Arcavios, Kylem are all planes that are or strictly sci-fi based with robots etc. (phyrexia, Mirrodin, Kaladesh) or are planes with an high degree of technology in it. The problem is that a plane with a type of technology that is too visually adherent to real world technology is, for me at least, not-cohesive with the whole "mood" and visual/conceptual trand estlabished through almost 30 years of MTG's history, Sure, there have been different planes but all of them, even the technologically advanced ones, are kept well apart from the technology/reality of our present world, and i think that this is a distinctive trait that strongly separates Magic from other similar games.
Ultimately it seems to go against the gut-feeling of a lot of people, and I guess a similar reaction was given to Kaladesh (industry through magical resource, but other fantasy elements downplayed) and Ravnica (highly urbanized, but industry entirely controlled and done via magic and mages). I just hope this third possibility (industry and magic parallel to each other), which is pretty damn rare in fantasy is looked upon a bit warmer once we know more about the set.
I wonder if its because this style of fantasy is most often written for young adult audiences? Integration between our world and another has long been a troupe to help younger people engage with fantasy (Narnia, Garth Nix work, Darren Shan, Phillip Pullman, Twilight, I could go on) which perhaps makes us instinctively think any modern day fantasy setting is intrinsically childish, even if it isn't. Certainly I felt that way when I read the Rivers of London books even though they are definitely aimed at an adult audience!
You might have a point, though the difference to Kamigawa is that these YA novels usually deal with the integration by assuming some kind of "veil" between our society and the other, that both exist in parallel only because one or both sides don't know the other exists. This is certainly not the case here in Kamigawa and quite frankly I can't think of many fantasy novels from the top of my head that have a world both fully integrate its fantasy elements AND still undergo a (mostly) seperated industrial revolution. I think people also underestimate how little technology based not on Magic (exclusively, we still don't have any details about it aside from the fact that electricity is being used) can diverge overall. You can give it a fantasy flair of course, but ultimately the idea of a technology will be limited by physical laws (again, if Magic isn't that involved, and if it is, isn't just used to upgrade the technology in some way). A pyramid in Amonkhet might diverge from ours by virtue of having their top parts levitating, but they are still pyramids, they are built like them and have presumably a similar function. Same goes for other architecture, clothing, swords, crossbows, airships and yes, computers and DJs as well. It seems the only difference is that we don't experience many of these things in our normal life anymore, but a) I don't see many holograms or exoskeleton suits around in our daily lifes and b) Magic has had tons of mundane stuff in it that doesn't considerably differ from normal life. Sure, the concept might still be stupid, but not because something is fundamentally wrong with having a DJ in MtG but because of some questionable design choices when it comes to their appearance. Same goes for computers, drones etc. But oh well, it is as it is, some people don't like this direction because they simply don't feel like it fits for them, and that is fine. I just can't relate.
Still pretty funny to me it's 2022 and the grudge is with literally 100+ year old technologies like "headphones" and "turntables" being used in a style that's existed since notoriously bad dude jimmy saville started doing it in the 40s as a "disc jockey." Call me when a magic character invents cryptocurrency on their smartphone.
If you want to blame anything tbh, blame the popularity of league of legends. As a "multi-planar" fantasy product magic has been far behind the times of stuff like world of warcraft or even regular dungeons and dragons in depicting creative magical alternatives to 19th century bleeding edge technologies.
Sure, the concept might still be stupid, but not because something is fundamentally wrong with having a DJ in MtG but because of some questionable design choices when it comes to their appearance. Same goes for computers, drones etc.
Yes, as many others have stated it's not so much the concept but the execution that's the "problem" (putting this in quotes because it's clearly not a problem for everyone). MtG taking the concept of a DJ and putting its own spin on it is fine, just like the thopters in Kaladesh were basically magic drones. The thing is just that in this specific case, at first glance it looks doesn't look so much like "magic version of X" but rather just "X."
So this is what the first reaction to The Brother's War is going to look like.
The Brother's War takes place in the past. I think we're safe. But yes, if it has elves with hover boards, it would get the same reaction from me.
The Brother's War is covered in mechsuits, and that's somehow fine?
How many people with mech suits do you see in your everyday life? They're still quite removed from our current reality, which is why they're more readily acceptable as "sci fi-ish fantasy" or "magitech." A DJ? You can go to the club right now (well, maybe not ... right now) and see one. The reason for why we haven't seen DJs up until now is the same reason for why Wizards doesn't do realistic-looking guns. It's not that difficult of a concept to grasp. They're too close to mundane modern life, which is why some people are feeling a disconnect.
Let me get this straight: the DJ is over the line because it's something that exists in modern life, but a mechsuit, which would probably exist in the far future, is allowed? I thought the problem was DJs are too futuristic for the time period we want Magic's fantasy to be based on? Are we moving goalposts now?
Let me get this straight: the DJ is over the line because it's something that exists in modern life, but a mechsuit, which would probably exist in the far future, is allowed? I thought the problem was DJs are too futuristic for the time period we want Magic's fantasy to be based on? Are we moving goalposts now?
Sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. So sufficiently advanced magic-fueled technology feels foreign enough to be fantasy. Lightsabers are not sci-fi, they are fantasy. They are magic crystal powered magic swords, swords with flaming blades.
Fantasy abhors the mundane, not the futuristic. That's why we accept airships and jet-packs and tanks, but recoil at pencil sharpeners, jeans shorts and mini vans. Give them holograms signs, give them old-timey wanted posters, but don't give them sticky notes.
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Planar Chaos was not a mistake neither was it random. You might want to look at it again.
[thread=239793][Game] Level Up - Creature[/thread]
]Let me get this straight: the DJ is over the line because it's something that exists in modern life, but a mechsuit, which would probably exist in the far future, is allowed? I thought the problem was DJs are too futuristic for the time period we want Magic's fantasy to be based on? Are we moving goalposts now?
Pretty sure the issue is that it's just a DJ. There's nothing fantastical about it because the fantasy elements there (the exoskeleton) is ill explained and has no reason to be there. It honestly looks like a skin from League of Legends or any other MOBA and therefore loses any identity to Magic.
If they had made that something connected to Kamigawa (make it a fox, moonfolk, or them dressed like a ninja so we can have a Ninja Bard) then I'm sure less would have an issue with it, but unfortunately it just looks like a DJ, plain as can be.
]Let me get this straight: the DJ is over the line because it's something that exists in modern life, but a mechsuit, which would probably exist in the far future, is allowed? I thought the problem was DJs are too futuristic for the time period we want Magic's fantasy to be based on? Are we moving goalposts now?
Pretty sure the issue is that it's just a DJ. There's nothing fantastical about it because the fantasy elements there (the exoskeleton) is ill explained and has no reason to be there. It honestly looks like a skin from League of Legends or any other MOBA and therefore loses any identity to Magic.
If they had made that something connected to Kamigawa (make it a fox, moonfolk, or them dressed like a ninja so we can have a Ninja Bard) then I'm sure less would have an issue with it, but unfortunately it just looks like a DJ, plain as can be.
So, why don't we have more of a problem with Seller of Songbirds it's just a seller of Songbirds, something going that exists in markets throughout history.
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Take for instance 'Warmachine' (from privateer press), the way magic is represented as the power source for its casters looks fantasy as the magic has a specific design away from a scientific look (though its hard to see on the Warmachines themselves, but its a steam punk setting).
Here in this DJ image, the 'monitors' look to clean so its very hard to tell if its generated from magic or science and therefore if you placed the art next to a cyber punk image, you would think it was a regular science based cyber punk image.
If the 'monitors' looked a bit more rough or sigiled (or had some kind of shamantic/ritural connected look (possibly with scrolls or crystal etc)), then it would give it a bit more of a fantasy look.
Imagine if magic was drawn from devises that looked like old fashioned Japanese lanterns, then with a few of those hanging about with some swirls coming from them, it gives a bit more fantasy feel.
I can understand why people dont like this image but i can see where people are okay with it. Myself i fall just slightly on the unhappy side of it.
~Funk Pirate
But we see the exoskeleton is on the turntable, so it's doing.....something, but it's super unclear as to why which at that point just makes this a case of "just throw some tech in the art, who cares?"
As I previously mentioned, I somewhat understand this, but again, it doesn't explain why science can't be part of fantasy too and why technology going beyond gas lanterns and crossbows in a fantasy world HAS to incorporate magic and fantastic trappings to be "fantasy" enough. Why not have a world like Kamigawa now,in which both science developed while Magic is still part of everyday life, but without Magic necessarily being a component of the technology? Does electricity not work the same way there as it has to in our world? The presence of lightning storms seems to indicate otherwise.
So it seems that the people of Kamigawa, perhaps still under the impression of the Kami war, turned towards understanding the fundamental forces of nature directly instead of by proxy through the Kami, discovered steam power and later electricity (perhaps strengthening both via magic, who knows at this point)and ultimately underwent an industrial and later a computer revolution. But the Kami are still present, magicians channeling them still exist, and there is obvious influence both on the Kami and on the technology without either being interconnected (well until recently). The world also urbanized and jobs like DJs and informaticians (I guess) came into being. Why is this not a legitimate fantasy world?
Ultimately it seems to go against the gut-feeling of a lot of people, and I guess a similar reaction was given to Kaladesh (industry through magical resource, but other fantasy elements downplayed) and Ravnica (highly urbanized, but industry entirely controlled and done via magic and mages). I just hope this third possibility (industry and magic parallel to each other), which is pretty damn rare in fantasy is looked upon a bit warmer once we know more about the set.
Obviously finding it chidish is totally subjective, but still remains the fact that it feels out of place, like if it was taken from another game or from another visual/narrative univers and put into MTG. I think it's a matter of internal coherence in building a visual and conceptual style for a certain game/universe. If we take a character from the WOW universe, lets say a knight, and we put it into an high fantasy plane like bant or eldraine, it still feels out of place even if it is a kinght within a world made of castles, dragons and kings. To sum it up i think that partially is a subjective matter and partially not, and it's not a matter of technology is a matter of fitting or not into a brand that has some peculiar traits that distiguish it from others. Imho, a flying warship or a robot fits into MTG, while an airplane or a moto doesn't.
It might not fit into Eldraine or Bant, but if the WoW universe suddenly became a plane in the multiverse (ignoring its own multiversal cosmology for now), the style would simply be the way it is distinct from other worlds. Goblins from Kylem would look totally out of place on Mirrodin too. Kaladesh technology would stand out on Ravnica (and it did visually when Dovin Baan introduced Thopters to the Azorius). Pretty much everyone on original Mirrodin would stand out on any of the other planes we have seen so far, perhapos with the exception of Esper (and even there the styles would be clashing). I came to MtG specifically because of this kind of variety. Each plane can be entirely different from each other (with the obvious exception of the five mana colors system), including in style. Perhaps that's why I don't get where the fundamental problem lies. The execution on the other hand is another matter, but I will withhold my judgement on that until we get more information.
you can try to analyze it all you want, you can try to justify it all you want, but at the end of the day for some of us its just too modern and out of place with what magic has defined itself as for the past 30 years. much like seeing rick wield lucille. the artist did a wonderful job, but the concept is just too "not magic" for a lot of people and analysis won't change that.
Well I am not trying to analyse that feeling away, that would be foolhardy. I was just pointing out why I don't quite get that viewpoint (and no, the Universe Beyond cards are an entirely different matter so that is comparing apples with oranges) and wanted to present a different one as well as ask where the (from my point of view) arbitrary distinction of "only this level of modernity and technology is ok" comes from and whether there are actual arguments for it. If it is simply about it not feeling alright on an irrational level or because of personal preconceptions then that's also fine.
The Brother's War takes place in the past. I think we're safe. But yes, if it has elves with hover boards, it would get the same reaction from me.
The worst bit is the rope work holding it together... That just screams somebody said "It's high tech, but still samurai look!" at a board meeting. It's so dumb. Seriously some of the worst/dumbest art I've seen in Magic ever.
But it's just one card, and they do make tons of other amazing looking cards.
yes! this! i've been thinking this ever since it was spoiled. super high tech magical dj, but hey lets slap a chord of rope on them as a belt because we're a fantasy game with scifi elements and we need to remind people of that. its dumb as ****. like they can design a ******* mix table but not a belt buckle? its like they knew it didn't fit with whats been established for magic so they had to tack something on.
yeah magic has had mechs (the 9 titans) yeah its got body horror scifi (phyrexia) and sure kaladesh has all sorts of vehicles like trains and airships, but they've still always maintained an air of fantasy. cobbled together parts, fantasy elements, no computers or modern real world tech, that sort of thing, and now we just get a straight up dj with whats clearly computer screens. its dumb and i don't like it, no matter how far out of their way someone goes to justify it, to try and make it make sense. it doesn't matter, to me it will always be as jarring as sitting down across from someone who slaps down glen, or rick, or some other real world type card or cross ip thing. there is a certain atmosphere and style that has been established for the past 30 years, and this art feels way more like league of legends than magic the gathering.
for that, i don't like it and never will.
edit: heck thinking more about it i probably wouldn't have cared at all that it was a dj spinning fat beats or whatever the kids say these days if they had just not made it look like computer screens, and instead of a human made it a goblin, or a moonfolk, or some other species native to kamigawa that isn't a human. that would've been okay, that would've fit with the magic aesthetic... but nope!
- Shadowrun takes place in a futuristic cyberpunk world in which the ‚old magic‘ came back.
- Buffy had with ‚Adam‘ a cyber-enhanced demon/vampire hybrid as the big bad in season 4
- A lot of superhero stories have a mix of sci-fi and fantasy (=> e.g. in the Marvel Cinematic Universe)
- The Wolfenstein games contain occult forces and cyber-enhanced supersoldiers
- ‚Sword and Planet‘ like Masters of the Universe
Honestly said: the High Fantasy standards as de facto established by Lord of the Rings 70 years ago became too dominant from my side of view.
I wonder if its because this style of fantasy is most often written for young adult audiences? Integration between our world and another has long been a troupe to help younger people engage with fantasy (Narnia, Garth Nix work, Darren Shan, Phillip Pullman, Twilight, I could go on) which perhaps makes us instinctively think any modern day fantasy setting is intrinsically childish, even if it isn't. Certainly I felt that way when I read the Rivers of London books even though they are definitely aimed at an adult audience!
Modern: WRHumans aggroWR
Actually most MTG's settings/planes aren't based on standard high-fantasy a la LOTR (that are, in reality, quite rare between MTG's planes). Dominaria, Phyrexia, Mirrodin, Kaladesh, Ravnica, Esper, Vryn (from the little we've seen of it), Arcavios, Kylem are all planes that are or strictly sci-fi based with robots etc. (phyrexia, Mirrodin, Kaladesh) or are planes with an high degree of technology in it. The problem is that a plane with a type of technology that is too visually adherent to real world technology is, for me at least, not-cohesive with the whole "mood" and visual/conceptual trand estlabished through almost 30 years of MTG's history, Sure, there have been different planes but all of them, even the technologically advanced ones, are kept well apart from the technology/reality of our present world, and i think that this is a distinctive trait that strongly separates Magic from other similar games.
You might have a point, though the difference to Kamigawa is that these YA novels usually deal with the integration by assuming some kind of "veil" between our society and the other, that both exist in parallel only because one or both sides don't know the other exists. This is certainly not the case here in Kamigawa and quite frankly I can't think of many fantasy novels from the top of my head that have a world both fully integrate its fantasy elements AND still undergo a (mostly) seperated industrial revolution. I think people also underestimate how little technology based not on Magic (exclusively, we still don't have any details about it aside from the fact that electricity is being used) can diverge overall. You can give it a fantasy flair of course, but ultimately the idea of a technology will be limited by physical laws (again, if Magic isn't that involved, and if it is, isn't just used to upgrade the technology in some way). A pyramid in Amonkhet might diverge from ours by virtue of having their top parts levitating, but they are still pyramids, they are built like them and have presumably a similar function. Same goes for other architecture, clothing, swords, crossbows, airships and yes, computers and DJs as well. It seems the only difference is that we don't experience many of these things in our normal life anymore, but a) I don't see many holograms or exoskeleton suits around in our daily lifes and b) Magic has had tons of mundane stuff in it that doesn't considerably differ from normal life. Sure, the concept might still be stupid, but not because something is fundamentally wrong with having a DJ in MtG but because of some questionable design choices when it comes to their appearance. Same goes for computers, drones etc. But oh well, it is as it is, some people don't like this direction because they simply don't feel like it fits for them, and that is fine. I just can't relate.
Yes
If you want to blame anything tbh, blame the popularity of league of legends. As a "multi-planar" fantasy product magic has been far behind the times of stuff like world of warcraft or even regular dungeons and dragons in depicting creative magical alternatives to 19th century bleeding edge technologies.
I don't recall that they had hoverboards before Prophecy.
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
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Sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. So sufficiently advanced magic-fueled technology feels foreign enough to be fantasy. Lightsabers are not sci-fi, they are fantasy. They are magic crystal powered magic swords, swords with flaming blades.
Fantasy abhors the mundane, not the futuristic. That's why we accept airships and jet-packs and tanks, but recoil at pencil sharpeners, jeans shorts and mini vans. Give them holograms signs, give them old-timey wanted posters, but don't give them sticky notes.
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
Factions: Sleeping
Remnants: Valheim
Legendary Journey: Heroes & Planeswalkers
Saga: Shards of Rabiah
Legends: The Elder Dragons
Read up on Red Flags & NWO
Pretty sure the issue is that it's just a DJ. There's nothing fantastical about it because the fantasy elements there (the exoskeleton) is ill explained and has no reason to be there. It honestly looks like a skin from League of Legends or any other MOBA and therefore loses any identity to Magic.
If they had made that something connected to Kamigawa (make it a fox, moonfolk, or them dressed like a ninja so we can have a Ninja Bard) then I'm sure less would have an issue with it, but unfortunately it just looks like a DJ, plain as can be.
Its just a reskin of Flying Carpet.
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So, why don't we have more of a problem with Seller of Songbirds it's just a seller of Songbirds, something going that exists in markets throughout history.