I wonder why they changed the Kitsunes' faces? I know the originals where weird, but I always felt it fit the theme.
Yeah, the new kitsune seem to have a lack of facial diversity in comparison, as if all of them subscribed to the same facial powder and face paint. I hope for a story with strong flavour about why the kitsunes' faces changed that way in-universe (rather like the one that Wizards has to give for how the orochi lost their legs and the one they should give for how kappas have been brought back (or at least "brought back") from Shell of the Last Kappa-implied extinction - the kappa one they can explain with cloning, the orochi...).
I always felt that the Kitsune faces in the original were all almost impossible to differentiate from each other. I prefer the newer version. And that's most certainly not a Kappa, but an Akki, a goblin from Kamigawa, which ironically were modelled after Kappas in the original Kamigawa block (while still implying that there were actual Kappas once). I could see them having the Orochi lose their legs to change them from Snakes to Naga (which I wouldn't be in favor of, but oh well). The reason for that change could be anything, it has been a while after all since the Kami War.
a DJ playing some music isn't even showing the height of Kamigawan technology in this era. If you don't like futuristic technology in your fantasy stories then Magic hasn't been up your alley since pretty much its beginning (see the Thran's satellite launches and all the robots of the Brother's War for example).
I disagree and I have explained a few times why the futuristic art style in this is way too sci fi, and that's coming from somebody who's favourite plane in terms of art direction is Kaladesh (the most "high tech" plane we've previously seen).
The DJ ***** is just too much for me. It looks ******* ridiculous to me.
a DJ playing some music isn't even showing the height of Kamigawan technology in this era. If you don't like futuristic technology in your fantasy stories then Magic hasn't been up your alley since pretty much its beginning (see the Thran's satellite launches and all the robots of the Brother's War for example).
I disagree and I have explained a few times why the futuristic art style in this is way too sci fi, and that's coming from somebody who's favourite plane in terms of art direction is Kaladesh (the most "high tech" plane we've previously seen).
The DJ ***** is just too much for me. It looks ******* ridiculous to me.
You are of course entitled to your own opinion, but quite frankly, you haven't really explained why exactly you find this too sci-fi. Is it the notion that fantasy worlds should never have technology beyond medieval (or earlier) era one? That always raised the question for me, why that particular limit? It is not like this is a purely sci-fi world now, it is still a fantasy world with Kami and Magic, but also with technology, some of which adapting to the fantasy elements and vice versa. Swords, catapults, architecture, musical instruments, all that already requires technology. Why is that ok in a fantasy world, but anything beyond that is not?
To specifically defend this DJ art: If you have computers and the ability to save and manipulate music on some form of medium, someone is bound to come up with such an idea. It is just as 'legitimate' as robot drones and giant hologram cities are. Sure, if you hate that already I get it. But I personally see no deeper problem with it.
I have explained it a few times, but the gist of it is, I think this is way to "modern sci fi" compared to Kaladesh and old brothers war stuff because tis visually looks too "modern" compared to what we've seen in magic.
Even the old high tech stuff was still very much rooted in "fantasy" art direction. Kinda like how something like steampunk styles has stuff like air balloons and fairly high tech stuff (Like the old robot armies and Kaladesh vehicles etc), but again, it was all rooted in "fantasy" style. There's this tech threshold that they never go past.
The biker mice from mars I could kinda accept, because of vehhicles we've seen previously (even though the artwork here again looks very modern sci fi, and yes, even compared to the old stuff and fleetwheel cruisers and ***** like that) The whole art direction of the modern aspects are way too modern. I like what we've seen of the ancient stuff though, and the full art lands depicting old Kamigawa are some of my favourite lands they have ever made.
The DJ in particular is an absolutely terrible piece of artwork that doesn't blend the old and new meeting. It's a ******* dj standing with exo skeleton stuff on his body with ******* rope tying the fingers and plates together because "oh this will totally look like a nod to old school samurais" while he's ******* spinning hologram vinyl with pyro shooting out of his shoulders. In a club.
The rope between the exo skeleton fingers is the worst part of the whole thing to me. It just looks so dumb and lazy. So they have giant skyskraper cities holograms, electricity everywere and all types of *****, but you need rope for the fingers??? It's so dumb. I can't get over how bad that image is really. Looks like some loading screen for a fan made dota 2 skin or something. Terrible terrible terrible piece of art to showcase Magic.
I love sci fi stuff in general way more than fantasy stuff, but Magic to me is fantasy game and not futuristic and modern.
It's all highly subjective though, so I'm not saying other people can't like it or disagree, I just find the futuristic stuff way too modern (again, yes, even compared to old brothers war stuff. Very much so)
I wonder why they changed the Kitsunes' faces? I know the originals where weird, but I always felt it fit the theme.
Yeah, the new kitsune seem to have a lack of facial diversity in comparison, as if all of them subscribed to the same facial powder and face paint. I hope for a story with strong flavour about why the kitsunes' faces changed that way in-universe (rather like the one that Wizards has to give for how the orochi lost their legs and the one they should give for how kappas have been brought back (or at least "brought back") from Shell of the Last Kappa-implied extinction - the kappa one they can explain with cloning, the orochi...).
I always felt that the Kitsune faces in the original were all almost impossible to differentiate from each other. I prefer the newer version. And that's most certainly not a Kappa, but an Akki, a goblin from Kamigawa, which ironically were modelled after Kappas in the original Kamigawa block (while still implying that there were actual Kappas once). I could see them having the Orochi lose their legs to change them from Snakes to Naga (which I wouldn't be in favor of, but oh well). The reason for that change could be anything, it has been a while after all since the Kami War.
And a casual glance at every creature card with the "Fox" creature type in Gatherer and filtering for only kitsune reveals they had different fur colours (at least white and yellow, one even looks kinda blue), different facial markings, and even different facial hair. Looks like we're losing at least different fur colours in Neon Dynasty.
And a casual glance at every creature card with the "Fox" creature type in Gatherer and filtering for only kitsune reveals they had different fur colours (at least white and yellow, one even looks kinda blue), different facial markings, and even different facial hair. Looks like we're losing at least different fur colours in Neon Dynasty.
Are you getting that from just the one piece of art? We have one hard-to-see card and one piece of art depicting kitsune. I think we're getting a little ahead of ourselves in extrapolating what the tribe as a whole looks like in the set.
I'd be fine if this is Crimson Vow power level. Both Innistrad sets seem just about right for Standard.
And a casual glance at every creature card with the "Fox" creature type in Gatherer and filtering for only kitsune reveals they had different fur colours (at least white and yellow, one even looks kinda blue), different facial markings, and even different facial hair. Looks like we're losing at least different fur colours in Neon Dynasty.
Are you getting that from just the one piece of art? We have one hard-to-see card and one piece of art depicting kitsune. I think we're getting a little ahead of ourselves in extrapolating what the tribe as a whole looks like in the set.
I'd be fine if this is Crimson Vow power level. Both Innistrad sets seem just about right for Standard.
The concept art outright says that "Kitsune...are white with red fur markings." I think extrapolating from that Wizards statement is reasonable.
I'd be glad to see at least one yellow throwback kitsune with no fur markings.
Crimson Vow's power level was one of the lowest I've seen yet Modern-wise - 1-2 cards from it half-heartedly made it into maindecks and even got interchangeably kicked in and out over the course of days and weeks (Wandering Mind and Blood Fountain are the ones that significantly rotated in and out; I only saw Cemetery Illuminator and Cemetery Gatekeeper once or twice). End the Festivities made it into Legacy sideboards pretty solidly, but that was a given since it's strictly better than cards that did its job like Blazing Volley.
It's a bad sign for me when I lose interest in playing Magic: the Gathering (admittedly on Cockatrice against myself right now) and start swapping to other games while I wait for a new set.
Someone on Maro's Tumblr account said they no longer want a return to Lorwyn because they used a monkey paw and got this with their wish to go back to Kamigawa, well, that's what this set's art looks like to me.
A rat riding a motorcycle, I'm out. Not out of Magic, this set.
I admit it does remind me of a child's book I had when I was young. "Duke Toad, rollin' down the road, in his shiny new motorcycle!" Rats and toads are like same thing with different skin in a way.
The concept art outright says that "Kitsune...are white with red fur markings." I think extrapolating from that Wizards statement is reasonable.
I'd be glad to see at least one yellow throwback kitsune with no fur markings.
Crimson Vow's power level was one of the lowest I've seen yet Modern-wise - 1-2 cards from it half-heartedly made it into maindecks and even got interchangeably kicked in and out over the course of days and weeks (Wandering Mind and Blood Fountain are the ones that significantly rotated in and out; I only saw Cemetery Illuminator and Cemetery Gatekeeper once or twice). End the Festivities made it into Legacy sideboards pretty solidly, but that was a given since it's strictly better than cards that did its job like Blazing Volley.
It's a bad sign for me when I lose interest in playing Magic: the Gathering (admittedly on Cockatrice against myself right now) and start swapping to other games while I wait for a new set.
My bad man, honestly didn't see the blurb about the markings. Power level though, still disagree. It seems not that long ago when the question for each standard set was "are there cards in this set that could see eternal play." Now it seems like it's a given that every set will have new modern+ cards and the question just becomes "how many"? Maybe that's a misconception, but it certainly feels that way.
I have explained it a few times, but the gist of it is, I think this is way to "modern sci fi" compared to Kaladesh and old brothers war stuff because tis visually looks too "modern" compared to what we've seen in magic.
Even the old high tech stuff was still very much rooted in "fantasy" art direction. Kinda like how something like steampunk styles has stuff like air balloons and fairly high tech stuff (Like the old robot armies and Kaladesh vehicles etc), but again, it was all rooted in "fantasy" style. There's this tech threshold that they never go past.
The biker mice from mars I could kinda accept, because of vehhicles we've seen previously (even though the artwork here again looks very modern sci fi, and yes, even compared to the old stuff and fleetwheel cruisers and ***** like that) The whole art direction of the modern aspects are way too modern. I like what we've seen of the ancient stuff though, and the full art lands depicting old Kamigawa are some of my favourite lands they have ever made.
The DJ in particular is an absolutely terrible piece of artwork that doesn't blend the old and new meeting. It's a ******* dj standing with exo skeleton stuff on his body with ******* rope tying the fingers and plates together because "oh this will totally look like a nod to old school samurais" while he's ******* spinning hologram vinyl with pyro shooting out of his shoulders. In a club.
The rope between the exo skeleton fingers is the worst part of the whole thing to me. It just looks so dumb and lazy. So they have giant skyskraper cities holograms, electricity everywere and all types of *****, but you need rope for the fingers??? It's so dumb. I can't get over how bad that image is really. Looks like some loading screen for a fan made dota 2 skin or something. Terrible terrible terrible piece of art to showcase Magic.
I love sci fi stuff in general way more than fantasy stuff, but Magic to me is fantasy game and not futuristic and modern.
It's all highly subjective though, so I'm not saying other people can't like it or disagree, I just find the futuristic stuff way too modern (again, yes, even compared to old brothers war stuff. Very much so)
Again, fair enough, and I can even understand that the DJ art can be quite jarring (I would still argue that this is for me at least something conceivable for a cyberpunk setting on a world where samurai did and are factoring in, basically a style this DJ is using, but again, this is clearly all subjective).
What I still don't get is these arbitrary lines that some people draw when it comes to technology and modern day cultural influences appearing in fantasy. Fantasy is not defined as 'swords and arrows and absolute monarchies stuck in medieval eras where the fastest way to travel is via horses'. Kamigawa hasn't been replaced with 'cyberpunk japan' - world, it has developed like our world did as well, but still in its own way, caused by the fact that magic exists, that Kamis exist etc. It is still very much fantasy, just with modern (and fantastic) technology. There are countless worlds in the multiverse, and at least some HAVE to go through some kind of technological evolution over time. Kaladesh is in fact worse than Kamigawa in that regard, it might look a bit more fantastic because of the swirling patterns and aether being a fantastic resource, but ultimately it is in a quite extreme industrial revolution and its fantastic elements are so surpressed that natural mages were practically looked down upon by and removed from society until very recently. Kamigawa now looks a bit more similar to our world through cyberpunk trappings, but it has way more fantastic elements in it than Kaladesh in my opinion. So my question is still why this specifically is so fundamentally unpalatable for some people?
You are of course entitled to your own opinion, but quite frankly, you haven't really explained why exactly you find this too sci-fi. Is it the notion that fantasy worlds should never have technology beyond medieval (or earlier) era one? That always raised the question for me, why that particular limit? It is not like this is a purely sci-fi world now, it is still a fantasy world with Kami and Magic, but also with technology, some of which adapting to the fantasy elements and vice versa. Swords, catapults, architecture, musical instruments, all that already requires technology. Why is that ok in a fantasy world, but anything beyond that is not?
To specifically defend this DJ art: If you have computers and the ability to save and manipulate music on some form of medium, someone is bound to come up with such an idea. It is just as 'legitimate' as robot drones and giant hologram cities are. Sure, if you hate that already I get it. But I personally see no deeper problem with it.
I personally don't think it's necessarily the tech level itself. DJs seem perfectly fine in a setting like kamigawa or kaladesh. But the issue I have with the artwork is that it looks too much like the real world. He's not operating some fantastic music instrument, he's literally using a turntable. And his headphones look like something you can actually buy at the store. It's too close to the real world. Remove the weird exoskeleton (that serves no purpose as far as I can tell, why does a DJ need an exosuit?) and it looks like art for a game set in modern times.
In fact my first reaction when I saw the artwork was that it's either a crossover (like from the fortnite set) or an un-set artwork.
There's a way to have "modern technology" in a fantasy setting without falling into the uncanny art valley.
The nezumi biker for example? I don't mind that. The fact that the wheels are actually magic energy whatevers instead of wheels removes it far enough away from the real world. Truth be told a bike is basic enough (it's just an engine with wheels and a seat on top) that I probably wouldn't even mind one in a setting like kaladesh or kamigawa either, even if it's mostly mechanical (with a magic fueled engine).
You are of course entitled to your own opinion, but quite frankly, you haven't really explained why exactly you find this too sci-fi. Is it the notion that fantasy worlds should never have technology beyond medieval (or earlier) era one? That always raised the question for me, why that particular limit? It is not like this is a purely sci-fi world now, it is still a fantasy world with Kami and Magic, but also with technology, some of which adapting to the fantasy elements and vice versa. Swords, catapults, architecture, musical instruments, all that already requires technology. Why is that ok in a fantasy world, but anything beyond that is not?
To specifically defend this DJ art: If you have computers and the ability to save and manipulate music on some form of medium, someone is bound to come up with such an idea. It is just as 'legitimate' as robot drones and giant hologram cities are. Sure, if you hate that already I get it. But I personally see no deeper problem with it.
I personally don't think it's necessarily the tech level itself. DJs seem perfectly fine in a setting like kamigawa or kaladesh. But the issue I have with the artwork is that it looks too much like the real world. He's not operating some fantastic music instrument, he's literally using a turntable. And his headphones look like something you can actually buy at the store. It's too close to the real world. Remove the weird exoskeleton (that serves no purpose as far as I can tell, why does a DJ need an exosuit?) and it looks like art for a game set in modern times.
In fact my first reaction when I saw the artwork was that it's either a crossover (like from the fortnite set) or an un-set artwork.
There's a way to have "modern technology" in a fantasy setting without falling into the uncanny art valley.
The nezumi biker for example? I don't mind that. The fact that the wheels are actually magic energy whatevers instead of wheels removes it far enough away from the real world. Truth be told a bike is basic enough (it's just an engine with wheels and a seat on top) that I probably wouldn't even mind one in a setting like kaladesh or kamigawa either, even if it's mostly mechanical (with a magic fueled engine).
Also quite understandable, though I have to say that it is still clearly not just a normal turntable, not only because of the holograms but also the fires coming out of it (might also be the reason for the exoskeleton, for handling that instrument? That one might also just be 'for style' though. ) I mean, we have seen harps and other instruments that barely look different from their real-life counterparts and don't show as obvious magical influences. Why is that not also skirting too close? And yeah the headphones could have been made a bit more detailed and ornated or perhaps free floating to distinguish them as a bit more 'magical', but the underlying technology of them doesn't really have many ways to look (basically being loudspeakers covering your ears). This is a world that DID undergo many of the technological advances of our world (TVs are also mentioned). Think Legend of Korra where most technology is pretty much our technology, just that the electricity comes from a magical source. That's what we are dealing with here too. I still think the underlying question is why old technology in fantasy (like swords, harps and other instruments, catapults etc.) are ok if they look exactly like their real world counterparts, but modern tech has to be almost smothered in fantasy trappings to look palatable. That's what I can't quite wrap my head around.
In short, because of these such flavour-strong promotional vibes, I fear Kamigawa: Neon Dynasty will similarly not be a powerful set (I'd estimate Crimson Vow levels of not-powerful), at least when it comes to Modern and up. We only perceive Throne of Eldraine as powerful - and arguably, so does Wizards - because Oko, Thief of Crowns and Once Upon a Time are ban-worthy levels of jacked. Drop them from consideration and Emry, Lurker of the Loch feels like the most powerful remaining card for a mile, with everything behind her being interchangeable role players at best (and often even being interchangeable in practice in tournament results - Drown in the Loch is enjoying one hell of a heyday right now, but that card has perennially disappointed me a la Prismatic Ending and Portable Hole due to repeatedly failing when you want hard removal the most). ...OK, Brazen Borrower and Bonecrusher Giant have solid niches in Cascade decks, but Brazen Borrower's body often hasn't felt like it's worth a card, and Bonecrusher Giant has proven itself to be interchangeable (with stuff like Seasoned Pyromancer and Dead // Gone) even in Cascade decks.
I fear such emphasis on flavour in the promotional phase is hiding a lack of power and tournament impact in the release phase.
Did you really just use Throne of Eldraine as an example of a not powerful set. Because it's only got two cards banned in modern? I get that Modern Horizons 1/2 have changed expectations of how many cards a new set needs to feed into eternal formats, but come on.
In short, because of these such flavour-strong promotional vibes, I fear Kamigawa: Neon Dynasty will similarly not be a powerful set (I'd estimate Crimson Vow levels of not-powerful), at least when it comes to Modern and up. We only perceive Throne of Eldraine as powerful - and arguably, so does Wizards - because Oko, Thief of Crowns and Once Upon a Time are ban-worthy levels of jacked. Drop them from consideration and Emry, Lurker of the Loch feels like the most powerful remaining card for a mile, with everything behind her being interchangeable role players at best (and often even being interchangeable in practice in tournament results - Drown in the Loch is enjoying one hell of a heyday right now, but that card has perennially disappointed me a la Prismatic Ending and Portable Hole due to repeatedly failing when you want hard removal the most). ...OK, Brazen Borrower and Bonecrusher Giant have solid niches in Cascade decks, but Brazen Borrower's body often hasn't felt like it's worth a card, and Bonecrusher Giant has proven itself to be interchangeable (with stuff like Seasoned Pyromancer and Dead // Gone) even in Cascade decks.
I fear such emphasis on flavour in the promotional phase is hiding a lack of power and tournament impact in the release phase.
Did you really just use Throne of Eldraine as an example of a not powerful set. Because it's only got two cards banned in modern? I get that Modern Horizons 1/2 have changed expectations of how many cards a new set needs to feed into eternal formats, but come on.
Agree, and the way Prismatic Ending is being slandered here, you'd think Lightning Bolt was a bad card
In short, because of these such flavour-strong promotional vibes, I fear Kamigawa: Neon Dynasty will similarly not be a powerful set (I'd estimate Crimson Vow levels of not-powerful), at least when it comes to Modern and up. We only perceive Throne of Eldraine as powerful - and arguably, so does Wizards - because Oko, Thief of Crowns and Once Upon a Time are ban-worthy levels of jacked. Drop them from consideration and Emry, Lurker of the Loch feels like the most powerful remaining card for a mile, with everything behind her being interchangeable role players at best (and often even being interchangeable in practice in tournament results - Drown in the Loch is enjoying one hell of a heyday right now, but that card has perennially disappointed me a la Prismatic Ending and Portable Hole due to repeatedly failing when you want hard removal the most). ...OK, Brazen Borrower and Bonecrusher Giant have solid niches in Cascade decks, but Brazen Borrower's body often hasn't felt like it's worth a card, and Bonecrusher Giant has proven itself to be interchangeable (with stuff like Seasoned Pyromancer and Dead // Gone) even in Cascade decks.
I fear such emphasis on flavour in the promotional phase is hiding a lack of power and tournament impact in the release phase.
Did you really just use Throne of Eldraine as an example of a not powerful set. Because it's only got two cards banned in modern? I get that Modern Horizons 1/2 have changed expectations of how many cards a new set needs to feed into eternal formats, but come on.
Yes, I did. I remember not being able to believe Wizards's repeated statements that Throne of Eldraine was a powerful set.
I definitely cut out all the fringe cards from my Modern+ counts in my 2nd paragraph's sets, though (e.g. Mizzium Skin, Izzet Charm). I suspect their numbers would bloat to at least the 20s if I counted fringe cards.
And then there's the tricky topic of sets with massively bloated Modern+-play counts like Ikoria (Companion cards and Triomes are contributing) and Zendikar Rising (modal DFCs are contributing).
I have explained it a few times, but the gist of it is, I think this is way to "modern sci fi" compared to Kaladesh and old brothers war stuff because tis visually looks too "modern" compared to what we've seen in magic.
Even the old high tech stuff was still very much rooted in "fantasy" art direction. Kinda like how something like steampunk styles has stuff like air balloons and fairly high tech stuff (Like the old robot armies and Kaladesh vehicles etc), but again, it was all rooted in "fantasy" style. There's this tech threshold that they never go past.
The biker mice from mars I could kinda accept, because of vehhicles we've seen previously (even though the artwork here again looks very modern sci fi, and yes, even compared to the old stuff and fleetwheel cruisers and ***** like that) The whole art direction of the modern aspects are way too modern. I like what we've seen of the ancient stuff though, and the full art lands depicting old Kamigawa are some of my favourite lands they have ever made.
The DJ in particular is an absolutely terrible piece of artwork that doesn't blend the old and new meeting. It's a ******* dj standing with exo skeleton stuff on his body with ******* rope tying the fingers and plates together because "oh this will totally look like a nod to old school samurais" while he's ******* spinning hologram vinyl with pyro shooting out of his shoulders. In a club.
The rope between the exo skeleton fingers is the worst part of the whole thing to me. It just looks so dumb and lazy. So they have giant skyskraper cities holograms, electricity everywere and all types of *****, but you need rope for the fingers??? It's so dumb. I can't get over how bad that image is really. Looks like some loading screen for a fan made dota 2 skin or something. Terrible terrible terrible piece of art to showcase Magic.
I love sci fi stuff in general way more than fantasy stuff, but Magic to me is fantasy game and not futuristic and modern.
It's all highly subjective though, so I'm not saying other people can't like it or disagree, I just find the futuristic stuff way too modern (again, yes, even compared to old brothers war stuff. Very much so)
Again, fair enough, and I can even understand that the DJ art can be quite jarring (I would still argue that this is for me at least something conceivable for a cyberpunk setting on a world where samurai did and are factoring in, basically a style this DJ is using, but again, this is clearly all subjective).
What I still don't get is these arbitrary lines that some people draw when it comes to technology and modern day cultural influences appearing in fantasy. Fantasy is not defined as 'swords and arrows and absolute monarchies stuck in medieval eras where the fastest way to travel is via horses'. Kamigawa hasn't been replaced with 'cyberpunk japan' - world, it has developed like our world did as well, but still in its own way, caused by the fact that magic exists, that Kamis exist etc. It is still very much fantasy, just with modern (and fantastic) technology. There are countless worlds in the multiverse, and at least some HAVE to go through some kind of technological evolution over time. Kaladesh is in fact worse than Kamigawa in that regard, it might look a bit more fantastic because of the swirling patterns and aether being a fantastic resource, but ultimately it is in a quite extreme industrial revolution and its fantastic elements are so surpressed that natural mages were practically looked down upon by and removed from society until very recently. Kamigawa now looks a bit more similar to our world through cyberpunk trappings, but it has way more fantastic elements in it than Kaladesh in my opinion. So my question is still why this specifically is so fundamentally unpalatable for some people?
There's very much a line for me with a ******* dj spinning hologram vinyl in Magic (a game set in fantasy. Yes, even the old stuff and Kaladesh), but I doubt we'll ever agree on this. I'm not trying to sound snarky by the way, art is subjective so who cares either way nobody is right or wrong with this stuff, I just hope future sets don't get as high tech as this.
I have explained it a few times, but the gist of it is, I think this is way to "modern sci fi" compared to Kaladesh and old brothers war stuff because tis visually looks too "modern" compared to what we've seen in magic.
Even the old high tech stuff was still very much rooted in "fantasy" art direction. Kinda like how something like steampunk styles has stuff like air balloons and fairly high tech stuff (Like the old robot armies and Kaladesh vehicles etc), but again, it was all rooted in "fantasy" style. There's this tech threshold that they never go past.
The biker mice from mars I could kinda accept, because of vehhicles we've seen previously (even though the artwork here again looks very modern sci fi, and yes, even compared to the old stuff and fleetwheel cruisers and ***** like that) The whole art direction of the modern aspects are way too modern. I like what we've seen of the ancient stuff though, and the full art lands depicting old Kamigawa are some of my favourite lands they have ever made.
The DJ in particular is an absolutely terrible piece of artwork that doesn't blend the old and new meeting. It's a ******* dj standing with exo skeleton stuff on his body with ******* rope tying the fingers and plates together because "oh this will totally look like a nod to old school samurais" while he's ******* spinning hologram vinyl with pyro shooting out of his shoulders. In a club.
The rope between the exo skeleton fingers is the worst part of the whole thing to me. It just looks so dumb and lazy. So they have giant skyskraper cities holograms, electricity everywere and all types of *****, but you need rope for the fingers??? It's so dumb. I can't get over how bad that image is really. Looks like some loading screen for a fan made dota 2 skin or something. Terrible terrible terrible piece of art to showcase Magic.
I love sci fi stuff in general way more than fantasy stuff, but Magic to me is fantasy game and not futuristic and modern.
It's all highly subjective though, so I'm not saying other people can't like it or disagree, I just find the futuristic stuff way too modern (again, yes, even compared to old brothers war stuff. Very much so)
Again, fair enough, and I can even understand that the DJ art can be quite jarring (I would still argue that this is for me at least something conceivable for a cyberpunk setting on a world where samurai did and are factoring in, basically a style this DJ is using, but again, this is clearly all subjective).
What I still don't get is these arbitrary lines that some people draw when it comes to technology and modern day cultural influences appearing in fantasy. Fantasy is not defined as 'swords and arrows and absolute monarchies stuck in medieval eras where the fastest way to travel is via horses'. Kamigawa hasn't been replaced with 'cyberpunk japan' - world, it has developed like our world did as well, but still in its own way, caused by the fact that magic exists, that Kamis exist etc. It is still very much fantasy, just with modern (and fantastic) technology. There are countless worlds in the multiverse, and at least some HAVE to go through some kind of technological evolution over time. Kaladesh is in fact worse than Kamigawa in that regard, it might look a bit more fantastic because of the swirling patterns and aether being a fantastic resource, but ultimately it is in a quite extreme industrial revolution and its fantastic elements are so surpressed that natural mages were practically looked down upon by and removed from society until very recently. Kamigawa now looks a bit more similar to our world through cyberpunk trappings, but it has way more fantastic elements in it than Kaladesh in my opinion. So my question is still why this specifically is so fundamentally unpalatable for some people?
There's very much a line for me with a ******* dj spinning hologram vinyl in Magic (a game set in fantasy. Yes, even the old stuff and Kaladesh), but I doubt we'll ever agree on this. I'm not trying to sound snarky by the way, art is subjective so who cares either way nobody is right or wrong with this stuff, I just hope future sets don't get as high tech as this.
Well, the good thing is that Magic is one of the few settings were there are always other worlds and scenarios. Since I am not the biggest fan of standard high fantasy (absolute monarchy being often portrayed as a great thing already puts me off somewhat, but that's another matter entirely), I may be much more open to the lines being blurred, to see new scenarios created from mixing tech with magic and modern societal trappings in fantasy worlds. Kaladesh, Ravnica, Kamigawa, Strixhaven, even Innistrad, Dominaria and New Phyrexia in some aspects are all more or less farther towards modernity on the "modern society/technology" scale than the likes of Eldraine, Bant, Theros, Amonkhet, Dominaria in other aspects etc. I for one hope for a vast variety in the future too and that includes further high-tech planes, but ALSO very primitive ones (Muraganda or some other prehistoric set would also be welcome in the future). I appreciate Eldraine and Bant, but if every set would be about knights and kingoms I would be bored out of my mind. The variety is what drew me to Magic in the first place (during OG Kamigawa no less).
What's the point of the jet expelling exoskeleton? What's it's purpose? Is she/he going to go anime boxing tournament after the futuristic rave? What do those toy extending fists do that help this person play Caramel Dansen?
Otawara modernized is something I am not sure about. I was hoping it would remain one of the more traditional regions of Kamigawa. The new version looks great though. Perhaps Minamo will remain more traditional. Soratami embracing advancement seems on theme after all. We'll see. I love the other cities. Jukai/Okina must be the Kyoto analog.
What's the point of the jet expelling exoskeleton? What's it's purpose? Is she/he going to go anime boxing tournament after the futuristic rave? What do those toy extending fists do that help this person play Caramel Dansen?
I think it's pretty much all some form of extravagant decoration.
Also quite understandable, though I have to say that it is still clearly not just a normal turntable, not only because of the holograms but also the fires coming out of it (might also be the reason for the exoskeleton, for handling that instrument? That one might also just be 'for style' though. ) I mean, we have seen harps and other instruments that barely look different from their real-life counterparts and don't show as obvious magical influences. Why is that not also skirting too close? And yeah the headphones could have been made a bit more detailed and ornated or perhaps free floating to distinguish them as a bit more 'magical', but the underlying technology of them doesn't really have many ways to look (basically being loudspeakers covering your ears). This is a world that DID undergo many of the technological advances of our world (TVs are also mentioned). Think Legend of Korra where most technology is pretty much our technology, just that the electricity comes from a magical source. That's what we are dealing with here too. I still think the underlying question is why old technology in fantasy (like swords, harps and other instruments, catapults etc.) are ok if they look exactly like their real world counterparts, but modern tech has to be almost smothered in fantasy trappings to look palatable. That's what I can't quite wrap my head around.
I don't think the problem is the technolgy-driven structure of this set, as other have said before, we already had "hi-tech" planes before. The matter, for me at least, is that this set, this picture in particular, feels out of place with the general MTG world. I'll try to explain myself better; take two futuristic narrative universes like Star Wars and Dune, while they are both technologically advanced, each in its own way, a laser DJ would feel out of place in Dune but not so much in Star Wars. In the same way the robots of Kaladesh or the Thran tecnology feel adequate and fitting in the MTG world, while this DJ, imho, doesn't make the cut, it feels childish and stupid in the context of MTG.
Also quite understandable, though I have to say that it is still clearly not just a normal turntable, not only because of the holograms but also the fires coming out of it (might also be the reason for the exoskeleton, for handling that instrument? That one might also just be 'for style' though. ) I mean, we have seen harps and other instruments that barely look different from their real-life counterparts and don't show as obvious magical influences. Why is that not also skirting too close? And yeah the headphones could have been made a bit more detailed and ornated or perhaps free floating to distinguish them as a bit more 'magical', but the underlying technology of them doesn't really have many ways to look (basically being loudspeakers covering your ears). This is a world that DID undergo many of the technological advances of our world (TVs are also mentioned). Think Legend of Korra where most technology is pretty much our technology, just that the electricity comes from a magical source. That's what we are dealing with here too. I still think the underlying question is why old technology in fantasy (like swords, harps and other instruments, catapults etc.) are ok if they look exactly like their real world counterparts, but modern tech has to be almost smothered in fantasy trappings to look palatable. That's what I can't quite wrap my head around.
I don't think the problem is the technolgy-driven structure of this set, as other have said before, we already had "hi-tech" planes before. The matter, for me at least, is that this set, this picture in particular, feels out of place with the general MTG world. I'll try to explain myself better; take two futuristic narrative universes like Star Wars and Dune, while they are both technologically advanced, each in its own way, a laser DJ would feel out of place in Dune but not so much in Star Wars. In the same way the robots of Kaladesh or the Thran tecnology feel adequate and fitting in the MTG world, while this DJ, imho, doesn't make the cut, it feels childish and stupid in the context of MTG.
But then why? In Dune lasers are rarely used anyway because of their interactions with the shield technology, and the focus is firmly on massive political plots and/or non-urban regions. But no one can tell me that DJs (or an equivalent job) don't exist at all in the Dune universe. So it must be instead the focus on it that feels wrong. This set is about cyberpunk though, a very deeply urban genre, as well as about the dichotomy of tradition vs progress. So the focus on something so urban and modern as a DJ doesn't strike me as odd or unfitting, but simply following through on that theme, same goes for motor bikes, computer, cyborgs (which most people would find extremely out of place in fantasy settings, but they were part of MtG since its beginning basically)... The line still feels arbitrary. In a multiverse with endless possibilities, where invasive cyborg viruses can potentially battle against lovecraftian horrors, where space-faring civilisations encounter almost almighty wizards from other planes of existence a DJ is somehow too much? Oh well, I will probably not get a satisfying answer to this. As long as it doesn't contradict anything, and doesn't feel totally out of place (which it would on say Ravnica or Ixalan but not on a cyberpunk world) I fail to see the problem. Stupid and childish are subjective terms here (especially since we so far only have the artwork without any background explanation).
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I always felt that the Kitsune faces in the original were all almost impossible to differentiate from each other. I prefer the newer version. And that's most certainly not a Kappa, but an Akki, a goblin from Kamigawa, which ironically were modelled after Kappas in the original Kamigawa block (while still implying that there were actual Kappas once). I could see them having the Orochi lose their legs to change them from Snakes to Naga (which I wouldn't be in favor of, but oh well). The reason for that change could be anything, it has been a while after all since the Kami War.
I disagree and I have explained a few times why the futuristic art style in this is way too sci fi, and that's coming from somebody who's favourite plane in terms of art direction is Kaladesh (the most "high tech" plane we've previously seen).
The DJ ***** is just too much for me. It looks ******* ridiculous to me.
You are of course entitled to your own opinion, but quite frankly, you haven't really explained why exactly you find this too sci-fi. Is it the notion that fantasy worlds should never have technology beyond medieval (or earlier) era one? That always raised the question for me, why that particular limit? It is not like this is a purely sci-fi world now, it is still a fantasy world with Kami and Magic, but also with technology, some of which adapting to the fantasy elements and vice versa. Swords, catapults, architecture, musical instruments, all that already requires technology. Why is that ok in a fantasy world, but anything beyond that is not?
To specifically defend this DJ art: If you have computers and the ability to save and manipulate music on some form of medium, someone is bound to come up with such an idea. It is just as 'legitimate' as robot drones and giant hologram cities are. Sure, if you hate that already I get it. But I personally see no deeper problem with it.
Even the old high tech stuff was still very much rooted in "fantasy" art direction. Kinda like how something like steampunk styles has stuff like air balloons and fairly high tech stuff (Like the old robot armies and Kaladesh vehicles etc), but again, it was all rooted in "fantasy" style. There's this tech threshold that they never go past.
The biker mice from mars I could kinda accept, because of vehhicles we've seen previously (even though the artwork here again looks very modern sci fi, and yes, even compared to the old stuff and fleetwheel cruisers and ***** like that) The whole art direction of the modern aspects are way too modern. I like what we've seen of the ancient stuff though, and the full art lands depicting old Kamigawa are some of my favourite lands they have ever made.
The DJ in particular is an absolutely terrible piece of artwork that doesn't blend the old and new meeting. It's a ******* dj standing with exo skeleton stuff on his body with ******* rope tying the fingers and plates together because "oh this will totally look like a nod to old school samurais" while he's ******* spinning hologram vinyl with pyro shooting out of his shoulders. In a club.
The rope between the exo skeleton fingers is the worst part of the whole thing to me. It just looks so dumb and lazy. So they have giant skyskraper cities holograms, electricity everywere and all types of *****, but you need rope for the fingers??? It's so dumb. I can't get over how bad that image is really. Looks like some loading screen for a fan made dota 2 skin or something. Terrible terrible terrible piece of art to showcase Magic.
I love sci fi stuff in general way more than fantasy stuff, but Magic to me is fantasy game and not futuristic and modern.
It's all highly subjective though, so I'm not saying other people can't like it or disagree, I just find the futuristic stuff way too modern (again, yes, even compared to old brothers war stuff. Very much so)
By kappas, I mean the upright turtle seen in the theme boosters in https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/the-rumor-mill/speculation/824856-kamigawa-neon-dynasty-theme-boosters.
And a casual glance at every creature card with the "Fox" creature type in Gatherer and filtering for only kitsune reveals they had different fur colours (at least white and yellow, one even looks kinda blue), different facial markings, and even different facial hair. Looks like we're losing at least different fur colours in Neon Dynasty.
Are you getting that from just the one piece of art? We have one hard-to-see card and one piece of art depicting kitsune. I think we're getting a little ahead of ourselves in extrapolating what the tribe as a whole looks like in the set.
I'd be fine if this is Crimson Vow power level. Both Innistrad sets seem just about right for Standard.
The concept art outright says that "Kitsune...are white with red fur markings." I think extrapolating from that Wizards statement is reasonable.
I'd be glad to see at least one yellow throwback kitsune with no fur markings.
Crimson Vow's power level was one of the lowest I've seen yet Modern-wise - 1-2 cards from it half-heartedly made it into maindecks and even got interchangeably kicked in and out over the course of days and weeks (Wandering Mind and Blood Fountain are the ones that significantly rotated in and out; I only saw Cemetery Illuminator and Cemetery Gatekeeper once or twice). End the Festivities made it into Legacy sideboards pretty solidly, but that was a given since it's strictly better than cards that did its job like Blazing Volley.
It's a bad sign for me when I lose interest in playing Magic: the Gathering (admittedly on Cockatrice against myself right now) and start swapping to other games while I wait for a new set.
I admit it does remind me of a child's book I had when I was young. "Duke Toad, rollin' down the road, in his shiny new motorcycle!" Rats and toads are like same thing with different skin in a way.
My bad man, honestly didn't see the blurb about the markings. Power level though, still disagree. It seems not that long ago when the question for each standard set was "are there cards in this set that could see eternal play." Now it seems like it's a given that every set will have new modern+ cards and the question just becomes "how many"? Maybe that's a misconception, but it certainly feels that way.
Again, fair enough, and I can even understand that the DJ art can be quite jarring (I would still argue that this is for me at least something conceivable for a cyberpunk setting on a world where samurai did and are factoring in, basically a style this DJ is using, but again, this is clearly all subjective).
What I still don't get is these arbitrary lines that some people draw when it comes to technology and modern day cultural influences appearing in fantasy. Fantasy is not defined as 'swords and arrows and absolute monarchies stuck in medieval eras where the fastest way to travel is via horses'. Kamigawa hasn't been replaced with 'cyberpunk japan' - world, it has developed like our world did as well, but still in its own way, caused by the fact that magic exists, that Kamis exist etc. It is still very much fantasy, just with modern (and fantastic) technology. There are countless worlds in the multiverse, and at least some HAVE to go through some kind of technological evolution over time. Kaladesh is in fact worse than Kamigawa in that regard, it might look a bit more fantastic because of the swirling patterns and aether being a fantastic resource, but ultimately it is in a quite extreme industrial revolution and its fantastic elements are so surpressed that natural mages were practically looked down upon by and removed from society until very recently. Kamigawa now looks a bit more similar to our world through cyberpunk trappings, but it has way more fantastic elements in it than Kaladesh in my opinion. So my question is still why this specifically is so fundamentally unpalatable for some people?
I personally don't think it's necessarily the tech level itself. DJs seem perfectly fine in a setting like kamigawa or kaladesh. But the issue I have with the artwork is that it looks too much like the real world. He's not operating some fantastic music instrument, he's literally using a turntable. And his headphones look like something you can actually buy at the store. It's too close to the real world. Remove the weird exoskeleton (that serves no purpose as far as I can tell, why does a DJ need an exosuit?) and it looks like art for a game set in modern times.
In fact my first reaction when I saw the artwork was that it's either a crossover (like from the fortnite set) or an un-set artwork.
There's a way to have "modern technology" in a fantasy setting without falling into the uncanny art valley.
The nezumi biker for example? I don't mind that. The fact that the wheels are actually magic energy whatevers instead of wheels removes it far enough away from the real world. Truth be told a bike is basic enough (it's just an engine with wheels and a seat on top) that I probably wouldn't even mind one in a setting like kaladesh or kamigawa either, even if it's mostly mechanical (with a magic fueled engine).
Also quite understandable, though I have to say that it is still clearly not just a normal turntable, not only because of the holograms but also the fires coming out of it (might also be the reason for the exoskeleton, for handling that instrument? That one might also just be 'for style' though. ) I mean, we have seen harps and other instruments that barely look different from their real-life counterparts and don't show as obvious magical influences. Why is that not also skirting too close? And yeah the headphones could have been made a bit more detailed and ornated or perhaps free floating to distinguish them as a bit more 'magical', but the underlying technology of them doesn't really have many ways to look (basically being loudspeakers covering your ears). This is a world that DID undergo many of the technological advances of our world (TVs are also mentioned). Think Legend of Korra where most technology is pretty much our technology, just that the electricity comes from a magical source. That's what we are dealing with here too. I still think the underlying question is why old technology in fantasy (like swords, harps and other instruments, catapults etc.) are ok if they look exactly like their real world counterparts, but modern tech has to be almost smothered in fantasy trappings to look palatable. That's what I can't quite wrap my head around.
Did you really just use Throne of Eldraine as an example of a not powerful set. Because it's only got two cards banned in modern? I get that Modern Horizons 1/2 have changed expectations of how many cards a new set needs to feed into eternal formats, but come on.
Agree, and the way Prismatic Ending is being slandered here, you'd think Lightning Bolt was a bad card
Yes, I did. I remember not being able to believe Wizards's repeated statements that Throne of Eldraine was a powerful set.
I'm more used to the Modern+ feed rate of sets like Return to Ravnica (at least 12 cards saw fairly solid play: Ethereal Armor, Rest in Peace, Abrupt Decay, Counterflux, Detention Sphere, Firemind's Foresight, Goblin Electromancer, Izzet Staticaster, Slaughter Games, Sphinx's Revelation, Supreme Verdict, Deathrite Shaman) and Ravnica Allegiance (at least 9 cards saw somewhat solid play: Benthic Biomancer, Electrodominance, Light Up the Stage, Skewer the Critics, Cindervines, Deputy of Detention, Growth Spiral, Kaya, Orzhov Usurper, Lavinia, Azorius Renegade).
Admittedly, Throne of Eldraine does look somewhat like Ixalan at least gut feeling-wise (at least 12 cards saw at least fringe play or up in Modern+: Settle the Wreckage, Tocatli Honor Guard, Chart a Course, Dive Down, Entrancing Melody, Kitesail Freebooter, Rampaging Ferocidon, Carnage Tyrant, Kumena's Speaker, Shapers' Sanctuary, Hostage Taker, Search for Azcanta, Sorcerous Spyglass). By that same, more generous standard, I'd say at least 41 cards from Throne of Eldraine saw at least fringe play or up in Modern+: Oko, Thief of Crowns, Once Upon a Time, Emry, Lurker of the Loch, All That Glitters, Charming Prince, Deafening Silence, Giant Killer, Brazen Borrower, Bonecrusher Giant, Hushbringer, Corridor Monitor, Into the Story, Merfolk Secretkeeper, Drown in the Loch, Mystical Dispute, Claim the Firstborn, Witching Well, Cauldron Familiar, Murderous Rider, Wishclaw Talisman, Irencrag Feat, Fires of Invention, Embercleave, Merchant of the Vale, Feasting Troll King, Gilded Goose, Questing Beast, Trail of Crumbs, Escape to the Wilds, Grumgully, the Generous, The Royal Scions, Gingerbrute, Stonecoil Serpent, Witch's Oven, all 5 Castle cards, Dwarven Mine, and Mystic Sanctuary. ...OK, that's more than I thought, and I should have remembered that Mystic Sanctuary is ban-worthy good.
I definitely cut out all the fringe cards from my Modern+ counts in my 2nd paragraph's sets, though (e.g. Mizzium Skin, Izzet Charm). I suspect their numbers would bloat to at least the 20s if I counted fringe cards.
And then there's the tricky topic of sets with massively bloated Modern+-play counts like Ikoria (Companion cards and Triomes are contributing) and Zendikar Rising (modal DFCs are contributing).
There's very much a line for me with a ******* dj spinning hologram vinyl in Magic (a game set in fantasy. Yes, even the old stuff and Kaladesh), but I doubt we'll ever agree on this. I'm not trying to sound snarky by the way, art is subjective so who cares either way nobody is right or wrong with this stuff, I just hope future sets don't get as high tech as this.
Well, the good thing is that Magic is one of the few settings were there are always other worlds and scenarios. Since I am not the biggest fan of standard high fantasy (absolute monarchy being often portrayed as a great thing already puts me off somewhat, but that's another matter entirely), I may be much more open to the lines being blurred, to see new scenarios created from mixing tech with magic and modern societal trappings in fantasy worlds. Kaladesh, Ravnica, Kamigawa, Strixhaven, even Innistrad, Dominaria and New Phyrexia in some aspects are all more or less farther towards modernity on the "modern society/technology" scale than the likes of Eldraine, Bant, Theros, Amonkhet, Dominaria in other aspects etc. I for one hope for a vast variety in the future too and that includes further high-tech planes, but ALSO very primitive ones (Muraganda or some other prehistoric set would also be welcome in the future). I appreciate Eldraine and Bant, but if every set would be about knights and kingoms I would be bored out of my mind. The variety is what drew me to Magic in the first place (during OG Kamigawa no less).
What's the point of the jet expelling exoskeleton? What's it's purpose? Is she/he going to go anime boxing tournament after the futuristic rave? What do those toy extending fists do that help this person play Caramel Dansen?
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
I think it's pretty much all some form of extravagant decoration.
I don't think the problem is the technolgy-driven structure of this set, as other have said before, we already had "hi-tech" planes before. The matter, for me at least, is that this set, this picture in particular, feels out of place with the general MTG world. I'll try to explain myself better; take two futuristic narrative universes like Star Wars and Dune, while they are both technologically advanced, each in its own way, a laser DJ would feel out of place in Dune but not so much in Star Wars. In the same way the robots of Kaladesh or the Thran tecnology feel adequate and fitting in the MTG world, while this DJ, imho, doesn't make the cut, it feels childish and stupid in the context of MTG.
But then why? In Dune lasers are rarely used anyway because of their interactions with the shield technology, and the focus is firmly on massive political plots and/or non-urban regions. But no one can tell me that DJs (or an equivalent job) don't exist at all in the Dune universe. So it must be instead the focus on it that feels wrong. This set is about cyberpunk though, a very deeply urban genre, as well as about the dichotomy of tradition vs progress. So the focus on something so urban and modern as a DJ doesn't strike me as odd or unfitting, but simply following through on that theme, same goes for motor bikes, computer, cyborgs (which most people would find extremely out of place in fantasy settings, but they were part of MtG since its beginning basically)... The line still feels arbitrary. In a multiverse with endless possibilities, where invasive cyborg viruses can potentially battle against lovecraftian horrors, where space-faring civilisations encounter almost almighty wizards from other planes of existence a DJ is somehow too much? Oh well, I will probably not get a satisfying answer to this. As long as it doesn't contradict anything, and doesn't feel totally out of place (which it would on say Ravnica or Ixalan but not on a cyberpunk world) I fail to see the problem. Stupid and childish are subjective terms here (especially since we so far only have the artwork without any background explanation).