I think Runo is perfect flavor of the priest summoning his eldritch sea god.
Is it though? I think transform cards that show a character not actually transforming, like Jerren, Corrupted Bishop and Ludevic, Necrogenius are piss-poor executions of the transform mechanic.
And actually pretty confusing at times, like with Ludevic and Oglaf, where it's not clear it's not an actual transformation.
Given that Runo worships the seas and its monsters as fervently as you do, Tiro, I don't think it's incoherent. Not your style, absolutely, but not incoherent. You might just have to face facts that the Gothic/Eldritch Horror Plane isn't a terribly good fit for your "wonders of the deep" type flavor.
It's not Runo's card specifically that is incoherent. It's the fact that it pulls sea monster strategies apart in different directions, which as a tribe are incoherent and poorly supported. It's one thing to take a tribe such as Dragons for example, which have a plethora of cards no single EDH deck has room to entirely encompass, and diversify its focus.
Sea monsters require an objective besides bricking with opening hands of 6+ drop creatures. Runo removes green, the only recourse beyond a single card (Quest) sea monsters have to casting anything, and late game at that. And losing ramp for what? Generating token copies of creatures that can hardly be cast or played in the first place?
Support for this tribe would be something like a Blue/Black/Green Gishath that cheats out sea monsters, uniting the tribe in three colors and alleviating the glacial pace of their lacking field presence. Not a Vampire general that must be flipped to create token copies of non or barely existent creatures. Besides, we already have Spawning Kraken for token strategies. The tribe's deficiencies are not being addressed and worse - they're not actually receiving anything viable as the deck is pulled in chaotic directions.
I agree that removing green negates the ramping that helps get sea monsters out in the first place, but black can make it so you don't need that ramp to begin with. Reanimation or Rituals can be used to get out the beefy lads. And you have the ability to keep bringing them back.
You mentioned Gishath, and while Gishath is certainly helpful at getting a board presence out, it doesn't actually interact with the main mechanic of dinosaurs. It alleviates a weakness, but doesn't actually play into the full direction the deck wants to go.
As for addressing their deficiencies...that might be an unfortunate side effect of the monstrous part. Unless you want more Segovian Leviathans, of course.
I think at the end of the day, the issue is going to be that the only thing that really unites those four creature types are those four creatures types. There's no mechanical unity between them. They're just large lads lurking in lakes, super-sized sons swimming in surf. The only connecting factor is mana cost, and I don't think we want a repeat of Scourge.
I'm not saying you can't or shouldn't be disappointed, either. It's your passion, I get it. Just trying to look at it from a different angle.
I think Runo is perfect flavor of the priest summoning his eldritch sea god.
Is it though? I think transform cards that show a character not actually transforming, like Jerren, Corrupted Bishop and Ludevic, Necrogenius are piss-poor executions of the transform mechanic.
And actually pretty confusing at times, like with Ludevic and Oglaf, where it's not clear it's not an actual transformation.
I would except Runo to summon his sea god in some form (since thats the biggest thing about him) and so I think a DFC ,while fails in a way as a *transfrom* card, give more space instead of a token and is more flashy than just general sea monster tribal support.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Ha! Maro just claimed the vampires would only be in mardu colors
Any way at last we got Runo stormkirk and the flip side……
my lord… tiro is gonna yell so loud we will hear it no matter where we are because we finally have are sea monster tribal legend
Is it though? I can't even use this card in my Thrasios/Arixmethes deck, and if I use Runo as a general, I wouldn't be able to include Arixmethes, which is completely unacceptable.
Let me get this straight you have been begging f9r years and years for a sea monster tribal legend we finally get it (also easy to flip to the tribal side.)
AND YOU HATE IT ALL BECAUSE ITS MISSING G!
besides the flip side is easily based on the Cthulhu
and this color pairing is more fitting for sea monsters
I agree that removing green negates the ramping that helps get sea monsters out in the first place, but black can make it so you don't need that ramp to begin with. Reanimation or Rituals can be used to get out the beefy lads. And you have the ability to keep bringing them back.
You mentioned Gishath, and while Gishath is certainly helpful at getting a board presence out, it doesn't actually interact with the main mechanic of dinosaurs. It alleviates a weakness, but doesn't actually play into the full direction the deck wants to go.
As for addressing their deficiencies...that might be an unfortunate side effect of the monstrous part. Unless you want more Segovian Leviathans, of course.
I think at the end of the day, the issue is going to be that the only thing that really unites those four creature types are those four creatures types. There's no mechanical unity between them. They're just large lads lurking in lakes, super-sized sons swimming in surf. The only connecting factor is mana cost, and I don't think we want a repeat of Scourge.
I'm not saying you can't or shouldn't be disappointed, either. It's your passion, I get it. Just trying to look at it from a different angle.
There are small versions of other monsters. Baby versions, eggs, methods to cheat them into play, casting cost reductions, mana generation/ramp for tribal casting (or Savage Ventmaw), general tribal synergies etc. It's only with sea monsters that people seem to throw their hands up and say "welp, these need to be 6+ CMC bricking cards that can only ever be cast." Generally diversifying a deck with minimal support just fractures its focus so that it's even less coherent in more than one manner, yet deficient in many more.
Dragons for example have a multitude of options and different approaches, and support for all those strategies to be viable. Yet they're large flying monsters and manage to be a competent deck across multiple color combinations, including 5 color.
Anyhow, it's not for me, but fans who wanted the character carded may now rejoice. I'm at a point where I pass on products that don't interest me and purchase the few that do these days. Quality in many regards has slipped. We'll see if Cosper Lowe finally appears, perhaps the last possible thread of interest I have for this set. Following three visits to Innistrad, and provided his lore, this really should be where he finally appears. If not, saves me a dime or two.
I like it when tribes are given different (colour) options that force you to make a choice when building a deck. Imo Wizards has been pampering EDH players way too much by always giving them exactly what they want. It stifles creativity.
If you really like a tribe so much, you should be able (and honestly, excited) to find multiple ways to make it work and not just jam everything into the same deck.
As for the card itself, I'm not that hot on it too.
Art-wise, the "beefy man body with some tentacle attachments" type of Cthulu creature has always been yawn-inducing to me. I refuse to be wowed by it, it just looks goofy 90% of the time. The flavor of the cultist summoning eldritch monsters from the deep is fine I guess, but it's just so ... basic. It's the straightest and most boring execution of the trope. They probably did this to prevent another Ludevic situation, but I wish they had just thrown us even the slightest curveball. Did the back half really have to be sea monster tribal? Play into the insanity aspect of eldritch horror and give it some creative and new discard or mill abilities, maybe...
Also no matter how strong the abilities are, an Eldritch Horror being 3/5 just feels kind of pathetic.
You mentioned Gishath, and while Gishath is certainly helpful at getting a board presence out, it doesn't actually interact with the main mechanic of dinosaurs. It alleviates a weakness, but doesn't actually play into the full direction the deck wants to go.
Thank god Gishath isn't a "main mechanic" commander! Enrage sucks balls! And i assure you it totally plays into the full direction dinosaurs want to go. Otherwise people would just play Zacama.
I like it when tribes are given different (colour) options that force you to make a choice when building a deck. Imo Wizards has been pampering EDH players way too much by always giving them exactly what they want. It stifles creativity.
If you really like a tribe so much, you should be able (and honestly, excited) to find multiple ways to make it work and not just jam everything into the same deck.
Yeah, after wizard printing like 3 pentacolor commanders for every strategy, printing a sultai sea monster would totally spoil EDH players.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
You mentioned Gishath, and while Gishath is certainly helpful at getting a board presence out, it doesn't actually interact with the main mechanic of dinosaurs. It alleviates a weakness, but doesn't actually play into the full direction the deck wants to go.
Thank god Gishath isn't a "main mechanic" commander! Enrage sucks balls! And i assure you it totally plays into the full direction dinosaurs want to go. Otherwise people would just play Zacama.
I like it when tribes are given different (colour) options that force you to make a choice when building a deck. Imo Wizards has been pampering EDH players way too much by always giving them exactly what they want. It stifles creativity.
If you really like a tribe so much, you should be able (and honestly, excited) to find multiple ways to make it work and not just jam everything into the same deck.
Yeah, after wizard printing like 3 pentacolor commanders for every strategy, printing a sultai sea monster would totally spoil EDH players.
A dragon in D&D got enrage it’s not a dinosaur exclusive mechanic anymore
What a strange card.
This either belongs in a sub-par Mimeoplasm sea monsters build, or gets tested in a standard deck full of changelings before being abandoned and forgotten about.
Edit:
@ThyLordQ: Simic Sky Swallower can flip this but doesn't synergize because it can't even be targeted on the attack
hrm....a lot of hoops to jump through to transform this creature. You'd better be sure.
WHAT?!? THERES 64 OUT OF 86 AVAILABLE SEA MONSTERS TO FLIP IT ITS A VERY EASY FLIP!
Settle down. I did not say I hated the card or that the card was bad. All I said was "you had better be sure" because not all decks have creatures at mana value 6. On its face it is still in a relevant tribe, has 4 toughness, and flying for only 3 mana--that is good value.
What a strange card.
This either belongs in a sub-par Mimeoplasm sea monsters build, or gets tested in a standard deck full of changelings before being abandoned and forgotten about.
Edit:
@ThyLordQ: Simic Sky Swallower can flip this but doesn't synergize because it can't even be targeted on the attack
I like this card but I feel it lacks enablers. We have River Serpent and Stripped Riverwinder as cards that are big, don't clog your hand, and benefit from the tribal. Two tokens of those instead of one? Sure I guess that's good. I'd almost prefer Waker of Waves tokens though.
Sure, there is a chance of spending $4 on a booster and getting the Mythic Rare $30 super card. There is also a chance of surviving putting your tongue in a light socket.
I can't imagine if it even... had synergy with the tribe?! Oh dear, perish the thought.
The synergies aren't that bad... It is actually pretty synergic with, for example, tidal kraken, one of the first and most iconic sea monsters that are sadly almost worthless in commander.
However, the fact that you have to jump through hoops with the vampire side to actually get something meaningful and the fact is not sultai is still bad for such an underdeveloped tribe.
This card could have been really good in sultai and with only the monster half.
Sadly they had to push the vampire because actual legendary spots were already taken by frogs and slugs, apparently.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
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Is it though? I think transform cards that show a character not actually transforming, like Jerren, Corrupted Bishop and Ludevic, Necrogenius are piss-poor executions of the transform mechanic.
And actually pretty confusing at times, like with Ludevic and Oglaf, where it's not clear it's not an actual transformation.
Sea monsters require an objective besides bricking with opening hands of 6+ drop creatures. Runo removes green, the only recourse beyond a single card (Quest) sea monsters have to casting anything, and late game at that. And losing ramp for what? Generating token copies of creatures that can hardly be cast or played in the first place?
Support for this tribe would be something like a Blue/Black/Green Gishath that cheats out sea monsters, uniting the tribe in three colors and alleviating the glacial pace of their lacking field presence. Not a Vampire general that must be flipped to create token copies of non or barely existent creatures. Besides, we already have Spawning Kraken for token strategies. The tribe's deficiencies are not being addressed and worse - they're not actually receiving anything viable as the deck is pulled in chaotic directions.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
You mentioned Gishath, and while Gishath is certainly helpful at getting a board presence out, it doesn't actually interact with the main mechanic of dinosaurs. It alleviates a weakness, but doesn't actually play into the full direction the deck wants to go.
As for addressing their deficiencies...that might be an unfortunate side effect of the monstrous part. Unless you want more Segovian Leviathans, of course.
I think at the end of the day, the issue is going to be that the only thing that really unites those four creature types are those four creatures types. There's no mechanical unity between them. They're just large lads lurking in lakes, super-sized sons swimming in surf. The only connecting factor is mana cost, and I don't think we want a repeat of Scourge.
I'm not saying you can't or shouldn't be disappointed, either. It's your passion, I get it. Just trying to look at it from a different angle.
I would except Runo to summon his sea god in some form (since thats the biggest thing about him) and so I think a DFC ,while fails in a way as a *transfrom* card, give more space instead of a token and is more flashy than just general sea monster tribal support.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
I concur. Why not differentiate the tribe a bit? I for one am happy it isn’t sultai or yet another simic sea monster.
The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
Dragons for example have a multitude of options and different approaches, and support for all those strategies to be viable. Yet they're large flying monsters and manage to be a competent deck across multiple color combinations, including 5 color.
Anyhow, it's not for me, but fans who wanted the character carded may now rejoice. I'm at a point where I pass on products that don't interest me and purchase the few that do these days. Quality in many regards has slipped. We'll see if Cosper Lowe finally appears, perhaps the last possible thread of interest I have for this set. Following three visits to Innistrad, and provided his lore, this really should be where he finally appears. If not, saves me a dime or two.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
If you really like a tribe so much, you should be able (and honestly, excited) to find multiple ways to make it work and not just jam everything into the same deck.
As for the card itself, I'm not that hot on it too.
Art-wise, the "beefy man body with some tentacle attachments" type of Cthulu creature has always been yawn-inducing to me. I refuse to be wowed by it, it just looks goofy 90% of the time. The flavor of the cultist summoning eldritch monsters from the deep is fine I guess, but it's just so ... basic. It's the straightest and most boring execution of the trope. They probably did this to prevent another Ludevic situation, but I wish they had just thrown us even the slightest curveball. Did the back half really have to be sea monster tribal? Play into the insanity aspect of eldritch horror and give it some creative and new discard or mill abilities, maybe...
Also no matter how strong the abilities are, an Eldritch Horror being 3/5 just feels kind of pathetic.
WHAT?!? THERES 64 OUT OF 86 AVAILABLE SEA MONSTERS TO FLIP IT ITS A VERY EASY FLIP!
Thank god Gishath isn't a "main mechanic" commander! Enrage sucks balls! And i assure you it totally plays into the full direction dinosaurs want to go. Otherwise people would just play Zacama.
Yeah, after wizard printing like 3 pentacolor commanders for every strategy, printing a sultai sea monster would totally spoil EDH players.
A dragon in D&D got enrage it’s not a dinosaur exclusive mechanic anymore
This either belongs in a sub-par Mimeoplasm sea monsters build, or gets tested in a standard deck full of changelings before being abandoned and forgotten about.
Edit:
@ThyLordQ: Simic Sky Swallower can flip this but doesn't synergize because it can't even be targeted on the attack
I used to be a demigod, but now I'm an omnimage
Settle down. I did not say I hated the card or that the card was bad. All I said was "you had better be sure" because not all decks have creatures at mana value 6. On its face it is still in a relevant tribe, has 4 toughness, and flying for only 3 mana--that is good value.
I'm aware. I even said as much in my list post.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
The synergies aren't that bad... It is actually pretty synergic with, for example, tidal kraken, one of the first and most iconic sea monsters that are sadly almost worthless in commander.
However, the fact that you have to jump through hoops with the vampire side to actually get something meaningful and the fact is not sultai is still bad for such an underdeveloped tribe.
This card could have been really good in sultai and with only the monster half.
Sadly they had to push the vampire because actual legendary spots were already taken by frogs and slugs, apparently.