According to one of my friends at my locals, the cEDH community didn't take the recent ban on Golos, Tireless Pilgrim too lightly as someone just started an online petition to convince the EDH Rules Committee to unban Golos for EDH / Commander claiming that their recent bans / unbans as of late proves that they're completely out of touch with the format. There was already speculation that the EDH Rules Committee was pushing for the cEDH community to create their own separate ban list for cEDH instead of following the traditional ban list for EDH / Commander back when Hullbreacher got banned from the format because it was more of a linchpin card for the competitive side of the format compared to casual where it was more oppressive. If you've seen that one Game Knights episode where Cassius Marsh pressured Josh Lee Kwai into casting Deflecting Swat to save the playgroup from Hullbreacher then you know what I'm talking about. Cassius tried to deny everyone cards by casting Timetwister with Hullbreacher to net Treasure tokens.
Look. We all need to come to terms that the EDH Rules Committee are stuck in their own bubble as they don't care If their decisions are relevant to the vast majority of players let alone the financial / time ramifications of their decisions on the player base. This IS the same EDH Rules Committee who had a knee-jerk reaction (well mainly Sheldon Menery) about Wheel effects (named after Wheel of Fortune) having a negative effect on the format as well as debating whether or not If cards like Grave Pact and Dictate of Erebos are too divisive. Josh Lee Kwai who doesn't necessarily work for the EDH Rules Committee but is a part of the advisory group seems to be a rare voice of reason among them. This is what I feared would happen is that the player base is beginning to lose their trust with the EDH Rules Committee. It's really baffling that players would spend their hard earned money and free time to play a game only to be told that they're playing it wrong when it's a social game that can easily self regulate. Isn't that why Rule 0 is a thing?
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
Yeah, a cEDH affectionado calling the EDH Rules Committee out of touch because the RC looks at EDH without a focus on cEDH would very well have not much of a standing - you play your own separate format, you better take care of your own separate ban list. If you don't, then that's your decision to implicitly accept that other banlist and the decisions that were made with another format in mind.
That said Sunflower MTG doesn't mention cEDH. But with how different the format is, it should have its own banlist easily.
I mean "for the people who do not Rule 0, they just lost their favorite or most fun commander" is also basically an admission that the people who now "just suffered a wrongful, tasteless ban" are suffering due to their own choice to pick and choose which rules they follow. They choose tofollow the banlist, but choose to ignore Rule 0. If they were consistent between following either both or neither, there would beno issue, correct?
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Planar Chaos was not a mistake neither was it random. You might want to look at it again.
[thread=239793][Game] Level Up - Creature[/thread]
I forgot to mention that there was more than one online petition to unban Golos, Tireless Pilgrim in EDH / Commander with more signatures aside from Sunflower MTG being Autumn Phoenix so there's that. Here's Autumn Phoenix's plea to the EDH Rules Committee to unban Golos:
Quote from Autumn Phoenix »
Golos, Tireless Pilgrim has been usable as a commander in the Magic the Gathering EDH format since 2019. Since then, many people have spent their hard earned money and time to build decks around this card. Being the most important card in decks that use it as a commander, it is unfair to ban it. In some cases, the banning of this card may even result in making a deck virtually useless. With commander being a highly targeted casual format, it is wrong to enforce this ruling as it can also cause other players to feel unstable about building decks around other commanders, with the fear they may just get banned in the future. If you also feel this banning has been unjustified, I hope you will also sign this petition.
Thank you for your time
I do get where you're coming from though SecretInfiltrator.
Why can't your group allow your friend to play Golos anyway?
Our group had Golos banned before he was out...
Fair point. I still support the traditional EDH / Commander Banned List even though I already signed Autumn Phoenix's petition since they have more signatures than Sunflower MTG. I can't see the Golos ban being justifiable enough to warrant it. Hullbreacher is one of those bannings where it blurred the lines between both competitive and casual aspects of the format to where the EDH Rules Committee doesn't pay enough attention to the competitive side as much as they probably should. Should there be a separate committee for cEDH?
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
claiming that their recent bans / unbans as of late proves that they're completely out of touch with the format.
They are the ones out of touch with the format. Golos should have been banned day 1. He is a complete perversion of what EDH should be. He is the ultimate goodstuff general, that completely destroy any niche deck or build-around-me general because you can just play your strategy in 5c Golos and be fine. People who don't understand this should really double check why they are playing this format.
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
What made playing Golos so enjoyable again? Was it the skill of rolling a slot machine or just being able to play 30 mana worth of stuff for a fraction of the cost? Even if it is banned there are still ways of doing both, just Show and Tell an Omniscience or play some Aetherworks Marvel if you want that slot machine fun.
claiming that their recent bans / unbans as of late proves that they're completely out of touch with the format.
They are the ones out of touch with the format. Golos should have been banned day 1. He is a complete perversion of what EDH should be. He is the ultimate goodstuff general, that completely destroy any niche deck or build-around-me general because you can just play your strategy in 5c Golos and be fine. People who don't understand this should really double check why they are playing this format.
Agree with this entire statement. The argument about 'oh I spent so much on cards for his deck' is also completely meaningless considering this is generally an expensive format now if you want any top deck.
Any casual group should absolutely not give a damn about the Commander banned list, the suggestions from them reflect their idea, like a local playgroup of them, others might completely disagree.
Ironically the only place where the list is really relevant is in tournaments for cEDH that use the banned list as an actual banned list, and you cant play if your deck is illegal.
In any casual world, its irrelevant, so the entire point of the banned list is pretty damn pointless in the first place.
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A much better approach is to have an actual community rate each rate if they have fun with it or not.
Then remove the biggest offenders that the majority dislikes to play with an you have a "working" banned list in a group (thats basically what the potentially time wasting "pre-game discussion" is trying to accomplish, which is super silly in my eyes, as playing against as many different decks as possible is much more interesting than restricting yourself).
Any card of that list has super high potential to be game-breaking annoying, while they are not banned, if someone plays them chances are its very little or no fun at all for the rest of the table, as these cards when used "properly" will be backbreaking and game warping for the table.
You can play basically any Magic card in a fair and fun way, if thats your approach and if its about competitive play, anything goes.
To have a big compilation of ratings for cards if they are "salty" or not is much better reflection of what a community thinks about a card rather than asking a tiny selection of advocates (and they unquestionable have a massive market manipulation effect with their bannings / unbannings , would not be surprised if some of them bought a lot of Worldfire just to flip them instantly).
Any casual group should absolutely not give a damn about the Commander banned list, the suggestions from them reflect their idea, like a local playgroup of them, others might completely disagree.
Ironically the only place where the list is really relevant is in tournaments for cEDH that use the banned list as an actual banned list, and you cant play if your deck is illegal.
In any casual world, its irrelevant, so the entire point of the banned list is pretty damn pointless in the first place.
Commander was born as a casual format. The RC plays casual. They try to have the format appeal to everyone but they have no interest into turning the format competitive.
Why you want to take that from the casual player? Why you want to take the only format that is not 100% catered to competitive players into a format exactly like the other ones?
If competitive players are so needy, they can form their own RC and make their own banlist. 1vs1 commander players did that multiple time.
But cEDH don't want to do that. They want to take away other people's stuff. They want to dictate how RC should play.
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
Look. We all need to come to terms that the EDH Rules Committee are stuck in their own bubble as they don't care If their decisions are relevant to the vast majority of players let alone the financial / time ramifications of their decisions on the player base. This IS the same EDH Rules Committee who had a knee-jerk reaction (well mainly Sheldon Menery) about Wheel effects (named after Wheel of Fortune) having a negative effect on the format
What a world we live in when merely voicing your opinion is considered having "a knee-jerk reaction" despite not taking action and certainly not taking hasty action after managing a format for what, 15 years?
You people are never happy. If the RC doesn't take action, they're wrong. If they do take action, they're wrong. If they voice an opinion, they're wrong. Apparently they are only right when they agree with you and only you. Because, of course, you and you alone are "the vast majority of players," as opposed to, you know, the actual majority of people who play this casual format.
It's funny that you praise Josh Lee Kwai as "a rare voice of reason" on the CAG, because I find him drifting further and further away from the spirit of the format that I have loved and played for over 12 years now. I used to enjoy Command Zone but find them more and more out of touch.
Do I agree with everything the RC does? No. But I support them because they have kept EDH/Commander from becoming the dumpster fire that is every format managed by WOTC.
Have I lost cards when they were banned out of my decks? Yes, about 12-14 times.
Did I get salty and whine and make ad hominem attacks online because of it? No, because I am a rational adult.
Golos is in the 99 of my Kenrith tribal activated abilities deck, and now I'll have to find a replacement. Which isn't a big deal when we have 20,000+ cards to choose from. For anyone running it as a commander, it doesn't necessarily invalidate their entire deck - often they can either switch to another generic goodstuff commander (Jodah or Esika) or they can find one more specifically tailored to their strategy. In a minority of cases, these solutions may not work, but they still own the cards, which aside from Golos should retain their value.
As for the CEDH subject, I honestly believe that the divide between Commander and CEDH is growing too wide for them to be supported by the same banlist. We just aren't looking to play the same game.
Look. We all need to come to terms that the EDH Rules Committee are stuck in their own bubble as they don't care If their decisions are relevant to the vast majority of players let alone the financial / time ramifications of their decisions on the player base.
cEDH players are not the majority of players, and even people complaining online are not the majority (they are a very vocal minority). The RC specifically created the CAG to make sure they were hearing from a larger player base, so I find it hard to believe that they are "stuck in their own bubble" and that "they don't care If [sic] their decisions are relevant [to players]".
And they should never not ban a card just because people spent money on it. Part of playing Magic is understanding that cards CAN be banned, and if you spend a bunch of money on a card and then it's banned, that can happen. It sucks, but such is the nature of playing a format with a banlist.
According to one of my friends at my locals, the cEDH community didn't take the recent ban on Golos, Tireless Pilgrim too lightly as someone just started an online petition to convince the EDH Rules Committee to unban Golos for EDH / Commander claiming that their recent bans / unbans as of late proves that they're completely out of touch with the format. There was already speculation that the EDH Rules Committee was pushing for the cEDH community to create their own separate ban list for cEDH instead of following the traditional ban list for EDH / Commander back when Hullbreacher got banned from the format because it was more of a linchpin card for the competitive side of the format compared to casual where it was more oppressive. If you've seen that one Game Knights episode where Cassius Marsh pressured Josh Lee Kwai into casting Deflecting Swat to save the playgroup from Hullbreacher then you know what I'm talking about. Cassius tried to deny everyone cards by casting Timetwister with Hullbreacher to net Treasure tokens.
Why the hell do "cEDH players" care about Golos being banned? It's not played there outside of some 5-color Turbo Naus build that wants Boseiju, Who Shelters All in their command zone, but Codie has eaten that surprisingly small space almost entirely.
Commander was born as a casual format. The RC plays casual. They try to have the format appeal to everyone but they have no interest into turning the format competitive.
Why you want to take that from the casual player? Why you want to take the only format that is not 100% catered to competitive players into a format exactly like the other ones?
If competitive players are so needy, they can form their own RC and make their own banlist. 1vs1 commander players did that multiple time.
But cEDH don't want to do that. They want to take away other people's stuff. They want to dictate how RC should play.
Sometimes its worth reading the entire post, and not just the phrases you want to.
As i said, instead of having a subjective list of banned list, they could and should make a list of particularly "salty" cards, just like the list i posted already does.
Thats the cards that produce games that players might have issues with and its likely they will have issues with.
Particular corner cases always exist, if a card is used ethical it can be broken and no problem, but destroying all lands is well, basically never fun for anybody involved, so the list of salty cards is for the most part full of stuff that makes people unable to play the game and have fun at all, other than auto-next as they cant do anything.
The casual people overall agree with that, and everyone just takes the banned list as a benchmark and is supposed to have a discussion about what they want from a game ... so its pointless in its form and pointless in what it wants to archive, as the list itself is not comprehensive enough to be a benchmark for actual salty cards that produce obnoxious games and its not even inherently cohesive in what is on the list.
But the only format that takes the list and enforces it is cEDH , any casual form will basically ignore the banned list anyway, as it doesnt really work for them in the first place.
And ironically for cEDH a lot of cards are unplayable garbage anyway on the list, it doesnt really make sense to use it, but its the only really "official" list, while different "Highlander" formats with different rules have their own banned lists that are much more useful for competitive play as thats the goal of them.
So for casuals, a "salty card" list is more useful than outright banning cards.
And they should never not ban a card just because people spent money on it. Part of playing Magic is understanding that cards CAN be banned, and if you spend a bunch of money on a card and then it's banned, that can happen. It sucks, but such is the nature of playing a format with a banlist.
Well, the deal with banning cards is that it should follow a proper guideline and goals.
Normally putting a card on a banned list should have a very real and strong reason, as there are plenty of very problematic cards in EDH (namely, the salty card list) that are not banned, but many groups would completely agree they should be banned and some do ban individual cards (as a bunch of salty cards somewhat auto-ban themselves, as its not even fun for the player using them).
When a card gets banned that people could see coming its fine, its a slower decline in price and people are more aware of a risk involved.
If they suddenly would ban all fetchlands out of nowhere, people would be MASSIVELY pissed and lose tons of money.
That kind of decisions are blatant market manipulation and it was already a problem in the past when they "leaked" information about what card gets banned earlier to their "friends" which then bought or sold a lot of them.
To have a authority to decide a banned-list in a casual format is in itself kinda stupid, and it doesnt full fill its own goal at all (but its still widely accepted as the "official" list, so if you disagree with it you still have a bad starting position for your argument, if someone is pedantic enough to insist that the "official" list has a higher priority).
As many stated in this thread alone, the argument to unban Worldfire is lackluster at best, and the influence of the card market is blatantly clear.
The casual people overall agree with that, and everyone just takes the banned list as a benchmark and is supposed to have a discussion about what they want from a game ...
But the only format that takes the list and enforces it is cEDH , any casual form will basically ignore the banned list anyway, as it doesnt really work for them in the first place.
This is flat out wrong and illustrates a fundamental misunderstanding of Commander as a whole. I play casual - I have played regularly at two different LGSs and in three different private groups over the last twelve years, and with very rare exception, we always followed the banlist. Every once in a while someone may ask to play a silver-bordered commander or. Nephilim, but they always have to get permission first, and those account for less than a tenth of a percent of the games I've played. Even casuals enforce the banlist.
Where do you get that "casual people overall agree," "everyone just takes the banned list as a benchmark," "any casual form will basically ignore the banned list"? Got any evidence? Any poll? Or just a poorly formed stereotype?
The only thing that doesn't work is trying to make a banlist that covers both casual and competitive. But that problem isn't the fault of the established list and rules committee who have made it clear they care about casual play; it's a problem made by people wanting to co-opt an existing format and twist it to their own ends at the expense of those it was made for.
Sometimes its worth reading the entire post, and not just the phrases you want to.
You say this while not reading my post and addressing 0 points that i made.
Who cares about your salty cards list? If i don't want to follow RC's list, why should i listen to what EDHREC has to say? Can't i just make my own list with my friends then? Your "salty list" card is just a banlist with another name.
If you really think that cEDH can't continue following the official banlist, make your own RC and make your own competitive banlist for competitive only. Stop trying to appropriate other people's work.
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
I'm likely the minority, but this ban also effects us mtgo players. Golos was everywhere on there, to the point I had to auto conceed many games when he showed up. This is a huge relief for the mtgo community.
Where do you get that "casual people overall agree," "everyone just takes the banned list as a benchmark," "any casual form will basically ignore the banned list"? Got any evidence? Any poll?
Yes, the EDHREC salty list is made of over 3,471,000 votes do give the cards in question a salt-score.
Its WAY more comprehensive than the limited banned list.
The massive amount of decks uploaded on the site is also a pretty defining indicator what people actually enjoy to play and what they better let on the bench if they make casual decks and not competitive ones.
The only thing that doesn't work is trying to make a banlist that covers both casual and competitive. But that problem isn't the fault of the established list and rules committee who have made it clear they care about casual play; it's a problem made by people wanting to co-opt an existing format and twist it to their own ends at the expense of those it was made for.
The existence of an "official" banned list for the format is what produces this issue of having only 1 list.
If they realized that, they could certainly have 2 lists, with both directions in mind and thats not even complicated or much work, its just that you have to do it, or you dont and people will rightfully forever critique that problem.
In the end being the "official" list carries weight no matter who likes it or not.
Like the salty card list or not, edhrec.com is still one of the most defining and comprehensive sites for the Commander format and has plenty of data to see what cards work best in the format and which ones are problematic.
Where do you get that "casual people overall agree," "everyone just takes the banned list as a benchmark," "any casual form will basically ignore the banned list"? Got any evidence? Any poll?
Yes, the EDHREC salty list is made of over 3,471,000 votes do give the cards in question a salt-score.
Its WAY more comprehensive than the limited banned list.
The massive amount of decks uploaded on the site is also a pretty defining indicator what people actually enjoy to play and what they better let on the bench if they make casual decks and not competitive ones.
The only thing that doesn't work is trying to make a banlist that covers both casual and competitive. But that problem isn't the fault of the established list and rules committee who have made it clear they care about casual play; it's a problem made by people wanting to co-opt an existing format and twist it to their own ends at the expense of those it was made for.
The existence of an "official" banned list for the format is what produces this issue of having only 1 list.
If they realized that, they could certainly have 2 lists, with both directions in mind and thats not even complicated or much work, its just that you have to do it, or you dont and people will rightfully forever critique that problem.
In the end being the "official" list carries weight no matter who likes it or not.
Like the salty card list or not, edhrec.com is still one of the most defining and comprehensive sites for the Commander format and has plenty of data to see what cards work best in the format and which ones are problematic.
You're also assuming everyone uploads their lists to a site EDHRec gets from. Lots of people still used TappedOut (which EDHRec doesn't dredge decklists from), and exponentially more don't upload lists online at all. The more enfranchised group EDHRec pulls from is also highly susceptible to content creator-mediated swings, like a spike in certain commanders when a famous content creator makes a deck tech video. Not saying it's not a large source of data, but it's not completely unbiased data either.
[...] many people have spent their hard earned money and time to build decks around this card. Being the most important card in decks that use it as a commander, it is unfair to ban it. In some cases, the banning of this card may even result in making a deck virtually useless. [...]
I absolutely don't follow that reasoning. Golos is the essence of 5 color goodstuff and pretty much the opposite of a build-around commander.
Sure, it's probably not viable to simply make a 1:1 swap to Jodah or a similar replacement, since you now have to actually run some amount of ramp/color fixing in the deck, but that should be solvable and imo brings back an essential part of deckbuilding that was just circumvented by simply tacking it onto your value engine...
The existence of an "official" banned list for the format is what produces this issue of having only 1 list.
If they realized that, they could certainly have 2 lists, with both directions in mind and thats not even complicated or much work, its just that you have to do it, or you dont and people will rightfully forever critique that problem.
Or, if it's not even complicated or much work, the cEDH people could just create that second list themselves instead of complaining forever?
Why would it be on the RC to create a second banlist for the people that play their decidedly casual format in an unintended way? Don't get me wrong, everyone absolutely can and should play the game the way they like, but if that warps a format so much that the original rules and restrictions don't fit it anymore, that's on you.
Don't agree with the notion that the ban is totally irrelevant in casual EDH. Maybe if you play kitchen table with the same group of friends you can make this rule 0 agreement, if you're playing at an lgs however and joining different playgroups, often with people you've never played with before, playing with a banned card is a lot more difficult and frowned upon.
Yeah, a cEDH affectionado calling the EDH Rules Committee out of touch because the RC looks at EDH without a focus on cEDH would very well have not much of a standing - you play your own separate format, you better take care of your own separate ban list. If you don't, then that's your decision to implicitly accept that other banlist and the decisions that were made with another format in mind.
That said Sunflower MTG doesn't mention cEDH. But with how different the format is, it should have its own banlist easily.
I mean "for the people who do not Rule 0, they just lost their favorite or most fun commander" is also basically an admission that the people who now "just suffered a wrongful, tasteless ban" are suffering due to their own choice to pick and choose which rules they follow. They choose tofollow the banlist, but choose to ignore Rule 0. If they were consistent between following either both or neither, there would beno issue, correct?
I strongly disagree on your take. Rule 0 is fine if you keep playing with only the same 8 people, or if you have the resources to build a number of decks. But Golos was popular with new players because he's so flexible and easy to build. New players, who may just be trying the game, who don't have access to a metric buttload of cards like the more experienced players do.
You're a new player. You see Golos, which is super Timmy. You build him, using your lunch money to buy cards and sleeves. You bring him to the large, successful LGS down the street, eager to play. You grab a seat in an open group....and because it's a setting where you sit where there is room instead of it being 'your group' they adhere to the official banlist to keep things consistent. So that first deck can't be played, Timmy does not have a deck of his own, because too many people liked playing the card, not because it was too strong.
The question is this, does Timmy go through the process of trading and buying his way to another deck before he can play again, or does Timmy go play a different game?
When I am playing with my small group of friends who get together every few weeks, we have no problem with Golos or Nephilim or something like that. But the rest of the time, I'm at the LGS, playing with people I don't know, or don't know well as often as I can get a seat with friends. Now I have been playing since Rise of the Eldrazi, grabbing a different deck is not an issue for me. But Golos specifically was extremely popular with new players just getting in.
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Project Booster Fun makes it less fun to open a booster.
Here's a question: if someone said that the Standard ban list, or the Modern one, or the Legacy one, was no longer going to be controlled by Wizards of the Coast (who have access to huge resources in terms of player feedback, data, etc.), but would instead be controlled by just four people who are all friends (and a few "advisors" who don't seem to have much sway), would anyone be surprised that the ban list was a mess? Would you be surprised that it reflected the strange whims of certain group rather than a measured and consistent approach? Would we be surprised that they get super defensive and take valid criticism personally? Nope. That would be completely inevitable.
Hear me out. The problem here isn't really the Golos ban per se. My personal opinion on that ban isn't relevant. The problem is that the RC is way too insular and way too small to be steering this ship on their own. The truth is, whatever you personally think about Golos, a huge portion of the community feels that this ban is completely crazy, like it's from upside-down world. And that group includes a ton of thoughtful folks who spend their whole careers thinking about Magic -- folks like Josh and Jimmy from the Command Zone, the Prof, Mitch from Commanders Quarters, DJ from Jumbo Commander, etc. etc. When that many people, including high level thinkers, believe a high-stakes ban like this is absolutely wrong for the game, you have to start questioning the process by which we got here, even if you personally agree with the outcome.
My opinion is that it's time to massively expand the RC. Give seats to Josh, Jimmy, DJ, the Prof, etc. and let a larger group of folks weigh in and make the call together. Maybe even include a few folks from Wizards, like Gavin Verhey. Side bonus, give some seats to folks who aren't white guys. My point is that, individual bans aside, we as a community deserve a better process. And speaking for myself, if I felt that a large group of smart, critical people, all came together and voted by 2/3 majority (or something, it's an example), it would be a little easier for me to understand and accept why my (expensive) deck is no longer allowed.
It's about the process, even more than the outcome.
Here's a question: if someone said that the Standard ban list, or the Modern one, or the Legacy one, was no longer going to be controlled by Wizards of the Coast (who have access to huge resources in terms of player feedback, data, etc.), but would instead be controlled by just four people who are all friends (and a few "advisors" who don't seem to have much sway), would anyone be surprised that the ban list was a mess? Would you be surprised that it reflected the strange whims of certain group rather than a measured and consistent approach? Would we be surprised that they get super defensive and take valid criticism personally? Nope. That would be completely inevitable.
People complain all the time about wotc banlist, so i don't think you have a very solid ground. You may look into wotc's banlist of 1v1 commander. I'll hardly call it a success.
Hear me out. The problem here isn't really the Golos ban per se. My personal opinion on that ban isn't relevant. The problem is that the RC is way too insular and way too small to be steering this ship on their own. The truth is, whatever you personally think about Golos, a huge portion of the community feels that this ban is completely crazy, like it's from upside-down world.
I mean really? Golos ban is crazy? upside-down world?
RC has stated its reasons. They are all valid. Maybe you think that the only criteria for a ban should be pure power level. Maybe you are salty because now you can't play your Golos deck anymore. But saying the ban is crazy, insular or has no reasons is just being intellectually dishonest. Golos is THE TOP goodstuff commander and it's not even close. EVERY DECK can be turned into a 5c golos deck and still be playable. Everyone can see that. not everyone want the future of commander meta be 5c golos decks.
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
Rule 10 said Commanders were subject to the Legend Rule. It would be the same as if they had rules 87-91 that explained that basic lands tap for colored mana. We don't need a separate rule saying that Commanders are subject to the Legend Rule because they are Legendary which means that the normal rules of Magic already cover it.
Gotcha. Thank you. Nothing really to see here then.
My opinion is that it's time to massively expand the RC. Give seats to Josh, Jimmy, DJ, the Prof, etc. and let a larger group of folks weigh in and make the call together. Maybe even include a few folks from Wizards, like Gavin Verhey.
Ignoring the fact that plenty of people already think the Wizards' banlists are a mess, even with their data, this comment has already happened. They *did* expand things and have somewhere around 11 other people on their Commander Advisory Group. With Josh from the Command Zone already being one of them. And they expanded it once after creating it initially. And that group helped achieve the Flash ban and likely weighed in on these two changes as well.
Also, 25% of the current RC (the 4 people you mentioned) does work for Wizards and another is the main Policy "guy" for whenever the IPG is updated. Maybe not as many as you would like, but they already have a Wizards employee on their roster. I don't think adding more people changes their philosophy.
Look. We all need to come to terms that the EDH Rules Committee are stuck in their own bubble as they don't care If their decisions are relevant to the vast majority of players let alone the financial / time ramifications of their decisions on the player base. This IS the same EDH Rules Committee who had a knee-jerk reaction (well mainly Sheldon Menery) about Wheel effects (named after Wheel of Fortune) having a negative effect on the format as well as debating whether or not If cards like Grave Pact and Dictate of Erebos are too divisive. Josh Lee Kwai who doesn't necessarily work for the EDH Rules Committee but is a part of the advisory group seems to be a rare voice of reason among them. This is what I feared would happen is that the player base is beginning to lose their trust with the EDH Rules Committee. It's really baffling that players would spend their hard earned money and free time to play a game only to be told that they're playing it wrong when it's a social game that can easily self regulate. Isn't that why Rule 0 is a thing?
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
Why can't your group allow your friend to play Golos anyway?
Our group had Golos banned before he was out...
https://archidekt.com/user/71716
That said Sunflower MTG doesn't mention cEDH. But with how different the format is, it should have its own banlist easily.
I mean "for the people who do not Rule 0, they just lost their favorite or most fun commander" is also basically an admission that the people who now "just suffered a wrongful, tasteless ban" are suffering due to their own choice to pick and choose which rules they follow. They choose tofollow the banlist, but choose to ignore Rule 0. If they were consistent between following either both or neither, there would beno issue, correct?
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
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"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
They are the ones out of touch with the format. Golos should have been banned day 1. He is a complete perversion of what EDH should be. He is the ultimate goodstuff general, that completely destroy any niche deck or build-around-me general because you can just play your strategy in 5c Golos and be fine. People who don't understand this should really double check why they are playing this format.
Agree with this entire statement. The argument about 'oh I spent so much on cards for his deck' is also completely meaningless considering this is generally an expensive format now if you want any top deck.
Ironically the only place where the list is really relevant is in tournaments for cEDH that use the banned list as an actual banned list, and you cant play if your deck is illegal.
In any casual world, its irrelevant, so the entire point of the banned list is pretty damn pointless in the first place.
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A much better approach is to have an actual community rate each rate if they have fun with it or not.
Then remove the biggest offenders that the majority dislikes to play with an you have a "working" banned list in a group (thats basically what the potentially time wasting "pre-game discussion" is trying to accomplish, which is super silly in my eyes, as playing against as many different decks as possible is much more interesting than restricting yourself).
Good example is a Saltiest cards list:
Top 100 Saltiest Cards
Any card of that list has super high potential to be game-breaking annoying, while they are not banned, if someone plays them chances are its very little or no fun at all for the rest of the table, as these cards when used "properly" will be backbreaking and game warping for the table.
You can play basically any Magic card in a fair and fun way, if thats your approach and if its about competitive play, anything goes.
To have a big compilation of ratings for cards if they are "salty" or not is much better reflection of what a community thinks about a card rather than asking a tiny selection of advocates (and they unquestionable have a massive market manipulation effect with their bannings / unbannings , would not be surprised if some of them bought a lot of Worldfire just to flip them instantly).
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Commander was born as a casual format. The RC plays casual. They try to have the format appeal to everyone but they have no interest into turning the format competitive.
Why you want to take that from the casual player? Why you want to take the only format that is not 100% catered to competitive players into a format exactly like the other ones?
If competitive players are so needy, they can form their own RC and make their own banlist. 1vs1 commander players did that multiple time.
But cEDH don't want to do that. They want to take away other people's stuff. They want to dictate how RC should play.
You people are never happy. If the RC doesn't take action, they're wrong. If they do take action, they're wrong. If they voice an opinion, they're wrong. Apparently they are only right when they agree with you and only you. Because, of course, you and you alone are "the vast majority of players," as opposed to, you know, the actual majority of people who play this casual format.
It's funny that you praise Josh Lee Kwai as "a rare voice of reason" on the CAG, because I find him drifting further and further away from the spirit of the format that I have loved and played for over 12 years now. I used to enjoy Command Zone but find them more and more out of touch.
Do I agree with everything the RC does? No. But I support them because they have kept EDH/Commander from becoming the dumpster fire that is every format managed by WOTC.
Have I lost cards when they were banned out of my decks? Yes, about 12-14 times.
Did I get salty and whine and make ad hominem attacks online because of it? No, because I am a rational adult.
Golos is in the 99 of my Kenrith tribal activated abilities deck, and now I'll have to find a replacement. Which isn't a big deal when we have 20,000+ cards to choose from. For anyone running it as a commander, it doesn't necessarily invalidate their entire deck - often they can either switch to another generic goodstuff commander (Jodah or Esika) or they can find one more specifically tailored to their strategy. In a minority of cases, these solutions may not work, but they still own the cards, which aside from Golos should retain their value.
As for the CEDH subject, I honestly believe that the divide between Commander and CEDH is growing too wide for them to be supported by the same banlist. We just aren't looking to play the same game.
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cEDH players are not the majority of players, and even people complaining online are not the majority (they are a very vocal minority). The RC specifically created the CAG to make sure they were hearing from a larger player base, so I find it hard to believe that they are "stuck in their own bubble" and that "they don't care If [sic] their decisions are relevant [to players]".
And they should never not ban a card just because people spent money on it. Part of playing Magic is understanding that cards CAN be banned, and if you spend a bunch of money on a card and then it's banned, that can happen. It sucks, but such is the nature of playing a format with a banlist.
Sometimes its worth reading the entire post, and not just the phrases you want to.
As i said, instead of having a subjective list of banned list, they could and should make a list of particularly "salty" cards, just like the list i posted already does.
Thats the cards that produce games that players might have issues with and its likely they will have issues with.
Particular corner cases always exist, if a card is used ethical it can be broken and no problem, but destroying all lands is well, basically never fun for anybody involved, so the list of salty cards is for the most part full of stuff that makes people unable to play the game and have fun at all, other than auto-next as they cant do anything.
The casual people overall agree with that, and everyone just takes the banned list as a benchmark and is supposed to have a discussion about what they want from a game ... so its pointless in its form and pointless in what it wants to archive, as the list itself is not comprehensive enough to be a benchmark for actual salty cards that produce obnoxious games and its not even inherently cohesive in what is on the list.
But the only format that takes the list and enforces it is cEDH , any casual form will basically ignore the banned list anyway, as it doesnt really work for them in the first place.
And ironically for cEDH a lot of cards are unplayable garbage anyway on the list, it doesnt really make sense to use it, but its the only really "official" list, while different "Highlander" formats with different rules have their own banned lists that are much more useful for competitive play as thats the goal of them.
So for casuals, a "salty card" list is more useful than outright banning cards.
Well, the deal with banning cards is that it should follow a proper guideline and goals.
Normally putting a card on a banned list should have a very real and strong reason, as there are plenty of very problematic cards in EDH (namely, the salty card list) that are not banned, but many groups would completely agree they should be banned and some do ban individual cards (as a bunch of salty cards somewhat auto-ban themselves, as its not even fun for the player using them).
When a card gets banned that people could see coming its fine, its a slower decline in price and people are more aware of a risk involved.
If they suddenly would ban all fetchlands out of nowhere, people would be MASSIVELY pissed and lose tons of money.
That kind of decisions are blatant market manipulation and it was already a problem in the past when they "leaked" information about what card gets banned earlier to their "friends" which then bought or sold a lot of them.
To have a authority to decide a banned-list in a casual format is in itself kinda stupid, and it doesnt full fill its own goal at all (but its still widely accepted as the "official" list, so if you disagree with it you still have a bad starting position for your argument, if someone is pedantic enough to insist that the "official" list has a higher priority).
As many stated in this thread alone, the argument to unban Worldfire is lackluster at best, and the influence of the card market is blatantly clear.
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Where do you get that "casual people overall agree," "everyone just takes the banned list as a benchmark," "any casual form will basically ignore the banned list"? Got any evidence? Any poll? Or just a poorly formed stereotype?
The only thing that doesn't work is trying to make a banlist that covers both casual and competitive. But that problem isn't the fault of the established list and rules committee who have made it clear they care about casual play; it's a problem made by people wanting to co-opt an existing format and twist it to their own ends at the expense of those it was made for.
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You say this while not reading my post and addressing 0 points that i made.
Who cares about your salty cards list? If i don't want to follow RC's list, why should i listen to what EDHREC has to say? Can't i just make my own list with my friends then? Your "salty list" card is just a banlist with another name.
If you really think that cEDH can't continue following the official banlist, make your own RC and make your own competitive banlist for competitive only. Stop trying to appropriate other people's work.
Yes, the EDHREC salty list is made of over 3,471,000 votes do give the cards in question a salt-score.
Its WAY more comprehensive than the limited banned list.
The massive amount of decks uploaded on the site is also a pretty defining indicator what people actually enjoy to play and what they better let on the bench if they make casual decks and not competitive ones.
The existence of an "official" banned list for the format is what produces this issue of having only 1 list.
If they realized that, they could certainly have 2 lists, with both directions in mind and thats not even complicated or much work, its just that you have to do it, or you dont and people will rightfully forever critique that problem.
In the end being the "official" list carries weight no matter who likes it or not.
Like the salty card list or not, edhrec.com is still one of the most defining and comprehensive sites for the Commander format and has plenty of data to see what cards work best in the format and which ones are problematic.
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Sure, it's probably not viable to simply make a 1:1 swap to Jodah or a similar replacement, since you now have to actually run some amount of ramp/color fixing in the deck, but that should be solvable and imo brings back an essential part of deckbuilding that was just circumvented by simply tacking it onto your value engine...
Or, if it's not even complicated or much work, the cEDH people could just create that second list themselves instead of complaining forever?
Why would it be on the RC to create a second banlist for the people that play their decidedly casual format in an unintended way? Don't get me wrong, everyone absolutely can and should play the game the way they like, but if that warps a format so much that the original rules and restrictions don't fit it anymore, that's on you.
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I strongly disagree on your take. Rule 0 is fine if you keep playing with only the same 8 people, or if you have the resources to build a number of decks. But Golos was popular with new players because he's so flexible and easy to build. New players, who may just be trying the game, who don't have access to a metric buttload of cards like the more experienced players do.
You're a new player. You see Golos, which is super Timmy. You build him, using your lunch money to buy cards and sleeves. You bring him to the large, successful LGS down the street, eager to play. You grab a seat in an open group....and because it's a setting where you sit where there is room instead of it being 'your group' they adhere to the official banlist to keep things consistent. So that first deck can't be played, Timmy does not have a deck of his own, because too many people liked playing the card, not because it was too strong.
The question is this, does Timmy go through the process of trading and buying his way to another deck before he can play again, or does Timmy go play a different game?
When I am playing with my small group of friends who get together every few weeks, we have no problem with Golos or Nephilim or something like that. But the rest of the time, I'm at the LGS, playing with people I don't know, or don't know well as often as I can get a seat with friends. Now I have been playing since Rise of the Eldrazi, grabbing a different deck is not an issue for me. But Golos specifically was extremely popular with new players just getting in.
Hear me out. The problem here isn't really the Golos ban per se. My personal opinion on that ban isn't relevant. The problem is that the RC is way too insular and way too small to be steering this ship on their own. The truth is, whatever you personally think about Golos, a huge portion of the community feels that this ban is completely crazy, like it's from upside-down world. And that group includes a ton of thoughtful folks who spend their whole careers thinking about Magic -- folks like Josh and Jimmy from the Command Zone, the Prof, Mitch from Commanders Quarters, DJ from Jumbo Commander, etc. etc. When that many people, including high level thinkers, believe a high-stakes ban like this is absolutely wrong for the game, you have to start questioning the process by which we got here, even if you personally agree with the outcome.
My opinion is that it's time to massively expand the RC. Give seats to Josh, Jimmy, DJ, the Prof, etc. and let a larger group of folks weigh in and make the call together. Maybe even include a few folks from Wizards, like Gavin Verhey. Side bonus, give some seats to folks who aren't white guys. My point is that, individual bans aside, we as a community deserve a better process. And speaking for myself, if I felt that a large group of smart, critical people, all came together and voted by 2/3 majority (or something, it's an example), it would be a little easier for me to understand and accept why my (expensive) deck is no longer allowed.
It's about the process, even more than the outcome.
People complain all the time about wotc banlist, so i don't think you have a very solid ground. You may look into wotc's banlist of 1v1 commander. I'll hardly call it a success.
I mean really? Golos ban is crazy? upside-down world?
RC has stated its reasons. They are all valid. Maybe you think that the only criteria for a ban should be pure power level. Maybe you are salty because now you can't play your Golos deck anymore. But saying the ban is crazy, insular or has no reasons is just being intellectually dishonest. Golos is THE TOP goodstuff commander and it's not even close. EVERY DECK can be turned into a 5c golos deck and still be playable. Everyone can see that. not everyone want the future of commander meta be 5c golos decks.
Gotcha. Thank you. Nothing really to see here then.
Ignoring the fact that plenty of people already think the Wizards' banlists are a mess, even with their data, this comment has already happened. They *did* expand things and have somewhere around 11 other people on their Commander Advisory Group. With Josh from the Command Zone already being one of them. And they expanded it once after creating it initially. And that group helped achieve the Flash ban and likely weighed in on these two changes as well.
Also, 25% of the current RC (the 4 people you mentioned) does work for Wizards and another is the main Policy "guy" for whenever the IPG is updated. Maybe not as many as you would like, but they already have a Wizards employee on their roster. I don't think adding more people changes their philosophy.