Not happening now or anytime in the near future. End of thread.
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
There is no veracity to that rumor at all. As others have said, this rumor constantly circulates, and if there was any confirmation about the absolution of it, we would be hearing more specific details. Any rumor that states "The Reserved List may be abolished soon" without any specific details or coming from a well-known person in the MTG community should be considered nonsense.
The magic stock market and the "investors" wont let that happen. When I say investor I mean people that think they can buy a house by buying a card for A and then selling for B
theres only one hope of getting the list demolished and that's defeating the investors and get them to cave on allowing the reserve list to close.
and chaces are never since they paid like $1000 plus for those
but truth the refuse to listen is several first editions prices are still obnoxius the one and only point for them is grim tutor was #223 but now is only $93
theres only one hope of getting the list demolished and that's defeating the investors and get them to cave on allowing the reserve list to close.
The only hope to abolish the reserve list is to gather all the RL staples and burn them Joker style, making legacy and vintage unplayable. And even then there is still the chance that wotc will just retire the formats
How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
Wanted to make one quick point that I feel gets lost in discussions of the reserved list.
Whenever people dream about Wizards finally kicking down the banlist, people always bring up the idea that a product with the banlist would have to make Wizards enough money for it to be worth the risk. Most sets for MTG sell pretty well. Premium sets like Double Masters or Modern Horizons 2 with big chase cards likely sell even better. It is very tempting to predict that further increases in power would lead to corresponding increases in sales... but does it really?
Lets say that wizards needs to make twice or triple their normal income for the loss of reprint equity in masters sets to be worthwhile. I can afford to spend that much additional money on a premium set every now and then, though it's a bit of a stretch.
Now, let's say that Wizards needs to make ten times the normal income for the risk of a class-action suit from a reserve-list breaking product to be worthwhile. I can't afford to spend ten times the normal amount of money I spend on a set on any magic product. Ever. That would not fit in my budget unless I refrained from all MTG-related purchases for a good many months. Many other people would be in a similar boat as me. I doubt that such a product would be trying to make up the difference by appealing to brand new players, either. To make income of 10 x the normal amount, Wizards would be relying on the purchasing behaviors of extreme whales to go far above that 10x mark to make up for every player who can't reach that point... except that players with that amount of cash to spend on a regular product can afford to get virtually every card from the reserved list already. In fact, those are likely the players "hurt" most by the reprints of reserved list cards.
If the only people in a position to spend "enough" money on a product are those who are least likely to want or like the product, that is a problem.
tldr: I do not feel that wizards could reasonably earn enough money from a reserved list breaking product to fend off and potentially pay out on a class-action suit without making an amount of money from the product that would all but require the wealthy and enfranchised group of players who will likely be the ones suing them.
I’m fine with the Reserved List. It makes the few ABUR dual lands I need for a play set of each, then for a commander build, more challenging. Outside duals and the power nine, there aren’t a whole lot I’d spend over a thousand on.
There is no veracity to that rumor at all. As others have said, this rumor constantly circulates, and if there was any confirmation about the absolution of it, we would be hearing more specific details. Any rumor that states "The Reserved List may be abolished soon" without any specific details or coming from a well-known person in the MTG community should be considered nonsense.
There is no veracity to that rumor at all. As others have said, this rumor constantly circulates, and if there was any confirmation about the absolution of it, we would be hearing more specific details. Any rumor that states "The Reserved List may be abolished soon" without any specific details or coming from a well-known person in the MTG community should be considered nonsense.
I've been very vocal on my opinions of the Reserve List on these forums, but posts like this give me another new stance....
Just blacklist threads like this. Blacklist the phrase "Reserve List" in thread titles. Seriously, it's nonsense this thread has been allowed to exist for as long as it has.
The burden of proof relies on the one making the claim. YOU are the one making claims of reasons to believe the list is going to be changed without providing evidence. The evidence against it, on the other hand, has been made abundant over this forum for YEARS now.
If they ever get the game to go all digital, they wouldn't have to worry about it anymore. And with them pushing out more digital only cards they are testing the waters for how soon they can do it.
There is no veracity to that rumor at all. As others have said, this rumor constantly circulates, and if there was any confirmation about the absolution of it, we would be hearing more specific details. Any rumor that states "The Reserved List may be abolished soon" without any specific details or coming from a well-known person in the MTG community should be considered nonsense.
My guess, like every other decision they make, is money.
In a roundabout way, yes. The situation can be broken down as such:
1) WotC made a completely non-binding promise not to reprint the cards on the list
2) WotC, as was their right, went back on that promise repeatedly via editing the list and using 'loopholes' to reprint cards
3) WotC wanted to revisit the list one last time in order to abolish it
4) WotC consulted with members of the community as well as their corporate lawyers to see what people wanted as well as what was legally allowed
5) The community as a whole came out in favor of abolition
6) WotC, without further explanation, said that they would not ever be touching the list again and that they were not allowed to say why
Some additional information about the legal situation:
1) Folks throw around the term 'Promissory Estoppel' as a reason that people might sue WotC over abolition of the list. Definition: "Within contract law, promissory estoppel refers to the doctrine that a party may recover on the basis of a promise made when the party's reliance on that promise was reasonable, and the party attempting to recover detrimentally relied on the promise." In other words, if people made investments based on the idea that they'd never lose value because the cards couldn't be reprinted, they could sue.
2) This concept is a joke and would be thrown out in court, specifically in this case because removing the reserved list would actually increase the value of most peoples' collections due to increased interest (as shown repeatedly with high-value reprints of incredibly low-supply cards), and more often than not original printings of cards hold value regardless of reprints because of their collectible status. The key bit in proving Promissory Estoppel is that there ACTUALLY HAS TO BE FINANCIAL DAMAGE, which would not occur outside of a small window where the investors themselves panic dump their positions and temporarily deflate prices before they skyrocket back up due to renewed interest. The plaintiffs would also need to have kept detailed records and prove intent to rely upon said promise. There is 0% chance anyone would win such a case.
3) Corporate lawyers are not paid to win court cases. They are paid to keep a company out of court entirely.
4) Regardless of the 100% chance that WotC would win any litigation regarding the reserved list, they would in fact have to go to court in the first place which is a big no-no for corporate lawyers.
5) Corporate lawyers almost always have clauses in their contracts to prevent their clients from citing them in business decisions, for fear of a bad decision (like the one in question here) following them through their career.
If you piece all of the above together, regardless of how good it would be for the game, a Hasbro lawyer said 'no' and now WotC has to suck it up and they can't even come out and tell us why due to contracts. Meanwhile, investors get to make free money with no downside risk, soaking up large chunks of the supply do the detriment of the player base.
5) The community as a whole came out in favor of abolition
Thats really not true. If WotC closed the "only foil printing" loophole is exactly because that same community highly disliked to see RL reprinted in From the Vault : Relics and Duel Decks Coalition vs Phyrexia and gave negative feedback to WotC. We cannot know how many exactly of that investors /collectors uprise, but for sure you can't talk about the community as a "whole", because that's simply not true. A minority actually wants the existence of the RL for multiple reasons, and you must adress their existence in your equation (because that vocal minority was extremely relevant to make the current RL harsher as it is now).
A generation of woke, entitled players probably made this rumor. I don't really own that much RL, only really few. As much as I want to get my hands on some RL cards which sadly I can't, I understand the existence and importance of the RL. I think everyone should understand its existence and importance too. If you can't come to terms with its existence maybe don't get into the hobby or stop being a <SNIP!>.
A generation of woke, entitled players probably made this rumor. I don't really own that much RL, only really few. As much as I want to get my hands on some RL cards which sadly I can't, I understand the existence and importance of the RL. I think everyone should understand its existence and importance too. If you can't come to terms with its existence maybe don't get into the hobby or stop being a retard.
The Reserve List is important to investors, which is a small minority of WotC's customers that hold outsized sway. The concern with chipping away at the RL is that it will somehow devalue the game as a whole and cause a mass purge of collections and an exodus from the game altogether. That's pretty stupid, but it's what the investors have lead a lot of people to believe. Investors who, btw, are so entitled that they think their investments are supposed to be free of risk.
A generation of woke, entitled players probably made this rumor. I don't really own that much RL, only really few. As much as I want to get my hands on some RL cards which sadly I can't, I understand the existence and importance of the RL. I think everyone should understand its existence and importance too. If you can't come to terms with its existence maybe don't get into the hobby or stop being a retard.
Not sure what politics has to do with this, but your statement seems out of place. The reserve list only favors investors, who have become a minority since the creation of the game. Nowadays, those that play the game drive MTG by far and if people stopped playing the game (which won't happen anytime soon) all colletions would cease to be valuable. That is why I believe that Wizards missed an opportunity by failing to at least revise the RL. They could have made a change to the RL while at the same time allowing investors to sell their cards for a fraction of their value. Then they could have focused on the true drivers of their product (the players) but for some reason felt threatened by a group that simply has more bark than bite (Any case brought into court would ultimately be thrown out because you can't keep a company from producing its own product).
At the end of the day, I know Hasbro / Wizards won't make any changes to the RL going forward. I accepted that a long time ago and I think everyone else should as well. As usual, greed can ruin anything and this was definitely the case here.
I've been very vocal on my opinions of the Reserve List on these forums, but posts like this give me another new stance....
Just blacklist threads like this. Blacklist the phrase "Reserve List" in thread titles. Seriously, it's nonsense this thread has been allowed to exist for as long as it has.
The burden of proof relies on the one making the claim. YOU are the one making claims of reasons to believe the list is going to be changed without providing evidence. The evidence against it, on the other hand, has been made abundant over this forum for YEARS now.
So what's the problem? Don't you like this topic? Just pass over and have a nice day.
I've been very vocal on my opinions of the Reserve List on these forums, but posts like this give me another new stance....
Just blacklist threads like this. Blacklist the phrase "Reserve List" in thread titles. Seriously, it's nonsense this thread has been allowed to exist for as long as it has.
The burden of proof relies on the one making the claim. YOU are the one making claims of reasons to believe the list is going to be changed without providing evidence. The evidence against it, on the other hand, has been made abundant over this forum for YEARS now.
So what's the problem? Don't you like this topic? Just pass over and have a nice day.
I'd say that there's two real things going on.
1. This thread is kind of in the wrong place. While this is technically the "rumor mill", even a short look at the other threads in this forum should indicate that it isn't 'actually' used for rumors. Most of the threads here are about spoilers. This thread actually belongs in the speculation section within the rumor mill (or even the baseless speculation section within speculation) and there are a fair amount of threads even then that had an identifiable source of a potential leak rather than "I've heard people talking about it".
2. The leak and rumor community is a bit more robust and substantial than rumors in most other areas, to the point where most "I heard people talking about it" rumors don't even register. Most of the rumors that people spend time on come from sources. People may spoil miscellaneous info on reddit threads. Some people e-mail Rudy from Alpha Investments random leaks and hints that they have heard and those that he hears multiple times are sometimes mentioned in videos. While some of these sources are fake and some are real, there is always a source.
I want to commend you for hearing a rumor from other people and actually posting on here to see if there is a specific source rather than taking it at face value. The fact that no source has been found, however, should lead you to question what you have heard. If you heard that the manager at your LGS was sent an internal memo by accident (or something like that) or that this news came from a reddit user who has supplied specific user has supplied accurate information in the past, this would be a rumor with legs. As there seems to be no such source, however, this "rumor" seems largely speculative.
If there is no source, that doesn't mean that the Reserve List isn't going away (even if I find it unlikely), of course. It just means that your hope for it to go away is not based on any actual leaks or hints at this time. If you want to have a conversation about whether the reserved list should go away or if you think that it would make sense/be cool for it to be done at a specific milestone (such as Magic's Upcoming 30th anniversary), that is again something that should go in a new thread in Speculation or Baseless Speculation.
TLDR:
1. The rumor mill forum isn't actually for this kind of rumor any more (it annoys lots of people, trust me). Use Speculation/Baseless Speculation.
2. Your initial question (were there any recent leaks to substantiate this rumor?) was answered (no). If you want to talk more about the RL and if/how it should be broken, feel free to start a new thread in Speculation/Baseless Speculation.
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Is that true?
Have you heard something?
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
It wont for the forseeable.
~Funk Pirate
TCGPlayer has an article about the history of the Reserved List and the last time Wizards was close to abolishing it.
https://infinite.tcgplayer.com/article/The-MTG-Reserved-List-a-History/107d4d3d-ee50-4d0b-bf6f-f7684b7e5476
'buster
HR Analyst. Gamer. Activist | Fearless, and forthright | Aggro-control is a mindset.
Elspeth and Jhoira rock my world.
and chaces are never since they paid like $1000 plus for those
but truth the refuse to listen is several first editions prices are still obnoxius the one and only point for them is grim tutor was #223 but now is only $93
The only hope to abolish the reserve list is to gather all the RL staples and burn them Joker style, making legacy and vintage unplayable. And even then there is still the chance that wotc will just retire the formats
Whenever people dream about Wizards finally kicking down the banlist, people always bring up the idea that a product with the banlist would have to make Wizards enough money for it to be worth the risk. Most sets for MTG sell pretty well. Premium sets like Double Masters or Modern Horizons 2 with big chase cards likely sell even better. It is very tempting to predict that further increases in power would lead to corresponding increases in sales... but does it really?
Lets say that wizards needs to make twice or triple their normal income for the loss of reprint equity in masters sets to be worthwhile. I can afford to spend that much additional money on a premium set every now and then, though it's a bit of a stretch.
Now, let's say that Wizards needs to make ten times the normal income for the risk of a class-action suit from a reserve-list breaking product to be worthwhile. I can't afford to spend ten times the normal amount of money I spend on a set on any magic product. Ever. That would not fit in my budget unless I refrained from all MTG-related purchases for a good many months. Many other people would be in a similar boat as me. I doubt that such a product would be trying to make up the difference by appealing to brand new players, either. To make income of 10 x the normal amount, Wizards would be relying on the purchasing behaviors of extreme whales to go far above that 10x mark to make up for every player who can't reach that point... except that players with that amount of cash to spend on a regular product can afford to get virtually every card from the reserved list already. In fact, those are likely the players "hurt" most by the reprints of reserved list cards.
If the only people in a position to spend "enough" money on a product are those who are least likely to want or like the product, that is a problem.
tldr: I do not feel that wizards could reasonably earn enough money from a reserved list breaking product to fend off and potentially pay out on a class-action suit without making an amount of money from the product that would all but require the wealthy and enfranchised group of players who will likely be the ones suing them.
And why they decide, at last, to not abolish it?
My guess, like every other decision they make, is money.
Just blacklist threads like this. Blacklist the phrase "Reserve List" in thread titles. Seriously, it's nonsense this thread has been allowed to exist for as long as it has.
The burden of proof relies on the one making the claim. YOU are the one making claims of reasons to believe the list is going to be changed without providing evidence. The evidence against it, on the other hand, has been made abundant over this forum for YEARS now.
In a roundabout way, yes. The situation can be broken down as such:
1) WotC made a completely non-binding promise not to reprint the cards on the list
2) WotC, as was their right, went back on that promise repeatedly via editing the list and using 'loopholes' to reprint cards
3) WotC wanted to revisit the list one last time in order to abolish it
4) WotC consulted with members of the community as well as their corporate lawyers to see what people wanted as well as what was legally allowed
5) The community as a whole came out in favor of abolition
6) WotC, without further explanation, said that they would not ever be touching the list again and that they were not allowed to say why
Some additional information about the legal situation:
1) Folks throw around the term 'Promissory Estoppel' as a reason that people might sue WotC over abolition of the list. Definition: "Within contract law, promissory estoppel refers to the doctrine that a party may recover on the basis of a promise made when the party's reliance on that promise was reasonable, and the party attempting to recover detrimentally relied on the promise." In other words, if people made investments based on the idea that they'd never lose value because the cards couldn't be reprinted, they could sue.
2) This concept is a joke and would be thrown out in court, specifically in this case because removing the reserved list would actually increase the value of most peoples' collections due to increased interest (as shown repeatedly with high-value reprints of incredibly low-supply cards), and more often than not original printings of cards hold value regardless of reprints because of their collectible status. The key bit in proving Promissory Estoppel is that there ACTUALLY HAS TO BE FINANCIAL DAMAGE, which would not occur outside of a small window where the investors themselves panic dump their positions and temporarily deflate prices before they skyrocket back up due to renewed interest. The plaintiffs would also need to have kept detailed records and prove intent to rely upon said promise. There is 0% chance anyone would win such a case.
3) Corporate lawyers are not paid to win court cases. They are paid to keep a company out of court entirely.
4) Regardless of the 100% chance that WotC would win any litigation regarding the reserved list, they would in fact have to go to court in the first place which is a big no-no for corporate lawyers.
5) Corporate lawyers almost always have clauses in their contracts to prevent their clients from citing them in business decisions, for fear of a bad decision (like the one in question here) following them through their career.
If you piece all of the above together, regardless of how good it would be for the game, a Hasbro lawyer said 'no' and now WotC has to suck it up and they can't even come out and tell us why due to contracts. Meanwhile, investors get to make free money with no downside risk, soaking up large chunks of the supply do the detriment of the player base.
Thats really not true. If WotC closed the "only foil printing" loophole is exactly because that same community highly disliked to see RL reprinted in From the Vault : Relics and Duel Decks Coalition vs Phyrexia and gave negative feedback to WotC. We cannot know how many exactly of that investors /collectors uprise, but for sure you can't talk about the community as a "whole", because that's simply not true. A minority actually wants the existence of the RL for multiple reasons, and you must adress their existence in your equation (because that vocal minority was extremely relevant to make the current RL harsher as it is now).
The Reserve List is important to investors, which is a small minority of WotC's customers that hold outsized sway. The concern with chipping away at the RL is that it will somehow devalue the game as a whole and cause a mass purge of collections and an exodus from the game altogether. That's pretty stupid, but it's what the investors have lead a lot of people to believe. Investors who, btw, are so entitled that they think their investments are supposed to be free of risk.
Not sure what politics has to do with this, but your statement seems out of place. The reserve list only favors investors, who have become a minority since the creation of the game. Nowadays, those that play the game drive MTG by far and if people stopped playing the game (which won't happen anytime soon) all colletions would cease to be valuable. That is why I believe that Wizards missed an opportunity by failing to at least revise the RL. They could have made a change to the RL while at the same time allowing investors to sell their cards for a fraction of their value. Then they could have focused on the true drivers of their product (the players) but for some reason felt threatened by a group that simply has more bark than bite (Any case brought into court would ultimately be thrown out because you can't keep a company from producing its own product).
At the end of the day, I know Hasbro / Wizards won't make any changes to the RL going forward. I accepted that a long time ago and I think everyone else should as well. As usual, greed can ruin anything and this was definitely the case here.
So what's the problem? Don't you like this topic? Just pass over and have a nice day.
I'd say that there's two real things going on.
1. This thread is kind of in the wrong place. While this is technically the "rumor mill", even a short look at the other threads in this forum should indicate that it isn't 'actually' used for rumors. Most of the threads here are about spoilers. This thread actually belongs in the speculation section within the rumor mill (or even the baseless speculation section within speculation) and there are a fair amount of threads even then that had an identifiable source of a potential leak rather than "I've heard people talking about it".
2. The leak and rumor community is a bit more robust and substantial than rumors in most other areas, to the point where most "I heard people talking about it" rumors don't even register. Most of the rumors that people spend time on come from sources. People may spoil miscellaneous info on reddit threads. Some people e-mail Rudy from Alpha Investments random leaks and hints that they have heard and those that he hears multiple times are sometimes mentioned in videos. While some of these sources are fake and some are real, there is always a source.
I want to commend you for hearing a rumor from other people and actually posting on here to see if there is a specific source rather than taking it at face value. The fact that no source has been found, however, should lead you to question what you have heard. If you heard that the manager at your LGS was sent an internal memo by accident (or something like that) or that this news came from a reddit user who has supplied specific user has supplied accurate information in the past, this would be a rumor with legs. As there seems to be no such source, however, this "rumor" seems largely speculative.
If there is no source, that doesn't mean that the Reserve List isn't going away (even if I find it unlikely), of course. It just means that your hope for it to go away is not based on any actual leaks or hints at this time. If you want to have a conversation about whether the reserved list should go away or if you think that it would make sense/be cool for it to be done at a specific milestone (such as Magic's Upcoming 30th anniversary), that is again something that should go in a new thread in Speculation or Baseless Speculation.
TLDR:
1. The rumor mill forum isn't actually for this kind of rumor any more (it annoys lots of people, trust me). Use Speculation/Baseless Speculation.
2. Your initial question (were there any recent leaks to substantiate this rumor?) was answered (no). If you want to talk more about the RL and if/how it should be broken, feel free to start a new thread in Speculation/Baseless Speculation.