"Perpetually" where an effect remains on the card forever (goes to your deck/hand/graveyard/whatever, its still got -2/-2 or deathtouch or whatever)
"Seek" which is just tutoring without having to reveal or shuffle afterawrds.
and "Conjure" which is like Garth One-Eye, but creating an actual card that can sit in your had, got to the graveyard, etc, and aren't necessarily cards that are otherwise collectible in game.
Also includes 5 mono-colored, digital ability only planeswalkers.
(more images in article, but not sure how to link)
Those do indeed look difficult to do in paper. Glad they're not just incredibly random, but a little worried about the unspecified ability on Davriel - that was a thing the I disliked in Hearthstone, having cards that you had to use (or look up on some external source) to know what they did.
I'm not really seeing why most of these have to be digital only.
-Lumbering Lightshield is basically just Elite Spellbinder, how many times are you casting the same singular card repeatedly that's not Uro to see any use from that effect?
-Davriel's Withering could have just been two -1/-1 counters. Seems like this is digital only strictly because they didn't want to do weird +X/+Y counters like we had long ago. I get perpetually affects a card permanently (not sure why they didn't use that word instead) but it feels weird.
-Davriel is basically a new Urza with various effects, this makes sense.
-Plaguecrafter's Familiar feels off not having to reveal what you did it to. Seems like this would have just been in Ikoria and given a deathtouch counter.
-Subversive Acolyte is just Figure of Destiny styles of creatures, but you only get one choice. Why does this need to be digital only again? Was remembering this singular choice any worse than remembering if a creature is monstrous?
-Seek not making you reveal does make sense in digital to some degree, but....why though?
-Conjure is Hearthstone. 100% Hearthstone.
Most of what is being seen here is barely worthy of requiring digital only. I'm just not seeing the reason past dipping their toe in before they unleash a deluge of digital only nonsense, like they did with Secret Lairs or UB.
There's literally nothing in those mechanics that couldn't be made doable also in real life, with relatively easy, simples, practical and elegant solutions:
Davriel -2? Nothing different from the already existing Urza, Headmaster Academy. Just print or write out in a piece of paper all his abilities (I can even imagine that in booster packs they could just make a card token that comes always with him, with all his abilities listed, exactly like they do with lists of double-face cards or dungeon cards), then roll a D8 for get your random result. This is no more complex than what already players must do for both the commander and premier set of D&D forgotten realms.
Manor Guardian - Tutoring for a specific card without revealing what it is? Sure, nice gimmick, but nothing that wouldn't be doable in tournaments or even kitchen table games (just add a trusted third party for the search, like a judge or the LSG owner, exactly how this was needed with how Sylvan Library was worded). Unstable already proved that is not that big deal to ask to a third player of the game to do certain actions (Kindslaver, Subcontract etc)
"perpetually" effects? Just use anything as counter or marker, it's not that multiple counters with rules baggage or things that has to be tracked by being writed on a piece of paper (like the Conspiracy cards or any "choose a secret opponent" card) doesn't exist already. We even have already the emblems and all the cards with "Until the end of game" texts like Praetor's Counsel or Stigma Lasher for "perpetually" effects to track for the game.
Conjure? The most trivial, nothing more undoable than the Lesson mechanic or any "add cards outside the game" mechanic, just print the official list of all Conjurable cards and you are pretty much done.
I knew I would be angry for this, because I see some truly fun, fresh and innovative mechanics (like Davriel -2) that would absolutely blast in any EDH game and will never be EDH legal. I can (relatively) see the argument to not make all this stuff at once standard legal because it could be intimitading for new players but for eternal enfranchised players? Come on, it's a piece of cake. This could had been totally something for the casual crowd for Commander, Vintage and Legacy (the most complex formats ever), where already a typical EDH game can be full of different kinds of unique tokens to keep track, different counters to keep track or emblems to keep track, or dungeons to keep track, or random effects, or dice roll effects that need D20 and D8 and D10, or lots of effects that need to keep track with a piece of paper or app like commander damages, poison, energy, experience counters, "choose a secret number, card name or player" effects" and so on, without being that big deal.
What an opportunity truly wasted.
These are simply horrible designed cards, as the mechanics dont work in paper (but they could be changed to work in paper, slightly different).
Make it "name a card" and do it for all copies of the card as well, actually stronger, but does the same.
The planeswalker with the "offers" is just a way to hide text on a card ... the same crap they pulled with the Dungeon cards, quite literally even, this could have a reminder card like the Dungeons with all the offers writen on them, if they have to do it that way.
The better way is to design a card that actually fits its text on the card (and if you cant, its a horrific bad design for a CARD game).
There's literally nothing in those mechanics that couldn't be made doable also in real life, with relatively easy, simples, practical and elegant solutions:
"Doable" and "Reasonably playable" are too different things. All these deal with some manner of hidden information or large set randomization, which is perfect for computers but problematic in paper without opportunity for cheating or errors. In casual environments, sure there can be some hand waiving
Davriel -2? Nothing different from the already existing Urza, Headmaster Academy. Just print or write out in a piece of paper all his abilities (I can even imagine that in booster packs they could just make a card token that comes always with him, with all his abilities listed, exactly like they do with lists of double-face cards or dungeon cards), then roll a D8 for get your random result. This is no more complex than what already players must do for both the commander and premier set of D&D forgotten realms.
So, with the lists printed out, I'll need to roll 3D8 with no duplicates to get my first list and then again to get my second list. More complex than any die roller in AFG or its commander. A webapp like AskUrza would definitely streamline it, but now were involving electronics anyway. Doable, but logistically complex.
Manor Guardian - Tutoring for a specific card without revealing what it is? Sure, nice gimmick, but nothing that wouldn't be doable in tournaments or even kitchen table games (just add a trusted third party for the search, like a judge or the LSG owner, exactly how this was needed with how Sylvan Library was worded). Unstable already proved that is not that big deal to ask to a third player of the game to do certain actions (Kindslaver, Subcontract etc)
As a judge, this would be a nightmare for tournaments, because you would have to call a judge everytime you used the effect. Random bystander isn't sufficient for tournament play because then the competitors would just argue if they were really unbiased and have to call a judge anyway. The unstable cards are a bad precedent because (a) their effects were all public and (b) its silver-bordered. Additionally, this effect doesn't shuffle which means the player in paper would be able to learn the order of their deck (and cause game delays while trying to remember as much as possible) while in Arena the game just shows you the potential card without you seeing your deck or the order being impacted.
Casually doable but not in any competitive environment.
"perpetually" effects? Just use anything as counter or marker, it's not that multiple counters with rules baggage or things that has to be tracked by being writed on a piece of paper (like the Conspiracy cards or any "choose a secret opponent" card) doesn't exist already. We even have already the emblems and all the cards with "Until the end of game" texts like Praetor's Counsel or Stigma Lasher for "perpetually" effects to track for the game.
Except its only relevant to the specific card, so if your one copy with a perpertual effect gets shuffled into your library, you need a way to discern that its the card that got affected when you draw a copy of that card later. Could be done with a slip of paper slipped into the card sleeve, but then you have issues of people putting the slips in before the game/leaving them in between games that become problematic. Doable, but with logistical issues.
Conjure? The most trivial, nothing more undoable than the Lesson mechanic or any "add cards outside the game" mechanic, just print the official list of all Conjurable cards and you are pretty much done.
Except when the cards are randomly chosen from a huge subset of cards and you'd need physical copies of all possible cards that could be conjured because, again, they can be in you hand or deck. Technically possibly but logistically unreasonable.
I'm not really seeing why most of these have to be digital only.
-Lumbering Lightshield is basically just Elite Spellbinder, how many times are you casting the same singular card repeatedly that's not Uro to see any use from that effect?
You're missing that the Lightshield reveals a non-land card AT RANDOM from their hand, which you cannot do in paper without giving away the rest of their hand's contents.
"perpetually" effects? Just use anything as counter or marker, it's not that multiple counters with rules baggage or things that has to be tracked by being writed on a piece of paper (like the Conspiracy cards or any "choose a secret opponent" card) doesn't exist already. We even have already the emblems and all the cards with "Until the end of game" texts like Praetor's Counsel or Stigma Lasher for "perpetually" effects to track for the game.
I am sorry but perpetually effects could not work in paper.
If two card with the same name are shuffled from my graveyard into my library and one of the lm perpetually has flying, the game will know which one has flying when I draw it. The fact that a perpetually altered card can keep its specific traits even if it is moved into hidden zones where opponents cannot verify that you are not cheating is not replicable.
I'm not really seeing why most of these have to be digital only.
-Lumbering Lightshield is basically just Elite Spellbinder, how many times are you casting the same singular card repeatedly that's not Uro to see any use from that effect?
-Davriel's Withering could have just been two -1/-1 counters. Seems like this is digital only strictly because they didn't want to do weird +X/+Y counters like we had long ago. I get perpetually affects a card permanently (not sure why they didn't use that word instead) but it feels weird.
-Davriel is basically a new Urza with various effects, this makes sense.
-Plaguecrafter's Familiar feels off not having to reveal what you did it to. Seems like this would have just been in Ikoria and given a deathtouch counter.
-Subversive Acolyte is just Figure of Destiny styles of creatures, but you only get one choice. Why does this need to be digital only again? Was remembering this singular choice any worse than remembering if a creature is monstrous?
-Seek not making you reveal does make sense in digital to some degree, but....why though?
-Conjure is Hearthstone. 100% Hearthstone.
Most of what is being seen here is barely worthy of requiring digital only. I'm just not seeing the reason past dipping their toe in before they unleash a deluge of digital only nonsense, like they did with Secret Lairs or UB.
im with you the only thing digital only in there is seek
and a better definition for conjure you can just do a similar ability that Garth one-eye has. It’s only digital exclusive due to adding the card to your hand for reals. Rather than just casting it right away like Garth.
and the Acolyte phyrexian mode is nothing more than another loophole from the reserve list since that basically turn it into a phyrexian negator.
edit oh and “Perpetually” actual does exist in paper and that’s the words “For the rest of the game” cards praetor's council and stigma lasher for example
I'm glad i'm staying away from historic and all this *****
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
Manor Guardian - Tutoring for a specific card without revealing what it is? Sure, nice gimmick, but nothing that wouldn't be doable in tournaments or even kitchen table games (just add a trusted third party for the search, like a judge or the LSG owner, exactly how this was needed with how Sylvan Library was worded). Unstable already proved that is not that big deal to ask to a third player of the game to do certain actions (Kindslaver, Subcontract etc)
As a judge, this would be a nightmare for tournaments, because you would have to call a judge everytime you used the effect. Random bystander isn't sufficient for tournament play because then the competitors would just argue if they were really unbiased and have to call a judge anyway. The unstable cards are a bad precedent because (a) their effects were all public and (b) its silver-bordered. Additionally, this effect doesn't shuffle which means the player in paper would be able to learn the order of their deck (and cause game delays while trying to remember as much as possible) while in Arena the game just shows you the potential card without you seeing your deck or the order being impacted.
Casually doable but not in any competitive environment.
I agree that it would be difficult/impossible in a competitive environment. Even "casually doable" is debatable. Do I take a picture and text it to a friend who isn't there, who also understands enough about Magic that they can verify that a card has a MV of 2, who is also friends with the other person/people playing in the game so they can text the other friend(s) that my card was OK? Then repeat this process for every player? Every turn if the effect happens frequently? Is that friend going to keep texting back all night, even if the game goes late, or tell us to stop bothering them after the 20th text?
It doesn't take much to go from "doable" to "logistical nightmare".
"perpetually" effects? Just use anything as counter or marker, it's not that multiple counters with rules baggage or things that has to be tracked by being writed on a piece of paper (like the Conspiracy cards or any "choose a secret opponent" card) doesn't exist already. We even have already the emblems and all the cards with "Until the end of game" texts like Praetor's Counsel or Stigma Lasher for "perpetually" effects to track for the game.
I am sorry but perpetually effects could not work in paper.
If two card with the same name are shuffled from my graveyard into my library and one of the lm perpetually has flying, the game will know which one has flying when I draw it. The fact that a perpetually altered card can keep its specific traits even if it is moved into hidden zones where opponents cannot verify that you are not cheating is not replicable.
It IS doable. For example, just put an easily removable mini-sticker on your front card (or more likely, your protective shield), and you and your opponent can recognize it without actually have the marker visibile in non public zones. My god guys, I've seen much more worse and more convolute situations in EDH than this stuff, I can't believe me and my playgroups are the only genius that have literally no problem handling this situations because are already legal much worse complicated effects combined in EDH, while you all seems to not be able to handle such things. You are confirming that are right the ones saying that Wizard need to "dumb the game down", because seems that even eternal players can't handle what at my eyes (and the ones of my playgroup of friends) is perfectly doable without confusion, because we've seen much worse going on on EDH games.
It IS doable. For example, just put an easily removable mini-sticker on your front card (or more likely, your protective shield), and you and your opponent can recognize it without actually have the marker visibile in non public zones. My god guys, I've seen much more worse and more convolute situations in EDH than this stuff, I can't believe me and my playgroups are the only genius that have literally no problem handling this situations because are already legal much worse complicated effects combined in EDH, while you all seems to not be able to handle such things. You are confirming that are right the ones saying that Wizard need to "dumb the game down", because seems that even eternal players can't handle what at my eyes (and the ones of my playgroup of friends) is perfectly doable without confusion, because we've seen much worse going on on EDH games.
This is still a problem, because hidden information still opens the opportunity for cheating, less so for cards that perpetually effect things on board but we've already seen effects that give perpetual status to hidden cards in hand.
The rat says "choose a creature card in your hand and it gains deathtouch perpetually". If I play this card in my deck, I could put deathtouch "markers" on multiple cards in my deck before the game, cast the rat when its opportune and then just not reveal the card that I put the marker on at the time and play a card I drew later with that marker already on it.
As before, this abilities can with handwaving in casual, but the tracking and hidden information issues make them untenable for competitive play. Basically, the computer game framework means they can be implemented fairly in black border but they are all effectively silver-bordered in paper.
These are simply horrible designed cards, as the mechanics dont work in paper (but they could be changed to work in paper, slightly different).
Make it "name a card" and do it for all copies of the card as well, actually stronger, but does the same.
The planeswalker with the "offers" is just a way to hide text on a card ... the same crap they pulled with the Dungeon cards, quite literally even, this could have a reminder card like the Dungeons with all the offers writen on them, if they have to do it that way.
The better way is to design a card that actually fits its text on the card (and if you cant, its a horrific bad design for a CARD game).
Are you seriously saying that cards are horribly designed because they don't work in a context they weren't designed to work in? Might as well say Commander's Sphere is horribly designed because it doesn't work in standard. And all silver border cards are horribly designed for the same reason. It's madness. Sometimes things are made that were designed for someone other than you. Deal with it.
Please, mill me. Mill my important cards. Mill my lands. Mill it all. Because I will still deal 20 damage before you can mill 45 cards most every time.
"perpetually" effects? Just use anything as counter or marker, it's not that multiple counters with rules baggage or things that has to be tracked by being writed on a piece of paper (like the Conspiracy cards or any "choose a secret opponent" card) doesn't exist already. We even have already the emblems and all the cards with "Until the end of game" texts like Praetor's Counsel or Stigma Lasher for "perpetually" effects to track for the game.
I am sorry but perpetually effects could not work in paper.
If two card with the same name are shuffled from my graveyard into my library and one of the lm perpetually has flying, the game will know which one has flying when I draw it. The fact that a perpetually altered card can keep its specific traits even if it is moved into hidden zones where opponents cannot verify that you are not cheating is not replicable.
It IS doable. For example, just put an easily removable mini-sticker on your front card (or more likely, your protective shield), and you and your opponent can recognize it without actually have the marker visibile in non public zones. My god guys, I've seen much more worse and more convolute situations in EDH than this stuff, I can't believe me and my playgroups are the only genius that have literally no problem handling this situations because are already legal much worse complicated effects combined in EDH, while you all seems to not be able to handle such things. You are confirming that are right the ones saying that Wizard need to "dumb the game down", because seems that even eternal players can't handle what at my eyes (and the ones of my playgroup of friends) is perfectly doable without confusion, because we've seen much worse going on on EDH games.
Congratulations, you've just marked a card and are now disqualified from the tournament.
So the main design space opened up by being digital is "people can't cheat"? I guess that makes sense; it's fairly disappointing but when the highest levels of play are saturated with cheaters it's the only way.
[quote from="Evil Never Dies »" url="/forums/magic-fundamentals/the-rumor-mill/823077-digital-only-cards-revealed?comment=13"]
If I play this card in my deck, I could put deathtouch "markers" on multiple cards in my deck before the game, cast the rat when its opportune and then just not reveal the card that I put the marker on at the time and play a card I drew later with that marker already on it.
This objection is totally nonsense. It's the same "trust" you give to your opponents assuming they won't play more than x4 copies of a single card (or in EDH breaking the singleton rule). With your argument, I could say that I could play 5 or 6 copies of Lightning Bolt or a crucial combo piece just to increase the rate to see it and simply not playing it if I already played my x4 copies.
That's why in serious tournaments like a PTQ, all decks are actually checked before people even start the game.
As before, this abilities can with handwaving in casual, but the tracking and hidden information issues make them untenable for competitive play. Basically, the computer game framework means they can be implemented fairly in black border but they are all effectively silver-bordered in paper.
Cards with "hidden information" issues are a thing in eternal formats. Goblin Game is a thing. Wheel of Misfortune is a thing. Negan, the Cold Blooded is a thing and so on. Cards with "hidden agenda" ability are a thing. The fact the abilities aren't practical (because you need a literal piece of paper and a pen or in case of Commander AFR a complete different sets of D10, D12, D8 etc) doesn't mean that they are not doable and viable and ejoyable for the casual crowd in black border games.
Are you seriously saying that cards are horribly designed because they don't work in a context they weren't designed to work in? Might as well say Commander's Sphere is horribly designed because it doesn't work in standard. And all silver border cards are horribly designed for the same reason. It's madness. Sometimes things are made that were designed for someone other than you. Deal with it.
Yes specific commander effects are bad designs.
Its way better if you have card designs that work in general, without context of like "draft only" , "commander only" , "digital only".
To give you an example:
Fixed Sphere 3
Artifact T: Add one mana of any color of a color identity of a face up card you own.
Sacrifice this: Draw a card.
This way it works with mechanics that make the card revealed and not specific to the commander.
Coupling a card to a specific context is parasitic and simply inferior to doing the same design in a slightly different version that works without the parasitic context.
Fixed Sphere 3
Artifact
T: Add one mana of any color of a color identity of a face up card you own.
Sacrifice this: Draw a card.
This way it works with mechanics that make the card revealed and not specific to the commander.
And what you gained exactly, design-wise? Commander is currently the only one format that cares about the color identity concept anyway ( exactly because the color identity is intrinsecally bounded and imply the existence of a commander that cares about it)
[quote from="Rosy Dumplings »" url="/forums/magic-fundamentals/the-rumor-mill/823077-digital-only-cards-revealed?comment=9"][quote from="Evil Never Dies »" url="/forums/magic-fundamentals/the-rumor-mill/823077-digital-only-cards-revealed?comment=6"]
Congratulations, you've just marked a card and are now disqualified from the tournament.
Congratulations on not reading what people actually write: For example, just put an easily removable mini-sticker on your front card
I work in a newspaper shop and all the time we put sticker on books and products that once they are removed is like they never been there in the first place (not even obsesssed collectors that want their book totally immaculate complain that). Obviously tournament rules would need a slight change in that case (which would be forbidden to put stickers before the game starts but accepted if a "perpetually effect" card need to be reshuffled in deck and naturally, said sticker removed at the end of the game on front of the public eyes of everybody.)
I hope I don't even have to specify that obviously you would put the sticker on the front part of the card, and not the back part (because it seems I am overstimating the cleverness of humanity seeing how is this thread going).
Cards with "hidden information" issues are a thing in eternal formats. Goblin Game is a thing. Wheel of Misfortune is a thing. Negan, the Cold Blooded is a thing and so on. Cards with "hidden agenda" ability are a thing. The fact the abilities aren't practical (because you need a literal piece of paper and a pen or in case of Commander AFR a complete different sets of D10, D12, D8 etc) doesn't mean that they are not doable and viable and ejoyable for the casual crowd in black border games.
Goblin Game, Wheel of Misfortune, and Negan all secretly choose and immediately reveal the choice. Hidden Agendas are set outside the game with their choice noted on them. All easily distinguishable to know what choice what made for what when.
"Hidden information", in the context I've given, means a choice made that can be later manipulated (or earlier) without the other player having a way to know its been done. This is why every search effect that specifies a card quality (i.e. not a Demonic Tutor) specifies that you reveal it to your opponent first - to prove that you followed the rules of the card. If I'm adding and effect to a card in my hand, you have know way to know what card I actually manipulated and if I actually followed the rules as I should have.
Again, speaking as someone who has judged competitive events, these wouldn't work in tournaments because there is too much opportunity for error - intentional or otherwise - that can't be easily spotted or easily unwound.
"Perpetually" where an effect remains on the card forever (goes to your deck/hand/graveyard/whatever, its still got -2/-2 or deathtouch or whatever)
"Seek" which is just tutoring without having to reveal or shuffle afterawrds.
and "Conjure" which is like Garth One-Eye, but creating an actual card that can sit in your had, got to the graveyard, etc, and aren't necessarily cards that are otherwise collectible in game.
Also includes 5 mono-colored, digital ability only planeswalkers.
(more images in article, but not sure how to link)
-Lumbering Lightshield is basically just Elite Spellbinder, how many times are you casting the same singular card repeatedly that's not Uro to see any use from that effect?
-Davriel's Withering could have just been two -1/-1 counters. Seems like this is digital only strictly because they didn't want to do weird +X/+Y counters like we had long ago. I get perpetually affects a card permanently (not sure why they didn't use that word instead) but it feels weird.
-Davriel is basically a new Urza with various effects, this makes sense.
-Plaguecrafter's Familiar feels off not having to reveal what you did it to. Seems like this would have just been in Ikoria and given a deathtouch counter.
-Subversive Acolyte is just Figure of Destiny styles of creatures, but you only get one choice. Why does this need to be digital only again? Was remembering this singular choice any worse than remembering if a creature is monstrous?
-Seek not making you reveal does make sense in digital to some degree, but....why though?
-Conjure is Hearthstone. 100% Hearthstone.
Most of what is being seen here is barely worthy of requiring digital only. I'm just not seeing the reason past dipping their toe in before they unleash a deluge of digital only nonsense, like they did with Secret Lairs or UB.
Davriel -2? Nothing different from the already existing Urza, Headmaster Academy. Just print or write out in a piece of paper all his abilities (I can even imagine that in booster packs they could just make a card token that comes always with him, with all his abilities listed, exactly like they do with lists of double-face cards or dungeon cards), then roll a D8 for get your random result. This is no more complex than what already players must do for both the commander and premier set of D&D forgotten realms.
Manor Guardian - Tutoring for a specific card without revealing what it is? Sure, nice gimmick, but nothing that wouldn't be doable in tournaments or even kitchen table games (just add a trusted third party for the search, like a judge or the LSG owner, exactly how this was needed with how Sylvan Library was worded). Unstable already proved that is not that big deal to ask to a third player of the game to do certain actions (Kindslaver, Subcontract etc)
"perpetually" effects? Just use anything as counter or marker, it's not that multiple counters with rules baggage or things that has to be tracked by being writed on a piece of paper (like the Conspiracy cards or any "choose a secret opponent" card) doesn't exist already. We even have already the emblems and all the cards with "Until the end of game" texts like Praetor's Counsel or Stigma Lasher for "perpetually" effects to track for the game.
Conjure? The most trivial, nothing more undoable than the Lesson mechanic or any "add cards outside the game" mechanic, just print the official list of all Conjurable cards and you are pretty much done.
I knew I would be angry for this, because I see some truly fun, fresh and innovative mechanics (like Davriel -2) that would absolutely blast in any EDH game and will never be EDH legal. I can (relatively) see the argument to not make all this stuff at once standard legal because it could be intimitading for new players but for eternal enfranchised players? Come on, it's a piece of cake. This could had been totally something for the casual crowd for Commander, Vintage and Legacy (the most complex formats ever), where already a typical EDH game can be full of different kinds of unique tokens to keep track, different counters to keep track or emblems to keep track, or dungeons to keep track, or random effects, or dice roll effects that need D20 and D8 and D10, or lots of effects that need to keep track with a piece of paper or app like commander damages, poison, energy, experience counters, "choose a secret number, card name or player" effects" and so on, without being that big deal.
What an opportunity truly wasted.
Make it "name a card" and do it for all copies of the card as well, actually stronger, but does the same.
The planeswalker with the "offers" is just a way to hide text on a card ... the same crap they pulled with the Dungeon cards, quite literally even, this could have a reminder card like the Dungeons with all the offers writen on them, if they have to do it that way.
The better way is to design a card that actually fits its text on the card (and if you cant, its a horrific bad design for a CARD game).
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
"Doable" and "Reasonably playable" are too different things. All these deal with some manner of hidden information or large set randomization, which is perfect for computers but problematic in paper without opportunity for cheating or errors. In casual environments, sure there can be some hand waiving
So, with the lists printed out, I'll need to roll 3D8 with no duplicates to get my first list and then again to get my second list. More complex than any die roller in AFG or its commander. A webapp like AskUrza would definitely streamline it, but now were involving electronics anyway. Doable, but logistically complex.
As a judge, this would be a nightmare for tournaments, because you would have to call a judge everytime you used the effect. Random bystander isn't sufficient for tournament play because then the competitors would just argue if they were really unbiased and have to call a judge anyway. The unstable cards are a bad precedent because (a) their effects were all public and (b) its silver-bordered. Additionally, this effect doesn't shuffle which means the player in paper would be able to learn the order of their deck (and cause game delays while trying to remember as much as possible) while in Arena the game just shows you the potential card without you seeing your deck or the order being impacted.
Casually doable but not in any competitive environment.
Except its only relevant to the specific card, so if your one copy with a perpertual effect gets shuffled into your library, you need a way to discern that its the card that got affected when you draw a copy of that card later. Could be done with a slip of paper slipped into the card sleeve, but then you have issues of people putting the slips in before the game/leaving them in between games that become problematic. Doable, but with logistical issues.
Except when the cards are randomly chosen from a huge subset of cards and you'd need physical copies of all possible cards that could be conjured because, again, they can be in you hand or deck. Technically possibly but logistically unreasonable.
You're missing that the Lightshield reveals a non-land card AT RANDOM from their hand, which you cannot do in paper without giving away the rest of their hand's contents.
I am sorry but perpetually effects could not work in paper.
If two card with the same name are shuffled from my graveyard into my library and one of the lm perpetually has flying, the game will know which one has flying when I draw it. The fact that a perpetually altered card can keep its specific traits even if it is moved into hidden zones where opponents cannot verify that you are not cheating is not replicable.
im with you the only thing digital only in there is seek
and a better definition for conjure you can just do a similar ability that Garth one-eye has. It’s only digital exclusive due to adding the card to your hand for reals. Rather than just casting it right away like Garth.
and the Acolyte phyrexian mode is nothing more than another loophole from the reserve list since that basically turn it into a phyrexian negator.
edit oh and “Perpetually” actual does exist in paper and that’s the words “For the rest of the game” cards praetor's council and stigma lasher for example
I agree that it would be difficult/impossible in a competitive environment. Even "casually doable" is debatable. Do I take a picture and text it to a friend who isn't there, who also understands enough about Magic that they can verify that a card has a MV of 2, who is also friends with the other person/people playing in the game so they can text the other friend(s) that my card was OK? Then repeat this process for every player? Every turn if the effect happens frequently? Is that friend going to keep texting back all night, even if the game goes late, or tell us to stop bothering them after the 20th text?
It doesn't take much to go from "doable" to "logistical nightmare".
It IS doable. For example, just put an easily removable mini-sticker on your front card (or more likely, your protective shield), and you and your opponent can recognize it without actually have the marker visibile in non public zones. My god guys, I've seen much more worse and more convolute situations in EDH than this stuff, I can't believe me and my playgroups are the only genius that have literally no problem handling this situations because are already legal much worse complicated effects combined in EDH, while you all seems to not be able to handle such things. You are confirming that are right the ones saying that Wizard need to "dumb the game down", because seems that even eternal players can't handle what at my eyes (and the ones of my playgroup of friends) is perfectly doable without confusion, because we've seen much worse going on on EDH games.
This is still a problem, because hidden information still opens the opportunity for cheating, less so for cards that perpetually effect things on board but we've already seen effects that give perpetual status to hidden cards in hand.
The rat says "choose a creature card in your hand and it gains deathtouch perpetually". If I play this card in my deck, I could put deathtouch "markers" on multiple cards in my deck before the game, cast the rat when its opportune and then just not reveal the card that I put the marker on at the time and play a card I drew later with that marker already on it.
As before, this abilities can with handwaving in casual, but the tracking and hidden information issues make them untenable for competitive play. Basically, the computer game framework means they can be implemented fairly in black border but they are all effectively silver-bordered in paper.
This objection is totally nonsense. It's the same "trust" you give to your opponents assuming they won't play more than x4 copies of a single card (or in EDH breaking the singleton rule). With your argument, I could say that I could play 5 or 6 copies of Lightning Bolt or a crucial combo piece just to increase the rate to see it and simply not playing it if I already played my x4 copies.
That's why in serious tournaments like a PTQ, all decks are actually checked before people even start the game.
Cards with "hidden information" issues are a thing in eternal formats. Goblin Game is a thing. Wheel of Misfortune is a thing. Negan, the Cold Blooded is a thing and so on. Cards with "hidden agenda" ability are a thing. The fact the abilities aren't practical (because you need a literal piece of paper and a pen or in case of Commander AFR a complete different sets of D10, D12, D8 etc) doesn't mean that they are not doable and viable and ejoyable for the casual crowd in black border games.
Yes specific commander effects are bad designs.
Its way better if you have card designs that work in general, without context of like "draft only" , "commander only" , "digital only".
To give you an example:
Fixed Sphere 3
Artifact
T: Add one mana of any color of a color identity of a face up card you own.
Sacrifice this: Draw a card.
This way it works with mechanics that make the card revealed and not specific to the commander.
Coupling a card to a specific context is parasitic and simply inferior to doing the same design in a slightly different version that works without the parasitic context.
Its not rocket science.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
And what you gained exactly, design-wise? Commander is currently the only one format that cares about the color identity concept anyway ( exactly because the color identity is intrinsecally bounded and imply the existence of a commander that cares about it)
That is in paper look at Praetor's Counsel and stigma lasher
Congratulations on not reading what people actually write:
For example, just put an easily removable mini-sticker on your front card
I work in a newspaper shop and all the time we put sticker on books and products that once they are removed is like they never been there in the first place (not even obsesssed collectors that want their book totally immaculate complain that). Obviously tournament rules would need a slight change in that case (which would be forbidden to put stickers before the game starts but accepted if a "perpetually effect" card need to be reshuffled in deck and naturally, said sticker removed at the end of the game on front of the public eyes of everybody.)
I hope I don't even have to specify that obviously you would put the sticker on the front part of the card, and not the back part (because it seems I am overstimating the cleverness of humanity seeing how is this thread going).
Exactly what I said.
Goblin Game, Wheel of Misfortune, and Negan all secretly choose and immediately reveal the choice. Hidden Agendas are set outside the game with their choice noted on them. All easily distinguishable to know what choice what made for what when.
"Hidden information", in the context I've given, means a choice made that can be later manipulated (or earlier) without the other player having a way to know its been done. This is why every search effect that specifies a card quality (i.e. not a Demonic Tutor) specifies that you reveal it to your opponent first - to prove that you followed the rules of the card. If I'm adding and effect to a card in my hand, you have know way to know what card I actually manipulated and if I actually followed the rules as I should have.
Again, speaking as someone who has judged competitive events, these wouldn't work in tournaments because there is too much opportunity for error - intentional or otherwise - that can't be easily spotted or easily unwound.