I mean its a great way to test ideas in a practical environment without truly corrupting the physical product. This prevents feel bad moments if something experimental needs a ban.
Its also ******* obnoxious if something great gets added and then never gets printed in paper.
This in turn further divides digital from paper instead of homegenizing it. That can be frustrating and confusing to both old and new players, or players changing mediums. Flawless transitions between digital and paper would be more sound for both mediums of gameplay.
Ultimately it wont matter. We'll keep consuming.
Kinda like how Hullbreacher getting banned in EDH / Commander proves that the format needs to have a separate ban list for cEDH instead of trying to homogenize it into just one?
Damn i wonder for how long people will cry for hullbreacher. How long it lasted for paradox engine?
People are still complaining about Paradox Engine. What these people don't realize is all a separate banlist does is make two cEDH metas, one per banlist.
I mean its a great way to test ideas in a practical environment without truly corrupting the physical product. This prevents feel bad moments if something experimental needs a ban.
Its also ******* obnoxious if something great gets added and then never gets printed in paper.
This in turn further divides digital from paper instead of homegenizing it. That can be frustrating and confusing to both old and new players, or players changing mediums. Flawless transitions between digital and paper would be more sound for both mediums of gameplay.
Ultimately it wont matter. We'll keep consuming.
Kinda like how Hullbreacher getting banned in EDH / Commander proves that the format needs to have a separate ban list for cEDH instead of trying to homogenize it into just one?
Damn i wonder for how long people will cry for hullbreacher. How long it lasted for paradox engine?
People are still complaining about Paradox Engine. What these people don't realize is all a separate banlist does is make two cEDH metas, one per banlist.
I personally think that a separate banlist could work for cEDH... but only in one direction.
If cEDH has a list of cards ONLY REMOVED from the normal banlist (AKA you can only use that card legally if you are willing to face truly degenerate decks), I actually see that as a somewhat workable solution as the people who want to ramp up their power would not be encouraged to mingle with casual players.
If you want to use a cEDH banlist to ban additional cards in cEDH that the rules committee refuses to touch (*cough*oracle*cough*), though, that is a flat-out dead end. It results in people who want to make the most degenerate decks playing in casual games where the more stringent bans aren’t enforced. Even with rule 0 in play, that is a perverse incentive to give power-seeking players.
"Perpetually" where an effect remains on the card forever (goes to your deck/hand/graveyard/whatever, its still got -2/-2 or deathtouch or whatever)
"Seek" which is just tutoring without having to reveal or shuffle afterawrds.
and "Conjure" which is like Garth One-Eye, but creating an actual card that can sit in your had, got to the graveyard, etc, and aren't necessarily cards that are otherwise collectible in game.
Also includes 5 mono-colored, digital ability only planeswalkers (see article for Davriel).
In my opinion when MaRo says “ The digital only cards only work on digital. They aren’t cards we can make in paper”, it probably means that they literally can’t work in paper magic, pretty much like the astral cards (for reference https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/astral-cards-2009-02-12).
This is exactly what will most likely be done. Effects that are just too wonky, random, or cumbersome to do in paper Magic. As a person who plays a ton of Shandalar, the idea of digital only cards that don't really work IRL doesn't bother me in the least. Besides these would be the kinds of cards that people hate on IRL because they bring "too much variance to the game". And lord forbid that the digital and paper games have features that differentiate them from one another than just the physical attributes.
One commenter made a statement about the difficulty of transitioning from digital to paper and vice versa if there are differences between them. If that's a problem for you then maybe gaming is above your paygrade, just how pathetic do you think people are(rhetorical, please do not reply)?
It's not the end of all things people. If I had a dollar for every time someone said "X is killing the game" I'd be a rich man today.
It really doesn't matter. In the end it'll have little impact on how people play. And when the next thing that will supposedly kill the game comes along everyone will forget about this as their outrage will have a new target. Take The Walking Dead Secret Lair, no one says anything about that anymore, and all the people who claimed that they'd never play against an opponent that plays those cards has most likely played, or will play an opponent using them or other like products in the future.
Bad design, over powered crap and unbalanced metas will be far more detrimental to the health of the game than any side product.
the new designs suck
The mechanics are almost never relevant and could have been done paper-friendly with hardly any difference.
Davriel is horrific - who wants random abilities that are so varied.
Well this seems utterly crap for the game as a whole. But at least unlike the crossovers, I can just ignore these and pretend they don't exist. It's not like I'll ever see one.
Well this seems utterly crap for the game as a whole. But at least unlike the crossovers, I can just ignore these and pretend they don't exist. It's not like I'll ever see one.
I have the exact opposite feeling. I love some of the cards spoiled (Like Davriel), it's perfectly doable in paper and I hate that I'm forced each time to print a proxy version of it as the only way to have it and ask playgroup if they are fine with it (and probably won't), instead of having it as default accepted and legal in EDH.
And the “Perpetually” I would agree… If “For the rest of the game” didn't exist on a couple/few cards Praetor's Counsel and stigma lasher for example.
I'm having the same trouble honestly. It's like every heavily enfranchised Magic player is suddendly regressed as a newbie of the game that isn't able to handle even a really easy and simple thing as to print a list, roll a dice and tracking a basic effect according to the result.
And the “Perpetually” I would agree… If “For the rest of the game” didn't exist on a couple/few cards Praetor's Counsel and stigma lasher for example.
Except those abilities affect the entire game state and do so publicly.
Perpetual statuses affect a single copy of a card in every zone, public or hidden. If you put perpetual -3/-3 on a creature I control and it gets returned to my hand, the specific card needs to be marked so that I can't replay it and say "No, its different that the other one, I just had another copy in my hand."
If I'm playing with sleeves, I can slip a note into the sleeve to mark it, but theres always the possibility with positive effects of someone premarking cards in their deck to try to cheat effect that add perpetual positive statuses to card in hand or other hidden zones.
If I'm playing with sleeves, I can slip a note into the sleeve to mark it, but theres always the possibility with positive effects of someone premarking cards in their deck to try to cheat effect that add perpetual positive statuses to card in hand or other hidden zones.
Oh please, not again with this argument, it's the same pointless complain that people made with the Companion mechanic.
If I want to cheat, I could play more than x4 copies (or more than a single copy in EDH) of any card in constructed formats and just hide the extra copies if I already played or revealed the legal amount. So what? the x4 or singleton limit rule doesn't work anymore just because we don't check all the time what the opponent is actually playing in his deck? It's the same thing, literally no different problem. If you can solve the x4 copies problem, you solve identically also the marker problem with the same solution, whats the big deal?
Well this seems utterly crap for the game as a whole. But at least unlike the crossovers, I can just ignore these and pretend they don't exist. It's not like I'll ever see one.
I have the exact opposite feeling. I love some of the cards spoiled (Like Davriel), it's perfectly doable in paper and I hate that I'm forced each time to print a proxy version of it as the only way to have it and ask playgroup if they are fine with it (and probably won't), instead of having it as default accepted and legal in EDH.
isn't it obvious that they are trying to more and more divorce paper and digital mtg? it's not necesarily a bad thing, for example having "eternal" format that uses all cards available on digital platform is very good since it gives players something to do with their digital objects when they rotate out of standard. but i would say that gimmickiness of those mechanics seem to serve only the purpose of not being able to do them effectively in paper although i would need to see all the cards first before final judgement.
I Hate this new set. Here have random way to get cards to hand. What? You get OG duals sort of...dumb.
I feel like because of Covid Wizards is like at all the money we got. If we cut out LGS of the picture we get to keep all that money. Let's start moving to full digital. Screw you LGS.
I Hate this new set. Here have random way to get cards to hand. What? You get OG duals sort of...dumb.
I feel like because of Covid Wizards is like at all the money we got. If we cut out LGS of the picture we get to keep all that money. Let's start moving to full digital. Screw you LGS.
Oh for goodness sake! They're not going to go full digital, at least not anytime soon. The paper game is a cash cow. The fact that some digital card can randomly give you an OG dual for a game isn't what's killing LGSs. People seem to forget that on MGTO you can play with all the Reserved List cards you want. Now they port over a little of that to Arena and all the sudden it's doomsday for paper Magic. There are so many players with physical cards that would never give up the game for a digital platform. WOTC could go under tomorrow and most players I know have enough cards or access to cards to never need new product for the rest of their lives. Old School 93/94 and Pre-Modern are proof that the game can and will have life beyond WOTC.
I do however concur that WOTC could be a better ally to the LGS.
Isn't Shandalar one of the worlds we'll be visiting in the near-ish future? These "random" cards seem to be a nod to the old Micropose game. I can imagine that as a designer, digital space opens up design ideas that the paper game just couldn't support logistically. It's interesting to see that in action. I think they're being a bit conservative from what I've seen so far.
Well this seems utterly crap for the game as a whole. But at least unlike the crossovers, I can just ignore these and pretend they don't exist. It's not like I'll ever see one.
I have the exact opposite feeling. I love some of the cards spoiled (Like Davriel), it's perfectly doable in paper and I hate that I'm forced each time to print a proxy version of it as the only way to have it and ask playgroup if they are fine with it (and probably won't), instead of having it as default accepted and legal in EDH.
isn't it obvious that they are trying to more and more divorce paper and digital mtg? it's not necesarily a bad thing, for example having "eternal" format that uses all cards available on digital platform is very good since it gives players something to do with their digital objects when they rotate out of standard. but i would say that gimmickiness of those mechanics seem to serve only the purpose of not being able to do them effectively in paper although i would need to see all the cards first before final judgement.
I would like to have something to do with my real standard cardboard after they rotate out. If they cant comply with that then I want them to get rid entirely of standard, and make that thing full digital, so the standard sets are avaible only in digital format. And if some of these cards are really worth of a GATHERING with old wizards, meaning that they are good enough to compete with somenthing like the gorgeous force of will, then only then, they would be reprinted in some expensive modern eternal horizon or eternal masters or modern masters. So at this point the should print only legacy reprints, and leave the fun new morally correct stuff for the kiddies for them to play in theirs new gizmos.
I Hate this new set. Here have random way to get cards to hand. What? You get OG duals sort of...dumb.
I feel like because of Covid Wizards is like at all the money we got. If we cut out LGS of the picture we get to keep all that money. Let's start moving to full digital. Screw you LGS.
Oh for goodness sake! They're not going to go full digital, at least not anytime soon.
Apparently you can not read the whole sentence so here it is simpler for you.
And paper makes them more money. People thinking magic is going full (or thinking they are staring too) sound as smart as the people who said we won't see Garruk again after Avacyn Restored. If anything this set shows they don't think arena is making enough money.
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“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
And the “Perpetually” I would agree… If “For the rest of the game” didn't exist on a couple/few cards Praetor's Counsel and stigma lasher for example.
They've already spoiled uses of "perpetually" that do not work with just a change to "for the rest of the game." Also, none of the existing "for the rest of the game" effects in paper deal with cards gaining something that lasts for the rest of the game even as they change zones including hidden zones.
Yes, Davriel could work like Urza headmaster, which is a silver-border card that directs folks to an internet site.
As you already mentioned, "seek" doesn't work.
It's not that every single one of these cards would be impossible in paper. It's that collectively these are a bunch of new abilities that all play with the game in a way that makes them rather simple to implement in digital but would either be extraordinarily complicated, prone to cheating, prone to mistake, or otherwise too cumbersome to all implement in paper.
White had card draw, albeit subpar, early in the game in the form of Truce and Armistice, among others, excluding cantrips. Blue also had direct damage at one point. Black could kill off artifacts (Gate to Phyrexia and Phyrexian Tribute).
It's not that it can't happen, it's just that it's a rare thing and when it does happen then there's usually a catch affiliated with that particular colour's dynamics and philosophy.
'buster
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'buster
HR Analyst. Gamer. Activist | Fearless, and forthright | Aggro-control is a mindset. Elspeth and Jhoira rock my world.
White had card draw, albeit subpar, early in the game in the form of Truce and Armistice, among others, excluding cantrips. Blue also had direct damage at one point. Black could kill off artifacts (Gate to Phyrexia and Phyrexian Tribute).
It's not that it can't happen, it's just that it's a rare thing and when it does happen then there's usually a catch affiliated with that particular colour's dynamics and philosophy.
'buster
Seems you are confusing what are effectively "rare effects" bur incolor pie and what are rare effect that are rare exactly because they were color pie breaks and error designs.
Early magic is experimentation of unexperienced designers, and therefore, full of errors that cannot be taken as precedents for anything in the present or future.
If they wanted to test unique effects, they shouldn't have made desirable characters with new desirable artwork as the cards. What an absurd concept entirely. People have been waiting for Kiora and Davriel, and they pull this exclusion crap? Screw off. And now it's a giant uphill battle for their incompetence.
STOP trying to make digital happen wotc, it's not happening.
Well this seems utterly crap for the game as a whole. But at least unlike the crossovers, I can just ignore these and pretend they don't exist. It's not like I'll ever see one.
I have the exact opposite feeling. I love some of the cards spoiled (Like Davriel), it's perfectly doable in paper and I hate that I'm forced each time to print a proxy version of it as the only way to have it and ask playgroup if they are fine with it (and probably won't), instead of having it as default accepted and legal in EDH.
isn't it obvious that they are trying to more and more divorce paper and digital mtg? it's not necesarily a bad thing, for example having "eternal" format that uses all cards available on digital platform is very good since it gives players something to do with their digital objects when they rotate out of standard. but i would say that gimmickiness of those mechanics seem to serve only the purpose of not being able to do them effectively in paper although i would need to see all the cards first before final judgement.
I would like to have something to do with my real standard cardboard after they rotate out. If they cant comply with that then I want them to get rid entirely of standard, and make that thing full digital, so the standard sets are avaible only in digital format. And if some of these cards are really worth of a GATHERING with old wizards, meaning that they are good enough to compete with somenthing like the gorgeous force of will, then only then, they would be reprinted in some expensive modern eternal horizon or eternal masters or modern masters. So at this point the should print only legacy reprints, and leave the fun new morally correct stuff for the kiddies for them to play in theirs new gizmos.
making standard digital only is not really possible without abandoning nonrotating paper formats (or drasticaly redefining how stnadard works) which are the driving force of expensive reprints sets. without new cards entering those formats cardpools their metagame will stagnate and people will lose interest. they don't want to lose this market.
I personally think that a separate banlist could work for cEDH... but only in one direction.
If cEDH has a list of cards ONLY REMOVED from the normal banlist (AKA you can only use that card legally if you are willing to face truly degenerate decks), I actually see that as a somewhat workable solution as the people who want to ramp up their power would not be encouraged to mingle with casual players.
If you want to use a cEDH banlist to ban additional cards in cEDH that the rules committee refuses to touch (*cough*oracle*cough*), though, that is a flat-out dead end. It results in people who want to make the most degenerate decks playing in casual games where the more stringent bans aren’t enforced. Even with rule 0 in play, that is a perverse incentive to give power-seeking players.
"Perpetually" where an effect remains on the card forever (goes to your deck/hand/graveyard/whatever, its still got -2/-2 or deathtouch or whatever)
"Seek" which is just tutoring without having to reveal or shuffle afterawrds.
and "Conjure" which is like Garth One-Eye, but creating an actual card that can sit in your had, got to the graveyard, etc, and aren't necessarily cards that are otherwise collectible in game.
Also includes 5 mono-colored, digital ability only planeswalkers (see article for Davriel).
This is exactly what will most likely be done. Effects that are just too wonky, random, or cumbersome to do in paper Magic. As a person who plays a ton of Shandalar, the idea of digital only cards that don't really work IRL doesn't bother me in the least. Besides these would be the kinds of cards that people hate on IRL because they bring "too much variance to the game". And lord forbid that the digital and paper games have features that differentiate them from one another than just the physical attributes.
One commenter made a statement about the difficulty of transitioning from digital to paper and vice versa if there are differences between them. If that's a problem for you then maybe gaming is above your paygrade, just how pathetic do you think people are(rhetorical, please do not reply)?
It's not the end of all things people. If I had a dollar for every time someone said "X is killing the game" I'd be a rich man today.
It really doesn't matter. In the end it'll have little impact on how people play. And when the next thing that will supposedly kill the game comes along everyone will forget about this as their outrage will have a new target. Take The Walking Dead Secret Lair, no one says anything about that anymore, and all the people who claimed that they'd never play against an opponent that plays those cards has most likely played, or will play an opponent using them or other like products in the future.
Bad design, over powered crap and unbalanced metas will be far more detrimental to the health of the game than any side product.
The mechanics are almost never relevant and could have been done paper-friendly with hardly any difference.
Davriel is horrific - who wants random abilities that are so varied.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
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My 1570 card cube (no longer updated)
My 415 Peasant+ Artifact and Enchantment Cube
Ever-Expanding "Just throw it in" cube.
I have the exact opposite feeling. I love some of the cards spoiled (Like Davriel), it's perfectly doable in paper and I hate that I'm forced each time to print a proxy version of it as the only way to have it and ask playgroup if they are fine with it (and probably won't), instead of having it as default accepted and legal in EDH.
conjure: Garth one-eye is the paper way to do that you just immediately cast rather than adding to hand
Davrial: Isn't the -2 just a persudo urza, academy headmaster
And the “Perpetually” I would agree… If “For the rest of the game” didn't exist on a couple/few cards Praetor's Counsel and stigma lasher for example.
I'm having the same trouble honestly. It's like every heavily enfranchised Magic player is suddendly regressed as a newbie of the game that isn't able to handle even a really easy and simple thing as to print a list, roll a dice and tracking a basic effect according to the result.
Except those abilities affect the entire game state and do so publicly.
Perpetual statuses affect a single copy of a card in every zone, public or hidden. If you put perpetual -3/-3 on a creature I control and it gets returned to my hand, the specific card needs to be marked so that I can't replay it and say "No, its different that the other one, I just had another copy in my hand."
If I'm playing with sleeves, I can slip a note into the sleeve to mark it, but theres always the possibility with positive effects of someone premarking cards in their deck to try to cheat effect that add perpetual positive statuses to card in hand or other hidden zones.
Oh please, not again with this argument, it's the same pointless complain that people made with the Companion mechanic.
If I want to cheat, I could play more than x4 copies (or more than a single copy in EDH) of any card in constructed formats and just hide the extra copies if I already played or revealed the legal amount. So what? the x4 or singleton limit rule doesn't work anymore just because we don't check all the time what the opponent is actually playing in his deck? It's the same thing, literally no different problem. If you can solve the x4 copies problem, you solve identically also the marker problem with the same solution, whats the big deal?
I feel like because of Covid Wizards is like at all the money we got. If we cut out LGS of the picture we get to keep all that money. Let's start moving to full digital. Screw you LGS.
Oh for goodness sake! They're not going to go full digital, at least not anytime soon. The paper game is a cash cow. The fact that some digital card can randomly give you an OG dual for a game isn't what's killing LGSs. People seem to forget that on MGTO you can play with all the Reserved List cards you want. Now they port over a little of that to Arena and all the sudden it's doomsday for paper Magic. There are so many players with physical cards that would never give up the game for a digital platform. WOTC could go under tomorrow and most players I know have enough cards or access to cards to never need new product for the rest of their lives. Old School 93/94 and Pre-Modern are proof that the game can and will have life beyond WOTC.
I do however concur that WOTC could be a better ally to the LGS.
Isn't Shandalar one of the worlds we'll be visiting in the near-ish future? These "random" cards seem to be a nod to the old Micropose game. I can imagine that as a designer, digital space opens up design ideas that the paper game just couldn't support logistically. It's interesting to see that in action. I think they're being a bit conservative from what I've seen so far.
I would like to have something to do with my real standard cardboard after they rotate out. If they cant comply with that then I want them to get rid entirely of standard, and make that thing full digital, so the standard sets are avaible only in digital format. And if some of these cards are really worth of a GATHERING with old wizards, meaning that they are good enough to compete with somenthing like the gorgeous force of will, then only then, they would be reprinted in some expensive modern eternal horizon or eternal masters or modern masters. So at this point the should print only legacy reprints, and leave the fun new morally correct stuff for the kiddies for them to play in theirs new gizmos.
Apparently you can not read the whole sentence so here it is simpler for you.
Let's start moving to full digital.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
They've already spoiled uses of "perpetually" that do not work with just a change to "for the rest of the game." Also, none of the existing "for the rest of the game" effects in paper deal with cards gaining something that lasts for the rest of the game even as they change zones including hidden zones.
Yes, Davriel could work like Urza headmaster, which is a silver-border card that directs folks to an internet site.
As you already mentioned, "seek" doesn't work.
It's not that every single one of these cards would be impossible in paper. It's that collectively these are a bunch of new abilities that all play with the game in a way that makes them rather simple to implement in digital but would either be extraordinarily complicated, prone to cheating, prone to mistake, or otherwise too cumbersome to all implement in paper.
It's not that it can't happen, it's just that it's a rare thing and when it does happen then there's usually a catch affiliated with that particular colour's dynamics and philosophy.
'buster
HR Analyst. Gamer. Activist | Fearless, and forthright | Aggro-control is a mindset.
Elspeth and Jhoira rock my world.
Seems you are confusing what are effectively "rare effects" bur incolor pie and what are rare effect that are rare exactly because they were color pie breaks and error designs.
Early magic is experimentation of unexperienced designers, and therefore, full of errors that cannot be taken as precedents for anything in the present or future.
STOP trying to make digital happen wotc, it's not happening.
making me hate paper too now
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
They won't stop, it's going to become the main focus the second it's more profitable.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||