If the image shown earlier this year is true, that'll probably be a Shandalar thing if it's a world we visit in 2022.
'buster
Without bringing the welcoming back Slivers on my part bit back to Standard, I'd love to see the gymnastics WotC does to explain how they went from their beloved original representative look to humanoid, back to the beloved look again on Shandalar.
About the only things I wish the Shandalarian Slivers had was an intimidate Sliver and a Sliver Hive printing (could even had been a Secret Lair, or some other Promo of some kind) depicting Shandalarian Slivers. That's it.
I guess Shandalar: Island in the Mist sounds fun otherwise.
If the image shown earlier this year is true, that'll probably be a Shandalar thing if it's a world we visit in 2022.
'buster
Without bringing the welcoming back Slivers on my part bit back to Standard, I'd love to see the gymnastics WotC does to explain how they went from their beloved original representative look to humanoid, back to the beloved look again on Shandalar.
About the only things I wish the Shandalarian Slivers had was an intimidate Sliver and a Sliver Hive printing (could even had been a Secret Lair, or some other Promo of some kind) depicting Shandalarian Slivers. That's it.
I guess Shandalar: Island in the Mist sounds fun otherwise.
If they do bring them back again I hope they return Slivers back to their original mechanic where sliver abilities were globally shared. It made the tribe feel uniquely special in the fact that your opponent could benefit or even throw a wrench into it with some choice sliver cards of their own, such giving all slivers defender or making all slivers deal one damage to their controller.
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Never forget whose grace and favor led to your success and always give your thanks, otherwise you might be doomed to loose it.
If the image shown earlier this year is true, that'll probably be a Shandalar thing if it's a world we visit in 2022.
'buster
Without bringing the welcoming back Slivers on my part bit back to Standard, I'd love to see the gymnastics WotC does to explain how they went from their beloved original representative look to humanoid, back to the beloved look again on Shandalar.
About the only things I wish the Shandalarian Slivers had was an intimidate Sliver and a Sliver Hive printing (could even had been a Secret Lair, or some other Promo of some kind) depicting Shandalarian Slivers. That's it.
I guess Shandalar: Island in the Mist sounds fun otherwise.
If they do bring them back again I hope they return Slivers back to their original mechanic where sliver abilities were globally shared. It made the tribe feel uniquely special in the fact that your opponent could benefit or even throw a wrench into it with some choice sliver cards of their own, such giving all slivers defender or making all slivers deal one damage to their controller.
That's a "will very likely never happen" according to Maro. I always felt that the global part of their effects was more a "gotcha!" for less experienced Sliver players than actually contributing to their identity (which is very firmly "they share their abilities with each other" and "5-colored tribe", not the global part). It rarely contributed much in any game I played and mirror games came down to "who gets the most slivers out" in the end anyway.
The appearance on the other hand... they could have done a bit more of a shift from their original designs towards the more humanoid slivers in their first Shandalar appearance (so pretty much what they did with their second Shandalar appearance) and give it more of a background and it might have been fine. The way they did it felt nonsensically from the start. Still would feel bad if they don't acknowledge the humanoid ones in their next appearance on Shandalar purely because they ****ed up their introduction.
If the image shown earlier this year is true, that'll probably be a Shandalar thing if it's a world we visit in 2022.
'buster
Without bringing the welcoming back Slivers on my part bit back to Standard, I'd love to see the gymnastics WotC does to explain how they went from their beloved original representative look to humanoid, back to the beloved look again on Shandalar.
About the only things I wish the Shandalarian Slivers had was an intimidate Sliver and a Sliver Hive printing (could even had been a Secret Lair, or some other Promo of some kind) depicting Shandalarian Slivers. That's it.
I guess Shandalar: Island in the Mist sounds fun otherwise.
If they do bring them back again I hope they return Slivers back to their original mechanic where sliver abilities were globally shared. It made the tribe feel uniquely special in the fact that your opponent could benefit or even throw a wrench into it with some choice sliver cards of their own, such giving all slivers defender or making all slivers deal one damage to their controller.
I've played enough Sliver mirrors that I never want to see global effects on Slivers ever again. Time Spiral Limited was complicated enough already.
This isn't rocket science, if you don't want to play Slivers with global effects you should play Allies instead. And if for some BS reasons you don't want to make new symmetrical Slivers, you should cut the pretense of throwing enfranchised players a nostalgia bone and just make new Allies instead.
Frankly I'd prefer if R&D kept Slivers a relic of the past rather than destroy the mechanical identity of one creature type with potential by conflating it with that of others (Allies, "lords") and lessening all of them in the process.
Alas, R&D gonna R&D...
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Thou shalt not have others of the same Legendary before me Thou shalt not frame images with the modern card face Thou shalt not change rules in vain Remember the Reserved List to keep it holy Honor thy Slivers and the symmetry of their abilities Thou shalt not kill mana burn Thou shalt not sacrifice depth for accessibility Thou shalt not steal combat damage from the stack Thou shalt tell a story through thy cards All must be one
The change in slivers was to line up with current tribal design. All tribal effects where global (Goblin King) originally and that was later changed due to one sided effects resulted in better games. Slivers got global effects in Time Spiral but that purely for nostalgia.This was also what led to the humanoid slivers, originally they where just gonna shelf slivers and came up with the new humanoid ones as separate creatures, as well as feeling as if the old design had started to lose original art designs. But after play testing most of RnD felt they should be just be slivers but the art and such had already been commission. Thats why in the next core set they had more traditional looking slivers and why for Modern Horizons they did an art push to come up with more unique designs for the old versions.
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“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
is this slightly different from before pretty much confirming?
if not it’s no different it’s saffron olive and this guy finding are rumor.
any way as long as we get selesyna/Abzan spirits (with splash of red and blue because of innistrad/kaldheim/strixhaven) and throw in a 5-color spirit tribal legend I'm good
especially getting sisters of flesh and spirit (kyodai and Michiko Konda melded) and All-Consuming Oni of Chaos melded with Hidetsugu on cards
I hope a return to Kamigawa and snake people is the excuse needed to errata naga into snakes. It’s so stupid to have two different creature types for snake people.
i'm betting we get sensei's divining top as a mythic with 300 different variant arts.
bitterness aside, i'd love to see more snake people. i wasn't playing during the first kamigawa, and the setting still doesn't interest me much. pushing it dramatically forward in time could be a lot of fun.
This isn't rocket science, if you don't want to play Slivers with global effects you should play Allies instead. And if for some BS reasons you don't want to make new symmetrical Slivers, you should cut the pretense of throwing enfranchised players a nostalgia bone and just make new Allies instead.
Frankly I'd prefer if R&D kept Slivers a relic of the past rather than destroy the mechanical identity of one creature type with potential by conflating it with that of others (Allies, "lords") and lessening all of them in the process.
Alas, R&D gonna R&D...
Too bad Ally is just a worse version of the permanent, static abilities Slivers gives to all your team always. Wizard of the Coasts will only make asymmetrical Slivers from now on and you can't forbid players to play with them. Deal with it. If you wanna put in your deck only symmetrical slivers in eternal formats nobody gonna stop you to doing that, but you can't expect all players must follows what it is only in your head the only correct way to play magic.
As for the reasons, they are not BS at all. They moved away from symmetrical tribal buff from Slivers exactly for the same reasons they did for any other lord effect (We'll never see again in standard cards like Lord of Atlantis, Goblin King or Elvish Champion either), and that's because from a play design viewpoint, asymettrical buffs plays out much better than symmetrical ones. To be fair it's the "abilities must be symmetrical because of their flavor" to be the real BS argument, because with flavor alone you could justify any design error (for example, direct damage in blue flavored as psychic damage), and that's why the final product is always a compromise and balance between flavor and functionality. Go to the Throat is a flavor fail because it can kill a Headless Specter but at least the card flavor works good overall.
Even without the symmetrical effect, slivers already have their schtick, because it is the only tribe where every single creature is always a lord, and that alone already covers the flavor of "everybody sharing the same mutations near another" and having a unique mechanical identity that distinguish them from other tribes.
Sorry, but I'm with Wizards. Giving unintentionally in a tribal mirror match advantages to my opponent was always a very "feel bad" moment, and I'm glad that modern design moved away from this, exactly like they moved away from many other things (cheap and overpowered stax effect like Stasis, mass land destruction, boomerang that bounce lands, Boil level color hate, banding, etc.), that proved to be detrimental to the overall game future.
I don't disagree with you, but I think a mirror match with a mix of old and new slivers is a whole magnitude worse.
That's true, but that's the catch to play eternal formats. The more cards are available, the more convolute and complicate are card's interactions. At least many more recent formats (not only Standarc but also Pioneer, Brawl and Historic) will have only the new slivers in their card pool, which means that at least the new players are saved from this bane of card's interaction.
I don't disagree with you, but I think a mirror match with a mix of old and new slivers is a whole magnitude worse.
That's true, but that's the catch to play eternal formats. The more cards are available, the more convolute and complicate are card's interactions. At least many more recent formats (not only Standarc but also Pioneer, Brawl and Historic) will have only the new slivers in their card pool, which means that at least the new players are saved from this bane of card's interaction.
The problem is that slivers are most popular in casual / kitchen table magic. If we were talking about a competitive archetype like storm or whatever, sure, you may have a point. But the place where one encounters mirror matches featuring slivers of all sets is also the place where you encounter slivers the most. And that is why it's more of a problem than it looks on paper.
The problem is that slivers are most popular in casual / kitchen table magic.
I mean, the last time we saw new Slivers printed with the old model was with time spiral block, which was a very long time ago. Time Spiral is also one of the most confusing and complicated magic sets of all time (Just look at what they did on Future Sight) so the kitchen table players owning such old slivers very likely know also how much Magic can get damn confusing even at casual levels.
As I said, that's the catch of eternal formats, doesnt matter if tournament or kitchen table only. Magic is the most complex game in the world, so unfortunately it's just natural that the more cards you have from any set or expansion the more of a messy thing get everything, not only with Symmetrical vs Asymmetrical Slivers (Kitchen table eternal players are also the ones that have cards with Shroud and Hexproof, Fear and Intimidate, Regenerate and Indestructible, Vanishing and Fading, etc.)
This complexity where you get many cards or mechanics very similar to each other but that also do slightly different things that matters in the gameplay it's unavoidable, so it's not like that if you get rid of the asymmetrical slivers you solved the problem, eternal formats will always be a mess at any levels of play.
But this complexity it's also part of the fun and appeal for many players, so what we can say? That maybe overall its right that things are like as they are in the grand scheme of the game.
I don't disagree with you, but I think a mirror match with a mix of old and new slivers is a whole magnitude worse.
That's true, but that's the catch to play eternal formats. The more cards are available, the more convolute and complicate are card's interactions. At least many more recent formats (not only Standarc but also Pioneer, Brawl and Historic) will have only the new slivers in their card pool, which means that at least the new players are saved from this bane of card's interaction.
The problem is that slivers are most popular in casual / kitchen table magic. If we were talking about a competitive archetype like storm or whatever, sure, you may have a point. But the place where one encounters mirror matches featuring slivers of all sets is also the place where you encounter slivers the most. And that is why it's more of a problem than it looks on paper.
And whether you make sliver symmetrical or asymmetrical in future it won't matter because both already exist.
i never liked that the Rebel is search a rebel permanent card instead of a rebel card
they should had expanded it and dominaria is another chance
What exactly would be the point? Every single Rebel card I recall that searches for a Rebel permanent card puts it onto the battlefield and there are no nonpermanent cards that can be put onto the battlefield that way. So finding yourself a tribal instant with changeling will have no benefit at all.
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Heck, every day I wake up, I don't go out and kill people - and I'm rewarded by not having legions of enemies! Amazing how that works.
Although ninjas are experts of camouflage and concealment, they are actually horrible liars. This means that no matter where you are, you can shout out, “Are there any ninjas here?” and if there’s a ninja within earshot, he’ll be compelled to respond.
I don't disagree with you, but I think a mirror match with a mix of old and new slivers is a whole magnitude worse.
That's true, but that's the catch to play eternal formats. The more cards are available, the more convolute and complicate are card's interactions. At least many more recent formats (not only Standarc but also Pioneer, Brawl and Historic) will have only the new slivers in their card pool, which means that at least the new players are saved from this bane of card's interaction.
The problem is that slivers are most popular in casual / kitchen table magic. If we were talking about a competitive archetype like storm or whatever, sure, you may have a point. But the place where one encounters mirror matches featuring slivers of all sets is also the place where you encounter slivers the most. And that is why it's more of a problem than it looks on paper.
And whether you make sliver symmetrical or asymmetrical in future it won't matter because both already exist.
I'm talking about the original decision to change how slivers worked, not continuing on that. The horse has already bolted.
I’m going to be the miracle that finishes off symmetrical Slivers in both a new hive, and the future sighted Slivers, MaRo and WotC just don’t know it yet.
If Slivers return in Shandalar or Dominaria, I’m going to be Ron Artest winning his title happy, like having four daughters then finally having a son happy.
If the image shown earlier this year is true, that'll probably be a Shandalar thing if it's a world we visit in 2022.
'buster
HR Analyst. Gamer. Activist | Fearless, and forthright | Aggro-control is a mindset.
Elspeth and Jhoira rock my world.
Without bringing the welcoming back Slivers on my part bit back to Standard, I'd love to see the gymnastics WotC does to explain how they went from their beloved original representative look to humanoid, back to the beloved look again on Shandalar.
About the only things I wish the Shandalarian Slivers had was an intimidate Sliver and a Sliver Hive printing (could even had been a Secret Lair, or some other Promo of some kind) depicting Shandalarian Slivers. That's it.
I guess Shandalar: Island in the Mist sounds fun otherwise.
If they do bring them back again I hope they return Slivers back to their original mechanic where sliver abilities were globally shared. It made the tribe feel uniquely special in the fact that your opponent could benefit or even throw a wrench into it with some choice sliver cards of their own, such giving all slivers defender or making all slivers deal one damage to their controller.
That's a "will very likely never happen" according to Maro. I always felt that the global part of their effects was more a "gotcha!" for less experienced Sliver players than actually contributing to their identity (which is very firmly "they share their abilities with each other" and "5-colored tribe", not the global part). It rarely contributed much in any game I played and mirror games came down to "who gets the most slivers out" in the end anyway.
The appearance on the other hand... they could have done a bit more of a shift from their original designs towards the more humanoid slivers in their first Shandalar appearance (so pretty much what they did with their second Shandalar appearance) and give it more of a background and it might have been fine. The way they did it felt nonsensically from the start. Still would feel bad if they don't acknowledge the humanoid ones in their next appearance on Shandalar purely because they ****ed up their introduction.
Frankly I'd prefer if R&D kept Slivers a relic of the past rather than destroy the mechanical identity of one creature type with potential by conflating it with that of others (Allies, "lords") and lessening all of them in the process.
Alas, R&D gonna R&D...
Thou shalt not frame images with the modern card face
Thou shalt not change rules in vain
Remember the Reserved List to keep it holy
Honor thy Slivers and the symmetry of their abilities
Thou shalt not kill mana burn
Thou shalt not sacrifice depth for accessibility
Thou shalt not steal combat damage from the stack
Thou shalt tell a story through thy cards
All must be one
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
I don't disagree with you, but I think a mirror match with a mix of old and new slivers is a whole magnitude worse.
All I want is Zubera tribal from Kamigawa
they should had expanded it and dominaria is another chance
Are you just a really big Crib Swap fan?
bitterness aside, i'd love to see more snake people. i wasn't playing during the first kamigawa, and the setting still doesn't interest me much. pushing it dramatically forward in time could be a lot of fun.
I hope this is real SO badly
Many thanks to DNC at Heroes of the Plane Studios
Too bad Ally is just a worse version of the permanent, static abilities Slivers gives to all your team always. Wizard of the Coasts will only make asymmetrical Slivers from now on and you can't forbid players to play with them. Deal with it. If you wanna put in your deck only symmetrical slivers in eternal formats nobody gonna stop you to doing that, but you can't expect all players must follows what it is only in your head the only correct way to play magic.
As for the reasons, they are not BS at all. They moved away from symmetrical tribal buff from Slivers exactly for the same reasons they did for any other lord effect (We'll never see again in standard cards like Lord of Atlantis, Goblin King or Elvish Champion either), and that's because from a play design viewpoint, asymettrical buffs plays out much better than symmetrical ones. To be fair it's the "abilities must be symmetrical because of their flavor" to be the real BS argument, because with flavor alone you could justify any design error (for example, direct damage in blue flavored as psychic damage), and that's why the final product is always a compromise and balance between flavor and functionality. Go to the Throat is a flavor fail because it can kill a Headless Specter but at least the card flavor works good overall.
Even without the symmetrical effect, slivers already have their schtick, because it is the only tribe where every single creature is always a lord, and that alone already covers the flavor of "everybody sharing the same mutations near another" and having a unique mechanical identity that distinguish them from other tribes.
Sorry, but I'm with Wizards. Giving unintentionally in a tribal mirror match advantages to my opponent was always a very "feel bad" moment, and I'm glad that modern design moved away from this, exactly like they moved away from many other things (cheap and overpowered stax effect like Stasis, mass land destruction, boomerang that bounce lands, Boil level color hate, banding, etc.), that proved to be detrimental to the overall game future.
That's true, but that's the catch to play eternal formats. The more cards are available, the more convolute and complicate are card's interactions. At least many more recent formats (not only Standarc but also Pioneer, Brawl and Historic) will have only the new slivers in their card pool, which means that at least the new players are saved from this bane of card's interaction.
The problem is that slivers are most popular in casual / kitchen table magic. If we were talking about a competitive archetype like storm or whatever, sure, you may have a point. But the place where one encounters mirror matches featuring slivers of all sets is also the place where you encounter slivers the most. And that is why it's more of a problem than it looks on paper.
I mean, the last time we saw new Slivers printed with the old model was with time spiral block, which was a very long time ago. Time Spiral is also one of the most confusing and complicated magic sets of all time (Just look at what they did on Future Sight) so the kitchen table players owning such old slivers very likely know also how much Magic can get damn confusing even at casual levels.
As I said, that's the catch of eternal formats, doesnt matter if tournament or kitchen table only. Magic is the most complex game in the world, so unfortunately it's just natural that the more cards you have from any set or expansion the more of a messy thing get everything, not only with Symmetrical vs Asymmetrical Slivers (Kitchen table eternal players are also the ones that have cards with Shroud and Hexproof, Fear and Intimidate, Regenerate and Indestructible, Vanishing and Fading, etc.)
This complexity where you get many cards or mechanics very similar to each other but that also do slightly different things that matters in the gameplay it's unavoidable, so it's not like that if you get rid of the asymmetrical slivers you solved the problem, eternal formats will always be a mess at any levels of play.
But this complexity it's also part of the fun and appeal for many players, so what we can say? That maybe overall its right that things are like as they are in the grand scheme of the game.
And whether you make sliver symmetrical or asymmetrical in future it won't matter because both already exist.
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What exactly would be the point? Every single Rebel card I recall that searches for a Rebel permanent card puts it onto the battlefield and there are no nonpermanent cards that can be put onto the battlefield that way. So finding yourself a tribal instant with changeling will have no benefit at all.
Although ninjas are experts of camouflage and concealment, they are actually horrible liars. This means that no matter where you are, you can shout out, “Are there any ninjas here?” and if there’s a ninja within earshot, he’ll be compelled to respond.
I'm talking about the original decision to change how slivers worked, not continuing on that. The horse has already bolted.
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did something hit your head i seen slivers win less than 3 turns i know because 1 i play them 2 i seen it from other players.