This is a really privileged statement. I played Magic before smartphones existed, and I play it in no small part because it is not a digital endeavor. There are PLENTY of people out there without smartphone, be they poor or just young kids who should not have one yet. Does it help in some cases, sure, but you absolutely should not need one.
Sure, I played also Magic before Smartphone existed, and in fact me and my noob friends was interpreting the games rules or cards texts in a *****ty and completely incorrect way all the time. I'm just saying that if you want to always play a 100% correct and legal way to play Magic you absolutely need to have internet, because it is simply insane and impossible to just read and perfectly remember all the over 900 paragraphs of rules of Magic (that exist only in internet) or the Oracle text and erratas of all over 23.000 unique cards (that also exist only in internet), or knowing perfectly all card's interactions for common mortals that are not level 5 Judges, and that's why my point was to just counter the argument that D12 should be "too much" to handle for casual players, while this is clearly not true at all, and in both casual and tournament setting you have everything you need to play with those cards with no problem.
So yes, to play properly this game you actually need a smartphone and that's no big deal because as I said, everybody have a smartphone and an internet connection. Having an app for dice rolls isn't worse or more difficult than doing anything I listed above..
2.12 Electronic Devices
At Competitive and Professional Rules Enforcement Level during drafting, deck construction, and playing of matches, players may not use electronic devices capable of taking and storing notes, communicating with other people, or accessing the internet ( except for taking brief personal calls with the opponent's permission). At Regular Rules Enforcement Level, electronic devices are permitted, but players may not use them to access information that contains substantial strategic advice or information about an opponent's deck. Device use during a match other than brief personal calls must be visible to all players. Players wishing to view information privately on electronic devices during matches must request permission from a judge. The Head Judge or Tournament Organizer of a tournament may further restrict or forbid the use of electronic devices during matches.
The Head Judge or Tournament Organizer of a tournament may further restrict or forbid the use of electronic devices during matches.
The entire point of playing in paper is to not have a smartphone at the table, be "social" instead of anti-social.
And during proper matches someone tapping around on their phones, is distracting in itself.
And people use Apps that quite literally cheat (yea, digital coinflips have plenty of messed up Apps that allow to tab in a spot on the display to guarantee an outcome, its messed up and its a level of cheating nobody needs or introduce to the game).
The game CAN and SHOULD be designed that all that is not needed.
Its a card game, all you SHOULD need is the cards, which SHOULD explain themselves without the need to have oracle text for substantial rules to them (like all the damn creature type changes) , minor little details nobody would know or look up anyway, but substantial changes are a mess.
its not like there isnt a solution for all problems, we are not idiots (most of us at least) , so we can figure out solutions, we are smart after all.
The problem is that the game designs cards that require these solutions for problems that shouldnt exist in the first place.
The entire argument is, to design a card that requires a D12 is awful and should not be done in Magic, its strictly crappy card design ... and theres plenty of awful magic cards designed, which doesnt excuse to make more awful designs that introduce more and even more awful problems to a game that has enough of them already.
if you ever tried to play a game where every card asks you to roll a dice, put counters on them, flip a coin and choose random targets ... the games anything but fun, its not a card game anymore, at that moment you just stop playing with that cards or person, which is entirely avoidable if that issue wouldnt be forced into the game by said awful card designs (theres simply no need to ever have "random" anything in Magic, flipping coins, rolling dice, its all equally awful and unnecessary , and frankly, they designed these cards at least to be as non-competitive as possible, so nobody that wants to be competitive has to bother with them ... but thats far from a good solution, its a terrible approach to hide these mistakes).
This card would work with D20 and not need the gimmick of a D12.
Simpler, more elegant, better.
Or maybe they thought that paying 7 mana to have 50% of gettin 10+ treasures was too much?
Oh wait, the % is even higher than that...
You speak of game design and then think this card would be fine with a d20? Looks like you are just afraid of d12s for whatever reason and not being reasonable at all.
The average roll of a d12 is 6,5. That means on average this spell will pay for itself. That's why they chose a d12. Not just for a "gimmick".
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
I love reading these posts about how complex this card is because it requires a player to roll a dice. If you can't figure it out, then don't play the card. If you can't stand that they made the card, then don't play the game. They're not asking a lot.
I guess I don't disagree with the crowd saying "make it available in a blackout!". I was really annoyed with Urza, Academy Headmaster. I also probably have a bias in that I know I always have plenty of dice, despite the fact that I don't own a smartphone. I figure that if d20 rolls are allowed, d12s are no problem, since you can just use a d20 and reroll higher numbers. A D8 might be a little less convenient.
Personally, I do think that rules should be written on cards so smartphones aren't necessary. I think the dungeon is an okay limited mechanic in the same way that contraptions are fine (it's a mini-game mechanic). But I hate the dungeon in proper games because it doesn't say what it does on the card. I don't like the monarch for the same reason. And I don't like that Old Gnawbone doesn't give reminder text for treasures.
I've used a d20 to replace a missing d12 plenty of times. It's clunky, but it doesn't take long compared to searching your library. I figure if you can use d20s on lots of cards, using a d12 on one or two in a commander deck is okay.
Or maybe they thought that paying 7 mana to have 50% of gettin 10+ treasures was too much?
Oh wait, the % is even higher than that...
You speak of game design and then think this card would be fine with a d20? Looks like you are just afraid of d12s for whatever reason and not being reasonable at all.
The average roll of a d12 is 6,5. That means on average this spell will pay for itself. That's why they chose a d12. Not just for a "gimmick".
At this point you are just trying for the sake of it.
The card shouldnt exist period.
If it requires a awful D12 gimmick to work, simply dont do it, nobody loses, the game is cleaner, peace.
At this point you are just trying for the sake of it.
The card shouldnt exist period.
Great argument, much facts, really disproven my math
do you have some childhood trauma related to d12s? Are they banned in your country a smuggling them is punishable with death? I can't see other reasons for such a blind hate.
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
I got it. After you buy your Moutain Dew and Reese's Peanut Butter Cups, save 4 coins. Then flip them all at the same time. Heads = 1. Tails = 0.
12 is represented as `1100` in binary. Read them from left to right, and if the first two are both 1's (i.e. heads) and the last two are not 0, "roll" again.. If you get four tails, flip again, because you cannot roll a 0.
Handy chart for this not-at-all complex solution:
T - T - T - T => "Roll again" (0)
T - T - T - H => 1
T - T - H - T => 2
T - T - H - H => 3
T - H - T - T => 4
T - H - T - H => 5
T - H - H - T => 6
T - H - H - H => 7
H - T - T - T => 8
H - T - T - H => 9
H - T - H - T => 10
H - T - H - H => 11
H - H - T - T => 12
H - H - T - H => "Roll again" (13)
H - H - H - T => "Roll again" (14)
H - H - H - H => "Roll again" (15)
There is only 75% chance that you will "roll" a number that represents 1 - 12, thusly only a 25% change to have to "re-roll".
Like a 6-sided dice, ok, maybe someone has one, not guaranteed.
A spin-down d20? sure somebody has one, almost guaranteed.
But a d12 ? Good luck ...
In case you missed the news, it has been repeatedly stated that you are NOT supposed to use spindowns for dice rolls as all of the high rolls are right next to each other and anyone half decent at rolling dice would be able to ensure a 10+ roll 90+ percent of the time.
In case you missed the news, it has been repeatedly stated that you are NOT supposed to use spindowns for dice rolls as all of the high rolls are right next to each other and anyone half decent at rolling dice would be able to ensure a 10+ roll 90+ percent of the time.
Another problem with the dice rolling gimmick.
They gave out millions of Spindown D20 to players for years, and now you are not allowed to use them to this gimmick ?
Its such a awful designed mechanic that oozes out of every pore.
Another question. Would it have killed them to make it 2d6 instead of D12. I know that means the scores would not be a flat distribution and rather weighted towards 7 with no chance of a 1, but d6es are so much more common to find just lying around than d12s.
Like a 6-sided dice, ok, maybe someone has one, not guaranteed.
A spin-down d20? sure somebody has one, almost guaranteed.
But a d12 ? Good luck ...
In case you missed the news, it has been repeatedly stated that you are NOT supposed to use spindowns for dice rolls as all of the high rolls are right next to each other and anyone half decent at rolling dice would be able to ensure a 10+ roll 90+ percent of the time.
Wotc taking dumb decisions? Nothing new . At least allow ppl to roll with a cup…..
The entire point of playing in paper is to not have a smartphone at the table, be "social" instead of anti-social.
Being social has nothing to do about knowing the exact errata of a card or knowing how a card behave with other cards or knowing what card is legal to play and what is banned in what format in that moment. Unless you play in a high-tournament level where an expert Judge is always available, in regular FNM and LGS little tourneys (standard, modern or draft doesnt matter) very rarely (at least in my place) there is a guy that knows all the rules and thats why Internet is necessary in order to clear game rules controversy, which happens literally every single day, all the time, everywhere, for everybody.
Its a card game, all you SHOULD need is the cards, which SHOULD explain themselves without the need to have oracle text for substantial rules to them
Maybe in theory, but in practice, many cards differ greatly from what is actually printed in their rules text and that's especially true for an eternal format like commander where you can play cards from every expansion of every time (it's literally impossibile for example, without checking internet errata, what exactly is phyrexian and what is not since there's no real consistent criteria, or also many cards were printed without the correct text for mistake like Marath or Hostage Taker, or some cards works in a extremely counter-intuitive way because of how game rules changes over the years like for example being able to still doing damage and untap despite a card like Reconneisance says and was originally intended to remove the creature from combat exactly to preven that, and so on)
So yes, this game it's a great and utter mess, and there's absolutely nothing you can do to fix it. Doesn't matter what in your head this game "should" or "would" be. The only thing matter is what this game IS effectively, and how players resolve their everyday problems, which is, inevitably, using the internet in a way or another. And the "issues" of dice roll is just the little tip of a big mess of iceberg that players need to pass in order to play properly and with all kosher crisms this game.
can we talk about how ******* ***** terrible it is because of how random the results are at 7 god damned mana instead of focusing on the dice that anyone who runs this card will bring with them?
can we talk about how ******* ***** terrible it is because of how random the results are at 7 god damned mana instead of focusing on the dice that anyone who runs this card will bring with them?
I actually love it, it's definitely my cup of tea and I'm already running a proxy of it in some decks. It's a high risk, high reward card and for those who love to gamble it's ideal.
Omfg a d12 is literally $0.20. You could get 200 of them for the cost of the commander deck this comes in. This is literally not an issue for anyone except for people looking for reasons to cry about something. It's ******* pathetic and you know it. Be an adult and get the **** over it.
So...
1. There are no cards that force an opponent to roll a dice. There is never a situation that would be punished for the crime of not bringing a dice when someone else brings the dice-rolling into the game.
2. I must reiterate that outside of a very unlucky and fringe “collector booster” draft, there are no circumstance where you will suddenly find yourself with this card without having the foresight to bring a dice. Cards that roll non-d20s cannot be obtained in draft boosters.
d12
1-12: the result on the die
13-20: NA -> roll again
Spindowns can be used as d20, but only if you are not playing against a cheater. (Don't play with a cheater)
Also this is for commander, so its fine. It random, this can be pure enjoyment on the table.
As a Legecy or Vintage player I would be less then thrilled however.
That being said their will be guaranteed some addition to the tournament rules that you need to bring randomization equipment or risk a DQ.
And if you play at the kitchen table, your opponent obviously decides the result if you don't have a method to bring an RNG.
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Sure, I played also Magic before Smartphone existed, and in fact me and my noob friends was interpreting the games rules or cards texts in a *****ty and completely incorrect way all the time. I'm just saying that if you want to always play a 100% correct and legal way to play Magic you absolutely need to have internet, because it is simply insane and impossible to just read and perfectly remember all the over 900 paragraphs of rules of Magic (that exist only in internet) or the Oracle text and erratas of all over 23.000 unique cards (that also exist only in internet), or knowing perfectly all card's interactions for common mortals that are not level 5 Judges, and that's why my point was to just counter the argument that D12 should be "too much" to handle for casual players, while this is clearly not true at all, and in both casual and tournament setting you have everything you need to play with those cards with no problem.
Ah the irony :
(MTG Tournament Rules
The entire point of playing in paper is to not have a smartphone at the table, be "social" instead of anti-social.
And during proper matches someone tapping around on their phones, is distracting in itself.
And people use Apps that quite literally cheat (yea, digital coinflips have plenty of messed up Apps that allow to tab in a spot on the display to guarantee an outcome, its messed up and its a level of cheating nobody needs or introduce to the game).
The game CAN and SHOULD be designed that all that is not needed.
Its a card game, all you SHOULD need is the cards, which SHOULD explain themselves without the need to have oracle text for substantial rules to them (like all the damn creature type changes) , minor little details nobody would know or look up anyway, but substantial changes are a mess.
its not like there isnt a solution for all problems, we are not idiots (most of us at least) , so we can figure out solutions, we are smart after all.
The problem is that the game designs cards that require these solutions for problems that shouldnt exist in the first place.
The entire argument is, to design a card that requires a D12 is awful and should not be done in Magic, its strictly crappy card design ... and theres plenty of awful magic cards designed, which doesnt excuse to make more awful designs that introduce more and even more awful problems to a game that has enough of them already.
if you ever tried to play a game where every card asks you to roll a dice, put counters on them, flip a coin and choose random targets ... the games anything but fun, its not a card game anymore, at that moment you just stop playing with that cards or person, which is entirely avoidable if that issue wouldnt be forced into the game by said awful card designs (theres simply no need to ever have "random" anything in Magic, flipping coins, rolling dice, its all equally awful and unnecessary , and frankly, they designed these cards at least to be as non-competitive as possible, so nobody that wants to be competitive has to bother with them ... but thats far from a good solution, its a terrible approach to hide these mistakes).
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Or maybe they thought that paying 7 mana to have 50% of gettin 10+ treasures was too much?
Oh wait, the % is even higher than that...
You speak of game design and then think this card would be fine with a d20? Looks like you are just afraid of d12s for whatever reason and not being reasonable at all.
The average roll of a d12 is 6,5. That means on average this spell will pay for itself. That's why they chose a d12. Not just for a "gimmick".
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Personally, I do think that rules should be written on cards so smartphones aren't necessary. I think the dungeon is an okay limited mechanic in the same way that contraptions are fine (it's a mini-game mechanic). But I hate the dungeon in proper games because it doesn't say what it does on the card. I don't like the monarch for the same reason. And I don't like that Old Gnawbone doesn't give reminder text for treasures.
I've used a d20 to replace a missing d12 plenty of times. It's clunky, but it doesn't take long compared to searching your library. I figure if you can use d20s on lots of cards, using a d12 on one or two in a commander deck is okay.
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At this point you are just trying for the sake of it.
The card shouldnt exist period.
If it requires a awful D12 gimmick to work, simply dont do it, nobody loses, the game is cleaner, peace.
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Great argument, much facts, really disproven my math
do you have some childhood trauma related to d12s? Are they banned in your country a smuggling them is punishable with death? I can't see other reasons for such a blind hate.
12 is represented as `1100` in binary. Read them from left to right, and if the first two are both 1's (i.e. heads) and the last two are not 0, "roll" again.. If you get four tails, flip again, because you cannot roll a 0.
Handy chart for this not-at-all complex solution:
T - T - T - T => "Roll again" (0)
T - T - T - H => 1
T - T - H - T => 2
T - T - H - H => 3
T - H - T - T => 4
T - H - T - H => 5
T - H - H - T => 6
T - H - H - H => 7
H - T - T - T => 8
H - T - T - H => 9
H - T - H - T => 10
H - T - H - H => 11
H - H - T - T => 12
H - H - T - H => "Roll again" (13)
H - H - H - T => "Roll again" (14)
H - H - H - H => "Roll again" (15)
There is only 75% chance that you will "roll" a number that represents 1 - 12, thusly only a 25% change to have to "re-roll".
Easy!
In case you missed the news, it has been repeatedly stated that you are NOT supposed to use spindowns for dice rolls as all of the high rolls are right next to each other and anyone half decent at rolling dice would be able to ensure a 10+ roll 90+ percent of the time.
Another problem with the dice rolling gimmick.
They gave out millions of Spindown D20 to players for years, and now you are not allowed to use them to this gimmick ?
Its such a awful designed mechanic that oozes out of every pore.
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Wotc taking dumb decisions? Nothing new . At least allow ppl to roll with a cup…..
Being social has nothing to do about knowing the exact errata of a card or knowing how a card behave with other cards or knowing what card is legal to play and what is banned in what format in that moment. Unless you play in a high-tournament level where an expert Judge is always available, in regular FNM and LGS little tourneys (standard, modern or draft doesnt matter) very rarely (at least in my place) there is a guy that knows all the rules and thats why Internet is necessary in order to clear game rules controversy, which happens literally every single day, all the time, everywhere, for everybody.
Maybe in theory, but in practice, many cards differ greatly from what is actually printed in their rules text and that's especially true for an eternal format like commander where you can play cards from every expansion of every time (it's literally impossibile for example, without checking internet errata, what exactly is phyrexian and what is not since there's no real consistent criteria, or also many cards were printed without the correct text for mistake like Marath or Hostage Taker, or some cards works in a extremely counter-intuitive way because of how game rules changes over the years like for example being able to still doing damage and untap despite a card like Reconneisance says and was originally intended to remove the creature from combat exactly to preven that, and so on)
So yes, this game it's a great and utter mess, and there's absolutely nothing you can do to fix it. Doesn't matter what in your head this game "should" or "would" be. The only thing matter is what this game IS effectively, and how players resolve their everyday problems, which is, inevitably, using the internet in a way or another. And the "issues" of dice roll is just the little tip of a big mess of iceberg that players need to pass in order to play properly and with all kosher crisms this game.
I actually love it, it's definitely my cup of tea and I'm already running a proxy of it in some decks. It's a high risk, high reward card and for those who love to gamble it's ideal.
Oh you have no idea ...
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1. There are no cards that force an opponent to roll a dice. There is never a situation that would be punished for the crime of not bringing a dice when someone else brings the dice-rolling into the game.
2. I must reiterate that outside of a very unlucky and fringe “collector booster” draft, there are no circumstance where you will suddenly find yourself with this card without having the foresight to bring a dice. Cards that roll non-d20s cannot be obtained in draft boosters.
If you only have a d20 with you did can be done:
d4
1-5: 1
6-10: 2
11-15: 3
16-20: 4
d6
1-3: 1
4-6: 2
7-9: 3
10-12: 4
13-15: 5
16-18: 6
19-20: NA -> roll again
d8
1-2: 1
3-4: 2
5-6: 3
7-8: 4
9-10: 5
11-12: 6
13-14: 7
15-16: 8
17-20: NA -> roll again
d10
1-2: 1
3-4: 2
5-6: 3
7-8: 4
9-10: 5
11-12: 6
13-14: 7
15-16: 8
17-18: 9
19-20: 10
d12
1-12: the result on the die
13-20: NA -> roll again
Spindowns can be used as d20, but only if you are not playing against a cheater. (Don't play with a cheater)
Also this is for commander, so its fine. It random, this can be pure enjoyment on the table.
As a Legecy or Vintage player I would be less then thrilled however.
That being said their will be guaranteed some addition to the tournament rules that you need to bring randomization equipment or risk a DQ.
And if you play at the kitchen table, your opponent obviously decides the result if you don't have a method to bring an RNG.
Hands to the sky
Give a round of applause
For the great Miss Y!