-Adventures in the forgotten will have four decks and 17 new cards per deck. They did this since they think the DnD audience will like commander.
-Innistrad Midnight Hunt and Innistrad Crimson Vow will each have two commander decks each. Each deck will have 15 new card per deck. There is a reason for having 15 new cards per deck but Gavin said he can't say why quiet yet. The four decks are semi-made to be played against together.
-Their new goal with all these new commander focused cards is to try and not hit Arcane Signet levels and be more focused in design.
-Gavin also repeats that not every future yearly commander deck will be tied to standard sets and they have it on the table to go back to more boarder themes.
Some behinds the scenes:
-Originally the idea for the decks where for new players to commander, but not people who where new to magic overall.
-They wanted to start having more commander focused products outside of the yearly decks and started looking for places to make them.
-A lot of new players have entered magic through commander. Gavin believes its partly being multiplayer makes a more welcome social environment and most people will likely start out playing whatever their friends are playing and as commander is the most popular format its what most people are likely playing.
-Rather than fight this they decided to run with it and replace the planeswalker decks with commander decks. This also lets them cater to the enfranchised players since they can put in some commander focused card that lean to us.
-Tying them to standard sets has let them stay a bit more creative and fresh, lets them make sure that each sets themes would get a commander without needing to push it into the main set and not having to worry about balancing them for both formats (using a temur energy commander in Kaladesh as an example).
“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
So 60 card precons aimed at new players is dead. Who knows when we will ever get under $15 60 card precons focusing on themes and mechanics from the latest sets ever again.
So 60 card precons aimed at new players is dead. Who knows when we will ever get under $15 60 card precons focusing on themes and mechanics from the latest sets ever again.
I don't understand who should really miss the low-powered decks for beginners. Who the beginners decks were aimed for in the first place?
If, like MaRo says, data proves that most of the new players learn Magic from other commander players anyway and they enjoy this format and their pre-con, I don't see how they could even miss a product they are not even aware of their existence.
All the rest of the enfranchised players of any format? They are obviously not interested in 60 cards pre-con decks filled with competitively unplayable stuff, since there's so much and better products available for them already.
I think this is just an irrational nostalgia thing by some old players for a non-existent issue.
dang it Gavin you had a temur energy legend in the thought process hope it comes up in a supplament set/deck
Anyway Probably another thing I heard from tolarian community college prediction video
The dominaria set (after ixalan) reinvigorated the interest in older sets/lore (code for they were wrong on fans not liking older stuff) same with old border thus why they are finally showing up again
So probably a lot more old lore stuff for commander deck/supplament sets and giving the criticized sets a second chance (thus all the rumors of kamigawa neon dynasty)
So 60 card precons aimed at new players is dead. Who knows when we will ever get under $15 60 card precons focusing on themes and mechanics from the latest sets ever again.
I don't understand who should really miss the low-powered decks for beginners. Who the beginners decks were aimed for in the first place?
If, like MaRo says, data proves that most of the new players learn Magic from other commander players anyway and they enjoy this format and their pre-con, I don't see how they could even miss a product they are not even aware of their existence.
All the rest of the enfranchised players of any format? They are obviously not interested in 60 cards pre-con decks filled with competitively unplayable stuff, since there's so much and better products available for them already.
I think this is just an irrational nostalgia thing by some old players for a non-existent issue.
You try selling a $15 precon product and get people to buy it. How is it that every other trading card game have a under $15 preconstucted deck option, but MTG doesn't?
I used to buy the set of 4 Theme Decks per set for $50. I guess because I find ways to enjoy the game by not spending a lot on a set of 4 decks means that WOTC don't care about people like me anymore. Why care about a person who spends $50 on 4 decks when there is a person who will pay $50 for one deck.
Intro Packs are unplayable, based on what? Competitiveness? Pretty sure the $25 Commander Decks are pretty unplayable when matched up against any competitive Commander deck. I'd like you to make a better deck where you are confined to no mythics, 2 rares, 12 uncommons, the rest commons, and the cards must be from one set, oh, and stores must not have any incentives to mark up the price either.
When Theme Decks became Intro Packs, the Theme Decks were made for 2 crowds. Those who knew how to play, but wanted to explore the set, and the other crowd is the new player. They wanted to focus on the new player aspect, and thus Intro Packs were born. Because Intro Packs focused on the New Player, the decks were simplistic and boring. If only there are a set of 4 set associated precons focusing on making fun decks that showcases the set. We used to have Intro Packs and Event Decks. Another time, well for one set, we had Planeswalker Decks and Brawl Decks. We had a cheap precon option, and a more expensive one. Why can't every single set have a set of 4 or 5 $15 60 card precons, and a set of 2 $25 Commander precons? I find it hard to justify $15 Commander decks, which is why I went with the 60 card option. It also gives new players the choice.
I’ve always felt that the cards that are most consistently problematic for commander (overpowered and ultra pushed) have been ones Wizards has specifically made for the format. Or for Brawl.
I really wish they would leave it the hell alone and let it remain a community format.
It’ll never happen because Wizards exploits every opportunity to make a dollar.
Pretty sure the $25 Commander Decks are pretty unplayable when matched up against any competitive Commander deck.
Sure, but at least Commander decks has like, a lot of demand and a lot of real players playing it and demanding it. More, much more, than "random 60 pile of filler cards". As I said -actually as WotC as a whole say and confirm-, Commander is the most played and popular format among casual players because today most casual players know Magic because they see the more enfranchised but most casualish players introduce them to commander as a friendly and social way to begin them in the game.
You try selling a $15 precon product and get people to buy it. How is it that every other trading card game have a under $15 preconstucted deck option, but MTG doesn't?
For me, no other trading card game has the same quality -in terms of arts, depths, design, lore, raw numbers of cards, strategies and archetypes, formats and variants and so on- of any other TCG I am aware of. Magic is the first trading card game of the entire history and all other TCG games are just bland copies and ripoff of the real thing. I would gladly pay 15 and even more dollars for such an excellent game.
I love 1v1 Commander. It's the singleton, 100-card, no banlist and having a Legend as a general that I admire most about Commander, not so much the Multiplayer aspect. It can be a 1v1 game. Sometimes I prefer to play it that way. It's the diversity of deck design and casual nature that are its highlights for me.
I’ve always felt that the cards that are most consistently problematic for commander (overpowered and ultra pushed) have been ones Wizards has specifically made for the format. Or for Brawl.
I really wish they would leave it the hell alone and let it remain a community format.
It’ll never happen because Wizards exploits every opportunity to make a dollar.
That brings the next problem: the increase in reprints over the past year or so has been on the back of precons and Commander-adjacent sets. Take Wizards' ability to make said cards away, and we'd get less reprints.
@Tiro of Meletis: If you ever feel like it, install MtG Forge from slightlymagic (open source, all cards available), build some decks there, and PM me for some 1v1 CMD matches.
; )
I would love a Temur Energy commander. I came back to magic during that time and loved playing that deck, so it would be sick if it was possible to build a commander deck that could mimic it.
Pretty sure the $25 Commander Decks are pretty unplayable when matched up against any competitive Commander deck.
Sure, but at least Commander decks has like, a lot of demand and a lot of real players playing it and demanding it. More, much more, than "random 60 pile of filler cards". As I said -actually as WotC as a whole say and confirm-, Commander is the most played and popular format among casual players because today most casual players know Magic because they see the more enfranchised but most casualish players introduce them to commander as a friendly and social way to begin them in the game.
You try selling a $15 precon product and get people to buy it. How is it that every other trading card game have a under $15 preconstucted deck option, but MTG doesn't?
For me, no other trading card game has the same quality -in terms of arts, depths, design, lore, raw numbers of cards, strategies and archetypes, formats and variants and so on- of any other TCG I am aware of. Magic is the first trading card game of the entire history and all other TCG games are just bland copies and ripoff of the real thing. I would gladly pay 15 and even more dollars for such an excellent game.
That's your choice, but why abandon those who have been loyal to the regular rules of the game? You'd rather pay a lot of money for one precon deck? Well some of us don't.
I'll say this again. WOTC has zero confidence in promoting their own rules of the game, much so that they gave up and is now promoting the same game where a bunch of fans changed a bunch of rules and now everybody wants to play that instead of what Magic really is.
"Why try to fight the fact that people want to play Commander". More like, "We give up, our game sucks. People rather play a game someone else made by changing a few of our rules".
"Why try to fight the fact that people want to play Commander". More like, "We give up, our game sucks. People rather play a game someone else made by changing a few of our rules".
They don't really gave up since all other formats, since exists and they still making products for other formats (like the upcoming Modern Horizon 2) and still making tournaments for said formats. Casual players just love the commander formats more than random pile of 60 cards decks and if beginners and casual players are happy with that, why, you, that are a veteran player that has no competitive interest in these pre-con, be upset about it?
If beginners are happy, then everybody is happy. It's a win-win. And I never heard no beginner ever said commander decks have a prohibitive price tag. Ou contraire, I just found people enthusiast to make their hands on the decks of this popular format everybody play.
You are not happy that new players start Magic with a commander pre-con because of price or anything else? Cool, but please keep in mind that you're pretty much a minority and your perception doesn't reflect at all how reality currently works.
I would love a Temur Energy commander. I came back to magic during that time and loved playing that deck, so it would be sick if it was possible to build a commander deck that could mimic it.
Malestrom Wanderer is my suggestion. I run a nostalgic 60-card Temur energy deck that he's absolutely nutter-butters in.
I would love a Temur Energy commander. I came back to magic during that time and loved playing that deck, so it would be sick if it was possible to build a commander deck that could mimic it.
Malestrom Wanderer is my suggestion. I run a nostalgic 60-card Temur energy deck that he's absolutely nutter-butters in.
Pretty cool idea, but are you allowed to have a 60 card deck in Commander?
"Why try to fight the fact that people want to play Commander". More like, "We give up, our game sucks. People rather play a game someone else made by changing a few of our rules".
They don't really gave up since all other formats, since exists and they still making products for other formats (like the upcoming Modern Horizon 2) and still making tournaments for said formats. Casual players just love the commander formats more than random pile of 60 cards decks and if beginners and casual players are happy with that, why, you, that are a veteran player that has no competitive interest in these pre-con, be upset about it?
If beginners are happy, then everybody is happy. It's a win-win. And I never heard no beginner ever said commander decks have a prohibitive price tag. Ou contraire, I just found people enthusiast to make their hands on the decks of this popular format everybody play.
You are not happy that new players start Magic with a commander pre-con because of price or anything else? Cool, but please keep in mind that you're pretty much a minority and your perception doesn't reflect at all how reality currently works.
So basically, WOTC don't know how to make 60 card, you know, the unmodified rules of the game, fun for casuals, meaning, they gave up.
I also never knew that Modern Horizons 2 are preconstructed decks.
Spending $50 precons and $10 booster packs is nothing to you it seems. I remember when I had little income, I could buy the $13 Intro Packs and enjoy the game that way. Now that's all gone.
"Why try to fight the fact that people want to play Commander". More like, "We give up, our game sucks. People rather play a game someone else made by changing a few of our rules".
They don't really gave up since all other formats, since exists and they still making products for other formats (like the upcoming Modern Horizon 2) and still making tournaments for said formats. Casual players just love the commander formats more than random pile of 60 cards decks and if beginners and casual players are happy with that, why, you, that are a veteran player that has no competitive interest in these pre-con, be upset about it?
If beginners are happy, then everybody is happy. It's a win-win. And I never heard no beginner ever said commander decks have a prohibitive price tag. Ou contraire, I just found people enthusiast to make their hands on the decks of this popular format everybody play.
You are not happy that new players start Magic with a commander pre-con because of price or anything else? Cool, but please keep in mind that you're pretty much a minority and your perception doesn't reflect at all how reality currently works.
So basically, WOTC don't know how to make 60 card, you know, the unmodified rules of the game, fun for casuals, meaning, they gave up.
I also never knew that Modern Horizons 2 are preconstructed decks.
Spending $50 precons and $10 booster packs is nothing to you it seems. I remember when I had little income, I could buy the $13 Intro Packs and enjoy the game that way. Now that's all gone.
I think Challenger Decks fill the role your looking for.
"Why try to fight the fact that people want to play Commander". More like, "We give up, our game sucks. People rather play a game someone else made by changing a few of our rules".
They don't really gave up since all other formats, since exists and they still making products for other formats (like the upcoming Modern Horizon 2) and still making tournaments for said formats. Casual players just love the commander formats more than random pile of 60 cards decks and if beginners and casual players are happy with that, why, you, that are a veteran player that has no competitive interest in these pre-con, be upset about it?
If beginners are happy, then everybody is happy. It's a win-win. And I never heard no beginner ever said commander decks have a prohibitive price tag. Ou contraire, I just found people enthusiast to make their hands on the decks of this popular format everybody play.
You are not happy that new players start Magic with a commander pre-con because of price or anything else? Cool, but please keep in mind that you're pretty much a minority and your perception doesn't reflect at all how reality currently works.
So basically, WOTC don't know how to make 60 card, you know, the unmodified rules of the game, fun for casuals, meaning, they gave up.
I also never knew that Modern Horizons 2 are preconstructed decks.
Spending $50 precons and $10 booster packs is nothing to you it seems. I remember when I had little income, I could buy the $13 Intro Packs and enjoy the game that way. Now that's all gone.
I think Challenger Decks fill the role your looking for.
"Why try to fight the fact that people want to play Commander". More like, "We give up, our game sucks. People rather play a game someone else made by changing a few of our rules".
They don't really gave up since all other formats, since exists and they still making products for other formats (like the upcoming Modern Horizon 2) and still making tournaments for said formats. Casual players just love the commander formats more than random pile of 60 cards decks and if beginners and casual players are happy with that, why, you, that are a veteran player that has no competitive interest in these pre-con, be upset about it?
If beginners are happy, then everybody is happy. It's a win-win. And I never heard no beginner ever said commander decks have a prohibitive price tag. Ou contraire, I just found people enthusiast to make their hands on the decks of this popular format everybody play.
You are not happy that new players start Magic with a commander pre-con because of price or anything else? Cool, but please keep in mind that you're pretty much a minority and your perception doesn't reflect at all how reality currently works.
So basically, WOTC don't know how to make 60 card, you know, the unmodified rules of the game, fun for casuals, meaning, they gave up.
I also never knew that Modern Horizons 2 are preconstructed decks.
Spending $50 precons and $10 booster packs is nothing to you it seems. I remember when I had little income, I could buy the $13 Intro Packs and enjoy the game that way. Now that's all gone.
I think Challenger Decks fill the role your looking for.
Too bad there's only 4 for the entire year.
Oh, for the love of goodness.
To start, if posters out there lack context, signofzeta has advocated on at least one occasion to have theme decks essentially become their own FORMAT, creating a static and relatively balanced series of 60-card products so that casual players can enjoy a “taste” of each new magic set by paying $50-60 for a decent and non-randomized experience. This is the hill that sign is apparently willing to die on.
Further, I think that approach COULD work. Wizards tried something like the Explorers of Ixalan Board Game(?) within the past few years and having that type of deck sold individually with each set isn’t the biggest stretch (even if you removed bombs like time warp to prevent scalping). A standard-sequel magic experience without the deck building element where updates come with each set is interesting and there might be an audience out there for people who like the flavor and gameplay of MTG but who don’t want to spend a bunch of money.
With that said, Wizards choosing not to make those products does not necessarily mean that wizards is failing or floundering. It just shows that they are going with a different monetization model (and likely one that makes them more money in the long run). Making a stand-alone static product/format means that players can buy a single product and never feel compelled to buy anything else, which is a kind of silly thing for Wizards to do when they can print a products that have gaping wholes in their design that players can fill by buying more product (such as getting packs to find a witherbloom dragon to put in the witherbloom commander deck).
While there are undoubtedly some players out there who DON’T buy magic now but who WOULD if there was a cheap and incremental way to do so, Wizards has to weigh that potential profit against casual players who may turn to those products INSTEAD of buying packs if they were available, essentially costing them money.
While I do not have all of the numbers, I very strongly suspect that wizards has no financial incentive to do so and “what about the fans?” doesn’t seem to carry too much weight unless there are hordes of players demanding this sort of product... and there doesn’t seem to be. Some of wizards’ actions (especially with secret lairs) do not seem particularly consumer friendly but calling a company out for not making the specific product that I want... I would have a hard time blaming a company for following the money.
I’m always looking to be proven wrong, though. Wizards focused on professional players for so long that casual and EDH players were once referred to as invisible players and now MTG is kowtowing to commander players. If the theme deck lovers are numerous but disenfranchised, I hope that more of you can make yourselves heard.
Intro Packs are unplayable, based on what? Competitiveness? Pretty sure the $25 Commander Decks are pretty unplayable when matched up against any competitive Commander deck. I'd like you to make a better deck where you are confined to no mythics, 2 rares, 12 uncommons, the rest commons, and the cards must be from one set, oh, and stores must not have any incentives to mark up the price either.
They were trash for everything. They were trash against competitive decks, they were trash against solid casual decks. Everything with just a well done curve and the right removals could stomp a precon. They were the kind of products that only clueless newbie bought and threw away after understanding how the game works, usually while also feeling cheated by wotc.
If you bought 4 intro decks by yourself, played them against each other and had fun, good fun. But also realize this is a extremely niche way to play and you can't make a product just for people like you.
Commander precons are way better, can stand their ground against average commander decks and have also new cards.
"Why try to fight the fact that people want to play Commander". More like, "We give up, our game sucks. People rather play a game someone else made by changing a few of our rules".
Yep, classic magic sucks for casual plays while commander is amazing. Almost everyone has realized that.
So basically, WOTC don't know how to make 60 card, you know, the unmodified rules of the game, fun for casuals, meaning, they gave up.
Again, yes. They were terrible products, almost no one liked them. Regular magic is good for competitive but not for casual.
The sooner you realize this and stop fighting this windmill, the happier you will be.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
You try selling a $15 precon product and get people to buy it. How is it that every other trading card game have a under $15 preconstucted deck option, but MTG doesn't?
You get as much or more value from $15 worth of booster packs as you did from any given intro deck. They weren't products designed for 'beginners,' they were products designed to take advantage of people who don't know that a secondary market exists. There might be good reasons to defend the concept of a theme deck, but the way they were executed, in practice, completely undermines your position that they were Magic's only / necessary point of entry to the game.
The proof, as they say, is in the pudding. You're engaging in some rather fervent mental gymnastics to explain how catering to the commander crowd is evidence that Wizards have no faith in their own product, when the most obvious, logical explanation is exactly what they're telling us: commander is so popular that it's attracting new players who have no problem paying $20+ for a deck.
That's your choice, but why abandon those who have been loyal to the regular rules of the game? You'd rather pay a lot of money for one precon deck? Well some of us don't.
Continuing to use the arbitrary definition that you've made up isn't going to sway anyone that such a thing exists. All this seems to indicate is that you don't understand how long term value works.
You try selling a $15 precon product and get people to buy it. How is it that every other trading card game have a under $15 preconstucted deck option, but MTG doesn't?
You get as much or more value from $15 worth of booster packs as you did from any given intro deck. They weren't products designed for 'beginners,' they were products designed to take advantage of people who don't know that a secondary market exists. There might be good reasons to defend the concept of a theme deck, but the way they were executed, in practice, completely undermines your position that they were Magic's only / necessary point of entry to the game.
The proof, as they say, is in the pudding. You're engaging in some rather fervent mental gymnastics to explain how catering to the commander crowd is evidence that Wizards have no faith in their own product, when the most obvious, logical explanation is exactly what they're telling us: commander is so popular that it's attracting new players who have no problem paying $20+ for a deck.
That's your choice, but why abandon those who have been loyal to the regular rules of the game? You'd rather pay a lot of money for one precon deck? Well some of us don't.
Continuing to use the arbitrary definition that you've made up isn't going to sway anyone that such a thing exists. All this seems to indicate is that you don't understand how long term value works.
I didn't make up the definition. You can't say that life starts at 20 and at 40. One is the regular rule, the other is the modified rules. I believe that Magic, how it was originally designed and evolved is the regular rules.
If you have played any old PC games yourself, you have heard of expansion packs, mods, or even source ports. What Brutal Doom is to Doom, Commander is to Magic. When I mention Regular Doom, most people would visualize Vanilla Doom. Commander is nothing more than a fan made mod to Magic. Sure, there are differences in rules between Magic in 1993 and the current rules. That's the same as the difference between Doom v1.0 and Doom v1.9.
You're just triggered because you like Commander, and by saying that Commander isn't the regular rules of the game, you don't feel "normal" and thus your feelings get hurt, while others would know what I mean when I say "regular rules".
Why is it that it takes some fan modifications to the game in order for people to not care if they win or lose? Has anybody even tried to build a deck that is better than intro packs, where the limit is 0 mythics, 2 rares, one of which must be a creature, 12 uncommons, 24 to 26 basic lands, the rest commons.
WOTC could easily make better 60 card precons for $15, but they don't do it. Intro packs only sucked, as if it was punishment because you didn't give WOTC enough money. It's as if they sold you crappy decks in hope for you to buy more product to improve or replace the deck. Then they see some people actually enjoying the crappy decks, and not spending any money on other products, and thus, they spit in our faces.
$15 precons suck, but that is true for any game. Ever win games against casual Pokemon TCG decks with a Theme Deck, or casual Yugioh decks with an unmodified Structure deck? At least those games gave you an option to spend $15 on a deck at the expense of the deck not being competitive or valuable. MTG no longer has that option.
So 60 card precons aimed at new players is dead. Who knows when we will ever get under $15 60 card precons focusing on themes and mechanics from the latest sets ever again.
I'm pretty sure it's just dead and there's no realistic way to produce and market it profitably. I can certainly understand your frustration, but 60 card casual precons has numerous problems. The normal 4 of rule pulls in multiple directions. It's extremely unfun for diversity UNLESS you have a unique, irreplacable effect the deck has to have to function. Other decks having multiples of more powerful cards make the precon garbage, though. You also can't print multiples of highly desirable cards for other formats because it either leads to scalping or destroys the secondary market value of the good cards. Pokemon also did the 60 card casual precon format online. You could play precon vs precon without the issue of having a very limited number of decks per set. People lost interest and the format was scrapped for the same issue competitive formats have. It led to people just playing the couple teir precons over and over again. What they can realistically do is commander precons and sets like jumpstart. Jumpstart has the kind of thing you're looking for. It has hundreds of potential 40 card precons per release, can make new cards without flooding the market, and you can even print desirable chase cards. Commander is an actual precon, can print format staples because people maintain a whole collection of decks, is automatically limited to `1 copy per card, and solves the unique, irreplacable card problem with its commander that you pretty much always have access to. The reason commander replaced you preferred precons isn't because wizards game sucks. It's because commander, by its very format design fixes all the problems with normal precons simply based on the way the format naturally works. If commander were invented in the beginning, 60 card casual precon never would have existed to begin with because it was flawed from the beginning and destined for failure. I've been playing for decades and every set, unless a 60 card precon gets scalped for parts, none of them ever sold like the low end of commander precons. It's just a naturally superior model to theme decks, intro decks, duel decks, clash packs, or box sets like game night or archenemy. Wizards tried a bunch of different things including precon league style play at game stores that no one was ever interested in at any store I ever went to. Sometimes you just have to face facts that exactly what you want is just not popular or profitable.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTRpFyOGjaw
-MH2 will not have commander deck
-Adventures in the forgotten will have four decks and 17 new cards per deck. They did this since they think the DnD audience will like commander.
-Innistrad Midnight Hunt and Innistrad Crimson Vow will each have two commander decks each. Each deck will have 15 new card per deck. There is a reason for having 15 new cards per deck but Gavin said he can't say why quiet yet. The four decks are semi-made to be played against together.
-Their new goal with all these new commander focused cards is to try and not hit Arcane Signet levels and be more focused in design.
-Gavin also repeats that not every future yearly commander deck will be tied to standard sets and they have it on the table to go back to more boarder themes.
Some behinds the scenes:
-Originally the idea for the decks where for new players to commander, but not people who where new to magic overall.
-They wanted to start having more commander focused products outside of the yearly decks and started looking for places to make them.
-A lot of new players have entered magic through commander. Gavin believes its partly being multiplayer makes a more welcome social environment and most people will likely start out playing whatever their friends are playing and as commander is the most popular format its what most people are likely playing.
-Rather than fight this they decided to run with it and replace the planeswalker decks with commander decks. This also lets them cater to the enfranchised players since they can put in some commander focused card that lean to us.
-Tying them to standard sets has let them stay a bit more creative and fresh, lets them make sure that each sets themes would get a commander without needing to push it into the main set and not having to worry about balancing them for both formats (using a temur energy commander in Kaladesh as an example).
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
I don't understand who should really miss the low-powered decks for beginners. Who the beginners decks were aimed for in the first place?
If, like MaRo says, data proves that most of the new players learn Magic from other commander players anyway and they enjoy this format and their pre-con, I don't see how they could even miss a product they are not even aware of their existence.
All the rest of the enfranchised players of any format? They are obviously not interested in 60 cards pre-con decks filled with competitively unplayable stuff, since there's so much and better products available for them already.
I think this is just an irrational nostalgia thing by some old players for a non-existent issue.
dang it Gavin you had a temur energy legend in the thought process hope it comes up in a supplament set/deck
Anyway Probably another thing I heard from tolarian community college prediction video
The dominaria set (after ixalan) reinvigorated the interest in older sets/lore (code for they were wrong on fans not liking older stuff) same with old border thus why they are finally showing up again
So probably a lot more old lore stuff for commander deck/supplament sets and giving the criticized sets a second chance (thus all the rumors of kamigawa neon dynasty)
You try selling a $15 precon product and get people to buy it. How is it that every other trading card game have a under $15 preconstucted deck option, but MTG doesn't?
I used to buy the set of 4 Theme Decks per set for $50. I guess because I find ways to enjoy the game by not spending a lot on a set of 4 decks means that WOTC don't care about people like me anymore. Why care about a person who spends $50 on 4 decks when there is a person who will pay $50 for one deck.
Intro Packs are unplayable, based on what? Competitiveness? Pretty sure the $25 Commander Decks are pretty unplayable when matched up against any competitive Commander deck. I'd like you to make a better deck where you are confined to no mythics, 2 rares, 12 uncommons, the rest commons, and the cards must be from one set, oh, and stores must not have any incentives to mark up the price either.
When Theme Decks became Intro Packs, the Theme Decks were made for 2 crowds. Those who knew how to play, but wanted to explore the set, and the other crowd is the new player. They wanted to focus on the new player aspect, and thus Intro Packs were born. Because Intro Packs focused on the New Player, the decks were simplistic and boring. If only there are a set of 4 set associated precons focusing on making fun decks that showcases the set. We used to have Intro Packs and Event Decks. Another time, well for one set, we had Planeswalker Decks and Brawl Decks. We had a cheap precon option, and a more expensive one. Why can't every single set have a set of 4 or 5 $15 60 card precons, and a set of 2 $25 Commander precons? I find it hard to justify $15 Commander decks, which is why I went with the 60 card option. It also gives new players the choice.
I really wish they would leave it the hell alone and let it remain a community format.
It’ll never happen because Wizards exploits every opportunity to make a dollar.
Sure, but at least Commander decks has like, a lot of demand and a lot of real players playing it and demanding it. More, much more, than "random 60 pile of filler cards". As I said -actually as WotC as a whole say and confirm-, Commander is the most played and popular format among casual players because today most casual players know Magic because they see the more enfranchised but most casualish players introduce them to commander as a friendly and social way to begin them in the game.
That's why today it makes perfect sense to push more on the real life requests based on strong flavor, social aspect and fantasy identity -which is the most popular format played in the whole world in absolute-, than uninspiring, plain and boring 60 cards deck.
For me, no other trading card game has the same quality -in terms of arts, depths, design, lore, raw numbers of cards, strategies and archetypes, formats and variants and so on- of any other TCG I am aware of. Magic is the first trading card game of the entire history and all other TCG games are just bland copies and ripoff of the real thing. I would gladly pay 15 and even more dollars for such an excellent game.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
; )
That's your choice, but why abandon those who have been loyal to the regular rules of the game? You'd rather pay a lot of money for one precon deck? Well some of us don't.
I'll say this again. WOTC has zero confidence in promoting their own rules of the game, much so that they gave up and is now promoting the same game where a bunch of fans changed a bunch of rules and now everybody wants to play that instead of what Magic really is.
"Why try to fight the fact that people want to play Commander". More like, "We give up, our game sucks. People rather play a game someone else made by changing a few of our rules".
They don't really gave up since all other formats, since exists and they still making products for other formats (like the upcoming Modern Horizon 2) and still making tournaments for said formats. Casual players just love the commander formats more than random pile of 60 cards decks and if beginners and casual players are happy with that, why, you, that are a veteran player that has no competitive interest in these pre-con, be upset about it?
If beginners are happy, then everybody is happy. It's a win-win. And I never heard no beginner ever said commander decks have a prohibitive price tag. Ou contraire, I just found people enthusiast to make their hands on the decks of this popular format everybody play.
You are not happy that new players start Magic with a commander pre-con because of price or anything else? Cool, but please keep in mind that you're pretty much a minority and your perception doesn't reflect at all how reality currently works.
Malestrom Wanderer is my suggestion. I run a nostalgic 60-card Temur energy deck that he's absolutely nutter-butters in.
Fully-powered 600-Card "Dream Cube" https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/dreamcube
450-Card "Artificer's Cube" https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/artificer
Cubing in Indianapolis...send me a PM!!
That said id like to see them do away with the yearly set of 5 edh decks if we're going to get some every set
Additionally, i really wish there was planechase cards to go with them. Do 2 precons every set, and packaage them with 3 plane cards from that plane.
Pretty cool idea, but are you allowed to have a 60 card deck in Commander?
So basically, WOTC don't know how to make 60 card, you know, the unmodified rules of the game, fun for casuals, meaning, they gave up.
I also never knew that Modern Horizons 2 are preconstructed decks.
Spending $50 precons and $10 booster packs is nothing to you it seems. I remember when I had little income, I could buy the $13 Intro Packs and enjoy the game that way. Now that's all gone.
I think Challenger Decks fill the role your looking for.
Too bad there's only 4 for the entire year.
Oh, for the love of goodness.
To start, if posters out there lack context, signofzeta has advocated on at least one occasion to have theme decks essentially become their own FORMAT, creating a static and relatively balanced series of 60-card products so that casual players can enjoy a “taste” of each new magic set by paying $50-60 for a decent and non-randomized experience. This is the hill that sign is apparently willing to die on.
Further, I think that approach COULD work. Wizards tried something like the Explorers of Ixalan Board Game(?) within the past few years and having that type of deck sold individually with each set isn’t the biggest stretch (even if you removed bombs like time warp to prevent scalping). A standard-sequel magic experience without the deck building element where updates come with each set is interesting and there might be an audience out there for people who like the flavor and gameplay of MTG but who don’t want to spend a bunch of money.
With that said, Wizards choosing not to make those products does not necessarily mean that wizards is failing or floundering. It just shows that they are going with a different monetization model (and likely one that makes them more money in the long run). Making a stand-alone static product/format means that players can buy a single product and never feel compelled to buy anything else, which is a kind of silly thing for Wizards to do when they can print a products that have gaping wholes in their design that players can fill by buying more product (such as getting packs to find a witherbloom dragon to put in the witherbloom commander deck).
While there are undoubtedly some players out there who DON’T buy magic now but who WOULD if there was a cheap and incremental way to do so, Wizards has to weigh that potential profit against casual players who may turn to those products INSTEAD of buying packs if they were available, essentially costing them money.
While I do not have all of the numbers, I very strongly suspect that wizards has no financial incentive to do so and “what about the fans?” doesn’t seem to carry too much weight unless there are hordes of players demanding this sort of product... and there doesn’t seem to be. Some of wizards’ actions (especially with secret lairs) do not seem particularly consumer friendly but calling a company out for not making the specific product that I want... I would have a hard time blaming a company for following the money.
I’m always looking to be proven wrong, though. Wizards focused on professional players for so long that casual and EDH players were once referred to as invisible players and now MTG is kowtowing to commander players. If the theme deck lovers are numerous but disenfranchised, I hope that more of you can make yourselves heard.
They were trash for everything. They were trash against competitive decks, they were trash against solid casual decks. Everything with just a well done curve and the right removals could stomp a precon. They were the kind of products that only clueless newbie bought and threw away after understanding how the game works, usually while also feeling cheated by wotc.
If you bought 4 intro decks by yourself, played them against each other and had fun, good fun. But also realize this is a extremely niche way to play and you can't make a product just for people like you.
Commander precons are way better, can stand their ground against average commander decks and have also new cards.
Yep, classic magic sucks for casual plays while commander is amazing. Almost everyone has realized that.
Again, yes. They were terrible products, almost no one liked them. Regular magic is good for competitive but not for casual.
The sooner you realize this and stop fighting this windmill, the happier you will be.
You get as much or more value from $15 worth of booster packs as you did from any given intro deck. They weren't products designed for 'beginners,' they were products designed to take advantage of people who don't know that a secondary market exists. There might be good reasons to defend the concept of a theme deck, but the way they were executed, in practice, completely undermines your position that they were Magic's only / necessary point of entry to the game.
The proof, as they say, is in the pudding. You're engaging in some rather fervent mental gymnastics to explain how catering to the commander crowd is evidence that Wizards have no faith in their own product, when the most obvious, logical explanation is exactly what they're telling us: commander is so popular that it's attracting new players who have no problem paying $20+ for a deck.
Continuing to use the arbitrary definition that you've made up isn't going to sway anyone that such a thing exists. All this seems to indicate is that you don't understand how long term value works.
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#BLM
#DefundThePolice
I didn't make up the definition. You can't say that life starts at 20 and at 40. One is the regular rule, the other is the modified rules. I believe that Magic, how it was originally designed and evolved is the regular rules.
If you have played any old PC games yourself, you have heard of expansion packs, mods, or even source ports. What Brutal Doom is to Doom, Commander is to Magic. When I mention Regular Doom, most people would visualize Vanilla Doom. Commander is nothing more than a fan made mod to Magic. Sure, there are differences in rules between Magic in 1993 and the current rules. That's the same as the difference between Doom v1.0 and Doom v1.9.
You're just triggered because you like Commander, and by saying that Commander isn't the regular rules of the game, you don't feel "normal" and thus your feelings get hurt, while others would know what I mean when I say "regular rules".
Why is it that it takes some fan modifications to the game in order for people to not care if they win or lose? Has anybody even tried to build a deck that is better than intro packs, where the limit is 0 mythics, 2 rares, one of which must be a creature, 12 uncommons, 24 to 26 basic lands, the rest commons.
WOTC could easily make better 60 card precons for $15, but they don't do it. Intro packs only sucked, as if it was punishment because you didn't give WOTC enough money. It's as if they sold you crappy decks in hope for you to buy more product to improve or replace the deck. Then they see some people actually enjoying the crappy decks, and not spending any money on other products, and thus, they spit in our faces.
$15 precons suck, but that is true for any game. Ever win games against casual Pokemon TCG decks with a Theme Deck, or casual Yugioh decks with an unmodified Structure deck? At least those games gave you an option to spend $15 on a deck at the expense of the deck not being competitive or valuable. MTG no longer has that option.