Why is it that nobody wants to play Magic by its regular rules, but everybody who plays the Pokemon TCG would play the game by its intended rules?
It's been more than 10 years since i touched pokemon cards, but i guess the answer is that the casual environment is easier and friendlier and intro decks are better?
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
Why is it that nobody wants to play Magic by its regular rules, but everybody who plays the Pokemon TCG would play the game by its intended rules? I could probably think of some rules changes that would make the game way better, such changes adopted by games like Duel Masters, Cardfight Vanguard, and the Digimon TCG.
If people could figure out how to make a Commander-like game for Pokemon, I imagine it would be popular... But if that popularity would be sustainable for decades, who knows.
Why is it that nobody wants to play Magic by its regular rules, but everybody who plays the Pokemon TCG would play the game by its intended rules? I could probably think of some rules changes that would make the game way better, such changes adopted by games like Duel Masters, Cardfight Vanguard, and the Digimon TCG.
If people could figure out how to make a Commander-like game for Pokemon, I imagine it would be popular... But if that popularity would be sustainable for decades, who knows.
I think the main problem with making a multiplayer variant of Pokemon TCG is the lack of interaction on the opponent's turn. Almost everything is "sorcery speed" with some static abilities, so game strategy either relies on advanced setup or comboing off on your turn. Even in the anime, when a trainer is instructing their Pokemon to attack, the opposing trainer is able to instruct their Pokemon to do something in response. The card game doesn't have that interaction.
Why is it that nobody wants to play Magic by its regular rules, but everybody who plays the Pokemon TCG would play the game by its intended rules? I could probably think of some rules changes that would make the game way better, such changes adopted by games like Duel Masters, Cardfight Vanguard, and the Digimon TCG.
If people could figure out how to make a Commander-like game for Pokemon, I imagine it would be popular... But if that popularity would be sustainable for decades, who knows.
I think the main problem with making a multiplayer variant of Pokemon TCG is the lack of interaction on the opponent's turn. Almost everything is "sorcery speed" with some static abilities, so game strategy either relies on advanced setup or comboing off on your turn. Even in the anime, when a trainer is instructing their Pokemon to attack, the opposing trainer is able to instruct their Pokemon to do something in response. The card game doesn't have that interaction.
Isn't the "breadth of cards available across the entirety of Magic's history" comparable to Vintage or Legacy, though? I never bothered checking out the relative size of ban lists. I just think that a "format" is also another axis, another decorator you can add to a variant e. g. the 60-card Constructed variant can be played in different formats like Modern and Core Set 2021-Standard.
Yes, that was very much my point. EDH uses all the same "regular rules" of Magic, but functions predominantly as an alternate format. Personally, I don't like the phraseology of "regular"; it implies that anything outside of a specific person's subjective tastes is irregular, abnormal, unintentional, or otherwise part of an outgroup. It's a puritanical and, frankly, entitled way of perceiving the game.
The regular rules of magic has no command zone. You start at 20 life. There is no Archenemy. There are no Planechase cards.
If Commander is the regular rules of Magic, I can just make up a rule where the opponent gets a charlie horse every time they gets damaged, and that too, is the regular rules of Magic. See how dumb that sounds?
Pokemon is 60 cards, 6 prizes. There is a 30 card variant with 3 prizes. That is NOT the regular rules of Pokemon TCG, nor are Speed Duels the regular rules of Yugioh.
There are so many games and sports with a specific sets of rules. Just because you like to touch the ball with your hands while not being the goalkeeper does not make it that you are following the rules of soccer, no matter what house rules you are changing to the game of soccer in your rec league. It's like saying Gaelic football is football(soccer) when it's not. There is nothing wrong with saying a fact like Commander isn't regular Magic. Commander is Commander. There are probably so many games that use regular playing cards, you know, red black spades diamonds clubs hearts. Now you are saying I'm entitled by saying regular playing cards when we have cards like Magic and Uno.
You are saying you are abnormal for liking things that aren't labeled "regular". You being normal or not has nothing to do with you liking irregular things. Stop linking the two. Commander isn't regular magic. You are not abnormal for liking Commander.
No, they're disagreeing with you. Now excuse me, I'm going to play football, not play football.
Nope, it's fact. If Commander was regular Magic, Commander products don't need to say Commander. After all, it is regular Magic. If you want to play Commander, the person you want to play with would immediately know you want to play Commander if you said "Do you want to play Magic the Gathering" Does that happen? No.
Ask anyone to teach you MTG. They will not teach you how to play Commander unless you specifically told them you wanted to learn Commander.
No, they're disagreeing with you. Now excuse me, I'm going to play football, not play football.
Nope, it's fact. If Commander was regular Magic, Commander products don't need to say Commander. After all, it is regular Magic. If you want to play Commander, the person you want to play with would immediately know you want to play Commander if you said "Do you want to play Magic the Gathering" Does that happen? No.
Ask anyone to teach you MTG. They will not teach you how to play Commander unless you specifically told them you wanted to learn Commander.
I’m saying I don’t agree with your phraseology; it’s imprecise and has negative connotations.
For what it's worth: I think you have a point. The exact problem you were addressing wasn't originally apparent. Unfortunately it sounded snarky and hence mildly hostile, which is probably why it resulted in this big pointless discussion.
Many terms can be construed to have negative connotations though, whether it's "default" or "Core Game" and it's hard to understand which would be acceptable.
The regular rules of magic has no command zone. You start at 20 life. There is no Archenemy. There are no Planechase cards.
The Comprehensive Rules of Magic are an actual document that contains counterpoints to all of this. I am not aware of a document called the Regular Rules of Magic, but there ARE the "Basic Rules", so I assume we have our winner: You were referring to Basic Magic with terminology that implies the advanced variants are not regular, despite being featured not only in rules, but in the official published rules. Your choice of words delegitimatized valid supported variants/formats.
If Commander is the regular rules of Magic, I can just make up a rule where the opponent gets a charlie horse every time they gets damaged, and that too, is the regular rules of Magic. See how dumb that sounds?
Sounding dumb probably will prevent it from making it into the official rules, which Commander managed.
Take note: In the inciting post the question raised is not whether the base game of Magic is the default version of the game, or the basic rules are the default rules. It's just you seem really hung up on using the term "regular" without reflecting about it.
I'd bet if you had used the word "basic" instead of "regular" there would be no issue, because both terms casually refer to a "classic" "unmodified" state, but taking into account the full breadth of connotations one of them sounds less dismissive.
Communication is complicated.
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Heck, every day I wake up, I don't go out and kill people - and I'm rewarded by not having legions of enemies! Amazing how that works.
Although ninjas are experts of camouflage and concealment, they are actually horrible liars. This means that no matter where you are, you can shout out, “Are there any ninjas here?” and if there’s a ninja within earshot, he’ll be compelled to respond.
I’m saying I don’t agree with your phraseology; it’s imprecise and has negative connotations.
For what it's worth: I think you have a point. The exact problem you were addressing wasn't originally apparent. Unfortunately it sounded snarky and hence mildly hostile, which is probably why it resulted in this big pointless discussion.
Many terms can be construed to have negative connotations though, whether it's "default" or "Core Game" and it's hard to understand which would be acceptable.
The regular rules of magic has no command zone. You start at 20 life. There is no Archenemy. There are no Planechase cards.
The Comprehensive Rules of Magic are an actual document that contains counterpoints to all of this. I am not aware of a document called the Regular Rules of Magic, but there ARE the "Basic Rules", so I assume we have our winner: You were referring to Basic Magic with terminology that implies the advanced variants are not regular, despite being featured not only in rules, but in the official published rules. Your choice of words delegitimatized valid supported variants/formats.
If Commander is the regular rules of Magic, I can just make up a rule where the opponent gets a charlie horse every time they gets damaged, and that too, is the regular rules of Magic. See how dumb that sounds?
Sounding dumb probably will prevent it from making it into the official rules, which Commander managed.
Take note: In the inciting post the question raised is not whether the base game of Magic is the default version of the game, or the basic rules are the default rules. It's just you seem really hung up on using the term "regular" without reflecting about it.
I'd bet if you had used the word "basic" instead of "regular" there would be no issue, because both terms casually refer to a "classic" "unmodified" state, but taking into account the full breadth of connotations one of them sounds less dismissive.
Communication is complicated.
Think of these items.
Coke
Gas
Coffee
Cheerios
I have never heard anyone say basic Coke, basic gas, basic coffee, basic cheerios. It's always regular. So if I want to describe something that isn't the variant of something, wouldn't I then say that that something is the regular kind? I am also separating deck construction rules from the gameplay rules, kind of like how a sport has a specific set of rules, and some leagues have specific roster rules.
Just think about it. Cherry coke is still coke, it just isn't regular coke. The problem is that some of you are associating the the word "regular" to describe an item with the user of that item being "regular" or "normal". That isn't true. Normal people drink decaf coffee. They use supreme gas. They play on hard, not normal, difficulty. There are no negative connotations. Stop feeling bad for using something that isn't labeled as "regular" because people who eat cool ranch chips sure don't get offended by it.
We can all solve this by referring it to "standard rules:" Turn sequence, stacking, timing, attacking, etc, all apply across the board with a subset of specific rules that are differences among several instances i.e. win cons and damage sources. Infect has its own set of rules. Milling does. What about commander-marked damage? Exile zone is a thing across the board.
Commander follows the same gameplay rules with a rules plugin that applies mainly (exclusively?) to it. So it's "different" yet it's not at the same time.
*sips a latte*
'buster
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'buster
HR Analyst. Gamer. Activist | Fearless, and forthright | Aggro-control is a mindset. Elspeth and Jhoira rock my world.
If you want to play Commander, the person you want to play with would immediately know you want to play Commander if you said "Do you want to play Magic the Gathering" Does that happen? No.
Ask anyone to teach you MTG. They will not teach you how to play Commander unless you specifically told them you wanted to learn Commander.
The only answer to the question "Do you want to play Magic?" should be "What format?", because there is no default version of the game that everyone defers to. On those occasions that I've played Magic in a public space, people have come up to ask if I was playing Magic - they didn't think to specify whether it was "regular," commander, or anything else. Incidentally, we were playing commander, and we didn't bother to correct the question by responding "no, we're not playing Magic, we're playing commander." Not all Magic needs to be commander for all Commander to be Magic.
I agree that commander should not be the first format taught to a given person; having recently taught a friend how to play, I laid out all the options available first, because again, there is no default version of the game - just personal preference. The reason why I wouldn't teach commander first has absolutely nothing to do with any of the reasons you've given. Commander is a difficult first format to learn because of a) the sheer breadth of cards available, and b) the number of separate interactions to track across several players in a multiplayer game. Both of those things still fall under the limited description you keep giving us of "regular Magic."
There's definitely a kind of Magic that isn't regular, and it's silver border.
Draft still use the regular gameplay rules of magic though. I played with those 40 card theme decks from old core sets, and I still view it as regular magic.
The thing with infect or milling is that the cards alter the rules of the game. Isn't that what Magic is? You have the rules, and the cards you play change those rules.
With commander, you are basically playing with a different set of rules. In regular magic, you don't lose if a specific legendary creature deals you 20 damage, and you don't get to keep on playing that legendary creature with increasing mana costs.
Maybe at some point, Commander is regular magic. It just means your 20 starting life, no commander, ruleset used in almost every format is no longer regular magic.
Have any of you played Magic when Commander wasn't a thing? I could extend it to when EDH wasn't a thing? I use the term regular because back then, you only had the one ruleset. So how can I differentiate the status quo from the newcomer than to say the status quo is the regular kind? I would also say the 4 standard sets are regular sets, with everything else being special sets.
Here's one thing to think about in regards to anything not regular having negative connotations.
Regular season. So what is the alternative to a regular season? Playoffs or Postseason. There is also Offseason. You are basically saying that players should feel bad for making the Playoffs, or after they win that championship, they should feel bad because the offseason is coming. You can have a weird guy who likes regular things. You can have a normal person who likes anything not labeled regular. Just because you don't like regular things does not make you an abnormal person. Would it have been better if I just said plain Magic? When I say plain, I am thinking boring.
Speaking of boring, Theme Decks were the best, until they became intro packs and became boring to play with. WOTC does this all the time. They start up a new product line. The product is good at first, and over the years, they get worse and worse, or people are just bored of it, and then they cancel it, rather than just make the same product good again. I actually liked the premium deck series. Duel decks are another product. There's the masters series, but I don't buy those things. They used to experiment with multiplayer formats. It's now Commander, Commander, more Commander, always Commander.
I used to like it when WOTC made block constructed decks with the constraints of only having 2 rares, 12 uncommons, it must have a minimum of 24 lands, and there must be at least over 20 different cards. I'd like to see someone critical of intro packs do any better.
MTGS: come for the spoilers, stay for the weirdly aggressive semantic arguments.
The standing rules define commander as a "casual variant" and use the term "traditional" to describe Magic play using only the ruleset described before that section.
Adventures in the Forgotten Realms is not a core set, so they're doing the not-a-core-set thing they do now. That doesn't mean that they've completely abandoned introductory products. M21 has introductory decks, so they have until the end of the year to put out some kind of introductory product to replace that.
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It's been more than 10 years since i touched pokemon cards, but i guess the answer is that the casual environment is easier and friendlier and intro decks are better?
If people could figure out how to make a Commander-like game for Pokemon, I imagine it would be popular... But if that popularity would be sustainable for decades, who knows.
The Pokemon Company attempted a cooperative co-op variant called Raid Battles. However, it only used Pokemon cards and no other card types.
See: https://www.pokemon.com/us/pokemon-news/new-pokemon-tcg-raid-battles-let-you-battle-big-boss-pokemon-together/
I think the main problem with making a multiplayer variant of Pokemon TCG is the lack of interaction on the opponent's turn. Almost everything is "sorcery speed" with some static abilities, so game strategy either relies on advanced setup or comboing off on your turn. Even in the anime, when a trainer is instructing their Pokemon to attack, the opposing trainer is able to instruct their Pokemon to do something in response. The card game doesn't have that interaction.
That is actually really fair.
Yes, that was very much my point. EDH uses all the same "regular rules" of Magic, but functions predominantly as an alternate format. Personally, I don't like the phraseology of "regular"; it implies that anything outside of a specific person's subjective tastes is irregular, abnormal, unintentional, or otherwise part of an outgroup. It's a puritanical and, frankly, entitled way of perceiving the game.
---
#BLM
#DefundThePolice
If Commander is the regular rules of Magic, I can just make up a rule where the opponent gets a charlie horse every time they gets damaged, and that too, is the regular rules of Magic. See how dumb that sounds?
Pokemon is 60 cards, 6 prizes. There is a 30 card variant with 3 prizes. That is NOT the regular rules of Pokemon TCG, nor are Speed Duels the regular rules of Yugioh.
There are so many games and sports with a specific sets of rules. Just because you like to touch the ball with your hands while not being the goalkeeper does not make it that you are following the rules of soccer, no matter what house rules you are changing to the game of soccer in your rec league. It's like saying Gaelic football is football(soccer) when it's not. There is nothing wrong with saying a fact like Commander isn't regular Magic. Commander is Commander. There are probably so many games that use regular playing cards, you know, red black spades diamonds clubs hearts. Now you are saying I'm entitled by saying regular playing cards when we have cards like Magic and Uno.
---
#BLM
#DefundThePolice
How about decaf coffee? What do you call the other coffee? Regular coffee.
You basically think cherry coke, decaf coffee, mid-grade or supreme fuel have negative connotations.
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#BLM
#DefundThePolice
In regular magic, you still don't get to cast a legendary creature unless you play it from your hand or use card effects.
Strong disagree.
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#BLM
#DefundThePolice
You're disagreeing with facts.
No, they're disagreeing with you. Now excuse me, I'm going to play football, not play football.
Nope, it's fact. If Commander was regular Magic, Commander products don't need to say Commander. After all, it is regular Magic. If you want to play Commander, the person you want to play with would immediately know you want to play Commander if you said "Do you want to play Magic the Gathering" Does that happen? No.
Ask anyone to teach you MTG. They will not teach you how to play Commander unless you specifically told them you wanted to learn Commander.
*wooooooosh*
For what it's worth: I think you have a point. The exact problem you were addressing wasn't originally apparent. Unfortunately it sounded snarky and hence mildly hostile, which is probably why it resulted in this big pointless discussion.
Many terms can be construed to have negative connotations though, whether it's "default" or "Core Game" and it's hard to understand which would be acceptable.
The Comprehensive Rules of Magic are an actual document that contains counterpoints to all of this. I am not aware of a document called the Regular Rules of Magic, but there ARE the "Basic Rules", so I assume we have our winner: You were referring to Basic Magic with terminology that implies the advanced variants are not regular, despite being featured not only in rules, but in the official published rules. Your choice of words delegitimatized valid supported variants/formats.
Sounding dumb probably will prevent it from making it into the official rules, which Commander managed.
Take note: In the inciting post the question raised is not whether the base game of Magic is the default version of the game, or the basic rules are the default rules. It's just you seem really hung up on using the term "regular" without reflecting about it.
I'd bet if you had used the word "basic" instead of "regular" there would be no issue, because both terms casually refer to a "classic" "unmodified" state, but taking into account the full breadth of connotations one of them sounds less dismissive.
Communication is complicated.
Although ninjas are experts of camouflage and concealment, they are actually horrible liars. This means that no matter where you are, you can shout out, “Are there any ninjas here?” and if there’s a ninja within earshot, he’ll be compelled to respond.
Think of these items.
Coke
Gas
Coffee
Cheerios
I have never heard anyone say basic Coke, basic gas, basic coffee, basic cheerios. It's always regular. So if I want to describe something that isn't the variant of something, wouldn't I then say that that something is the regular kind? I am also separating deck construction rules from the gameplay rules, kind of like how a sport has a specific set of rules, and some leagues have specific roster rules.
Just think about it. Cherry coke is still coke, it just isn't regular coke. The problem is that some of you are associating the the word "regular" to describe an item with the user of that item being "regular" or "normal". That isn't true. Normal people drink decaf coffee. They use supreme gas. They play on hard, not normal, difficulty. There are no negative connotations. Stop feeling bad for using something that isn't labeled as "regular" because people who eat cool ranch chips sure don't get offended by it.
Commander follows the same gameplay rules with a rules plugin that applies mainly (exclusively?) to it. So it's "different" yet it's not at the same time.
*sips a latte*
'buster
HR Analyst. Gamer. Activist | Fearless, and forthright | Aggro-control is a mindset.
Elspeth and Jhoira rock my world.
The only answer to the question "Do you want to play Magic?" should be "What format?", because there is no default version of the game that everyone defers to. On those occasions that I've played Magic in a public space, people have come up to ask if I was playing Magic - they didn't think to specify whether it was "regular," commander, or anything else. Incidentally, we were playing commander, and we didn't bother to correct the question by responding "no, we're not playing Magic, we're playing commander." Not all Magic needs to be commander for all Commander to be Magic.
I agree that commander should not be the first format taught to a given person; having recently taught a friend how to play, I laid out all the options available first, because again, there is no default version of the game - just personal preference. The reason why I wouldn't teach commander first has absolutely nothing to do with any of the reasons you've given. Commander is a difficult first format to learn because of a) the sheer breadth of cards available, and b) the number of separate interactions to track across several players in a multiplayer game. Both of those things still fall under the limited description you keep giving us of "regular Magic."
There's definitely a kind of Magic that isn't regular, and it's silver border.
---
#BLM
#DefundThePolice
Yes it does. That's where emblems live.
Only Draft is regular Magic. Everything else is abnormal Magic. Prove me wrong.
Ok
'buster
HR Analyst. Gamer. Activist | Fearless, and forthright | Aggro-control is a mindset.
Elspeth and Jhoira rock my world.
The thing with infect or milling is that the cards alter the rules of the game. Isn't that what Magic is? You have the rules, and the cards you play change those rules.
With commander, you are basically playing with a different set of rules. In regular magic, you don't lose if a specific legendary creature deals you 20 damage, and you don't get to keep on playing that legendary creature with increasing mana costs.
Maybe at some point, Commander is regular magic. It just means your 20 starting life, no commander, ruleset used in almost every format is no longer regular magic.
Have any of you played Magic when Commander wasn't a thing? I could extend it to when EDH wasn't a thing? I use the term regular because back then, you only had the one ruleset. So how can I differentiate the status quo from the newcomer than to say the status quo is the regular kind? I would also say the 4 standard sets are regular sets, with everything else being special sets.
Here's one thing to think about in regards to anything not regular having negative connotations.
Regular season. So what is the alternative to a regular season? Playoffs or Postseason. There is also Offseason. You are basically saying that players should feel bad for making the Playoffs, or after they win that championship, they should feel bad because the offseason is coming. You can have a weird guy who likes regular things. You can have a normal person who likes anything not labeled regular. Just because you don't like regular things does not make you an abnormal person. Would it have been better if I just said plain Magic? When I say plain, I am thinking boring.
Speaking of boring, Theme Decks were the best, until they became intro packs and became boring to play with. WOTC does this all the time. They start up a new product line. The product is good at first, and over the years, they get worse and worse, or people are just bored of it, and then they cancel it, rather than just make the same product good again. I actually liked the premium deck series. Duel decks are another product. There's the masters series, but I don't buy those things. They used to experiment with multiplayer formats. It's now Commander, Commander, more Commander, always Commander.
I used to like it when WOTC made block constructed decks with the constraints of only having 2 rares, 12 uncommons, it must have a minimum of 24 lands, and there must be at least over 20 different cards. I'd like to see someone critical of intro packs do any better.
The standing rules define commander as a "casual variant" and use the term "traditional" to describe Magic play using only the ruleset described before that section.
Adventures in the Forgotten Realms is not a core set, so they're doing the not-a-core-set thing they do now. That doesn't mean that they've completely abandoned introductory products. M21 has introductory decks, so they have until the end of the year to put out some kind of introductory product to replace that.