I feel like they're kinda overdoing it with the amount of Commander products, but it is a very popular format so I can't really blame them. I just wish some of the cards that show up in those precons would get reprinted now and then so they aren't so bonkers expensive. (Kindred Dominance, anyone?)
It will be cool to see who they put in charge as commanders, though.
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Cheeseburger, french fries, chocolate shake, somebody's mind I's about to take!
Just wish that at least one of the 4 standard sets per year had precons that focused om 60 card regular rules Magic, not Commander. The only precons that do this in 2021 are the 4 Challenger decks, while in any other year with a core set, the precons would have been 5 planeswalker decks.
Much like how universes beyond tells us how WOTC has no confidence in creating their own stories, having the majority of precons be Commander precons shows that WOTC has no confidence in marketing the regular game to new and existing casual players.
WOTC said that those who want to learn with regular rules can use the Core Set Planeswalker decks. How can they play regular rules if not every year is guaranteed to have a Core Set, and thus no 60 card regular rules precons?
WOTC is basically alienating people who want to play 60 card casual by forcing new players into Commander, and thus less players who play 60 card casual, rather than letting New players choose. Mind as well overhaul the entire rulebook and make Commander the regular rules.
I wouldn't be surprised if WOTC screws up the Commander precon product line in a few years, sees that nobody buys it because of the screw up, and cancels it, just like every canceled product line before it.
Still mad that WOTC no longer makes sub $15 60 card regular rules precons anymore.
Just wish that at least one of the 4 standard sets per year had precons that focused om 60 card regular rules Magic, not Commander. The only precons that do this in 2021 are the 4 Challenger decks, while in any other year with a core set, the precons would have been 5 planeswalker decks.
I'm very confused. How do these two things not square for you?
And what do you mean by 'regular rules'? As far as I know, all rules are regular rules.
Just wish that at least one of the 4 standard sets per year had precons that focused om 60 card regular rules Magic, not Commander. The only precons that do this in 2021 are the 4 Challenger decks, while in any other year with a core set, the precons would have been 5 planeswalker decks.
I'm very confused. How do these two things not square for you?
And what do you mean by 'regular rules'? As far as I know, all rules are regular rules.
By your standards, 3 downs, goal posts in front of the end zone, 55 yard field, 20 yard end zones, 1 point if a punt of field goal miss ends up in the end zone, 1 yard buffer for line of scrimmage, 12 players per side, 1 foot in bounds is the regular rules for AMERICAN football, specifically the NFL. I mean, all rules are regular rules, right?
Commander is not regular Magic. Commander is a game that just uses magic cards. Are Poker and Blackjack the same game just because they use the same deck of cards? No.
The rules do not define what cards you can and cannot use, just how the game is played. If you think all rules are regular rules, you better re-read the rulebook.
O-okay. So by rules, you meant format - I think I understand you slightly better, but you still didn't answer the first question. You ask why they don't make 60 card decks at least once a year, and then point out... that they make 60 card decks at least once a year. Did you mean something different?
Just from the starting at 40 life, Command Zone, is enough to say that Commander and regular magic have different rules, just like how Canadian, American and Indoor football have different rules.
Every game has one set of rules. If there is a different way to play just because someone decided to rewrite the rules, then you have the modified rules, and the regular, original rules. I would argue that Vintage is the format with the original rules, but all of Vintage, Legacy, Modern, Standard all use the original rules. Commander does not. Unless WOTC specifically says that Magic the Gathering officially changes 20 starting life to 40 starting life, the addition of a Command Zone, and changing 60 card with 4 of max to 100 card singleton deck, Commander isn't the regular rules.
The only difference between constructed and limited is the deck size. You still play 20 life, no command zone, no Commander.
With Vintage, Legacy, Standard, Modern, and any limited format, you are basically playing the same game, and have the same interactions. The difference is the cards you are allowed to use. With Commander, you aren't even playing the same game anymore. To say otherwise is like saying Indoor, Canadian and American football are the same games, when it's not.
If I say let's play Magic the Gathering, do people think Commander? Probably not.
I said that out of the 4 standard sets per year, one of them should have your typical 60 card decks focused on the regular rules of Magic. I would also add that it should be the July set, or whatever set that replaces the Core Set. If a set is released in lieu of a Core Set, that set needs to have precons based on the regular rules of Magic, not Commander. You know, 20 life, 60 card decks with max 4 ofs. Challenger decks are not set associated precons. I am referring to set associated precons. Theme Decks, Intro Packs, Event Decks, Planeswalker Decks, Commander Decks from 2020 and later are set associated precons.
All I am saying is this. WOTC has no confidence in their own game, much so they are getting new player to play a modified version of their own game, because nobody wants to play Magic how it was originally designed. I also don't like how WOTC is focusing too much on Commander. Now the majority of precons released per year are commander decks, giving no options for those who just want to play Magic the normal way.
Commander is only going to get more popular for new players not because they like Commander, it is just that they have no choice.
I can tell you're very passionate about this. So you want Wizards to go back to selling the kinds of decks that were mostly unpopular, because you believe the ones they are selling - which actually resonate with consumer demand - implies they have no faith in their game? I would imagine their sales numbers, whatever those are, inform some degree of faith at the corporate level.
I'm saying that there are those people who still want to casually play MTG by its regular rules. What WOTC is doing is alienating them. At least in years where they have core sets, the core sets at least had Planeswalker Decks. This year, there isn't a core set. I would think that just because the D&D set takes the place of a Core Set, at least they would have Planeswalker Decks or any deck that focuses on the regular rules of Magic. But nope, it's Commander all the time every time. They have given people who want to learn via the regular rules no options. It's only one out the 4 sets per year. The other 3 still get Commander Decks. I doubt any of the Innistrad sets will come with Planeswalker Decks, so basically in 2021, assuming both Innistrad sets have 2 Commander Decks each, out of 17 precons, 13 of them are Commander Decks. Let's say for some reason WOTC makes lackluster Challenger Decks, and nobody buys them, and thus WOTC cancels the product line. We all know WOTC likes canceling product lines instead of making them better. This leaves Commander as the only precon options.
WOTC has no faith in their game because nobody wants to play regular magic casually anymore. They said screw it, and now are selling commander, which is a format that isn't originally conceived by WOTC. They aren't even trying to keep casual regular magic alive anymore. As I said, they would rather discontinue a product rather than make the product better. In this case, they are discontinuing regular magic for casual players.
Magic Youtubers also didn't help matters. I always collected the Theme Decks and Intro Packs and played them against each other. I liked them because they are playable out of the box and is cheap, and is fun in a casual setting. Most Youtubers are trying to steer new players away from these products because they aren't competitive enough for standard, or they don't have any value. New players listen to these people, don't buy them, WOTC sees they make no money from them, and now they are commander decks. The kinds of products they are steered towards are the more competitive precons or the Commander decks because Commander Decks have monetary value.
I highly doubt Theme Decks weren't unpopular at the time because Youtube wasn't there for people to tell other people how much the decks sucked competitively, or how the cards hold no value. People bought them and played with them. Most Youtubers say that Intro Packs sucks with the expectation that every new player wants to play Standard, or that every new player wants to make their money back from all the cards they purchased. It's as if you don't belong to the group if you are playing with a deck that isn't competitive or are using cards that have no monetary value.
There could be a chance that new players might look to be competitive or to have any purchase have monetary value, but youtube and social media influence sure doesn't help the casual, play with cheap crappy decks scene.
There is also the snowball effect. By promoting more Commander, the less and less people would want to play regular MTG. At one point, saying "Want to Play Magic?", people would start thinking Commander. At this point now, we are still having to say EDH or Commander to let other people know you want to play Commander. Just like how when people say Football, in both Canada or US, they are mostly referring to the outdoor American rules that the NFL uses. We have to specifically say Canadian or Arena football to refer to the other rules. Who knows if new players want to play Commander or regular Magic. New Players will player Commander if there are no product options for regular Magic.
Not every person is going to like every decision WotC makes, I think. That's the nature of business: doesn't matter if you alienate a few consumers if they were buying the least popular products.
It's hard to argue that commander is a good format for bringing in fresh blood, true, but I think they're banking on Arena to be the major onboarding platform for new players. Apart from that, in objective terms, what makes a good starter product? I would argue the challenger decks do just fine in that regard. As far as casual play is concerned, the kitchen table crowd is still more or less covered by cracking packs, and it's hard to argue that commander in general doesn't scratch that "casual" itch. Besides, the game's only been trending that way for a little over a year - it's a bit early to worry about the sky falling, given the general momentum of Magic in terms of design and marketing.
And what do you mean by 'regular rules'? As far as I know, all rules are regular rules.
If you read the comprehensive rules, I think, they refer to the rules "used in traditional Magic games".
Compare:
Quote from The Comprehensive Rules of Magic »
9. Casual Variants
900. General
900.1. This section contains additional optional rules that can be used for certain casual game variants. It is by no means comprehensive.
900.2. The casual variants detailed here use supplemental zones, rules, cards, and other game implements not used in traditional Magic games.
Commander in particular is described as a "variant". I would have assumed that in casual conversation "regular rules" is an acceptable way to communicate the core rules without variants. What do you think?
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I think commander isn't any further afield, in terms of rules, than is limited (sealed /draft) from what's being described here as "regular." Beyond the unique aspect of a persistent, deck defining attribute, what really sets commander apart is the sheer breadth of cards available across the entirety of Magic's history - therein lies the true barrier of entry, and the reason why I find "format" here as a means of differentiation far more appropriate. Not something entirely worthy of a whole digression, I'm afraid.
For better or for worse, this is the place people come to vent their frustrations about not getting a vey specific thing they wanted. I simply do my best to remind them that real happiness isn't having what you want, it's wanting what you have.
All I am saying is out of the four standard sets, one of them should have precons that focuses on regular rules. Just one. Is that so hard to ask? The more popular commander crowd can have the other 3 sets. I also read rumors that there isn't a core set for 2022 either, so when are new players get to have the choice of learning via the regular rules of magic? The Commmander Crowd would rather have 2 extra precon options from their already existing 11 choices at the expense of 5 precon options for regular rules magic players?
If by chance in 2022, assuming there is no core set in 2022, and thus all set associated precons are commander decks, that a new player wants to play Magic, but the playgroup plays the regular rules, and there are no precons for that person to buy, then what? That player's only option is the $30 challenger decks, build a deck from scratch from random cards in booster packs?
The best starter product needs to be constructed. It needs to focus on the regular rules. It needs to be under $15. It needs to give new players access to many different cards in the deck. This means multiple 4 ofs are out of the question. The deck has to be readily available. This means no chase cards in the deck. The deck must built so that the new player would want to improve on it, and thus, create deckbuilding confidence. Intro Packs never sold well because Youtubers and Social Media influence gives new players the impression that you are a loser for buying an Intro Pack.
The set associated commander decks are constructed. They do not focus on the regular rules. They are not under $15. They do give new players access to many different cards, and then some. The decks may or may not be readily available. Not sure if the Commander decks are bad enough that a new player would want to make changes to it to make it better. I don't think these Commander Decks give new players any deckbuilding confidence, meaning that they'd rather buy more decks than making their own.
WOTC also has a tendency to discontinue something rather than making it better.
I think commander isn't any further afield, in terms of rules, than is limited (sealed /draft) from what's being described here as "regular." Beyond the unique aspect of a persistent, deck defining attribute, what really sets commander apart is the sheer breadth of cards available across the entirety of Magic's history - therein lies the true barrier of entry, and the reason why I find "format" here as a means of differentiation far more appropriate. Not something entirely worthy of a whole digression, I'm afraid.
For better or for worse, this is the place people come to vent their frustrations about not getting a vey specific thing they wanted. I simply do my best to remind them that real happiness isn't having what you want, it's wanting what you have.
There are only one set of rules for any game. Anything else is a variant. What is the starting life for regular magic? 20 or 40 life? I would also argue that Sealed and Draft are variants. When people say they play Magic, what is the first thing that comes to mind? 60 card constructed.
You are basically saying to screw the people who love to play paper 60 card casual, and either play Magic Arena, Play Commander, or play competitive. Way to alienate them. How can you be happy if something you hold dear is taken away. I was happy with being able to buy $15 cheap physical precon decks and play them against each other casually. WOTC has taken that option away.
I mean, if I’m going to bring new players into the game, I’m not going to sell them on junk they’ll realize has little value once they start doing their own research. The challenger decks are just fine for people without established collections. If they can’t stomach a $25 buy-in, perhaps it’s just as well they stay away from Magic altogether.
I mean, if I’m going to bring new players into the game, I’m not going to sell them on junk they’ll realize has little value once they start doing their own research. The challenger decks are just fine for people without established collections. If they can’t stomach a $25 buy-in, perhaps it’s just as well they stay away from Magic altogether.
So you are alienating them. Sorry you can't afford the Challenger Deck, here's a Pokemon Theme Deck or Yugioh Structure Deck for you to buy.
Now tell me why, out of the precons released in 2021, that Commander deserves 2 more precons at the expense of 5 precons for regular magic? I don't need to explain why there should be 5 precons based on regular magic for the D&D set as opposed to 2 commander decks. Commander already has 11 options in the year, and they get released 4 times a year. Regular Magic precons only get released 2 times a year, and only get 9 options. Now you want those precons to be released once with 4 options, while Commander gets released 5 times in the year with 13 options? How is that fair?
WOTC is basically alienating people who want to play 60 card casual by forcing new players into Commander, and thus less players who play 60 card casual, rather than letting New players choose. Mind as well overhaul the entire rulebook and make Commander the regular rules.
Sorry bro, are you one of those rare animals who still plays 60-cards casual? Because you are almost extinct and wotc doesn't care, they fully embraced commander because it sells more.
If they decided to remove intro decks from forgotten realms is probably because Zendikar and Kaldheim commander decks sold way more than M21 decks.
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
The Commander decks sell more, that's it. Even Wizards' market research showed that most of the new players entered Magic through Commander, because they wanted to play with their friends who were playing Commander. That is what motivated WotC to make the change and get rid of the old planeswalker decks. I also used to play 60-card casual before, and I still have some duel decks that I play with a buddy from time to time, but it is clear that there are less and less players looking for that experience. Also, I don't think Magic Youtube channels and social media are responsible for this. If you're not already a Magic player, you are less likely to watch those channels and their content. As a matter of fact, I know of a board game Youtube channel featuring a casual Magic player who said that he actually prefers the Commander decks to the classic Intro Deck ones.
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Sorry for my possible english mistakes, I'm not a native speaker.
Even if Youtube and Social Media do not have direct influence to new players to not buy Intro Packs, it may tell established players who tell those new players not to buy Intro Packs either because they aren't competitive or hold no value. I get this aura from the Magic community that "buying intro packs are for losers".
Why is it that nobody wants to play Magic by its regular rules, but everybody who plays the Pokemon TCG would play the game by its intended rules? I could probably think of some rules changes that would make the game way better, such changes adopted by games like Duel Masters, Cardfight Vanguard, and the Digimon TCG.
Just think what could have been if WOTC kept the intro packs, included a code card that allowed you to bring that deck into Magic Arena.
Why is it that nobody wants to play Magic by its regular rules, but everybody who plays the Pokemon TCG would play the game by its intended rules? I could probably think of some rules changes that would make the game way better, such changes adopted by games like Duel Masters, Cardfight Vanguard, and the Digimon TCG.
Changing the core rules of the game is taking a huge risk, why would they do that when they have another ruleset already doing well?
Huh. I wonder what the themes of these decks would be. The only obvious one that stands out to me would be Adventurer's VS Monsters, and would work best if they only released 2 decks. I supposed they could do 5 and focus on like, the primary classes in like 2 color pairs, but I feel like it is important to show off the monsters.
Also, this seems like a great time to reintroduce Archenemy to the game; as it has a similar vibe to DM vs PCs. My friends and I used to play Archenemy Commander, which was really fun!
Some have suggested it could be set around tge 5 main factions of 5e, the Harpers, The Zhentarium, the Emerald Enclave, The Order of the Gauntlet, and the Lords Alliance. Alternately they could pick 5 rulers, say Szazz Tam, the Queen of Cormyr, Gilgeam God King of Unther, Ra Pharoah God of Mulhorand, Caliph of Calimshan for example. Or they could make the themes FR continents Katashaka, Kara Tur, Faerun, Osse, Maztica, Zakhara.
You could be right tjey could also do a Heroes vs Villians deck too.
I mean, if I’m going to bring new players into the game, I’m not going to sell them on junk they’ll realize has little value once they start doing their own research. The challenger decks are just fine for people without established collections. If they can’t stomach a $25 buy-in, perhaps it’s just as well they stay away from Magic altogether.
So you are alienating them. Sorry you can't afford the Challenger Deck, here's a Pokemon Theme Deck or Yugioh Structure Deck for you to buy.
Now tell me why, out of the precons released in 2021, that Commander deserves 2 more precons at the expense of 5 precons for regular magic? I don't need to explain why there should be 5 precons based on regular magic for the D&D set as opposed to 2 commander decks. Commander already has 11 options in the year, and they get released 4 times a year. Regular Magic precons only get released 2 times a year, and only get 9 options. Now you want those precons to be released once with 4 options, while Commander gets released 5 times in the year with 13 options? How is that fair?
I'm talking about me, as a player, bringing other people into the game, and I'm not alienating anyone. I would never recommend the products you're advocating for because it'll just lead to them feeling bad, and me feeling guilty, once they've grown into the game more and learned about value for themselves. And far better to be honest up front; Magic is a money sink, so if you're going to balk at $25, then moving beyond starter products is going to be a real challenge. If I were to lament the loss of anything right now, it'd be the welcome decks. I'd be far more comfortable recommending either something completely free, or something worth more than its $25 price point, than something that only costs $15 but is ultimately worth less.
All I am saying is out of the four standard sets, one of them should have precons that focuses on regular rules. Just one. Is that so hard to ask? The more popular commander crowd can have the other 3 sets. I also read rumors that there isn't a core set for 2022 either, so when are new players get to have the choice of learning via the regular rules of magic? The Commmander Crowd would rather have 2 extra precon options from their already existing 11 choices at the expense of 5 precon options for regular rules magic players?
If by chance in 2022, assuming there is no core set in 2022, and thus all set associated precons are commander decks, that a new player wants to play Magic, but the playgroup plays the regular rules, and there are no precons for that person to buy, then what? That player's only option is the $30 challenger decks, build a deck from scratch from random cards in booster packs?
The best starter product needs to be constructed. It needs to focus on the regular rules. It needs to be under $15. It needs to give new players access to many different cards in the deck. This means multiple 4 ofs are out of the question. The deck has to be readily available. This means no chase cards in the deck. The deck must built so that the new player would want to improve on it, and thus, create deckbuilding confidence. Intro Packs never sold well because Youtubers and Social Media influence gives new players the impression that you are a loser for buying an Intro Pack.
The set associated commander decks are constructed. They do not focus on the regular rules. They are not under $15. They do give new players access to many different cards, and then some. The decks may or may not be readily available. Not sure if the Commander decks are bad enough that a new player would want to make changes to it to make it better. I don't think these Commander Decks give new players any deckbuilding confidence, meaning that they'd rather buy more decks than making their own.
WOTC also has a tendency to discontinue something rather than making it better.
I think commander isn't any further afield, in terms of rules, than is limited (sealed /draft) from what's being described here as "regular." Beyond the unique aspect of a persistent, deck defining attribute, what really sets commander apart is the sheer breadth of cards available across the entirety of Magic's history - therein lies the true barrier of entry, and the reason why I find "format" here as a means of differentiation far more appropriate. Not something entirely worthy of a whole digression, I'm afraid.
For better or for worse, this is the place people come to vent their frustrations about not getting a vey specific thing they wanted. I simply do my best to remind them that real happiness isn't having what you want, it's wanting what you have.
There are only one set of rules for any game. Anything else is a variant. What is the starting life for regular magic? 20 or 40 life? I would also argue that Sealed and Draft are variants. When people say they play Magic, what is the first thing that comes to mind? 60 card constructed.
You are basically saying to screw the people who love to play paper 60 card casual, and either play Magic Arena, Play Commander, or play competitive. Way to alienate them. How can you be happy if something you hold dear is taken away. I was happy with being able to buy $15 cheap physical precon decks and play them against each other casually. WOTC has taken that option away.
I'm sympathetic, I thought Strixhaven should have gotten Planeswalker Decks instead of Commander 2021 Decks, which I felt should have gone to AFR set instead (after all Planeswalkers don't make sense in a D&D context). After all Strixhaven set already has 5 Planeswalkers in it, Will Kenrith, Rowan Kenrith, Professor Onyx, Lukka, and Kasmina. Also its school themed perfect for entry level products.
Perhaps they will still put out a starter kit or tool builder kit or something in addition to the AFR Commander Decks when AFR comes out.
There are 5 sets released in 2021, and assuming both Innistrad sets will have Commander decks, none of them have precons that focus on the regular rules.
I think commander isn't any further afield, in terms of rules, than is limited (sealed /draft) from what's being described here as "regular." Beyond the unique aspect of a persistent, deck defining attribute, what really sets commander apart is the sheer breadth of cards available across the entirety of Magic's history - therein lies the true barrier of entry, and the reason why I find "format" here as a means of differentiation far more appropriate. Not something entirely worthy of a whole digression, I'm afraid.
I agree that the difference between Limited and Constructed is about the same as the difference between Commander and _____, but your categorization as Commander being on the same level as them actually kind of reinforces my point, because while you seem to talk about Commander as primarily a Constructed format, I recall a recent release of a Commander Draft product, so "Limited" isn't exclusive to "_____". It's just that there are many named Constructed/Limited variants, e. g. Conspiracy Draft and Archenemy variants, but something has to be the default. And that's the one variant that doesn't get its own special name, but I can see it being called "regular".
Isn't the "breadth of cards available across the entirety of Magic's history" comparable to Vintage or Legacy, though? I never bothered checking out the relative size of ban lists. I just think that a "format" is also another axis, another decorator you can add to a variant e. g. the 60-card Constructed variant can be played in different formats like Modern and Core Set 2021-Standard.
Interestingly to the rules Limited/Constructed are neither variant nor format, yet there seems to be some pattern there. I really just enjoy thinking about this tangent and will abandon it now. Just sharing my point of view. I notice, you also already addressed the topic somewhere else.
For better or for worse, this is the place people come to vent their frustrations about not getting a very specific thing they wanted. I simply do my best to remind them that real happiness isn't having what you want, it's wanting what you have.
Oh, yeah. I definitely don't get to complain as much as some around here, because I don't tie myself to any particular variant or format to the exclusion of all others, but to bring things around to the original point you were referring to: Having some balance in pre-constructed decks that are not all weighing towards Commander seems like a reasonable desire. I used to enjoy them, too.
But hey! It's officially "Year of Commander", still, right? What else to expect?
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It will be cool to see who they put in charge as commanders, though.
Much like how universes beyond tells us how WOTC has no confidence in creating their own stories, having the majority of precons be Commander precons shows that WOTC has no confidence in marketing the regular game to new and existing casual players.
WOTC said that those who want to learn with regular rules can use the Core Set Planeswalker decks. How can they play regular rules if not every year is guaranteed to have a Core Set, and thus no 60 card regular rules precons?
WOTC is basically alienating people who want to play 60 card casual by forcing new players into Commander, and thus less players who play 60 card casual, rather than letting New players choose. Mind as well overhaul the entire rulebook and make Commander the regular rules.
I wouldn't be surprised if WOTC screws up the Commander precon product line in a few years, sees that nobody buys it because of the screw up, and cancels it, just like every canceled product line before it.
Still mad that WOTC no longer makes sub $15 60 card regular rules precons anymore.
I'm very confused. How do these two things not square for you?
And what do you mean by 'regular rules'? As far as I know, all rules are regular rules.
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By your standards, 3 downs, goal posts in front of the end zone, 55 yard field, 20 yard end zones, 1 point if a punt of field goal miss ends up in the end zone, 1 yard buffer for line of scrimmage, 12 players per side, 1 foot in bounds is the regular rules for AMERICAN football, specifically the NFL. I mean, all rules are regular rules, right?
Commander is not regular Magic. Commander is a game that just uses magic cards. Are Poker and Blackjack the same game just because they use the same deck of cards? No.
The rules do not define what cards you can and cannot use, just how the game is played. If you think all rules are regular rules, you better re-read the rulebook.
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Just from the starting at 40 life, Command Zone, is enough to say that Commander and regular magic have different rules, just like how Canadian, American and Indoor football have different rules.
Every game has one set of rules. If there is a different way to play just because someone decided to rewrite the rules, then you have the modified rules, and the regular, original rules. I would argue that Vintage is the format with the original rules, but all of Vintage, Legacy, Modern, Standard all use the original rules. Commander does not. Unless WOTC specifically says that Magic the Gathering officially changes 20 starting life to 40 starting life, the addition of a Command Zone, and changing 60 card with 4 of max to 100 card singleton deck, Commander isn't the regular rules.
The only difference between constructed and limited is the deck size. You still play 20 life, no command zone, no Commander.
With Vintage, Legacy, Standard, Modern, and any limited format, you are basically playing the same game, and have the same interactions. The difference is the cards you are allowed to use. With Commander, you aren't even playing the same game anymore. To say otherwise is like saying Indoor, Canadian and American football are the same games, when it's not.
If I say let's play Magic the Gathering, do people think Commander? Probably not.
I said that out of the 4 standard sets per year, one of them should have your typical 60 card decks focused on the regular rules of Magic. I would also add that it should be the July set, or whatever set that replaces the Core Set. If a set is released in lieu of a Core Set, that set needs to have precons based on the regular rules of Magic, not Commander. You know, 20 life, 60 card decks with max 4 ofs. Challenger decks are not set associated precons. I am referring to set associated precons. Theme Decks, Intro Packs, Event Decks, Planeswalker Decks, Commander Decks from 2020 and later are set associated precons.
All I am saying is this. WOTC has no confidence in their own game, much so they are getting new player to play a modified version of their own game, because nobody wants to play Magic how it was originally designed. I also don't like how WOTC is focusing too much on Commander. Now the majority of precons released per year are commander decks, giving no options for those who just want to play Magic the normal way.
Commander is only going to get more popular for new players not because they like Commander, it is just that they have no choice.
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WOTC has no faith in their game because nobody wants to play regular magic casually anymore. They said screw it, and now are selling commander, which is a format that isn't originally conceived by WOTC. They aren't even trying to keep casual regular magic alive anymore. As I said, they would rather discontinue a product rather than make the product better. In this case, they are discontinuing regular magic for casual players.
Magic Youtubers also didn't help matters. I always collected the Theme Decks and Intro Packs and played them against each other. I liked them because they are playable out of the box and is cheap, and is fun in a casual setting. Most Youtubers are trying to steer new players away from these products because they aren't competitive enough for standard, or they don't have any value. New players listen to these people, don't buy them, WOTC sees they make no money from them, and now they are commander decks. The kinds of products they are steered towards are the more competitive precons or the Commander decks because Commander Decks have monetary value.
I highly doubt Theme Decks weren't unpopular at the time because Youtube wasn't there for people to tell other people how much the decks sucked competitively, or how the cards hold no value. People bought them and played with them. Most Youtubers say that Intro Packs sucks with the expectation that every new player wants to play Standard, or that every new player wants to make their money back from all the cards they purchased. It's as if you don't belong to the group if you are playing with a deck that isn't competitive or are using cards that have no monetary value.
There could be a chance that new players might look to be competitive or to have any purchase have monetary value, but youtube and social media influence sure doesn't help the casual, play with cheap crappy decks scene.
There is also the snowball effect. By promoting more Commander, the less and less people would want to play regular MTG. At one point, saying "Want to Play Magic?", people would start thinking Commander. At this point now, we are still having to say EDH or Commander to let other people know you want to play Commander. Just like how when people say Football, in both Canada or US, they are mostly referring to the outdoor American rules that the NFL uses. We have to specifically say Canadian or Arena football to refer to the other rules. Who knows if new players want to play Commander or regular Magic. New Players will player Commander if there are no product options for regular Magic.
It's hard to argue that commander is a good format for bringing in fresh blood, true, but I think they're banking on Arena to be the major onboarding platform for new players. Apart from that, in objective terms, what makes a good starter product? I would argue the challenger decks do just fine in that regard. As far as casual play is concerned, the kitchen table crowd is still more or less covered by cracking packs, and it's hard to argue that commander in general doesn't scratch that "casual" itch. Besides, the game's only been trending that way for a little over a year - it's a bit early to worry about the sky falling, given the general momentum of Magic in terms of design and marketing.
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If you read the comprehensive rules, I think, they refer to the rules "used in traditional Magic games".
Compare:
Commander in particular is described as a "variant". I would have assumed that in casual conversation "regular rules" is an acceptable way to communicate the core rules without variants. What do you think?
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I think commander isn't any further afield, in terms of rules, than is limited (sealed /draft) from what's being described here as "regular." Beyond the unique aspect of a persistent, deck defining attribute, what really sets commander apart is the sheer breadth of cards available across the entirety of Magic's history - therein lies the true barrier of entry, and the reason why I find "format" here as a means of differentiation far more appropriate. Not something entirely worthy of a whole digression, I'm afraid.
For better or for worse, this is the place people come to vent their frustrations about not getting a vey specific thing they wanted. I simply do my best to remind them that real happiness isn't having what you want, it's wanting what you have.
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If by chance in 2022, assuming there is no core set in 2022, and thus all set associated precons are commander decks, that a new player wants to play Magic, but the playgroup plays the regular rules, and there are no precons for that person to buy, then what? That player's only option is the $30 challenger decks, build a deck from scratch from random cards in booster packs?
The best starter product needs to be constructed. It needs to focus on the regular rules. It needs to be under $15. It needs to give new players access to many different cards in the deck. This means multiple 4 ofs are out of the question. The deck has to be readily available. This means no chase cards in the deck. The deck must built so that the new player would want to improve on it, and thus, create deckbuilding confidence. Intro Packs never sold well because Youtubers and Social Media influence gives new players the impression that you are a loser for buying an Intro Pack.
The set associated commander decks are constructed. They do not focus on the regular rules. They are not under $15. They do give new players access to many different cards, and then some. The decks may or may not be readily available. Not sure if the Commander decks are bad enough that a new player would want to make changes to it to make it better. I don't think these Commander Decks give new players any deckbuilding confidence, meaning that they'd rather buy more decks than making their own.
WOTC also has a tendency to discontinue something rather than making it better.
There are only one set of rules for any game. Anything else is a variant. What is the starting life for regular magic? 20 or 40 life? I would also argue that Sealed and Draft are variants. When people say they play Magic, what is the first thing that comes to mind? 60 card constructed.
You are basically saying to screw the people who love to play paper 60 card casual, and either play Magic Arena, Play Commander, or play competitive. Way to alienate them. How can you be happy if something you hold dear is taken away. I was happy with being able to buy $15 cheap physical precon decks and play them against each other casually. WOTC has taken that option away.
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So you are alienating them. Sorry you can't afford the Challenger Deck, here's a Pokemon Theme Deck or Yugioh Structure Deck for you to buy.
Now tell me why, out of the precons released in 2021, that Commander deserves 2 more precons at the expense of 5 precons for regular magic? I don't need to explain why there should be 5 precons based on regular magic for the D&D set as opposed to 2 commander decks. Commander already has 11 options in the year, and they get released 4 times a year. Regular Magic precons only get released 2 times a year, and only get 9 options. Now you want those precons to be released once with 4 options, while Commander gets released 5 times in the year with 13 options? How is that fair?
Sorry bro, are you one of those rare animals who still plays 60-cards casual? Because you are almost extinct and wotc doesn't care, they fully embraced commander because it sells more.
If they decided to remove intro decks from forgotten realms is probably because Zendikar and Kaldheim commander decks sold way more than M21 decks.
Why is it that nobody wants to play Magic by its regular rules, but everybody who plays the Pokemon TCG would play the game by its intended rules? I could probably think of some rules changes that would make the game way better, such changes adopted by games like Duel Masters, Cardfight Vanguard, and the Digimon TCG.
Just think what could have been if WOTC kept the intro packs, included a code card that allowed you to bring that deck into Magic Arena.
They did that with the last wave of planeswalker decks if I remember correctly.
Some have suggested it could be set around tge 5 main factions of 5e, the Harpers, The Zhentarium, the Emerald Enclave, The Order of the Gauntlet, and the Lords Alliance. Alternately they could pick 5 rulers, say Szazz Tam, the Queen of Cormyr, Gilgeam God King of Unther, Ra Pharoah God of Mulhorand, Caliph of Calimshan for example. Or they could make the themes FR continents Katashaka, Kara Tur, Faerun, Osse, Maztica, Zakhara.
You could be right tjey could also do a Heroes vs Villians deck too.
I'm talking about me, as a player, bringing other people into the game, and I'm not alienating anyone. I would never recommend the products you're advocating for because it'll just lead to them feeling bad, and me feeling guilty, once they've grown into the game more and learned about value for themselves. And far better to be honest up front; Magic is a money sink, so if you're going to balk at $25, then moving beyond starter products is going to be a real challenge. If I were to lament the loss of anything right now, it'd be the welcome decks. I'd be far more comfortable recommending either something completely free, or something worth more than its $25 price point, than something that only costs $15 but is ultimately worth less.
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I'm sympathetic, I thought Strixhaven should have gotten Planeswalker Decks instead of Commander 2021 Decks, which I felt should have gone to AFR set instead (after all Planeswalkers don't make sense in a D&D context). After all Strixhaven set already has 5 Planeswalkers in it, Will Kenrith, Rowan Kenrith, Professor Onyx, Lukka, and Kasmina. Also its school themed perfect for entry level products.
Perhaps they will still put out a starter kit or tool builder kit or something in addition to the AFR Commander Decks when AFR comes out.
(Tiamat is just way way way to perfect for a 5-color legend card.)
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I agree that the difference between Limited and Constructed is about the same as the difference between Commander and _____, but your categorization as Commander being on the same level as them actually kind of reinforces my point, because while you seem to talk about Commander as primarily a Constructed format, I recall a recent release of a Commander Draft product, so "Limited" isn't exclusive to "_____". It's just that there are many named Constructed/Limited variants, e. g. Conspiracy Draft and Archenemy variants, but something has to be the default. And that's the one variant that doesn't get its own special name, but I can see it being called "regular".
Isn't the "breadth of cards available across the entirety of Magic's history" comparable to Vintage or Legacy, though? I never bothered checking out the relative size of ban lists. I just think that a "format" is also another axis, another decorator you can add to a variant e. g. the 60-card Constructed variant can be played in different formats like Modern and Core Set 2021-Standard.
Interestingly to the rules Limited/Constructed are neither variant nor format, yet there seems to be some pattern there. I really just enjoy thinking about this tangent and will abandon it now. Just sharing my point of view. I notice, you also already addressed the topic somewhere else.
Oh, yeah. I definitely don't get to complain as much as some around here, because I don't tie myself to any particular variant or format to the exclusion of all others, but to bring things around to the original point you were referring to: Having some balance in pre-constructed decks that are not all weighing towards Commander seems like a reasonable desire. I used to enjoy them, too.
But hey! It's officially "Year of Commander", still, right? What else to expect?
Although ninjas are experts of camouflage and concealment, they are actually horrible liars. This means that no matter where you are, you can shout out, “Are there any ninjas here?” and if there’s a ninja within earshot, he’ll be compelled to respond.