Honestly, over the last few years is that true? What white removal was super efficient that wasn't a board wipe? What massive white soup creature was there since Dominaria? Blue seems to be getting far better removal and green tends to have far more efficient creatures that surpass white.
I wanted to say Zetalpa, Primal Dawn, but Rivals of Ixalan actually came out just before Dominaria (where you are probably thinking of Lyra Dawnbringer).
A color that's typically behind in terms of raw card advantage or resources should have significantly better drops on-curve, but for some reason that's usually green's shtick - a color that also happens to get both card advantage and resources.
White gets the most efficient removal, the best 1 and 2 drops, and goes back and forth with green for efficiently costed keyword soup creatures, like Baneslayer Angel
Divine Gambit and Reduce to Memory are the two examples of why White does not get the best removal now-a-days. Blue got Ravenform and now Resculpt and Green tends to get the better creatures that out scale Whites curve. Black continues to also get better removal at all rarities as well.
A color that's typically behind in terms of raw card advantage or resources should have significantly better drops on-curve, but for some reason that's usually green's shtick - a color that also happens to get both card advantage and resources.
White gets the most efficient removal, the best 1 and 2 drops, and goes back and forth with green for efficiently costed keyword soup creatures, like Baneslayer Angel
As others have already pointed out, this is patently false on all accounts.
White has the most efficient removal in Path to Exile and Swords to Plowshares, two cards that are extremely limited on their format legality. Everything else is draft chaff, combat dependent, overpriced, has selective targeting restrictions, or sorcery speed. If you're referring to sweepers, white by no means has a monopoly on efficient board clears; just off the top of my head, Cyclonic Rift and Toxic Deluge are two of the better cards in EDH. In non-singleton formats, white's sweepers getting pushed to 5 mana has nearly trivialized their playability.
The best 1 and 2 drops probably belong to red, a color that excels at aggro and actually has enough gas to push past turn 3. RDW is a perennial contender; I can't remember the last time white weenie was a top tier archetype.
Baneslayer Angel was a product of its time and place, and fit into one particular deck archetype that disproportionately dominated the standard environment. It's proven to be less than stellar in EDH, hasn't seen much play in non-singleton formats since its halcyon days back in the 2011/12 meta, and I'm at a loss to think up any other examples of "keyword soup" in mono white that've been viable at any point these past 10 years.
A color that's typically behind in terms of raw card advantage or resources should have significantly better drops on-curve, but for some reason that's usually green's shtick - a color that also happens to get both card advantage and resources.
White gets the most efficient removal, the best 1 and 2 drops, and goes back and forth with green for efficiently costed keyword soup creatures, like Baneslayer Angel
As others have already pointed out, this is patently false on all accounts.
White has the most efficient removal in Path to Exile and Swords to Plowshares, two cards that are extremely limited on their format legality. Everything else is draft chaff, combat dependent, overpriced, has selective targeting restrictions, or sorcery speed. If you're referring to sweepers, white by no means has a monopoly on efficient board clears; just off the top of my head, Cyclonic Rift and Toxic Deluge are two of the better cards in EDH. In non-singleton formats, white's sweepers getting pushed to 5 mana has nearly trivialized their playability.
The best 1 and 2 drops probably belong to red, a color that excels at aggro and actually has enough gas to push past turn 3. RDW is a perennial contender; I can't remember the last time white weenie was a top tier archetype.
Baneslayer Angel was a product of its time and place, and fit into one particular deck archetype that disproportionately dominated the standard environment. It's proven to be less than stellar in EDH, hasn't seen much play in non-singleton formats since its halcyon days back in the 2011/12 meta, and I'm at a loss to think up any other examples of "keyword soup" in mono white that've been viable at any point these past 10 years.
Patently false because of people's poor short term memories is pretty funny. Please, go on more about how three people on a tiny forum can't remember the last 3 years.
Wait, so when you criticize White's point removal, you mention it only gets it in nonstandard formats, but the only better board wipes you mention are also outside of Standard? Weird dichotomy there.
Path to Exile isn't in Standard or Historic. It's legal in Modern, Legacy, Vintage, and Commander. Swords only misses that list by 1 format. They aren't that limited in legality.
White weenie is currently a top tier build in standard. Not much of a memory if it can't remember things currently occurring. White almost always has multiple 2/1 for 1s with upside in standard, and many see play in other formats as well. In addition, it gets things like Mother of Runes in the 1 slot.
White gets the most efficient removal, the best 1 and 2 drops, and goes back and forth with green for efficiently costed keyword soup creatures, like Baneslayer Angel
Honestly, over the last few years is that true? What white removal was super efficient that wasn't a board wipe? What massive white soup creature was there since Dominaria? Blue seems to be getting far better removal and green tends to have far more efficient creatures that surpass white.
You didn’t specify a format so I covered the breadth of what’s most popular, within the context of white’s current trajectory. White has two of the objectively most powerful, single target removal spells ever printed, yet accounts for only 2 of any given 99 cards in one popular format, and as you pointed out, only Path to Exile is legal in modern - neither of those cards are legal in arguably two of the other most popular formats, which you also mentioned. The point wasn’t that white has no removal, only that it’s not the “most efficient” compared to what mono black or black + X has been churning out in recent years. You made a comparative statement that others had already disproven, and I didn’t feel like being redundant here.
Again, as far as comparative statements go: does white have a lot of sweepers? Sure. Are they the “most efficient”? I would argue no, given the push to MV5 in recent years and the diversity of efficient board removal in other colors. Playable (or even prolific) does not equate to “most efficient.”
According to the metrics I’m seeing, standard mono white aggro accounts for ~5% of the current meta. Mono red is closer to 15-20% (near the top) and also sports efficient 1 and 2 drops, as does dimir rogues (7-12%). Mono white ranks 8th according to the top google hit for "standard tier list," though to be fair the two archetypes directly above it also hover in the 5% range. Whether or not that qualifies as top tier is, I suppose, somewhat subjective.
I see a lot of people complaining about white in EDH, and I fully empathize. The casual cards you listed may be fun to certain people, but are still emblematic of the design philosophies holding white back in one of the most popular formats. They are certainly not what I would describe as being above-curve, which is what I strongly feel white needs in terms of win conditions if its card advantage and ramp potential continue to languish.
You didn’t specify a format so I covered the breadth of what’s most popular, within the context of white’s current trajectory. White has two of the objectively most powerful, single target removal spells ever printed, yet accounts for only 2 of any given 99 cards in one popular format, and as you pointed out, only Path to Exile is legal in modern - neither of those cards are legal in arguably two of the other most popular formats, which you also mentioned. The point wasn’t that white has no removal, only that it’s not the “most efficient” compared to what mono black or black + X has been churning out in recent years. You made a comparative statement that others had already disproven, and I didn’t feel like being redundant here.
What black point removal in commander even comes close to Path or Swords? If you jump formats between discussions, you lose coherence. Nothing has been proven, either, besides your inconsistency.
Again, as far as comparative statements go: does white have a lot of sweepers? Sure. Are they the “most efficient”? I would argue no, given the push to MV5 in recent years and the diversity of efficient board removal in other colors. Playable (or even prolific) does not equate to “most efficient.”
So Black's one good board wipe in commander doesn't equate to 1 of 99 cards, but white's plethora of them is meaningless?
According to the metrics I’m seeing, standard mono white aggro accounts for ~5% of the current meta. Mono red is closer to 15-20% (near the top) and also sports efficient 1 and 2 drops, as does dimir rogues (7-12%).
So 1/20 winning decks play monowhite, and Black got a high synergy deck? Did I say it was the best deck? No, but it is still in the top tier. It's literally the 4th most winning deck in Standard.
I see a lot of people complaining about white in EDH, and I fully empathize. The casual cards you listed may be fun to certain people, but are still emblematic of the design philosophies holding white back in one of the most popular formats. They are certainly not what I would describe as being above-curve, which is what I strongly feel white needs in terms of win conditions if its card advantage and ramp potential continue to languish.
Almost no monocolor decks do great in commander. It's a 4-5 color format. It gets plenty of cards to play in those decks, and sees plenty of casual play in monocolor. If you want to play competitively, you have to accept that you can't always play your pet favorites and win consistently. This has been Magic forever.
What black point removal in commander even comes close to Path or Swords? If you jump formats between discussions, you lose coherence. Nothing has been proven, either, besides your inconsistency.
None, but that was kinda the point and I think you missed it. PtE and StP stand out above the rest, and I admitted it as much. Nothing else in white really comes close, and everything else that does exist in white is, at best, on par with other colors. Even blue is getting exile effects at instant. It's a pretty big clue that white is struggling if one of its premier effects is no longer better than everything else.
So Black's one good board wipe in commander doesn't equate to 1 of 99 cards, but white's plethora of them is meaningless?
Black has several, actually, and I could name them all if you like. Did I imply meaningless? I feel that I pretty clearly communicated that there's quite a few of them and they are playable, but you continue to ignore your own choice of words. You said "most efficient," and I've provided a fair amount of evidence to the contrary. Unless you meant "they have the most," and also happen to be efficient, but that's different.
So 1/20 winning decks play monowhite, and Black got a high synergy deck? Did I say it was the best deck? No, but it is still in the top tier. It's literally the 4th most winning deck in Standard.
You said white has "the best 1 and 2 drops," which would seem to imply they outclass the 1 and 2 drops from each other color. Since those other colors also have competitive 1 and 2 drops, and their decks have between marginal and significantly higher representation / win rates in standard than white, I would (again) argue that your basic premise is patently untrue. My source(s) for the data points I provided were mtgdecks.net and mtggoldfish.com, in that order; where are you getting "4th most winning deck" from?
Almost no monocolor decks do great in commander. It's a 4-5 color format. It gets plenty of cards to play in those decks, and sees plenty of casual play in monocolor. If you want to play competitively, you have to accept that you can't always play your pet favorites and win consistently. This has been Magic forever.
For context, the entire point of this discussion was about white's intrinsic qualities, for better or for worse. Out of all the individual colors, it's the one that suffers most due to past and current design philosophies, so it's hard to have a conversation about how to improve on that core concept without judging it against itself, or against other colors, on a 1-for-1 basis. I would argue that there's actually a strong case to be made for every mono color deck in EDH except white, but that's a bit of a digression (I'm not even going to address the concept of competitive EDH). White is, inarguably, the absolute worst color in EDH, by itself or paired with others. Comparatively speaking, no other color suffers from such an abject lack of power, speed, or flexibility, and the strengths that used to be the hallmark of white are increasingly trivialized as more and more sets are released. What's the point of having the best removal from yesteryear if you still can't manage a viable win condition?
What black point removal in commander even comes close to Path or Swords? If you jump formats between discussions, you lose coherence. Nothing has been proven, either, besides your inconsistency.
None, but that was kinda the point and I think you missed it. PtE and StP stand out above the rest, and I admitted it as much. Nothing else in white really comes close, and everything else that does exist in white is, at best, on par with other colors. Even blue is getting exile effects at instant. It's a pretty big clue that white is struggling if one of its premier effects is no longer better than everything else.
[/card]
Which of white's premier effects is it no longer best at?
So Black's one good board wipe in commander doesn't equate to 1 of 99 cards, but white's plethora of them is meaningless?
Black has several, actually, and I could name them all if you like. Did I imply meaningless? I feel that I pretty clearly communicated that there's quite a few of them and they are playable, but you continue to ignore your own choice of words. You said "most efficient," and I've provided a fair amount of evidence to the contrary. Unless you meant "they have the most," and also happen to be efficient, but that's different.
They have the most and most efficient board wipes. Black gets one that sorta compares. Show me the board wipes outside of white then. Why bother saying you can provide examples without actually doing so?
So 1/20 winning decks play monowhite, and Black got a high synergy deck? Did I say it was the best deck? No, but it is still in the top tier. It's literally the 4th most winning deck in Standard.
You said white has "the best 1 and 2 drops," which would seem to imply they outclass the 1 and 2 drops from each other color. Since those other colors also have competitive 1 and 2 drops, and their decks have between marginal and significantly higher representation / win rates in standard than white, I would (again) argue that your basic premise is patently untrue. My source(s) for the data points I provided were mtgdecks.net and mtggoldfish.com, in that order; where are you getting "4th most winning deck" from?[/quote]
Where are you getting 20% of the field from?
How does best 1 and 2 drops suddenly mean best win rates?
Can you stay on topic, or do you need more hand holding than I am providing?
Almost no monocolor decks do great in commander. It's a 4-5 color format. It gets plenty of cards to play in those decks, and sees plenty of casual play in monocolor. If you want to play competitively, you have to accept that you can't always play your pet favorites and win consistently. This has been Magic forever.
For context, the entire point of this discussion was about white's intrinsic qualities, for better or for worse. Out of all the individual colors, it's the one that suffers most due to past and current design philosophies, so it's hard to have a conversation about how to improve on that core concept without judging it against itself, or against other colors, on a 1-for-1 basis. I would argue that there's actually a strong case to be made for every mono color deck in EDH except white, but that's a bit of a digression (I'm not even going to address the concept of competitive EDH). White is, inarguably, the absolute worst color in EDH, by itself or paired with others. Comparatively speaking, no other color suffers from such an abject lack of power, speed, or flexibility, and the strengths that used to be the hallmark of white are increasingly trivialized as more and more sets are released. What's the point of having the best removal from yesteryear if you still can't manage a viable win condition? [/quote]
Sounds like you play a really.insular meta. That sucks
Before we continue, can you stop making personal attacks? I would greatly appreciate it if we both maintained some level of mutual respect, whether or not we agree.
On the topic of white having the best removal i think that time was over a long time ago. I mean I agree StP and PtE are among the if not the best spot removals IMO but what we get nowadays is mostly meh to bad with one or two few exceptions. Similar thing to the creature thing usually green and reds pack more punch. There is a reason in the top 100 Commanders according to edh rec every mono color is represented except white (even Colorless is above that)
And in standard of the 50 most played cards (according to MTGGoldfish) there are only 2 white cards Yorion on rank 22 and Casket on 26 with 2 black and three red removals above them and the first cheap creatures are both green and haymakers being red/green.
Now I don't think white is as ba as people make it out to be but they get the short stick more often than any other color, thats why I get exited when they get a treat thrown their way (Skyclave, Smothering Tithe, Teferis Protection)
The part where white shines is unfortunately not that useful in EDH, as I still think white is the Sideboard Color in Modern. It is a an ok auxillary color in EDH. But not for the wraths though as my personal order for wraths go: Rift , Toxic Deluge, Blasphemous Act then Austere Command then back to nonwhite with stuff like In garruks wake, crux or extinction event.
As for spot removal in EDH besides STP and PTE my Top ones are pongify, Rapid Hybridization, Reality shift, Anguished Unmaking, Chaos Warp, then Generous Gift/Beast Within. so besides Gift and the aforementioned white has to share one of my Favourites with black.
I play white for cards like Smothering Tithe or Teferis Protection.
Which of white's premier effects is it no longer best at?
Targeted removal. This has been addressed multiple times now.
They have the most and most efficient board wipes.
Strong disagree on that second part, and I think I've already said as much.
Black gets one that sorta compares. Show me the board wipes outside of white then. Why bother saying you can provide examples without actually doing so?
Which of white's premier effects is it no longer best at?
Targeted removal. This has been addressed multiple times now.
They have the most and most efficient board wipes.
Strong disagree on that second part, and I think I've already said as much.
Black gets one that sorta compares. Show me the board wipes outside of white then. Why bother saying you can provide examples without actually doing so?
How does best 1 and 2 drops suddenly mean best win rates?
Uh, the two links I gave you. I'd still like to hear your source, if you don't mind.
Do you have a better metric for defining "best 1 and 2 drops" apart from their very measurable success rates (or lack thereof)?
Sounds like you play a really.insular meta. That sucks
Okay. White being the weakest color in EDH, by a very wide margin, is almost universally acknowledged by the entire Magic community.
Black is the premier color of targeted removal and will likely never get a spell as good as Swords/ Path for it. White is already ahead and it's not the best color at it.
Black has Toxic Deluge and Damnation for board wipes that come close to on par with what white gets. None of the others you listed are better or more efficient than white's board wipes. 2/99 cards.
How does "success in Standard" equate to "has the best 1 and 2 drops"? Bizarre leap you keep taking for reasons I don't have the crayons to figure out.
Damn, it's not the 4th most winning color. Guess underperformed for 2 weeks in a single format is all the data needed. Thanks for the link?
Before we continue, can you stop making personal attacks? I would greatly appreciate it if we both maintained some level of mutual respect, whether or not we agree.
Not sure where you see either a personal attack, or where you've done anything to earn my respect, but I have treated you with all due dignity. I am not accountable for the thinness of your skin.
Why in the hell would anyone try to argue that White hasn’t been left behind? I guess some people on the internet just need to be argumentative contrarians.
Black is the premier color of targeted removal and will likely never get a spell as good as Swords/ Path for it. White is already ahead and it's not the best color at it.
White will also not see another card as good as PtE or StP, so as far as trajectory goes it's at least on par with every other color in that regard. Apart from that, at least we can finally both agree that black is more efficient.
Black has Toxic Deluge and Damnation for board wipes that come close to on par with what white gets. None of the others you listed are better or more efficient than white's board wipes. 2/99 cards.
By what metric are you judging efficiency here? EDH curves out much differently than historic / modern / standard etc, so even 6-7 drops are perfectly viable. Pretty much everything I listed are top black cards on EDHREC, have similar or better effects than what you listed, and maybe cost an average of ~1 mana more in a format that really doesn't care. It sounds like you're making the mistake of thinking what used to be efficient in standard (MV4 sweepers) somehow translates to EDH; it doesn't.
How does "success in Standard" equate to "has the best 1 and 2 drops"? Bizarre leap you keep taking for reasons I don't have the crayons to figure out.
Well, one of us needed to provide an objective measure, and it wasn't you. Do you have evidence to provide that proves me wrong, or are you going to keep engaging in logical fallacies?
Is it universally acknowledged, or are you in a bubble? I forgot when you were elected to speak for the community.
White is not the strongest color but it isn't as straight cut trash as your whining implies it is.
It is, yes, and I'm not saying anything that every other respectable MTG news site hasn't already made a case for themselves. I also never said, nor implied, that it was "trash"; if you somehow inferred that from the evidence I provided, then at least we may be approaching the same conclusion.
Also of note, white has literally the only agro 1 drop that is playable in commander.
That would mean more to me if EDH was a format that, as a whole, actually cared about aggro. There are plenty of non-aggro 1 drops across all colors that could be described as efficient, playable, viable, etc. Personally, I think something as simple as Viscera Seer does as much or more for a given deck's game plan than Serra Ascendant, but your mileage may vary.
Black has Toxic Deluge and Damnation for board wipes that come close to on par with what white gets. None of the others you listed are better or more efficient than white's board wipes.
If by "more efficent" you talk about mana value, than sure, you're probably right, but you can't say that a black mass removal that says "destroy all creatures and planeswalkers you don't control" is not better than any "destroy all creatures" effect. Black clearly do better than white in terms of mass removal at higher mana costs so you can't say that black is both worse and inefficent than white in every sense, because that's not true.
I do believe Demonstrate validates my guess vis-a-vis Gavin's hints:
There is a red creature with flash that, upon entering the battlefield, casts a popular, old multiplayer spell.
Chain Lightning, probably in the prismari deck. I'm ready to receive all your cookies.
I don't think that follows at all. Chain lightning isn't a popular multiplayer card - it's an iconic old burn spell that inspired the "chain of" cycle, which probably inspired this "demonstrate" mechanic. But a lightning bolt with demonstrate, or a creature that casts a lightning bolt with demonstrate when it enters the battlefield, isn't chain lightning. The "copy for me, copy for you" on demonstrate is not chain lightning's RR to copy effect. And demonstrate seems like it was clearly designed to be the marquee commander-focused mechanic that we get a cycle of practically every year - while it is possible the red demonstrate spell would be a simple lightning bolt, that seems a little boring and wouldn't be tied to a creature.
I do believe Demonstrate validates my guess vis-a-vis Gavin's hints:
There is a red creature with flash that, upon entering the battlefield, casts a popular, old multiplayer spell.
Chain Lightning, probably in the prismari deck. I'm ready to receive all your cookies.
I don't think that follows at all. Chain lightning isn't a popular multiplayer card - it's an iconic old burn spell that inspired the "chain of" cycle, which probably inspired this "demonstrate" mechanic. But a lightning bolt with demonstrate, or a creature that casts a lightning bolt with demonstrate when it enters the battlefield, isn't chain lightning. The "copy for me, copy for you" on demonstrate is not chain lightning's RR to copy effect. And demonstrate seems like it was clearly designed to be the marquee commander-focused mechanic that we get a cycle of practically every year - while it is possible the red demonstrate spell would be a simple lightning bolt, that seems a little boring and wouldn't be tied to a creature.
They spoiled the cards today, and it wasn't Chain Lightning after all. No cookies for me this round. :/
I could really do with less cards that show people barfing up money ... one was already more than enough
The cards are OK, but I'm not that excited for most of them. Alibou is neat I guess, as is Losheel. But they just couldn't help themselves and had to put combat-related text on all of the secondary commanders. Is it that scary to try something different? I really wish they would've gone deeper into the activated ability theme. I like how Alibou supports it though, you can attack with a random token and still get extra damage from your tappers and mana rocks.
Yeah I wasn't expecting the same exact art direction for this one. I kinda hate it to be honest because it feels like it is REALLY trying hard to be smotjering tithe on all fronts.
Why in the hell would anyone try to argue that White hasn’t been left behind? I guess some people on the internet just need to be argumentative contrarians.
I am saying that white isn't as far behind as others are saying. I'm saying it doesn't need to be #1 to be good, and that it sees plenty of play in multiple formats as is.
I guess unless I believe the sky is constantly falling, I'm a contrarian.
Does everyone on this forum have some sort of personality disorder or something? It is like always so all or nothing with you people.
Public Mod Note
(boombox_smk):
Making blanket statements about the community and throwing around insults targeting peoples mental health are not acceptable.
Black is the premier color of targeted removal and will likely never get a spell as good as Swords/ Path for it. White is already ahead and it's not the best color at it.
White will also not see another card as good as PtE or StP, so as far as trajectory goes it's at least on par with every other color in that regard. Apart from that, at least we can finally both agree that black is more efficient.
Black has Toxic Deluge and Damnation for board wipes that come close to on par with what white gets. None of the others you listed are better or more efficient than white's board wipes. 2/99 cards.
By what metric are you judging efficiency here? EDH curves out much differently than historic / modern / standard etc, so even 6-7 drops are perfectly viable. Pretty much everything I listed are top black cards on EDHREC, have similar or better effects than what you listed, and maybe cost an average of ~1 mana more in a format that really doesn't care. It sounds like you're making the mistake of thinking what used to be efficient in standard (MV4 sweepers) somehow translates to EDH; it doesn't.
How does "success in Standard" equate to "has the best 1 and 2 drops"? Bizarre leap you keep taking for reasons I don't have the crayons to figure out.
Well, one of us needed to provide an objective measure, and it wasn't you. Do you have evidence to provide that proves me wrong, or are you going to keep engaging in logical fallacies?
Is it universally acknowledged, or are you in a bubble? I forgot when you were elected to speak for the community.
White is not the strongest color but it isn't as straight cut trash as your whining implies it is.
It is, yes, and I'm not saying anything that every other respectable MTG news site hasn't already made a case for themselves. I also never said, nor implied, that it was "trash"; if you somehow inferred that from the evidence I provided, then at least we may be approaching the same conclusion.
Also of note, white has literally the only agro 1 drop that is playable in commander.
That would mean more to me if EDH was a format that, as a whole, actually cared about aggro. There are plenty of non-aggro 1 drops across all colors that could be described as efficient, playable, viable, etc. Personally, I think something as simple as Viscera Seer does as much or more for a given deck's game plan than Serra Ascendant, but your mileage may vary.
So the trajectory is being fixed so that the premier color can catch up in Standard and Historic? Feature, not a flaw.
Yes, when you play super casually, mana curves stop mattering. So do things like metas, which cards see more or less play, strategy, etc.
I still don't see how "has the best 1 and 2 drops" equates to "which one sees more standard play" is setting a goalpost that is relevant. Two completely unrelated things.
I inferred it from the incessant whining. Also, what percentage of Magic players do you think actually follow those circle jerk MTG news sites?
Ah yes, the person who believes mana costs don't matter also doesn't believe that having access to the only aggressive 1 drop creature in a format means anything. If mana cost doesn't matter, what makes Toxic Deluge, the card you keep bringing up, so good?
Black has Toxic Deluge and Damnation for board wipes that come close to on par with what white gets. None of the others you listed are better or more efficient than white's board wipes.
If by "more efficent" you talk about mana value, than sure, you're probably right, but you can't say that a black mass removal that says "destroy all creatures and planeswalkers you don't control" is not better than any "destroy all creatures" effect. Black clearly do better than white in terms of mass removal at higher mana costs so you can't say that black is both worse and inefficent than white in every sense, because that's not true.
At 9 mana, it could be winning you the game instead of just clearing a few permanents. White can do better for 4 mana than black does at 9. For 8 mana, white can include artifacts and enchantments in the board wipe, and double as a tap land in a pinch.
So the trajectory is being fixed so that the premier color can catch up in Standard and Historic? Feature, not a flaw.
The current trajectory has been steadily downward since those two powerhouse removal cards we just discussed, otherwise there'd be more of them to talk about. These past two sets may prove to be a watershed moment for other parts of white's identity, but only the future will bear that out, not your say-so.
Yes, when you play super casually, mana curves stop mattering. So do things like metas, which cards see more or less play, strategy, etc.
If this was about competitive EDH (a contradiction in terms so far as I'm concerned, but to each their own) this whole time, you could have let on several posts ago. That would have strengthened your position better than any number of snarky personal attacks.
I still don't see how "has the best 1 and 2 drops" equates to "which one sees more standard play" is setting a goalpost that is relevant. Two completely unrelated things.
Actually, you brought up standard first after I mentioned white weenie decks. Really though? You don't see how the best decks might also have the best cards in them, that's a correlation that didn't occur to you?
I inferred it from the incessant whining. Also, what percentage of Magic players do you think actually follow those circle jerk MTG news sites?
This style of rhetoric isn't doing you any favors, friend.
Ah yes, the person who believes mana costs don't matter also doesn't believe that having access to the only aggressive 1 drop creature in a format means anything.
Not that the personal judgments I render should mean anything to a given player, but I don't think highly of people who need Serra Ascendant on turn 1 to win, or feel good about doing it. Sort of contrary to the entire point of EDH, but I digress. You're misrepresenting my point here: I didn't say "mana costs don't matter," I said the curve is shifted up, which would imply both that the sweet spot for MV is consequently higher and that lower MV is also somewhat trivialized. Not a hard and fast rule, and there are obvious exceptions, but nothing that contradicts my broader assertion. Most people spend their early turns dropping mana rocks or ramping, not plotting their masterstroke with Savannah Lions or Clergy of the Holy Nimbus. If you're still mystified as to why I chose standard instead of, say, EDH to disprove your statement about white having the best 1 or 2 drops, it's precisely because EDH is the format where those sort of drops matter the least.
I notice that you didn't say I was wrong about black sweepers this time. Progress!
If mana cost doesn't matter, what makes Toxic Deluge, the card you keep bringing up, so good?
Again, not what I said but I'll humor you: because it kills indestructible creatures in a format where gods and the like are fairly prevalent. EDH tends to be a playground for cards that cost life instead of mana because your starting total is conspicuously higher (and easier to get back), not always necessarily because the card itself is cheap.
At 9 mana, it could be winning you the game instead of just clearing a few permanents. White can do better for 4 mana than black does at 9. For 8 mana, white can include artifacts and enchantments in the board wipe, and double as a tap land in a pinch.
There's quite a lot you can do with 9 mana in just about every color except... white. What are you doing to win the game with 9 mana in white?!
Divine Gambit and Reduce to Memory are the two examples of why White does not get the best removal now-a-days. Blue got Ravenform and now Resculpt and Green tends to get the better creatures that out scale Whites curve. Black continues to also get better removal at all rarities as well.
As others have already pointed out, this is patently false on all accounts.
White has the most efficient removal in Path to Exile and Swords to Plowshares, two cards that are extremely limited on their format legality. Everything else is draft chaff, combat dependent, overpriced, has selective targeting restrictions, or sorcery speed. If you're referring to sweepers, white by no means has a monopoly on efficient board clears; just off the top of my head, Cyclonic Rift and Toxic Deluge are two of the better cards in EDH. In non-singleton formats, white's sweepers getting pushed to 5 mana has nearly trivialized their playability.
The best 1 and 2 drops probably belong to red, a color that excels at aggro and actually has enough gas to push past turn 3. RDW is a perennial contender; I can't remember the last time white weenie was a top tier archetype.
Baneslayer Angel was a product of its time and place, and fit into one particular deck archetype that disproportionately dominated the standard environment. It's proven to be less than stellar in EDH, hasn't seen much play in non-singleton formats since its halcyon days back in the 2011/12 meta, and I'm at a loss to think up any other examples of "keyword soup" in mono white that've been viable at any point these past 10 years.
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Patently false because of people's poor short term memories is pretty funny. Please, go on more about how three people on a tiny forum can't remember the last 3 years.
Wait, so when you criticize White's point removal, you mention it only gets it in nonstandard formats, but the only better board wipes you mention are also outside of Standard? Weird dichotomy there.
Path to Exile isn't in Standard or Historic. It's legal in Modern, Legacy, Vintage, and Commander. Swords only misses that list by 1 format. They aren't that limited in legality.
Even in standard, white gets Skyclave Apparition, Shatter the Sky, Doomskar, and Sigrid, God-Favored as solid removal options that all see play.
In Commander you get Terminus, Catastrophe, Cataclysm, Winds of Abandon, Wrath of God, and more for very playable board wipes.
White weenie is currently a top tier build in standard. Not much of a memory if it can't remember things currently occurring. White almost always has multiple 2/1 for 1s with upside in standard, and many see play in other formats as well. In addition, it gets things like Mother of Runes in the 1 slot.
Odric, Luminarch Marshal is a popular casual Commander card, Angel of Invention saw plenty of play in it's standard, as did Aerial Responder. Zetalpa, Primal Dawn is a fairly popular finisher in commander, as is Akroma's Will. You also have things like Elite Inquisitor that show up pretty frequently and are almost keyword soup.
It seems the issue has less to do with white's flaws and more to do with your analytical skills.
Skyclave Apparition, Kabira Takedown, I mean, even Glass Casket sees far more play than the blue removal spells that have supposedly been better than white's.
What good green 1 drops are there anymore? Even it's 2 drops are pretty iffy.
Baneslayer Angel is currently in Standard.
Ignoring that white is the only good color for board wipes in Standard is a hilarious way to believe that white doesn't get good removal.
You didn’t specify a format so I covered the breadth of what’s most popular, within the context of white’s current trajectory. White has two of the objectively most powerful, single target removal spells ever printed, yet accounts for only 2 of any given 99 cards in one popular format, and as you pointed out, only Path to Exile is legal in modern - neither of those cards are legal in arguably two of the other most popular formats, which you also mentioned. The point wasn’t that white has no removal, only that it’s not the “most efficient” compared to what mono black or black + X has been churning out in recent years. You made a comparative statement that others had already disproven, and I didn’t feel like being redundant here.
Again, as far as comparative statements go: does white have a lot of sweepers? Sure. Are they the “most efficient”? I would argue no, given the push to MV5 in recent years and the diversity of efficient board removal in other colors. Playable (or even prolific) does not equate to “most efficient.”
According to the metrics I’m seeing, standard mono white aggro accounts for ~5% of the current meta. Mono red is closer to 15-20% (near the top) and also sports efficient 1 and 2 drops, as does dimir rogues (7-12%). Mono white ranks 8th according to the top google hit for "standard tier list," though to be fair the two archetypes directly above it also hover in the 5% range. Whether or not that qualifies as top tier is, I suppose, somewhat subjective.
I see a lot of people complaining about white in EDH, and I fully empathize. The casual cards you listed may be fun to certain people, but are still emblematic of the design philosophies holding white back in one of the most popular formats. They are certainly not what I would describe as being above-curve, which is what I strongly feel white needs in terms of win conditions if its card advantage and ramp potential continue to languish.
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What black point removal in commander even comes close to Path or Swords? If you jump formats between discussions, you lose coherence. Nothing has been proven, either, besides your inconsistency.
So Black's one good board wipe in commander doesn't equate to 1 of 99 cards, but white's plethora of them is meaningless?
So 1/20 winning decks play monowhite, and Black got a high synergy deck? Did I say it was the best deck? No, but it is still in the top tier. It's literally the 4th most winning deck in Standard.
Almost no monocolor decks do great in commander. It's a 4-5 color format. It gets plenty of cards to play in those decks, and sees plenty of casual play in monocolor. If you want to play competitively, you have to accept that you can't always play your pet favorites and win consistently. This has been Magic forever.
None, but that was kinda the point and I think you missed it. PtE and StP stand out above the rest, and I admitted it as much. Nothing else in white really comes close, and everything else that does exist in white is, at best, on par with other colors. Even blue is getting exile effects at instant. It's a pretty big clue that white is struggling if one of its premier effects is no longer better than everything else.
Black has several, actually, and I could name them all if you like. Did I imply meaningless? I feel that I pretty clearly communicated that there's quite a few of them and they are playable, but you continue to ignore your own choice of words. You said "most efficient," and I've provided a fair amount of evidence to the contrary. Unless you meant "they have the most," and also happen to be efficient, but that's different.
You said white has "the best 1 and 2 drops," which would seem to imply they outclass the 1 and 2 drops from each other color. Since those other colors also have competitive 1 and 2 drops, and their decks have between marginal and significantly higher representation / win rates in standard than white, I would (again) argue that your basic premise is patently untrue. My source(s) for the data points I provided were mtgdecks.net and mtggoldfish.com, in that order; where are you getting "4th most winning deck" from?
For context, the entire point of this discussion was about white's intrinsic qualities, for better or for worse. Out of all the individual colors, it's the one that suffers most due to past and current design philosophies, so it's hard to have a conversation about how to improve on that core concept without judging it against itself, or against other colors, on a 1-for-1 basis. I would argue that there's actually a strong case to be made for every mono color deck in EDH except white, but that's a bit of a digression (I'm not even going to address the concept of competitive EDH). White is, inarguably, the absolute worst color in EDH, by itself or paired with others. Comparatively speaking, no other color suffers from such an abject lack of power, speed, or flexibility, and the strengths that used to be the hallmark of white are increasingly trivialized as more and more sets are released. What's the point of having the best removal from yesteryear if you still can't manage a viable win condition?
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They have the most and most efficient board wipes. Black gets one that sorta compares. Show me the board wipes outside of white then. Why bother saying you can provide examples without actually doing so?
You said white has "the best 1 and 2 drops," which would seem to imply they outclass the 1 and 2 drops from each other color. Since those other colors also have competitive 1 and 2 drops, and their decks have between marginal and significantly higher representation / win rates in standard than white, I would (again) argue that your basic premise is patently untrue. My source(s) for the data points I provided were mtgdecks.net and mtggoldfish.com, in that order; where are you getting "4th most winning deck" from?[/quote]
Where are you getting 20% of the field from?
How does best 1 and 2 drops suddenly mean best win rates?
Can you stay on topic, or do you need more hand holding than I am providing?
For context, the entire point of this discussion was about white's intrinsic qualities, for better or for worse. Out of all the individual colors, it's the one that suffers most due to past and current design philosophies, so it's hard to have a conversation about how to improve on that core concept without judging it against itself, or against other colors, on a 1-for-1 basis. I would argue that there's actually a strong case to be made for every mono color deck in EDH except white, but that's a bit of a digression (I'm not even going to address the concept of competitive EDH). White is, inarguably, the absolute worst color in EDH, by itself or paired with others. Comparatively speaking, no other color suffers from such an abject lack of power, speed, or flexibility, and the strengths that used to be the hallmark of white are increasingly trivialized as more and more sets are released. What's the point of having the best removal from yesteryear if you still can't manage a viable win condition? [/quote]
Sounds like you play a really.insular meta. That sucks
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On the topic of white having the best removal i think that time was over a long time ago. I mean I agree StP and PtE are among the if not the best spot removals IMO but what we get nowadays is mostly meh to bad with one or two few exceptions. Similar thing to the creature thing usually green and reds pack more punch. There is a reason in the top 100 Commanders according to edh rec every mono color is represented except white (even Colorless is above that)
And in standard of the 50 most played cards (according to MTGGoldfish) there are only 2 white cards Yorion on rank 22 and Casket on 26 with 2 black and three red removals above them and the first cheap creatures are both green and haymakers being red/green.
Now I don't think white is as ba as people make it out to be but they get the short stick more often than any other color, thats why I get exited when they get a treat thrown their way (Skyclave, Smothering Tithe, Teferis Protection)
The part where white shines is unfortunately not that useful in EDH, as I still think white is the Sideboard Color in Modern. It is a an ok auxillary color in EDH. But not for the wraths though as my personal order for wraths go: Rift , Toxic Deluge, Blasphemous Act then Austere Command then back to nonwhite with stuff like In garruks wake, crux or extinction event.
As for spot removal in EDH besides STP and PTE my Top ones are pongify, Rapid Hybridization, Reality shift, Anguished Unmaking, Chaos Warp, then Generous Gift/Beast Within. so besides Gift and the aforementioned white has to share one of my Favourites with black.
I play white for cards like Smothering Tithe or Teferis Protection.
Targeted removal. This has been addressed multiple times now.
Strong disagree on that second part, and I think I've already said as much.
Because if you play as much EDH as you claim to then you already know what they are? But I'll humor you: Black Sun's Zenith, Crux of Fate, Damnation, Decree of Pain, In Garruk's Wake, Kindred Dominance, Mutilate, Necromantic Selection, Overwhelming Forces, Toxic Deluge; special mention to Living Death.
Uh, the two links I gave you. I'd still like to hear your source, if you don't mind.
Do you have a better metric for defining "best 1 and 2 drops" apart from their very measurable success rates (or lack thereof)?
Okay. White being the weakest color in EDH, by a very wide margin, is almost universally acknowledged by the entire Magic community.
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Black is the premier color of targeted removal and will likely never get a spell as good as Swords/ Path for it. White is already ahead and it's not the best color at it.
Black has Toxic Deluge and Damnation for board wipes that come close to on par with what white gets. None of the others you listed are better or more efficient than white's board wipes. 2/99 cards.
How does "success in Standard" equate to "has the best 1 and 2 drops"? Bizarre leap you keep taking for reasons I don't have the crayons to figure out.
Damn, it's not the 4th most winning color. Guess underperformed for 2 weeks in a single format is all the data needed. Thanks for the link?
Oh wait
https://aetherhub.com/MTGA-Decks/Standard-BO1/
Is it universally acknowledged, or are you in a bubble? I forgot when you were elected to speak for the community.
White is not the strongest color but it isn't as straight cut trash as your whining implies it is.
Not sure where you see either a personal attack, or where you've done anything to earn my respect, but I have treated you with all due dignity. I am not accountable for the thinness of your skin.
White will also not see another card as good as PtE or StP, so as far as trajectory goes it's at least on par with every other color in that regard. Apart from that, at least we can finally both agree that black is more efficient.
By what metric are you judging efficiency here? EDH curves out much differently than historic / modern / standard etc, so even 6-7 drops are perfectly viable. Pretty much everything I listed are top black cards on EDHREC, have similar or better effects than what you listed, and maybe cost an average of ~1 mana more in a format that really doesn't care. It sounds like you're making the mistake of thinking what used to be efficient in standard (MV4 sweepers) somehow translates to EDH; it doesn't.
Well, one of us needed to provide an objective measure, and it wasn't you. Do you have evidence to provide that proves me wrong, or are you going to keep engaging in logical fallacies?
It is, yes, and I'm not saying anything that every other respectable MTG news site hasn't already made a case for themselves. I also never said, nor implied, that it was "trash"; if you somehow inferred that from the evidence I provided, then at least we may be approaching the same conclusion.
That would mean more to me if EDH was a format that, as a whole, actually cared about aggro. There are plenty of non-aggro 1 drops across all colors that could be described as efficient, playable, viable, etc. Personally, I think something as simple as Viscera Seer does as much or more for a given deck's game plan than Serra Ascendant, but your mileage may vary.
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If by "more efficent" you talk about mana value, than sure, you're probably right, but you can't say that a black mass removal that says "destroy all creatures and planeswalkers you don't control" is not better than any "destroy all creatures" effect. Black clearly do better than white in terms of mass removal at higher mana costs so you can't say that black is both worse and inefficent than white in every sense, because that's not true.
I don't think that follows at all. Chain lightning isn't a popular multiplayer card - it's an iconic old burn spell that inspired the "chain of" cycle, which probably inspired this "demonstrate" mechanic. But a lightning bolt with demonstrate, or a creature that casts a lightning bolt with demonstrate when it enters the battlefield, isn't chain lightning. The "copy for me, copy for you" on demonstrate is not chain lightning's RR to copy effect. And demonstrate seems like it was clearly designed to be the marquee commander-focused mechanic that we get a cycle of practically every year - while it is possible the red demonstrate spell would be a simple lightning bolt, that seems a little boring and wouldn't be tied to a creature.
They spoiled the cards today, and it wasn't Chain Lightning after all. No cookies for me this round. :/
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Yeah I wasn't expecting the same exact art direction for this one. I kinda hate it to be honest because it feels like it is REALLY trying hard to be smotjering tithe on all fronts.
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Commander: Allies & Adversaries
I am saying that white isn't as far behind as others are saying. I'm saying it doesn't need to be #1 to be good, and that it sees plenty of play in multiple formats as is.
I guess unless I believe the sky is constantly falling, I'm a contrarian.
Does everyone on this forum have some sort of personality disorder or something? It is like always so all or nothing with you people.
So the trajectory is being fixed so that the premier color can catch up in Standard and Historic? Feature, not a flaw.
Yes, when you play super casually, mana curves stop mattering. So do things like metas, which cards see more or less play, strategy, etc.
I still don't see how "has the best 1 and 2 drops" equates to "which one sees more standard play" is setting a goalpost that is relevant. Two completely unrelated things.
I inferred it from the incessant whining. Also, what percentage of Magic players do you think actually follow those circle jerk MTG news sites?
Ah yes, the person who believes mana costs don't matter also doesn't believe that having access to the only aggressive 1 drop creature in a format means anything. If mana cost doesn't matter, what makes Toxic Deluge, the card you keep bringing up, so good?
At 9 mana, it could be winning you the game instead of just clearing a few permanents. White can do better for 4 mana than black does at 9. For 8 mana, white can include artifacts and enchantments in the board wipe, and double as a tap land in a pinch.
The current trajectory has been steadily downward since those two powerhouse removal cards we just discussed, otherwise there'd be more of them to talk about. These past two sets may prove to be a watershed moment for other parts of white's identity, but only the future will bear that out, not your say-so.
If this was about competitive EDH (a contradiction in terms so far as I'm concerned, but to each their own) this whole time, you could have let on several posts ago. That would have strengthened your position better than any number of snarky personal attacks.
Actually, you brought up standard first after I mentioned white weenie decks. Really though? You don't see how the best decks might also have the best cards in them, that's a correlation that didn't occur to you?
This style of rhetoric isn't doing you any favors, friend.
Not that the personal judgments I render should mean anything to a given player, but I don't think highly of people who need Serra Ascendant on turn 1 to win, or feel good about doing it. Sort of contrary to the entire point of EDH, but I digress. You're misrepresenting my point here: I didn't say "mana costs don't matter," I said the curve is shifted up, which would imply both that the sweet spot for MV is consequently higher and that lower MV is also somewhat trivialized. Not a hard and fast rule, and there are obvious exceptions, but nothing that contradicts my broader assertion. Most people spend their early turns dropping mana rocks or ramping, not plotting their masterstroke with Savannah Lions or Clergy of the Holy Nimbus. If you're still mystified as to why I chose standard instead of, say, EDH to disprove your statement about white having the best 1 or 2 drops, it's precisely because EDH is the format where those sort of drops matter the least.
I notice that you didn't say I was wrong about black sweepers this time. Progress!
Again, not what I said but I'll humor you: because it kills indestructible creatures in a format where gods and the like are fairly prevalent. EDH tends to be a playground for cards that cost life instead of mana because your starting total is conspicuously higher (and easier to get back), not always necessarily because the card itself is cheap.
There's quite a lot you can do with 9 mana in just about every color except... white. What are you doing to win the game with 9 mana in white?!
(I know it's not casting Tooth and Nail)
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