And before you idiots start a witch hunt about "well those cards arent mechanically unique or breaking the IP that is Magic" I will have tou know that I currently have several EDH decks that I have commissioned custom arts for the Commanders because I LIKE the idea of a crossover in Magic! I dont sweat over FNM or local tournaments. I play the game to mostly have fun and to EXPRESS MYSELF. If these IP crossovers make it easier for me or anyone else to do that while bringing more lifeblood into the game with more casual kitchen table players, I am okay with that.
Don't get the wrong idea I like the idea of IP Crossovers in MTG when the big concern is what specific IP's Wizards of the Coast / Hasbro chooses that could either make or break the game. A Poll to determine what kinds of IP Crossovers we wanted has already been tossed aside because by the time the votes are officially cast Wizards of the Coast / Hasbro would've already finished designing an MTG product that's either superior or inferior towards it where the results of that poll would already be on the back burner. There's definitely a lot of potential with this but Universes Beyond pretty much confirms that the MTG lore itself is in uncharted territory.
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
Am I suddenly going to tell people they cant play with cards if they came from Time Spiral Remastered?
Nobody is saying that though.
All people are saying is "If you play UB I might not play with you or not play a second match with you."
And you know, if you would say that to me about Time Spiral Remastered cards? Sure. That's fair. I wouldn't be mad, because you are free to play and not play what you want. The idea of being entitled to playing with a specific person literally never crossed my mind before this thread.
I don't know why you guys keep having to twist "I don't want to play this" into "I tell people they can't play this" in order to make people who don't like UB look like unreasonable ********s. It's almost as if there is no good moral/ethical argument against not wanting to play UB.
It's not really any different from how people currently curate their playgroups, except instead of something slightly more nebulous like "I won't play against land destruction" (does Sun Titan + Tectonic Edge count?) you can filter cards by border color or holo stamp.
One of my friends runs Negan, the Cold-Blooded as his Mardu Commander and I don't have a problem with him playing it in my EDH playgroups.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
America Bless Christ Jesus
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
Claiming every magic product isn't for everyone is a fine sentiment, but it misses the key point in that players in eternal formats don't enjoy that luxury. Now that is a rarefied field of people who have the whale bank to roll expensive cards or who were there for them, but the fact remains that if these cards are legal, then they are possible and therefore could be thought to be necessary to certain builds. It's literally a situation where something "not being for someone" is absolutely irrelevant because the thing exists and could be used against you, so whether or not it is for you is absolutely inconsequential. And the fact that they will either never be reprinted because of the IP or will be open to functional reprints, which in turn will mean that the people they were "for" will have twice the amount of a spell that people who they weren't for, people who missed out or whatever, will be left out. This is a hypothetical and silly I know, but it is illustrative. Imagine if "Bilbo's Revelation" was something on the level of, say, a Brainstorm. As they are loathe to ban things in Vintage, now you have a weapon certain people will be able to access, that they won't be able to reprint, and therefore they have a choice: ban the card, which questions why it existed in the Vintage landscape in the first place and which is, as I said, highly unlikely, or they can print a functional reprint, thus ensuring that a busted card is there twice. We can continue on with any number of other examples of something that could be a real problem in duplicate, functional format. So this above all else is the problem. We are setting up a defacto reserved list, one that encourages a functional FOMO that extends far beyond the issues they experienced with the Walking Dead. That's a stick up. If this was a game without competitive aspects, cool. But it's a game set up around forced scarcity and playability. If they came out and stated that a certain amount of these cards will be allowed to be reprinted as named, that would at least be something. If they held a certain amount in reserve that could be acquired later on via some sort of trade in, cool beans. But as it is, it's not cool. It has wonderful possibilities, but blithely stating it is "for only some people" is to be stating something they know is not the case when it comes to a competitive game. I would argue that it is the result of Hasbro's turn toward higher profitability as they lean toward their highest profit sectors (I know about this as an investor), which is fine as a business. But this isn't a purely esthetic choice, but a mechanical one as well, and they are seeking to expand their sales numbers. Maro being a good employee (as one would expect from someone who feeds his family) will of course make such arguments, but they are hollow and should be regarded as the comments of someone with a vested interested in the business first and the game's longer term health second. And let's all be frank here. Maro is getting older. I hope he both lives and works for many years to come. But he may not still be in that position when these actions cause real issues, so perhaps that is a factor to consider as well in regards to his thoughts.
I reiterate Maro's saying about NOT EVERY MAGIC PRODUCT IS FOR EVERYONE!
Well, thats a fundamental problem in Magic right now, the amount of products that cater only to a fringe sub-group, instead of producing a coherent product that everyone can enjoy.
Magic products should be for everyone.
To intentionally producing a product you know that some will outright dislike (and not by accident, but intentionally) is downright bogus, as its completely artificially and counterproductive.
The entire point of "Magic products are not for everyone" should at best be an optional part.
So a card exists in several artwork, pick one you like, you have the choice.
If the choice becomes just "Buy this or dont" and you get a kick in the nuts for good measure too, which customer is serving that kind of business practice?
Its splitting the customer base intentionally into camps, instead of bringing anybody together.
And the real irony is that they have already ways that work well.
Extra artwork in booster packs, great, nobody "complains" about that kind of stuff, as they can always choose whatever they enjoy.
Taking that choice away by only providing 1 option and then making that card important for a format is downright destructive, intentionally bad business practice, not an accident, but doing harm to the community with intention ... and thats just stupidity at best, or sabotage by incompetence.
The idea of bringing more artwork to the game is great, everyone welcomes that, as long as they have a choice, perfect, nobody is put in a corner, thats basically something we probably can all agree on.
Godzilla cards having different names was a step thats a bit too far (as the card is mainly the "official" name, and then you put an artificial fan-name on it, just like people call Dark Confidant "Bob" and everyone knows what card that is, no reason to actually put "Bob" as the cards name on it).
----
If all the cards in a Commander precon are reprints and they come with Warhammer art, cool, that will only put something in the system that is good and a net positive, as people that dont like it can just play the regular magic version and everyone is fine.
If a card has no regular Magic version, it dilutes the game, and WotC themselves acknowledge the Vorthos kind of player, and it hurts them the most.
Most people wont really care, maybe a little bit, but its just a drop of stupidity on the greater picture (but like always, WotC has a very real tendency to overdue their new ideas to a point they drive the cow into the pit, so the product line gets dropped and replaced by their new idea that catches fire ... thats simply not a long term sustainable business practice, and it shows in the value of the cards of new sets, which plummet like rocks).
----
All kitchen table players couldnt care less about the $ value of a card, just print your proxy cards in color and you are ready to go, without spending anything (beyond minimal material cost).
Thats all on you.
If you want a collectable real card, thats not free, the value comes with a meaning of appreciation as well.
Some people worked hard for their decks, took them years to finish a Commander deck, get that expensive cards, and they are rightfully proud of their accomplishments.
If someone works a extra job to pay for some Magic cards, they will have a much much bigger connection to these cards.
If you trade with good friends and you remember who you got a card from, it has a personal meaning.
Too many dont give a damn about anything of that anymore, they order cards online from people they never meet, they play a completely different game in that regard.
Just because someone wants a full deck "right now" and do nothing for it, get everything for free, thats a cancerous mindset to begin with and way too many have fallen for that.
People get a single expensive card for Christmas they wish for and they damn well LOVE that card for it (beside being a investment into a card that most likely just gets more expensive).
Children that play Magic and have a very strict budget will appreciate their cards more.
Especially today, a lot of kids play Magic because their parents play Magic, that kind of connection to a game is very real, and its something that a company like WotC should appreciate and promote ; but they do not ...
I generally find that Brian, as a self-aggrandizing petulant entitled prick, is not a good endorsement to have for your side of a discussion :/
So you don't have a rebuttal to any of the points made, but instead chose to insult him? Wow, great debate strategy there. Weird how it's the "it's okay for people to like things" people that always seem to insult others the most.
UB will bring more players into the game, and make WotC more money so that they can pay the people who make this game we all love. You don't have to like it, and you don't have to buy it, but a lot of people will and there's nothing wrong with that.
Okay, but if people are allowed to like it then others are allowed to not like it. Will these bring in more players equal to those that will play less or will these only bring in collectors? You made this argument before, but couldn't back it up.
Also, the idea that people can't debate on the negative aspects of something just because "others like it" is pure logical fallacy.
Also also, a lot of things that are bad for people are or have been popular. Smoking, drugs, fast food, gambling, drinking, and more. Based on your logic we can't say anything bad about them since people like them.
Also, I see alot of people assuming that these UE sets will be Standard or Modern legal. Since when has a supplemental product (barring Modern Horizons) been Standard or Modern legal? So until they come out and say that the winter set is going to be a Disney/Pixar Collaboration and legal in Standard then I'm not going to fret about it.
I say it will happen eventually as if these make enough money why wouldn't WotC do it? Every video game studio says that microtransactions won't impact the game, but then suddenly there's a ton of "convenience" boosts to help skip past the game or other aspects. We are definitely seeing video game industry sales tactics being thrown into Magic.
We are already seeing the comparisons. Secret Lairs are akin to one time special skins that go away. These IP crossovers are just more of the same, special units(cards) that you can only get one time and never again and unlikely to ever see in any other form (functional reprints.)
When a company starts something that makes them money they will absolutely continue to push the envelope, we've seen this slippery slope before and industries have no problem lubing it up to go faster down it to squeeze every last penny out of people. To them it's not about making money, it's about making all of the money.
Lastly, again, I stress that the majority of Magic players are kitchen table players. They arent browsing forums or getting into arguments over what one Youtuber's opinion on the health of the game is or whether or not crossover sets are going to kill the game.
You actually believe that people that love the game don't go on the internet to talk about it with others? Really? Why do I not believe you?
Having a conversation about something is not terrible, not sure why you think it is. Let me guess, based on your "he thinks it will kill the game" that you didn't see the video. (Hint: he doesn't say it will die, but it's cool you tried arguing it while being ignorant to what he said.)
I reiterate Maro's saying about NOT EVERY MAGIC PRODUCT IS FOR EVERYONE! Like this Time Spiral Remastered set. There are a ton of people that are gonna be excited for sought after reprints, or nostalgia for the Time Spiral block. I could care less. Am I suddenly going to tell people they cant play with cards if they came from Time Spiral Remastered?
People may not like Time Spiral Remastered as they've been through that experience, in no way is your strawman of "that reprint set is not allowed" going to happen.
The idea that "every set isn't for everyone" is a fair argument, but that doesn't mean that each one is spared criticism because......reasons. The game is consistently becoming less and less for certain people thanks to constant overpowered cards breaking the game which bring about constant bannings, showing they understand game balance less and less now, product coming out at a machine gun pace, and more. It's understandable why some who have been in the game for two decades are irritated by these recent changes.
And before you idiots start a witch hunt about "well those cards arent mechanically unique or breaking the IP that is Magic" I will have tou know that I currently have several EDH decks that I have commissioned custom arts for the Commanders because I LIKE the idea of a crossover in Magic! I dont sweat over FNM or local tournaments. I play the game to mostly have fun and to EXPRESS MYSELF. If these IP crossovers make it easier for me or anyone else to do that while bringing more lifeblood into the game with more casual kitchen table players, I am okay with that.
Not sure what you doing something to your own property has to do with this specifically, but that's cool. No one is trying to stop you from expressing yourself. No one is saying you can't change your cards how you want. At all.
If a person wants to play with UB in Commander or in a causal game, I don’t see any problems with that. What’s the issue?
Some may have an issue with it, and if you do or don't have an issue with these are on you. Problem is these may very well affect constructed tournaments with Vintage and Legacy, then we have these likely creating an IP Reserved List, licensing issues where these might be banned just because they don't have the license, and down the road likely entering Standard/Modern sets as they get popular.
There is a myriad of issues to start with and could easily lead to more later.
If someone wants to play with these cards, great. That's cool for them, they can enjoy it, but if someone doesn't want to play against it that's their decision too. Personally, I may go after that person in that Commander game specifically, but that's me.
There's definitely a lot of potential with this but Universes Beyond pretty much confirms that the MTG lore itself is in uncharted territory.
What would be the potential here? I'm not seeing any that's not just even more product. Even if they picked an IP to do a crossover of this doesn't make me want to spend more, it only makes me want to spend less by buying a few singles of the ones I enjoy, if that.
Not every product is for everyone doesn't mean everyone doesn't get a product. If Wizards hasn't produced something recently that satisfies you, maybe you should look inwardly.
Not every product is for everyone doesn't mean everyone doesn't get a product. If Wizards hasn't produced something recently that satisfies you, maybe you should look inwardly.
Why would they have to look inward if they don't like something? It doesn't mean something is wrong with them that they need to solve.
Not every product is for everyone doesn't mean everyone doesn't get a product. If Wizards hasn't produced something recently that satisfies you, maybe you should look inwardly.
Why would they have to look inward if they don't like something? It doesn't mean something is wrong with them that they need to solve.
There's a big difference between not liking something and not liking anything. If all of Magic is this problematic for a given person right now, when they're churning out so many different things, that person may want to reevaluate their relationship with the game.
There's definitely a lot of potential with this but Universes Beyond pretty much confirms that the MTG lore itself is in uncharted territory.
What would be the potential here? I'm not seeing any that's not just even more product. Even if they picked an IP to do a crossover of this doesn't make me want to spend more, it only makes me want to spend less by buying a few singles of the ones I enjoy, if that.
I figured the potential would be in what IP Crossovers would be a home run (like Godzilla in Ikoria for example) compared to those that aren't which is what worries some people. No sense bringing in an IP that only a small percentage of people care about as opposed to an IP that most people can get themselves behind.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
America Bless Christ Jesus
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
There's a big difference between not liking something and not liking anything. If all of Magic is this problematic for a given person right now, when they're churning out so many different things, that person may want to reevaluate their relationship with the game.
I don't believe the issue was enjoying Magic at all, but rather not enjoying various aspects of the game as of late.
Yes, that's what happens when someone makes a terrible comparison between two things with no other similarities.
Is it terrible? The argument was that something popular doesn't mean it's good. Those vices were listed as examples of that, and there are many others. Smoking comes to mind, it being popular to a point where it was over a third of the U.S. didn't mean it was good for you. In media bad movies/television have made plenty of money (the "live action" Lion King for example.)
The point of the argument was that just because something is popular doesn't mean it has quality, all it means is that people are willing to buy it. The opposite is also true, something that doesn't make money isn't necessarily bad.
I figured the potential would be in what IP Crossovers would be a home run (like Godzilla in Ikoria for example) compared to those that aren't which is what worries some people. No sense bringing in an IP that only a small percentage of people care about as opposed to an IP that most people can get themselves behind.
To be fair the Godzilla cards were more of a home run as they were just alternate art version of cards that someone could get cheaper elsewhere. These on the other hand will be mechanically special and harder to reprint in the future, unless a slew of functional reprints are made. While some didn't like that Godzilla cards, and that's okay, I was fine with them for what they were, promos.
The Professor talks about this, if these were Godzilla esque cards no one would have had a problem with these, comparatively, and these could have been easily skipped to find the real cards. By making these mechanically special you can't ignore these if they happen to improve your competitive deck(s) and that's part of where the problem lies. Many don't want to play with Gandalf in Magic, they want to play with Magic characters or creatures.
I figured the potential would be in what IP Crossovers would be a home run (like Godzilla in Ikoria for example) compared to those that aren't which is what worries some people. No sense bringing in an IP that only a small percentage of people care about as opposed to an IP that most people can get themselves behind.
To be fair the Godzilla cards were more of a home run as they were just alternate art version of cards that someone could get cheaper elsewhere. These on the other hand will be mechanically special and harder to reprint in the future, unless a slew of functional reprints are made. While some didn't like that Godzilla cards, and that's okay, I was fine with them for what they were, promos.
The Professor talks about this, if these were Godzilla esque cards no one would have had a problem with these, comparatively, and these could have been easily skipped to find the real cards. By making these mechanically special you can't ignore these if they happen to improve your competitive deck(s) and that's part of where the problem lies. Many don't want to play with Gandalf in Magic, they want to play with Magic characters or creatures.
If the cards are mechanically special then why not design regular MTG cards based on them so that there's two versions, one that's the actual IP Crossover card and the other being a regular MTG card? Mark Rosewater actually hinted about this on his Blogatog awhile back though apparently Wizards of the Coast / Hasbro never bothered to release regular MTG versions of The Walking Dead Secret Lair cards or maybe they're actually coming down the pipeline like how they teased the first printings of cards in Future Sight that eventually got reprints such as Aven Mindcensor and Horizon Canopy which is still the most expensive card based on it's land cycle alone compared to how expensive Fetches are like Misty Rainforest and Scalding Tarn.
I guess this also begs the question, will we receive regular MTG cards based on mechanically special designed cards for Warhammer 40k, Lord of the Rings, and other IP Crossovers in Universes Beyond? That at least should be something that Wizards of the Coast / Hasbro needs to look into at least for those who still want the classic aesthetic of the game left intact, after all the game is called "Magic: The Gathering" not "Magic: The Licensing". They might not owe us anything but it's something that we can both agree on that benefits both sides of the aisle. Wizards of the Coast has already done enough for Hasbro so why not support the MTG community more for a change? The ongoing pandemic was probably the wake up call they needed.
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
I don't believe the issue was enjoying Magic at all, but rather not enjoying various aspects of the game as of late.
He was literally complaining about not getting his own toys, because WotC "caters only to fringe sub-groups." Imagine trying to convince someone that the world's larges pizza chain should only make pizzas that everyone enjoys, and then be upset that another patron ordered toppings that you don't like. I would ask: do they also make a pizza that you find palatable, and if not, why the heck are you still ordering from them?
Quote from Dontrike »
Is it terrible?
Unequivocally and without reservation, yes. Yes it is. It's about the most egregious red herring fallacy I've ever seen. Drugs are bad for reasons that extend beyond how well they sell or how popular they are; there are severe biological, cultural, legal, moral, and political implications, and I honestly never thought I would have to explain why drugs are bad just to disabuse someone on the internet of the notion that they have any remote comparison to cardboard.
Here is the problem with telling me "I'm not saying that you cant play UB cards just that I'm not going to play them with you." I am an AVID fan of the Silver Bordered sets. So much so, that annually I purchase the Holiday promos from ebay as well as any peripheral silver Bordered product (Ponies: the Galloping. Unsanctioned) to add to my collection. I regularly have sleeved up a Silver Bordered EDH deck that I used to bring to my local game group. I would find that every so often, I would come across one rando in the group that would rather not play with silver-bordered cards and when I rose to the occasion by bringing out a regular commander deck, that random player ended up using his WhaleCash.dec to beat the pod before many of us had begun to start doing anything. Later, in a subsequent game with this particular person, when one of his huge plays was on the receiving end of a very inexpensive disruption he proceeded to salt until we talked him into not throwing the game but continuing to play where he eventually got his gas back and yet again, WhaleCash.dec won the game. Again.
This is not to say that EVERY person that refuses to play with silver Bordered cards is a self-absorbed jerk that just wants to feel good about his huge... investment/compensation, but what that unfairly leads me to want to do is keep a spare cEDH deck to bring to those games as a comparable alternative. I want a good casual game as much as anyone else but when I am not only told what I can play in a game or not (the alternative being to sit there while everyone finishes their 1.5+ hour long game to wait for a reshuffle in the pods that allows me to play what I came there to play, or alternatively that I waste a trip to my LGS expecting to share the fun of a deck that I built that /I/ feel awesome about but cant share with anyone because they refuse to play with my silver Bordered cards) what that says to me is "Why did I bother purchasing cards that noone will let me play?"
Take that silver-bordered situation and apply it to UE cards. Someone who may NOT be ingrained in the local playgroup suddenly arrives hoping to play with their Gandalf EDH deck (I'm not even gonna TRY to fight with you about Legacy/Vintage since the bar for entry is "Whales Only" already anyways) and then told that they cant play with it [in that playgroup], a deck they just spent money purchasing singles at that very same LGS to put into their newly created deck. "Well, I suppose I've got this other deck though it's kinda just out of the box. I havent changed it very much." Sits down and faces 3 fully tuned EDH decks (not even cEDH. Regular well put-together decks can be JUST as explosive/daunting to players with an underperforming deck). They have a bad experience and now they wonder why they put money 1st) into new cards for a deck that is automatically eschewed at their LGS and 2nd) into this game at all when it's full of angry nerds that appear to be inclusive and not welcoming.
This is also a bit of an egregious "what-if?" scenario since in general, most EDH groups I've played with are okay with alot as long as you dont sit down with your completely proxy cEDH deck and win consistently on turn 2. Still, the outcry on these cards leads me to believe that I would be ASHAMED to be a part of your playgroups.
Reminds me of a time that my friend ALMOST put Magic back down again recently. Went to his LGS after a long hiatus and purchased a couple of cards for his deck from the store's binders. Sat down to one of the only people that looked to be playing EDH that evening and presented himself with a "Hey, I've been out of the game for a little bit and my deck is not be super fast. Take it easy on me?" To which the guy told him "Yeah, I've got a pretty slow deck too." They proceeded to play a few turns in which his opponent clearly lied about the speed of his deck, and then no lie, turns to his disinterested neighbor and declared "Dude! I'm about to [F-word] this dude up!" And proceeded to combo out and CONTINUED comboing out even though he was clearly in a position to win but proceeded to goldfish anyways, when my friend started to pack his deck up. And the guy turned to him and said "Why do you gotta be salty like that? What's your problem?"
THIS happened and it didnt even involve restricted cards. THIS is what I imagine casual players with their LotR sets and whatever other UE cards in their various decks will be putting up with when people declare that they refuse to play with UE. I mean, maybe I'm worried over nothing. Maybe there will even be UE groups that REFUSE to play against people that have ABUR Dual lands in their decks. In fact, I think with the possible exception of this sweet lady in my old EDH group that's gonna be a new personal for me. Restrict my cards? I'll restrict yours out of spite. Oh, does that mean that you cant play in my playgroup? Oh well, go cry in the corner n00b. Noone cares.
If the cards are mechanically special then why not design regular MTG cards based on them so that there's two versions, one that's the actual IP Crossover card and the other being a regular MTG card?
There can be MTG cards made of them, that is true. Nothing is stopping them from doing so, but a few of the potential problems they will make it harder.
Mark Rosewater actually hinted about this on his Blogatog awhile back though apparently Wizards of the Coast / Hasbro never bothered to release regular MTG versions of The Walking Dead Secret Lair cards or maybe they're actually coming down the pipeline like how they teased the first printings of cards in Future Sight that eventually got reprints such as Aven Mindcensor and Horizon Canopy which is still the most expensive card based on it's land cycle alone compared to how expensive Fetches are like Misty Rainforest and Scalding Tarn.
They have stated that TWD cards will get real Magic versions eventually, but honestly I don't think that they are coming soon, if at all. I believe they discussed doing them as Godzilla versions initially, but chose not to for some such reason or another. Personally, I believe it is because they had no idea what those future Magic cards would be and decided to dip a toe into this cross IP stuff before diving right into the Scrooge McDuck vault of money. We even know one Godzilla card that has yet to have it's actual Magic version with Godzilla, King of the Monsters (Zilortha, Strength Incarnate). It's been near a year since then and Zilortha has yet to be released and I doubt it will be any time soon or in anything that's not a Secret Lair.
For me I don't think it's likely we'll be seeing some of the better cards of TWD, LotR, or 40k functional reprints, as it would allow people to wait for those cards and spend less on other products down in the future. They want these to sell as the only way to get super specific cards, creating yet another Reserved List.
I guess this also begs the question, will we receive regular MTG cards based on mechanically special designed cards for Warhammer 40k, Lord of the Rings, and other IP Crossovers in Universes Beyond?
I believe for some of the less good cards, or the plain bad ones, we will see functional reprints, but the must have ones that rock Vintage, Legacy, and/or EDH? Those ones will be relegated to the Mystery Reserved List that will take 5+ years to get one where it shows up in a $10+/pack supplementary set, a $50 Secret Lair, or a $200+ Mythic Collection, or on the IP Reserved List where it will never see the light of day again like Alpha duals or Thunder Spirit.
That at least should be something that Wizards of the Coast / Hasbro needs to look into at least for those who still want the classic aesthetic of the game left intact, after all the game is called "Magic: The Gathering" not "Magic: The Licensing". They might not owe us anything but it's something that we can both agree on that benefits both sides of the aisle. Wizards of the Coast has already done enough for Hasbro so why not support the MTG community more for a change? The ongoing pandemic was probably the wake up call they needed.
I can fully agree that focusing more on Magic should be their priority, the game's balance has been thrown out of whack the last two years, bannings are through the roof, products are low quality (either value or physical card stock), their customer service has been rumored to be terrible, foils are bend the moment you open the product, and more.
He was literally complaining about not getting his own toys, because WotC "caters only to fringe sub-groups." Imagine trying to convince someone that the world's larges pizza chain should only make pizzas that everyone enjoys, and then be upset that another patron ordered toppings that you don't like. I would ask: do they also make a pizza that you find palatable, and if not, why the heck are you still ordering from them?
Pizza places literally try and make something that as many people as possible can enjoy, that's pretty much the point of anyone making a product, especially food. Also, people complain about toppings someone else orders all the time, usually because they share the pizza.
Pizza was probably the worst choice you could make trying to argue the "product isn't made for everyone" kind of thing.
In fact if we went with that analogy where Magic is the pizza then someone adding toppings you don't enjoy to the thing you do enjoy would get a complaint from anyone. If you like pepperoni, sausage, and mushroom, but someone wants to add pineapple and sardines (40k & LotR) to it why wouldn't you complain?
As for the "niche products", well that's because WotC has been doing that more and more over the years. Of course they are not strictly doing that, but they are doing it more. Secret Lairs, Mythic Collections, Brawl, board game deck sets (Explorers of Ixalan/Game Night), TWD, and now 40Kommander and LotR. LotR and 40k are not for everyone, not every person that plays Magic likes or wants to play with those IPs, these products are specifically targeting that particular demographic while at the same time trying to make those who don't still get those cards since they are mechanically different.
Seems like to me they should be trying to make Magic more fun for those that enjoy it, and pull people in, rather than just trying to get more collectors.
Unequivocally and without reservation, yes. Yes it is. It's about the most egregious red herring fallacy I've ever seen. Drugs are bad for reasons that extend beyond how well they sell or how popular they are; there are severe biological, cultural, legal, moral, and political implications, and I honestly never thought I would have to explain why drugs are bad just to disabuse someone on the internet of the notion that they have any remote comparison to cardboard.
And Magic could trigger the part of the brain that loot boxes and gambling does, it isn't as far off as one would think from any of those as you may think. Heck, card boosters were some of the first loot boxes.
If you want we can compare it to poor movies that made a ton of money, is that better? The Lion King remake is a bad thing that made money. Lead paint was popular too. Asbestos. Smoking. There are dozens to pick from when it comes to the "popular, but not good" category. You yourself chose the wrong thing to make an example of, but I'm not lambasting you for it. Perhaps calm down and try again.
I personally hated TWD Secret Lair, but I also wanted to run Rick because I have a tribal humans Morophon deck, and he's the best human lord they've printed. For a while it made me really salty, and I felt trapped between two bad outcomes. They always say, "in commander you don't need every card," but it still feels bad when they made a card that mechanically fits your deck but goes against the look and feel of the game that you love. But then I just bought a magic themed proxy which was both less expensive and better looking. Now I run the card mechanically but it doesn't take me out of the world of Magic. Problem solved.
I'm not happy about this direction for the game, but I also think everyone should play with what they want, however they want. TWD? sure. Proxies? sure. The only thing that will determine if I play with you is if you're fun to play with. I'm not going to judge anyone. I also think we should keep an open mind. I'm a huge LotR fan. I wish they were NOT making a crossover, but they are, so at least I should stay positive for now. Maybe it'll be awesome!
Also, I see alot of people assuming that these UE sets will be Standard or Modern legal. Since when has a supplemental product (barring Modern Horizons) been Standard or Modern legal? So until they come out and say that the winter set is going to be a Disney/Pixar Collaboration and legal in Standard then I'm not going to fret about it.
WOTC has said these will never be standard legal, so I'll take them on their word, at least in the short term. However, they also initially said MUB wouldn't be Modern legal, then immediately walked that back, meaning they want to leave the door open and will certainly make these modern legal if they think it will make them money.
I personally hated TWD Secret Lair, but I also wanted to run Rick because I have a tribal humans Morophon deck, and he's the best human lord they've printed. For a while it made me really salty, and I felt trapped between two bad outcomes. They always say, "in commander you don't need every card," but it still feels bad when they made a card that mechanically fits your deck but goes against the look and feel of the game that you love. But then I just bought a magic themed proxy which was both less expensive and better looking. Now I run the card mechanically but it doesn't take me out of the world of Magic. Problem solved.
I'm not happy about this direction for the game, but I also think everyone should play with what they want, however they want. TWD? sure. Proxies? sure. The only thing that will determine if I play with you is if you're fun to play with. I'm not going to judge anyone. I also think we should keep an open mind. I'm a huge LotR fan. I wish they were NOT making a crossover, but they are, so at least I should stay positive for now. Maybe it'll be awesome!
Thank you for this. This gives me hope that there are some people out there that dont care for this new direction in Magic but will still be welcoming of people who have invested in those sets for the most important reason of all: to have fun.
I keep bringing up my UNEDH deck because it's an experience. In bringing my UNEDH to my LGS Commander group (I miss you guys!) Its become something that I'm associated with and its actively looked forward to. I've played with people that have heard of my deck through word of mouth and the shared joy that they get from being in the same nonsensical game with me warms me to my core.
Does this mean that I ALWAYS want to play with my UNEDH deck? No. I have a great many EDH decks that I have built to cater to my whims and fancies. Decks that go hard and win in 2-3 turns with a proper setup, decks that I've copied to see if I like a particular Commander or not. Decks that Ive painstakingly combed the extensive database of cards to find the right themed cards (Xira Arien nonhumanoid insect tribal, or Queen Marchess Monarchy for example) and I have just as much fun with those "pure" Magic games as I do with the UNEDH deck.
I think the problem that I have with the negative backlash this is getting is that it feels like people are prejudiced against these without even knowing what they are about yet, based off of market speculation, based off of gut reactions and it makes me worry that because of these prejudices that people will refuse to give them a shot and just condemn them, dead in the water,
Does everyone like playing with my UNEDH deck? Of course not. But I commend those that give it a shot rather than just refusing to play with it on prejudice alone. Its dividing and alot of the prejudices are based on negative perceptions they may have had about them. It still rakes me over the coals with that one guy saying "I dont want to be forced to do the hokey pokey or any of that [s-word]" Yeah, uh... that's not how those cards work! And that long convoluted "what-if" scenario that involves Mirrorweave, Blacker Lotus, and Mindslaver that "allows" you to shred your opponents Magic deck is like trying to skydive without a parachute and live: it's highly unlikely that you'll succeed but if you do, you're probably gonna end up with a whole mess of broken bones for the attempt.
Pizza places literally try and make something that as many people as possible can enjoy, that's pretty much the point of anyone making a product, especially food.
No, pizza places make at least one thing for everyone, not everything for everyone. There's a difference, which I hope should be obvious (considering that was my original point). If every pizza ever marketed needed to have universal appeal in order to be sold, it would be physically impossible to cater to anyone - even plain cheese pizza would be rejected by certain groups.
What formats do you play? Did WotC not put out any products in the past ~1-2 years that contributes to those formats?
Quote from Dontrike »
Also, people complain about toppings someone else orders all the time, usually because they share the pizza.
Uh, sure. How often do they complain about what someone living in another state is ordering?
Quote from Dontrike »
Pizza was probably the worst choice you could make trying to argue the "product isn't made for everyone" kind of thing.
I don't think you understood my original point, or else the comparison should make more sense (see just above).
Pizza is the perfect metaphor for a group activity which requires either consent or compromise from all members, just like every EDH playgroup. If there's a part of one pizza you don't enjoy, there's nothing wrong with getting another - or not participating altogether, if pizza in general is sounding less and less appetizing. Looking inwardly doesn't mean you have some conspicuous personal issue, it just means it might be time to reevaluate your preferences and priorities.
Quote from Dontrike »
And Magic could trigger the part of the brain that loot boxes and gambling does, it isn't as far off as one would think from any of those as you may think. Heck, card boosters were some of the first loot boxes.
If you want we can compare it to poor movies that made a ton of money, is that better? The Lion King remake is a bad thing that made money. Lead paint was popular too. Asbestos. Smoking. There are dozens to pick from when it comes to the "popular, but not good" category.
*sigh*
A thing is neither inherently good nor bad by virtue of a characteristic like "it can be bought or sold." There are reasons to judge a thing, but this is not one of those reasons, and has absolutely no attachment to the judgments we actually do make about the very real and tangible consequences of something like drug use. If you're going to analyze them in terms of salability, that's a fine apples-to-apples comparison; to attach the same level of moral gravity because of another shared, but otherwise unrelated, characteristic is a red herring.
If there are reasons why UB is a bad thing - and I feel there are - then we can and should talk about those in rational terms, but the poster I quoted was making an obvious attempt to transitively assign negative qualities to UB based on the fact that he doesn't like them, not because of anything factually relevant. Hence, a fallacy.
Quote from Dontrike »
You yourself chose the wrong thing to make an example of, but I'm not lambasting you for it. Perhaps calm down and try again.
I really don't feel that I did, but also: was this last part truly necessary?
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
Nobody is saying that though.
All people are saying is "If you play UB I might not play with you or not play a second match with you."
And you know, if you would say that to me about Time Spiral Remastered cards? Sure. That's fair. I wouldn't be mad, because you are free to play and not play what you want. The idea of being entitled to playing with a specific person literally never crossed my mind before this thread.
I don't know why you guys keep having to twist "I don't want to play this" into "I tell people they can't play this" in order to make people who don't like UB look like unreasonable ********s. It's almost as if there is no good moral/ethical argument against not wanting to play UB.
---
#BLM
#DefundThePolice
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
Well, thats a fundamental problem in Magic right now, the amount of products that cater only to a fringe sub-group, instead of producing a coherent product that everyone can enjoy.
Magic products should be for everyone.
To intentionally producing a product you know that some will outright dislike (and not by accident, but intentionally) is downright bogus, as its completely artificially and counterproductive.
The entire point of "Magic products are not for everyone" should at best be an optional part.
So a card exists in several artwork, pick one you like, you have the choice.
If the choice becomes just "Buy this or dont" and you get a kick in the nuts for good measure too, which customer is serving that kind of business practice?
Its splitting the customer base intentionally into camps, instead of bringing anybody together.
And the real irony is that they have already ways that work well.
Extra artwork in booster packs, great, nobody "complains" about that kind of stuff, as they can always choose whatever they enjoy.
Taking that choice away by only providing 1 option and then making that card important for a format is downright destructive, intentionally bad business practice, not an accident, but doing harm to the community with intention ... and thats just stupidity at best, or sabotage by incompetence.
The idea of bringing more artwork to the game is great, everyone welcomes that, as long as they have a choice, perfect, nobody is put in a corner, thats basically something we probably can all agree on.
Godzilla cards having different names was a step thats a bit too far (as the card is mainly the "official" name, and then you put an artificial fan-name on it, just like people call Dark Confidant "Bob" and everyone knows what card that is, no reason to actually put "Bob" as the cards name on it).
----
If all the cards in a Commander precon are reprints and they come with Warhammer art, cool, that will only put something in the system that is good and a net positive, as people that dont like it can just play the regular magic version and everyone is fine.
If a card has no regular Magic version, it dilutes the game, and WotC themselves acknowledge the Vorthos kind of player, and it hurts them the most.
Most people wont really care, maybe a little bit, but its just a drop of stupidity on the greater picture (but like always, WotC has a very real tendency to overdue their new ideas to a point they drive the cow into the pit, so the product line gets dropped and replaced by their new idea that catches fire ... thats simply not a long term sustainable business practice, and it shows in the value of the cards of new sets, which plummet like rocks).
----
All kitchen table players couldnt care less about the $ value of a card, just print your proxy cards in color and you are ready to go, without spending anything (beyond minimal material cost).
Thats all on you.
If you want a collectable real card, thats not free, the value comes with a meaning of appreciation as well.
Some people worked hard for their decks, took them years to finish a Commander deck, get that expensive cards, and they are rightfully proud of their accomplishments.
If someone works a extra job to pay for some Magic cards, they will have a much much bigger connection to these cards.
If you trade with good friends and you remember who you got a card from, it has a personal meaning.
Too many dont give a damn about anything of that anymore, they order cards online from people they never meet, they play a completely different game in that regard.
Just because someone wants a full deck "right now" and do nothing for it, get everything for free, thats a cancerous mindset to begin with and way too many have fallen for that.
People get a single expensive card for Christmas they wish for and they damn well LOVE that card for it (beside being a investment into a card that most likely just gets more expensive).
Children that play Magic and have a very strict budget will appreciate their cards more.
Especially today, a lot of kids play Magic because their parents play Magic, that kind of connection to a game is very real, and its something that a company like WotC should appreciate and promote ; but they do not ...
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
So you don't have a rebuttal to any of the points made, but instead chose to insult him? Wow, great debate strategy there. Weird how it's the "it's okay for people to like things" people that always seem to insult others the most.
Okay, but if people are allowed to like it then others are allowed to not like it. Will these bring in more players equal to those that will play less or will these only bring in collectors? You made this argument before, but couldn't back it up.
Also, the idea that people can't debate on the negative aspects of something just because "others like it" is pure logical fallacy.
Also also, a lot of things that are bad for people are or have been popular. Smoking, drugs, fast food, gambling, drinking, and more. Based on your logic we can't say anything bad about them since people like them.
That's what you took away from that?
I say it will happen eventually as if these make enough money why wouldn't WotC do it? Every video game studio says that microtransactions won't impact the game, but then suddenly there's a ton of "convenience" boosts to help skip past the game or other aspects. We are definitely seeing video game industry sales tactics being thrown into Magic.
We are already seeing the comparisons. Secret Lairs are akin to one time special skins that go away. These IP crossovers are just more of the same, special units(cards) that you can only get one time and never again and unlikely to ever see in any other form (functional reprints.)
When a company starts something that makes them money they will absolutely continue to push the envelope, we've seen this slippery slope before and industries have no problem lubing it up to go faster down it to squeeze every last penny out of people. To them it's not about making money, it's about making all of the money.
You actually believe that people that love the game don't go on the internet to talk about it with others? Really? Why do I not believe you?
Having a conversation about something is not terrible, not sure why you think it is. Let me guess, based on your "he thinks it will kill the game" that you didn't see the video. (Hint: he doesn't say it will die, but it's cool you tried arguing it while being ignorant to what he said.)
People may not like Time Spiral Remastered as they've been through that experience, in no way is your strawman of "that reprint set is not allowed" going to happen.
The idea that "every set isn't for everyone" is a fair argument, but that doesn't mean that each one is spared criticism because......reasons. The game is consistently becoming less and less for certain people thanks to constant overpowered cards breaking the game which bring about constant bannings, showing they understand game balance less and less now, product coming out at a machine gun pace, and more. It's understandable why some who have been in the game for two decades are irritated by these recent changes.
Not sure what you doing something to your own property has to do with this specifically, but that's cool. No one is trying to stop you from expressing yourself. No one is saying you can't change your cards how you want. At all.
Some may have an issue with it, and if you do or don't have an issue with these are on you. Problem is these may very well affect constructed tournaments with Vintage and Legacy, then we have these likely creating an IP Reserved List, licensing issues where these might be banned just because they don't have the license, and down the road likely entering Standard/Modern sets as they get popular.
There is a myriad of issues to start with and could easily lead to more later.
If someone wants to play with these cards, great. That's cool for them, they can enjoy it, but if someone doesn't want to play against it that's their decision too. Personally, I may go after that person in that Commander game specifically, but that's me.
What would be the potential here? I'm not seeing any that's not just even more product. Even if they picked an IP to do a crossover of this doesn't make me want to spend more, it only makes me want to spend less by buying a few singles of the ones I enjoy, if that.
Not every product is for everyone doesn't mean everyone doesn't get a product. If Wizards hasn't produced something recently that satisfies you, maybe you should look inwardly.
---
#BLM
#DefundThePolice
Why would they have to look inward if they don't like something? It doesn't mean something is wrong with them that they need to solve.
There's a big difference between not liking something and not liking anything. If all of Magic is this problematic for a given person right now, when they're churning out so many different things, that person may want to reevaluate their relationship with the game.
Also:
Yes, that's what happens when someone makes a terrible comparison between two things with no other similarities.
---
#BLM
#DefundThePolice
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
I don't believe the issue was enjoying Magic at all, but rather not enjoying various aspects of the game as of late.
Is it terrible? The argument was that something popular doesn't mean it's good. Those vices were listed as examples of that, and there are many others. Smoking comes to mind, it being popular to a point where it was over a third of the U.S. didn't mean it was good for you. In media bad movies/television have made plenty of money (the "live action" Lion King for example.)
The point of the argument was that just because something is popular doesn't mean it has quality, all it means is that people are willing to buy it. The opposite is also true, something that doesn't make money isn't necessarily bad.
To be fair the Godzilla cards were more of a home run as they were just alternate art version of cards that someone could get cheaper elsewhere. These on the other hand will be mechanically special and harder to reprint in the future, unless a slew of functional reprints are made. While some didn't like that Godzilla cards, and that's okay, I was fine with them for what they were, promos.
The Professor talks about this, if these were Godzilla esque cards no one would have had a problem with these, comparatively, and these could have been easily skipped to find the real cards. By making these mechanically special you can't ignore these if they happen to improve your competitive deck(s) and that's part of where the problem lies. Many don't want to play with Gandalf in Magic, they want to play with Magic characters or creatures.
I guess this also begs the question, will we receive regular MTG cards based on mechanically special designed cards for Warhammer 40k, Lord of the Rings, and other IP Crossovers in Universes Beyond? That at least should be something that Wizards of the Coast / Hasbro needs to look into at least for those who still want the classic aesthetic of the game left intact, after all the game is called "Magic: The Gathering" not "Magic: The Licensing". They might not owe us anything but it's something that we can both agree on that benefits both sides of the aisle. Wizards of the Coast has already done enough for Hasbro so why not support the MTG community more for a change? The ongoing pandemic was probably the wake up call they needed.
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
He was literally complaining about not getting his own toys, because WotC "caters only to fringe sub-groups." Imagine trying to convince someone that the world's larges pizza chain should only make pizzas that everyone enjoys, and then be upset that another patron ordered toppings that you don't like. I would ask: do they also make a pizza that you find palatable, and if not, why the heck are you still ordering from them?
Unequivocally and without reservation, yes. Yes it is. It's about the most egregious red herring fallacy I've ever seen. Drugs are bad for reasons that extend beyond how well they sell or how popular they are; there are severe biological, cultural, legal, moral, and political implications, and I honestly never thought I would have to explain why drugs are bad just to disabuse someone on the internet of the notion that they have any remote comparison to cardboard.
---
#BLM
#DefundThePolice
This is not to say that EVERY person that refuses to play with silver Bordered cards is a self-absorbed jerk that just wants to feel good about his huge... investment/compensation, but what that unfairly leads me to want to do is keep a spare cEDH deck to bring to those games as a comparable alternative. I want a good casual game as much as anyone else but when I am not only told what I can play in a game or not (the alternative being to sit there while everyone finishes their 1.5+ hour long game to wait for a reshuffle in the pods that allows me to play what I came there to play, or alternatively that I waste a trip to my LGS expecting to share the fun of a deck that I built that /I/ feel awesome about but cant share with anyone because they refuse to play with my silver Bordered cards) what that says to me is "Why did I bother purchasing cards that noone will let me play?"
Take that silver-bordered situation and apply it to UE cards. Someone who may NOT be ingrained in the local playgroup suddenly arrives hoping to play with their Gandalf EDH deck (I'm not even gonna TRY to fight with you about Legacy/Vintage since the bar for entry is "Whales Only" already anyways) and then told that they cant play with it [in that playgroup], a deck they just spent money purchasing singles at that very same LGS to put into their newly created deck. "Well, I suppose I've got this other deck though it's kinda just out of the box. I havent changed it very much." Sits down and faces 3 fully tuned EDH decks (not even cEDH. Regular well put-together decks can be JUST as explosive/daunting to players with an underperforming deck). They have a bad experience and now they wonder why they put money 1st) into new cards for a deck that is automatically eschewed at their LGS and 2nd) into this game at all when it's full of angry nerds that appear to be inclusive and not welcoming.
This is also a bit of an egregious "what-if?" scenario since in general, most EDH groups I've played with are okay with alot as long as you dont sit down with your completely proxy cEDH deck and win consistently on turn 2. Still, the outcry on these cards leads me to believe that I would be ASHAMED to be a part of your playgroups.
Reminds me of a time that my friend ALMOST put Magic back down again recently. Went to his LGS after a long hiatus and purchased a couple of cards for his deck from the store's binders. Sat down to one of the only people that looked to be playing EDH that evening and presented himself with a "Hey, I've been out of the game for a little bit and my deck is not be super fast. Take it easy on me?" To which the guy told him "Yeah, I've got a pretty slow deck too." They proceeded to play a few turns in which his opponent clearly lied about the speed of his deck, and then no lie, turns to his disinterested neighbor and declared "Dude! I'm about to [F-word] this dude up!" And proceeded to combo out and CONTINUED comboing out even though he was clearly in a position to win but proceeded to goldfish anyways, when my friend started to pack his deck up. And the guy turned to him and said "Why do you gotta be salty like that? What's your problem?"
THIS happened and it didnt even involve restricted cards. THIS is what I imagine casual players with their LotR sets and whatever other UE cards in their various decks will be putting up with when people declare that they refuse to play with UE. I mean, maybe I'm worried over nothing. Maybe there will even be UE groups that REFUSE to play against people that have ABUR Dual lands in their decks. In fact, I think with the possible exception of this sweet lady in my old EDH group that's gonna be a new personal for me. Restrict my cards? I'll restrict yours out of spite. Oh, does that mean that you cant play in my playgroup? Oh well, go cry in the corner n00b. Noone cares.
There can be MTG cards made of them, that is true. Nothing is stopping them from doing so, but a few of the potential problems they will make it harder.
They have stated that TWD cards will get real Magic versions eventually, but honestly I don't think that they are coming soon, if at all. I believe they discussed doing them as Godzilla versions initially, but chose not to for some such reason or another. Personally, I believe it is because they had no idea what those future Magic cards would be and decided to dip a toe into this cross IP stuff before diving right into the Scrooge McDuck vault of money. We even know one Godzilla card that has yet to have it's actual Magic version with Godzilla, King of the Monsters (Zilortha, Strength Incarnate). It's been near a year since then and Zilortha has yet to be released and I doubt it will be any time soon or in anything that's not a Secret Lair.
For me I don't think it's likely we'll be seeing some of the better cards of TWD, LotR, or 40k functional reprints, as it would allow people to wait for those cards and spend less on other products down in the future. They want these to sell as the only way to get super specific cards, creating yet another Reserved List.
I believe for some of the less good cards, or the plain bad ones, we will see functional reprints, but the must have ones that rock Vintage, Legacy, and/or EDH? Those ones will be relegated to the Mystery Reserved List that will take 5+ years to get one where it shows up in a $10+/pack supplementary set, a $50 Secret Lair, or a $200+ Mythic Collection, or on the IP Reserved List where it will never see the light of day again like Alpha duals or Thunder Spirit.
I can fully agree that focusing more on Magic should be their priority, the game's balance has been thrown out of whack the last two years, bannings are through the roof, products are low quality (either value or physical card stock), their customer service has been rumored to be terrible, foils are bend the moment you open the product, and more.
Pizza places literally try and make something that as many people as possible can enjoy, that's pretty much the point of anyone making a product, especially food. Also, people complain about toppings someone else orders all the time, usually because they share the pizza.
Pizza was probably the worst choice you could make trying to argue the "product isn't made for everyone" kind of thing.
In fact if we went with that analogy where Magic is the pizza then someone adding toppings you don't enjoy to the thing you do enjoy would get a complaint from anyone. If you like pepperoni, sausage, and mushroom, but someone wants to add pineapple and sardines (40k & LotR) to it why wouldn't you complain?
As for the "niche products", well that's because WotC has been doing that more and more over the years. Of course they are not strictly doing that, but they are doing it more. Secret Lairs, Mythic Collections, Brawl, board game deck sets (Explorers of Ixalan/Game Night), TWD, and now 40Kommander and LotR. LotR and 40k are not for everyone, not every person that plays Magic likes or wants to play with those IPs, these products are specifically targeting that particular demographic while at the same time trying to make those who don't still get those cards since they are mechanically different.
Seems like to me they should be trying to make Magic more fun for those that enjoy it, and pull people in, rather than just trying to get more collectors.
And Magic could trigger the part of the brain that loot boxes and gambling does, it isn't as far off as one would think from any of those as you may think. Heck, card boosters were some of the first loot boxes.
If you want we can compare it to poor movies that made a ton of money, is that better? The Lion King remake is a bad thing that made money. Lead paint was popular too. Asbestos. Smoking. There are dozens to pick from when it comes to the "popular, but not good" category. You yourself chose the wrong thing to make an example of, but I'm not lambasting you for it. Perhaps calm down and try again.
I'm not happy about this direction for the game, but I also think everyone should play with what they want, however they want. TWD? sure. Proxies? sure. The only thing that will determine if I play with you is if you're fun to play with. I'm not going to judge anyone. I also think we should keep an open mind. I'm a huge LotR fan. I wish they were NOT making a crossover, but they are, so at least I should stay positive for now. Maybe it'll be awesome!
WOTC has said these will never be standard legal, so I'll take them on their word, at least in the short term. However, they also initially said MUB wouldn't be Modern legal, then immediately walked that back, meaning they want to leave the door open and will certainly make these modern legal if they think it will make them money.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
Thank you for this. This gives me hope that there are some people out there that dont care for this new direction in Magic but will still be welcoming of people who have invested in those sets for the most important reason of all: to have fun.
I keep bringing up my UNEDH deck because it's an experience. In bringing my UNEDH to my LGS Commander group (I miss you guys!) Its become something that I'm associated with and its actively looked forward to. I've played with people that have heard of my deck through word of mouth and the shared joy that they get from being in the same nonsensical game with me warms me to my core.
Does this mean that I ALWAYS want to play with my UNEDH deck? No. I have a great many EDH decks that I have built to cater to my whims and fancies. Decks that go hard and win in 2-3 turns with a proper setup, decks that I've copied to see if I like a particular Commander or not. Decks that Ive painstakingly combed the extensive database of cards to find the right themed cards (Xira Arien nonhumanoid insect tribal, or Queen Marchess Monarchy for example) and I have just as much fun with those "pure" Magic games as I do with the UNEDH deck.
I think the problem that I have with the negative backlash this is getting is that it feels like people are prejudiced against these without even knowing what they are about yet, based off of market speculation, based off of gut reactions and it makes me worry that because of these prejudices that people will refuse to give them a shot and just condemn them, dead in the water,
Does everyone like playing with my UNEDH deck? Of course not. But I commend those that give it a shot rather than just refusing to play with it on prejudice alone. Its dividing and alot of the prejudices are based on negative perceptions they may have had about them. It still rakes me over the coals with that one guy saying "I dont want to be forced to do the hokey pokey or any of that [s-word]" Yeah, uh... that's not how those cards work! And that long convoluted "what-if" scenario that involves Mirrorweave, Blacker Lotus, and Mindslaver that "allows" you to shred your opponents Magic deck is like trying to skydive without a parachute and live: it's highly unlikely that you'll succeed but if you do, you're probably gonna end up with a whole mess of broken bones for the attempt.
Largest wind factory on the planet.
Fully-powered 600-Card "Dream Cube" https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/dreamcube
450-Card "Artificer's Cube" https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/artificer
Cubing in Indianapolis...send me a PM!!
No, pizza places make at least one thing for everyone, not everything for everyone. There's a difference, which I hope should be obvious (considering that was my original point). If every pizza ever marketed needed to have universal appeal in order to be sold, it would be physically impossible to cater to anyone - even plain cheese pizza would be rejected by certain groups.
What formats do you play? Did WotC not put out any products in the past ~1-2 years that contributes to those formats?
Uh, sure. How often do they complain about what someone living in another state is ordering?
I don't think you understood my original point, or else the comparison should make more sense (see just above).
Pizza is the perfect metaphor for a group activity which requires either consent or compromise from all members, just like every EDH playgroup. If there's a part of one pizza you don't enjoy, there's nothing wrong with getting another - or not participating altogether, if pizza in general is sounding less and less appetizing. Looking inwardly doesn't mean you have some conspicuous personal issue, it just means it might be time to reevaluate your preferences and priorities.
*sigh*
A thing is neither inherently good nor bad by virtue of a characteristic like "it can be bought or sold." There are reasons to judge a thing, but this is not one of those reasons, and has absolutely no attachment to the judgments we actually do make about the very real and tangible consequences of something like drug use. If you're going to analyze them in terms of salability, that's a fine apples-to-apples comparison; to attach the same level of moral gravity because of another shared, but otherwise unrelated, characteristic is a red herring.
If there are reasons why UB is a bad thing - and I feel there are - then we can and should talk about those in rational terms, but the poster I quoted was making an obvious attempt to transitively assign negative qualities to UB based on the fact that he doesn't like them, not because of anything factually relevant. Hence, a fallacy.
I really don't feel that I did, but also: was this last part truly necessary?
---
#BLM
#DefundThePolice